Dumb reasons people give for not getting vaxxed thread

[ER BlueBlood]

That is just screwball. What if they wanted another doctor's therapy, a Dr named Jack...something...which is delivered through a mask, oh, and, it turns out to be CO? Or, if it was ethylene glycol or Chlorox?

I guess it's the idea of the triangle: pt and family, judge, and doctors. Only one is licensed to practice medicine.

Or, does "as a last resort" mean while they're coding him?

No clue but the hospital is still refusing to give it, good for them. I’m sure abbot will come thru next with some nonsense. The patient has been on a vent for weeks now.

As someone who attended public school K-12 I can absolutely say it was obvious to me (while being in school and now) that this country is absolutely in decline, the level of general stupidity was predictable; these folks just needed a platform to communicate with each other and now they have it. Things were safer when these *****s kept to themselves and the news came on once a day. Sigh

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[ER BlueBlood]

I’m sure when the Med school says vaccinate or drop out, he will change his mind.

I remember that comment, the kid was also bragging about being in church every week with plenty of other people and no issues etc, I’m sure he’s stocking up on Ivermectin to give to the congregation after the snake handling for Jesus session

 

[southerndoc]

Someone mentioned Chlorox. I'm sure Chlorox will kill COVID in a petri dish. So why don't we give IV Chlorox instead of ivermectin? I mean if we're going to go all out on crazy things, let's just get the medically trained judge to order the Chlorox. Drano could also help. Maybe they work synergistically.

 

[Apollyon]

"Someone"? It was 3 posts before yours!

 

[southerndoc]

"Someone"? It was 3 posts before yours!

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

I was in a shift and got a phone call and forgot who posted it. Forgive me.

 

[southerndoc]

Man I'm exhausted. I was *on* a shift, not in a shift. What in the world?

 

[ER BlueBlood]

Wow so these judge rulings are now popping up everywhere, just saw another situation in Ohio in the news. Who knew judges went to medical school (or perhaps vet school)

 

[Mount Asclepius]

I don’t see how court-ordered, unproven treatment is enforceable. If I really don’t believe a treatment is indicated, I’m not going to provide it regardless of a judicial ruling. Are they going to find physicians in contempt of court with fines or jail time if they refuse to provide court-ordered, unethical care? I’d lawyer up and sue a judge into oblivion despite any financial costs (within reason, or just resign that position) out of principle if they tried to enforce that upon me.

 

[Birdstrike]

I don’t see how court-ordered, unproven treatment is enforceable.

My understanding is that the doctors were giving up on the patient with terminal COVID, telling the family to withdraw support and let the guy die. They decide they want to try ivermectin first, as they're being told he's going to die anyways. There's nothing to lose in trying, says the family, and their pulmonologist agrees. He orders it. An administrator gets between the patient and their doctor and blocks it. The judge rules that it can be given, as ordered by the pulmonologist and agreed upon by the patient's decision makers.

I'm not saying I'm in favor of Ivermectin for COVID. I'm not. But this situation seems quite different than a judge coming out of nowhere and saying, "You. Must. Give. Ivermectin" to patients that don't want it. This seems more about patient and physician autonomy, and the right to try experimental medications in terminal disease, than ivermectin itself.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

My understanding is that the doctors were giving up on the patient with terminal COVID, telling the family to withdraw support and let the guy die. They decide they want to try ivermectin first, as they're being told he's going to die anyways. There's nothing to lose in trying, says the family, and their pulmonologist agrees. He orders it. An administrator gets between the patient and their doctor and blocks it. The judge rules that it can be given, as ordered by the pulmonologist and agreed upon by the patient's decision makers.

I'm not saying I'm in favor of Ivermectin for COVID. I'm not. But this situation seems quite different than a judge coming out of nowhere and saying, "You. Must. Give. Ivermectin" to patients that don't want it. This seems more about patient and physician autonomy, and the right to try experimental medications in terminal disease, than ivermectin itself.

