F's on transcript due to missing chapel

[ChrisMack390]

As much as it pains my cold, dead, atheist heart to say this - you should have sucked it up and gone to chapel or dealt with the finicial consequences of transferring. Instead you did the most immature thing possible.

Dude has already been banned from this website. Just drop it.

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[touchpause13]

Dude has already be banned from this website. Just drop it.

Damn bruh chill.

 

[whitemagic]

Wow this post is just bad. Knowing how many ADCOMS view SDN, literally any med student/adcom that reviews this application will see the 7 F's and know that it was this guy on SDN who just made a total fool of himself. I'd be more worried about the damage I just caused myself in this thread than the 7 F's at this point. Good riddance OP.

 

[Affiche]

Lol @touchpause13 he basically told you:

 

[ChrisMack390]

I was all for berating this guy, but now he can't even read the posts.

 

[efle]

Wow this post is just bad. Knowing how many ADCOMS view SDN, literally any med student/adcom that reviews this application will see the 7 F's and know that it was this guy on SDN who just made a total fool of himself. I'd be more worried about the damage I just caused myself in this thread than the 7 F's at this point. Good riddance OP.

well could've been a lot worse, could've been an arrogant dingus for a couple years and then accidentally posted their identity

 

[whitemagic]

I was all for berating this guy, but now he can't even read the posts.

His account is banned. He can still access SDN a million other ways, all he has to do is make an account.

@efle, that's hilarious. At least you're a good looking dude so you have that going for you

 

[efle]

His account is banned. He can still access SDN a million other ways, all he has to do is make an account.

@efle, that's hilarious. At least you're a good looking dude so you have that going for you

Yeah ill just flirt my way through my imminent interview with gyngyn

 

[mk04447]

The more I think about it, the school must set a schedule for you. Otherwise why would you even enroll? You can't say it was required to graduate or you'd need to pass. With this in mind, it must common scuttlebutt that everyone complains about and there are probably several students who take the fail. Damn millennials are like lemmings, they'll follow anyone off a cliff.

 

[mehc012]

Wrong. I agree that OP was acting on principles, but repeatedly decided to break the rules. S/he knew what they were getting into, and that's problem. The reasonable choice at that point would be to transfer.

That would have been an irrational choice. OP weighed the options, and not attending chapel was worth more than the 0.1 GPA hit.

The financial cost of transferring schools, however, was not worth avoiding that 0.1 GPA hit.

It's a perfectly logical decision, and is only really an issue if someone decides to get a bee in their bonnet over the fact that OP decided their religious comfort was more important than 3.5 credits. They didn't negatively impact anyone else by their decision to abstain from services.

 

[efle]

That would have been an irrational choice. OP weighed the options, and not attending chapel was worth more than the 0.1 GPA hit.

The financial cost of transferring schools, however, was not worth avoiding that 0.1 GPA hit.

It's a perfectly logical decision, and is only really an issue if someone decides to get a bee in their bonnet over the fact that OP decided their religious comfort was more important than 3.5 credits. They didn't negatively impact anyone else by their decision to abstain from services.

That's not the conflict. Nobody thinks the 3.5 credits matters. What matters is what is symbolized here, what it says about OP that they'd take money from a school and sign up for a mandatory religious curriculum and then fail chapel every semester rather than tough out the responsibilities they signed up for.

 

[mehc012]

That's not the conflict. Nobody thinks the 3.5 credits matters. What matters is what is symbolized here, what it says about OP that they'd take money from a school and sign up for a mandatory religious curriculum and then fail chapel every semester rather than tough out the responsibilities they signed up for.

They signed up to go to that school and abide by their rules.
The rule was, go to chapel or earn 4 credit hours of Fs.
OP worked within their rules, making the choices that worked best for them. If the school wanted to require chapel attendance for graduation or for scholarship retention, they could easily have done so. THEIR policies dictated the weight of importance placed on attendance. Why should adcoms place more importance upon that 'responsibility' than the school itself did?

 

[gyngyn]

Why should adcoms place more importance upon that 'responsibility' than the school itself did?

We often see things through a different lens.

 

[mehc012]

We often see things through a different lens.

Clearly. I'm just remarking at how distorted that lens seems to be in this instance.

 

[ZedsDed]

There is no "primary definition". There are multiple definitions and you should be able to deduce which one is used depending on the context. Good luck on VR. I can tell why you're on probation.

Oh the irony.

 

[gyngyn]

Clearly. I'm just remarking at how distorted that lens seems to be in this instance.

How do you know which way the lens would turn?
There are many ways in which OP's judgement might be viewed.
Her undergrad's view is only one of them.

 

[Goro]

The lens provides 20/20 vision when looking at the behaviors of med students in their 3rd and 4th years who turn out to be poor students because they decide they don't want to follow the rules. Both gyngyn and I have seen this in action.

Life and its choices don't end with college graduation.

Clearly. I'm just remarking at how distorted that lens seems to be in this instance.

 

[mehc012]

How do you know which way the lens turned?

OP had 3 negative things to choose between:
- transfer and spend tens of thousands of extra dollars
- attend religious ceremonies they disagreed with and felt uncomfortable at (which benefits neither them nor those who truly believe and want to enjoy the ceremony)
- take a 0.1 gpa hit.

The general consensus on this thread seems to be that the third option, the one OP took, is the one which reflects poor judgement. So, for all the talk of how grade-grubbing robots are seen negatively in medical admissions, how gpa is only important as an indicator of academic ability, not for the actual number value, and how people should be smart enough to make good financial decisions for themselves, it seems that valuing religious comfort and debt-free finances is still seen as somehow lesser than 0.1 grade point.

To me, that's backwards.

 

[mehc012]

The lens provides 20/20 vision when looking at the behaviors of med students in their 3rd and 4th years who turn out to be poor students because they decide they don't want to follow the rules. Both gyngyn and I have seen this in action.

Life and its choices don't end with college graduation.

They followed the rules. There was an action and a consequence: go to chapel, or get 4 credits of Fs. They made their choice and accepted the consequence. They performed well enough academically to mitigate that penalty.
Only now there are new consequences being added, with little real justification, by people who never had any skin in the chapel attendance game to begin with.

 

[efle]

OP had 3 negative things to choose between:
- transfer and spend tens of thousands of extra dollars
- attend religious ceremonies they disagreed with and felt uncomfortable at (which benefits neither them nor those who truly believe and want to enjoy the ceremony)
- take a 0.1 gpa hit.

The general consensus on this thread seems to be that the third option, the one OP took, is the one which reflects poor judgement. So, for all the talk of how grade-grubbing robots are seen negatively in medical admissions, how gpa is only important as an indicator of academic ability, not for the actual number value, and how people should be smart enough to make good financial decisions for themselves, it seems that valuing religious comfort and debt-free finances is still seen as somehow lesser than 0.1 grade point.

To me, that's backwards.

There was a fourth option of don't matriculate to a school that will clash so much with you. The money and parents cards are weak for reasons I said above. Out of the three you listed after matriculating/agreeing the mature option is sit there and fulfill your obligation, zone out and ignore the teacher if they make you uncomfortable (whatever that could even mean).

To your earlier point: it doesn't matter if its scholarship retention, graduation, 80 credits, 3 credits or one credit. The messages being sent remain unchanged. The university clearly wants X for all of its students; if you enroll there (let alone take a scholarship) you have no way to look good if you skip out on X.

 

[mehc012]

There was a fourth option of don't matriculate to a school that will clash so much with you. The money and parents cards are weak for reasons I said above. Out of the three you listed after matriculating/agreeing the mature option is sit there and fulfill your obligation, zone out and ignore the teacher if they make you uncomfortable (whatever that could even mean).

To your earlier point: it doesn't matter if its scholarship retention, graduation, 80 credits, 3 credits or one credit. The messages being sent remain unchanged. The university clearly wants X for all of its students; if you enroll there (let alone take a scholarship) you have no way to look good if you skip out on X.