Except in at least one of those Ohio cases the pulmonologist in question has not been taken care of the patient at all before the family called him and asked his opinion. It's not like the attending pulmonologist on the patient's case wanted to do this and the hospitalist refused.

 

[BAM!]

My understanding is that the doctors were giving up on the patient with terminal COVID, telling the family to withdraw support and let the guy die. They decide they want to try ivermectin first, as they're being told he's going to die anyways. There's nothing to lose in trying, says the family, and their pulmonologist agrees. He orders it. An administrator gets between the patient and their doctor and blocks it. The judge rules that it can be given, as ordered by the pulmonologist and agreed upon by the patient's decision makers.

I'm not saying I'm in favor of Ivermectin for COVID. I'm not. But this situation seems quite different than a judge coming out of nowhere and saying, "You. Must. Give. Ivermectin" to patients that don't want it. This seems more about patient and physician autonomy, and the right to try experimental medications in terminal disease, than ivermectin itself.

So if anything this is a win for physician autonomy, and a blow to administration's authority? Hurray!!...

 

[BAM!]

Except in at least one of those Ohio cases the pulmonologist in question has not been taken care of the patient at all before the family called him and asked his opinion. It's not like the attending pulmonologist on the patient's case wanted to do this and the hospitalist refused.

I see your point. Do you think that the pulmonologist on the case is trying to block the ivermectin? I would sign the case over to the ordering pulmonologist and be done with that mess.

 

[Birdstrike]

I don’t believe in Ivermectin. But in general, if I’m near death with no hope from whatever disease, throw the kitchen sink at me. I’m your guinea pig and I don’t want any clipboard wielding administrator who’s given up on me, getting between my family and any doctor trying to save my life.

 

[BAM!]

From MedMal Reviewer Newsletter:


The patient’s wife contacted an attorney who filed the following documents.

This attorney has built a reputation for filing lawsuits against hospitals to force them to give ivermectin.

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The wife’s affidavit also included further information:

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They also included several exhibits.

• News articles about 3 cases in which this lawyer forced hospitals to give ivermectin.
• Various statements from pro-ivermectin physicians.
• A few review papers and retrospective studies about ivermectin from noted advocates.

The judge reviewed the situation and ordered the hospital to give ivermectin.

​

​

The hospital continues to fight the order.


MedMalReviewer Analysis:

1. The court seems to have little power to unilaterally force a medication be given to a patient. However, if there are two physicians with differing opinions, then the court can decide between the two options.
2. It appears that the physician who wrote the prescription was contacted by the plaintiff’s attorney for this explicit purpose. He is a member of a well-known pro-ivermectin group. There is no indication that this physician ever personally saw or examined the patient in person. This may provide an avenue for the state medical board to discipline this individual.
3. The plaintiff’s document is very poorly written. It includes phrases that give away the author’s extremely poor understanding of medical subjects, such as “rip the air tube out of his esophagus”, and repeated description of FiO2 levels but no further ventilator settings.

 

[thegenius]

That is just screwball. What if they wanted another doctor's therapy, a Dr named Jack...something...which is delivered through a mask, oh, and, it turns out to be CO? Or, if it was ethylene glycol or Chlorox?

I guess it's the idea of the triangle: pt and family, judge, and doctors. Only one is licensed to practice medicine.

Or, does "as a last resort" mean while they're coding him?

Oh I'm sure the prosecution brought in their "Expert Witnesses" to testify that Ivermectin is a great treatment. It's all frocking nonsense. If I were the hospital I would be charging the family full cost for these drugs and take them to court for any unpaid balance, try to garnish wages, etc.

 

[thegenius]

I don’t see how court-ordered, unproven treatment is enforceable. If I really don’t believe a treatment is indicated, I’m not going to provide it regardless of a judicial ruling. Are they going to find physicians in contempt of court with fines or jail time if they refuse to provide court-ordered, unethical care? I’d lawyer up and sue a judge into oblivion despite any financial costs (within reason, or just resign that position) out of principle if they tried to enforce that upon me.