They clearly didn't put much weight on X. Why don't we let them worry about their own extra tidbits.

The money card is never weak.

And no, going to chapel is completely different from going to a class. If you can't comprehend how uncomfortable it can participate with a religion you patently disagree with, a lot of world history must make zero sense to you.

 

[ZedsDed]

They clearly didn't put much weight on X. Why don't we let them worry about their own extra tidbits.

The money card is never weak.

And no, going to chapel is completely different from going to a class. If you can't comprehend how uncomfortable it can participate with a religion you patently disagree with, a lot of world history must make zero sense to you.

I'm an atheist. I grew up in a very religious household. honestly? I roll my eyes at the idea that going to chapel was so horrifying for the OP. The ability to make small compromises is essential to survival in life.

 

[efle]

They clearly didn't put much weight on X. Why don't we let them worry about their own extra tidbits.

The money card is never weak.

And no, going to chapel is completely different from going to a class. If you can't comprehend how uncomfortable it can participate with a religion you patently disagree with, a lot of world history must make zero sense to you.

Its weak in that other universities with scholarships and cheap state schools exist. I wouldn't say go somewhere more expensive. I would say go somewhere else cheap.

Yeah or you know maybe I've been there and listened to extremely religious family and church talk about the evils of abortion while counseling my best friend to get one. Just tune out and keep everyone happy by sitting there quietly. It isn't hard.

 

[ZedsDed]

Its weak in that other universities with scholarships and cheap state schools exist. I wouldn't say go somewhere more expensive. I would say go somewhere else cheap.

Yeah or you know maybe I've been there and listened to extremely religious family and church talk about the evils of abortion while counseling my best friend to get one. Just tune out and keep everyone happy by sitting there quietly. It isn't hard.

Seriously. This totally sounds like a first-world problem. Sitting in chapel I mean. No doubt OP would've been quite melodramatic on his "biggest obstacle" essay.

 

[Vespasian]

So OP was too principled to sit in a chapel and listen to a service which suddenly violated their beliefs but not too principled to take dat dere money and degree.

Poor OP, they were blindsided by the sudden realization that they were uncomfortable and disagreed with a religion that they admitted to being very familiar with (even going to a very similar Christian HS) and had reservations about before matriculating.

It's funny, if someone comes on SDN whining about how they feel pressured by their parents to attend a certain college, have a certain major or become a physician/dentist/etc. they're told to suck it up and start living like an adult. OP throws in religion and suddenly people are sympathetic because... well, religion.

 

[Cotterpin]

As an atheist, I don't feel uncomfortable going to church. It makes my parents happy when I go with them, so it's a small sacrifice to make. If you don't even believe in a god, then who is it really hurting? Sure, it can kinda be boring and a waste of your time, but sometimes you have to do those things.

When I started my undergrad, since I'm a nontrad student, I got selected to be in a class that was kind of like a remedial this-is-how-to-school seminar once a week. I didn't ask to take this class. I didn't want to take the class. They were just like "Here, you're doing this, you can't schedule any other classes during this block of time, attendance is mandatory, and you get no course credit for it." So I went every week, even though I had better things to do with my time, because I didn't want a big ol' FAIL on my transcript for no good reason. You try to make the best of things and then move on. Pick your battles, you know?

 

[mehc012]

That's great for you guys that it doesn't make you feel uncomfortable. For some people, it really does. I would rather be punched in the face repeatedly every Sunday morning than attend services. I have gone, on occasion, when asked by a friend, when asked "in order to really see what it is about," and for special events such as weddings. But dedicated, consistent attendance? *shudder*

OP did attend his first semester. Maybe they thought that, like you guys, it was no big deal for them...and after a semester they found themselves unable to continue attending. At that point, one of the options available to them was to cede 0.1 grade points to mitigate that discomfort. The list of other options is probably infinite, but there are pros and cons to all of them - losing scholarship money, losing a year of time, losing the friends/structure they had set up in their first year, etc. Perhaps each one of us would have made a different choice in that situation, but I am still not seeing anything inherently wrong with the one that OP made. They asked for no special treatment by the school, and their choice did not hurt any other people. So why the hell does anyone even care?