I'm sure that would happen. Remember I doubt it's just a judge court-ordering a treatment. He/she is hearing from "expert witnesses" brought forth by the prosecution to argue the merits of ivermectin. Which means it's a battle between "Expert Witnesses". Just tons of nonsense.

Frankly...if I were the hospital...and some guy was on the vent for two weeks for acute hypoxic respiratory failure from COVID, I would give ivermectin. I would charge the family directly if not covered by insurance. I would demand payment, and get collection agencies to round up payment for the drugs. Get a court-ordered garnishment of wages. All knowing that ivermectin will not help in this case.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I don’t believe in Ivermectin. But in general, if I’m near death with no hope from whatever disease, throw the kitchen sink at me. I’m your guinea pig and I don’t want any clipboard wielding administrator who’s given up on me, getting between my family and any doctor trying to save my life.

Cool, so why not metformin, fosamax, proscar, remicaide, and OCPs?

Sarcasm aside, I don't think its administration getting in the way of this - I think its the actual attending physicians in this case.

 

[thegenius]

From MedMal Reviewer Newsletter:


The patient’s wife contacted an attorney who filed the following documents.

This attorney has built a reputation for filing lawsuits against hospitals to force them to give ivermectin.

​

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​

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You guys read the "Statement of Facts" above? This entire case is nonsense. Nothing is going to save this guy.

 

[Neopolymath]

An FB friend of mine stated emphatically that they would not get vaccinated.

Instead of just blocking him at that point, I let my curiosity get the better of me, and so I held my snark, tried to avoid throwing facts at him to avoid triggering the cognitive dissonance, and tried to dissect out why he had this mindset.
It went something like this:

Me: Why do you feel that way.
Him: Nonsense answer

Me: But how did you come to think that way
Him: Explanation of nonsense that was more nonsensical

Me: OK, but you still haven't told me why? What are you afraid of?
Him: Semi-understandable explanation of his feeling

Me: I still don't understand what you're afraid of. [Couldn't help myself...had to explain vaccine safety protocols and what goes into an EUA]
Him: More semi-understandable stuff

Me: BUT WHAT ARE YOU AFRAID OF??
Him: Not afraid, just don't like Tony Fauci telling me what to do

So, we have a bunch of people who's rationale for not getting vaxxed is identical to that of your average hysterical 10 year old.

I unfriended him at that point. Life's too short.

I'm going to have to dig up the link, but not to long ago, an M2 student posted that they didn't want to get the vaccine because Big Pharma makes too much money and they'll have taken short cuts.

I imagine owning the libs is another reason for the anti-vax mindset and COVID denial, but I suppose there must be an easier way to own the libs than getting vented.

Literally dying to own the libs. It's poetic in some bizarre way for sure.

 

[Birdstrike]

Or, if it was ethylene glycol…?

Both the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines have polyethylene glycol in them.

 

[Apollyon]

Both the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines have polyethylene glycol in them.

That "poly" is the kicker. "Do not GoLytely into that good night" (Actually that's MiraLax)

 

[southerndoc]

I bet that if the hospital doesn't give ivermectin, and the patient dies, this same attorney will likely file a malpractice suit against the hospital.

I really hope that the medical boards and respective societies sanction these individuals making wild accusations that ivermectin helps COVID.

 

[Birdstrike]

I bet that if the hospital doesn't give ivermectin, and the patient dies, this same attorney will likely file a malpractice suit against the hospital.

If they were to sue successfully, they'd have to argue that not giving Ivermectin violates "standard of care." That would be pretty tough considering the FDA and many medical societies have made statement against ivermectin in COVID, and essentially none, in favor of it. That makes it by definition, the opposite of standard of care. On the other hand, there doesn't seem to be any limit on the stupidity of cases lawyers will file.

 

[southerndoc]

If they were to sue successfully, they'd have to argue that not giving Ivermectin violates "standard of care." That would be pretty tough considering the FDA and many medical societies have made statement against ivermectin in COVID, and essentially none, in favor of it. That makes it by definition, the opposite of standard of care. On the other hand, there doesn't seem to be any limit on the stupidity of cases lawyers will file.

All it takes is one expert witness to make the statement that it's standard of care. I'm sure someone in the FLCCC group would easily do that for the amount of money expert witnesses make.

Doesn't mean the litigation will be successful, but it would create a lot of expense and heartache among the defendants.

 

[Birdstrike]

All it takes is one expert witness to make the statement that it's standard of care. I'm sure someone in the FLCCC group would easily do that for the amount of money expert witnesses make.

Doesn't mean the litigation will be successful, but it would create a lot of expense and heartache among the defendants.

You are correct. Our system is very flawed, as is the character of many of people doing "expert witness" work. I've been a victim of frivolous hit jobs like this, twice, unfortunately.

 

[thegenius]

Can't there be a preponderance of "Expert Witnesses" on the other side arguing the opposite point? Prosecution brings 1 expert witness, the defense brings 3. The prosecution could bring more, so the defense will bring more. Drives up costs...but hopefully it's the hospital paying.

I think it would be great if an MD/JD cross-examined an expert witness MD. Theoretically the MD/JD would crush the expert witness MD.

 

[southerndoc]

You are correct. Our system is very flawed, as is the character of many of people doing "expert witness" work. I've been a victim of frivolous hit jobs like this, twice, unfortunately.

Me too. Currently going through one right now. Looking forward to posting details once everything is done. Truly unbelievable.

 

[RustedFox]

Me too. Currently going through one right now. Looking forward to posting details once everything is done. Truly unbelievable.

Me three.

 

[Siggy]

"I'll be fine even if I get COVID."

"I didn't think COVID was real."

Narrator: They were wrong.

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

 

[Mount Asclepius]

The judge rules that it can be given, as ordered by the pulmonologist and agreed upon by the patient's decision makers.

I’d turn over care to the physician who hasn’t seen the patient if the family wants a new physician that has a ridiculous opinion. If they aren’t privileged or even work at that hospital, then the family can sort that out. If physicians want to criticize other physician’s care and instead provide futile care then they need to take over responsibility of care.

But in general, if I’m near death with no hope from whatever disease, throw the kitchen sink at me.

Let me die if I’m in that situation instead of prolonging my suffering and likely inevitable death.

If I were the hospital I would be charging the family full cost for these drugs and take them to court for any unpaid balance, try to garnish wages, etc.

👍

Sarcasm aside, I don't think its administration getting in the way of this - I think its the actual attending physicians in this case.

Agree. These physicians need to be sanctioned.

 

[ER BlueBlood]

Oh I'm sure the prosecution brought in their "Expert Witnesses" to testify that Ivermectin is a great treatment. It's all frocking nonsense. If I were the hospital I would be charging the family full cost for these drugs and take them to court for any unpaid balance, try to garnish wages, etc.

exactly. This is an ideological battle at this point to me, they are going to use this to try to legitimize the use of ivermectin and other bogus treatments in social media and forums across the country. Stupid is as stupid does

 

[chocomorsel]

A mom and dad both died from covid in the icu last week. Both young and healthy. Both unvaccinated. The wife was a nurse who didn’t think the vaccine was safe. The husband was giving vaccines but wouldn’t get it himself because of his wife. Now they’re both dead. At least their kids are adults.

Also have a pregnant woman in the icu who is unvaccinated. She’s on a vent and just got a trach. Super.

What was their BMI? And were they by chance Hispanic?

 

[chocomorsel]

There’s a case at memorial Hermann in Houston currently where the family does not want to disclose vaccination status of the 74 year old on a ventilator (yea I think we know) and sued to have the grandad get ivermectin since the drs refused to give it as a therapy. A judge has sided with the family on allowing ivermectin as a last resort. Again, alternate universe

Why didn’t the doctors just give it? What’s the harm at this point? Throw the kitchen sink at them.
Some studies do show benefit. Of course if used early on which is too late by the time grandpa is on a vent. But screw it, I would have done it just to show them ain’t **** working for grandpa.
I love how people google shut though and then want to tell us to use it to do our jobs.
Had a family member point to a defibrillator last week and ask why we couldn’t use it on her dying relative.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

What was their BMI? And were they by chance Hispanic?

Not sure, but definitely not higher than 30. And no.

 

[chocomorsel]

Not sure, but definitely not higher than 30. And no.

BMI of greater than 30 does not equal healthy. Unless we are talking seriously muscular people, we are in obesity land. We all know Covid loves the obese.

 

[RustedFox]

Had a family member point to a defibrillator last week and ask why we couldn’t use it on her dying relative.

Whaaaaaat ?

 

[chocomorsel]

Whaaaaaat ?

Yeah, they are crazy. Clueless and don’t get it. Yeah, I am sorry your 25 year old brother is dying of Covid. A defibrillator is not gonna give him new lungs. This is an expensive lesson learned for all the rest of y’all to get vaccinated. Lost two in their twenties already w three more to follow, three or more in their 30s, too many to count in their 40s and none of them vaccinated. Sad, but I am all outa mercy and patience. It’s futile care at its best. Had a family member ask me if I had ever extubated anyone and I only ever extubated one. Ever, in the past year and half. And that was in NY.
Down here in S Texas they all die. About 90% mortality once you buy the tube.
All of the ICU patients non vaxxed except for this little 87 year old.
Quite frankly, Covid really makes me want to quit the ICU and go back to the OR. It’s a thankless job.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

BMI of greater than 30 does not equal healthy. Unless we are talking seriously muscular people, we are in obesity land. We all know Covid loves the obese.

I said not higher than 30.

 

[greatnt249]

Some studies do show benefit. Of course if used early on which is too late by the time grandpa is on a vent. But screw it, I would have done it just to show them ain’t **** working for grandpa.

Because if you use it and it doesn't work, it's not like the family will have an "oh gee, I guess we were lied to about ivermectin" moment. Instead, the goalposts will get moved and the thought will be "well maybe it would have worked if Gramps had been given ivermectin earlier." There's no win for medicine in this situation.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Down here in S Texas they all die. About 90% mortality once you buy the tube.

Same here in Florida. Have a 19-weeks preggo patient on the vent. Fun stuff.

 

[DoctwoB]

Why didn’t the doctors just give it? What’s the harm at this point? Throw the kitchen sink at them.
Some studies do show benefit. Of course if used early on which is too late by the time grandpa is on a vent. But screw it, I would have done it just to show them ain’t **** working for grandpa.
I love how people google shut though and then want to tell us to use it to do our jobs.
Had a family member point to a defibrillator last week and ask why we couldn’t use it on her dying relative.

The issue is not whether or not to give Ivermectin. It wouldn't be the first time doctors have given something that was unindicated to placate a patient/family and in a patient dying of covid the risk is low. The issue is whether the court should be compelling treatment that the doctor or hospital doesn't want to give. And the answer to that is F-no.

 

[chocomorsel]

I said not higher than 30.

Sorry. Misread it.

 

[chocomorsel]

Because if you use it and it doesn't work, it's not like the family will have an "oh gee, I guess we were lied to about ivermectin" moment. Instead, the goalposts will get moved and the thought will be "well maybe it would have worked if Gramps had been given ivermectin earlier." There's no win for medicine in this situation.

I have no problem throwing the kitchen sink at these people if it’s available. Nothing crazy expensive but I doubt Ivermectin is. Nothing to lose. They still gonna die.
I tried to get the family of a 62 year old DNI patient who caught it twice to make her comfort measures because she looked terrible and was gasping for air and getting more and more hypoxic, they said “no, she’s still talking and telling us she wants to fight and she’s our mom.” She only did that when her kids were there. When they were gone she said she was tired and couldn’t catch her breath. They were pissed at me and asked the hospitalist why I was pushing for comfort measures for their mom. Hospitalist defended me thankfully.
She died four hours after they left. But you know, “she’s a fighter”. SMH.
The **** we do to these patients. Why even code them. Wish we just didn’t. I don’t go all out on these as they ALWAYS die. No lungs, no life. Simple as that. Total waste of time and RTs want to unplug and bag ans spread that **** everywhere for what?

 

[Lawpy]

Apparently, some unvaccinated people reported they preferred the taste of ivermectin and would not deal with painful vaccines

I feel the longer we progress in the pandemic, the more delusional the antivaxxers become

 

[Lawpy]

I don’t believe in Ivermectin. But in general, if I’m near death with no hope from whatever disease, throw the kitchen sink at me. I’m your guinea pig and I don’t want any clipboard wielding administrator who’s given up on me, getting between my family and any doctor trying to save my life.

I trust steroids, IL 6 antagonists and even remdesivir over that scam known as ivermectin even in near death

 

[Lawpy]

If they were to sue successfully, they'd have to argue that not giving Ivermectin violates "standard of care." That would be pretty tough considering the FDA and many medical societies have made statement against ivermectin in COVID, and essentially none, in favor of it. That makes it by definition, the opposite of standard of care. On the other hand, there doesn't seem to be any limit on the stupidity of cases lawyers will file.

All it takes is one expert witness to make the statement that it's standard of care. I'm sure someone in the FLCCC group would easily do that for the amount of money expert witnesses make.

Doesn't mean the litigation will be successful, but it would create a lot of expense and heartache among the defendants.

What does standard of care mean in this case and why isn't restricted to only FDA approved treatments?

 

[Siggy]

One of our regional hospitals has acquired refrigerated trucks to expand morgue capacity amongst this delta surge spike.
Man, Florida.

This place really is an amazing dichotomy of seniors who would stand in line for hours (or hire people to search online for them) to get the shot, and those who ardently opposed vaccination for nonsensical reasons.

Its crazypants here.

I'm not sure if I'm hat the hospital you mentioned, but my 400 bed ex-Tenet hospital has a portable walk in refrigerator sitting out in the parking lot as well. Thankfully our new numbers have dumped, so we're just now dealing with the ones we already have... including the 40 year old we put on a vent this week (I was assured that the young without significant comorbidity survive, so COVID wasn't a big deal...).

 

[Siggy]

The unvaccinated, healthy 35 year old male died. Now his daughters not only have to live with the fact that their dad died unexpectedly, but that their dad could have easily spared them the loss, with a walk-in appointment at Walgreens.

Walk in appointment at Walgreens? Hell, we've got a tent in the regional park vaccinating people down in South Florida. The kids could be playing outdoors while their Dad prioritized spending the rest of his life with them. Instead he prioritized stiggin it to the libs.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Walk in appointment at Walgreens? Hell, we've got a tent in the regional park vaccinating people down in South Florida. The kids could be playing outdoors while their Dad prioritized spending the rest of his life with them. Instead he prioritized stiggin it to the libs.

Muh freedums.

 

[Birdstrike]

Walk in appointment at Walgreens? Hell, we've got a tent in the regional park vaccinating people down in South Florida. The kids could be playing outdoors while their Dad prioritized spending the rest of his life with them. Instead he prioritized stiggin it to the libs.

Muh freedums.

Actually he was an African American man whose family said he was distrustful of government experimenting on people like him and had referenced the Tuskegee experiments as a factor in his decision.