 

[Vespasian]

OP did attend his first semester. Maybe they thought that, like you guys, it was no big deal for them...and after a semester they found themselves unable to continue attending.

OP said they were very familiar with the religion of the institution they were attending, had attended a similar HS and had reservations before even attending that first semester. In other words, they knew what they were getting into before they set foot in that chapel.

So why the hell does anyone even care?

Because OP asked how they should handle this, was offered suggestions on how they should handle it, disagreed and proceeded to argue with several people in the know about how it should be handled. OP started the thread and asked for everyone to care enough to reply.

 

[mehc012]

Because OP asked how they should handle this, was offered suggestions on how they should handle it, disagreed and proceeded to argue with several people in the know about how it should be handled. OP started the thread and asked for everyone to care enough to reply.

OP asked about how to handle inquiries about this, not whether they should have done it to begin with. And what I'm asking is rather "why is this something that is an automatic red flag against them." I have seen the reasoning given for it, and imo it is just judgemental bullcrap.

OP's gpa shows that they are academically competent. There are a ton of things in their app which can be used to evaluate them, and which adcoms are used to sorting through. But the fact that they chose to skip a graded chapel attendance? That is something which a multitude of factors may have led to, and which frankly is only relevant to future medical school performance/behavior as a physician in a very limited set of circumstances, and even then it's the slightest bit of tangential relevance. So it bugs me to see such widespread, vehement judgement.

 

[Holmwood]

Well, maybe it was just an emotional reaction to being judged all his life by his parents, church, and university.
SDN community can be preachy and rigid at times, sort of like the people OP despises.

 

[mehc012]

Here's the reason I view it as a red flag.

OP didn't take some moral stand. He didn't go to anyone at the school and voice his concerns/discomfort. He didn't propose or seek out an alternative option to meet the school's requirement (maybe they would have been amenable to an independent study or a community service project?). He didn't even organize a protest.

He just didn't feel like doing it, so he said f*** it. For 3.5 years, without taking any other action to try and deal with the situation.

Sometimes in med school (a lot of times actually), we have requirements that we don't feel like doing. Doesn't matter...still gotta get them done. Someone with a low tolerance for following the rules and a tendency to blow off requirements has a red flag.

Simple as that. Same reason someone with a history of truancy for any other class would have a red flag. It's not particularly about the religion thing.

See, that's why I wouldn't view it as a red flag. They didn't ask for special treatment. They didn't protest, they didn't attempt to circumvent the school's policies while still collecting their money. They simply accepted that the school had the right to make that requirement, decided that the cost of attempting to change schools was too high, and found a way to work within the school's system to get the gpa they needed.

I would find a student accepting a scholarship from a religious institution and then protesting the religious components to be immature. I do not find it immature to accept a 0.1 gpa loss in order to maintain a healthy scholarship.

 

[efle]

Medical school committee members may have many more opinions than just the ones you listed.

What is your view?

 

[mehc012]

Medical school committee members may have many more opinions than just the ones you listed.

Yeah, but I was already in run-on sentence territory

 

[Holmwood]

So because there's so many different ways to interpret it, the safest route may not have been to try and justify it in the secondary as it could be interpreted by the reader as mature thinking or downright excuses.

As such, I support just grin and bearing it as it makes financial sense and can be spun into a positive story. Transferring is not going to remove the taint on the transcript.
: D

 

[mehc012]

It's not about the GPA, it's about predicting future behavior.

...and you'd rather see "takes their money, finds their policy hard to abide by, chooses not to attend chapel and then whines at them" than "takes their money, finds their policy hard to abide by, chooses not to attend chapel and accepts the listed consequences of doing so"?

 

[Vespasian]

OP asked about how to handle inquiries about this, not whether they should have done it to begin with. And what I'm asking is rather "why is this something that is an automatic red flag against them." I have seen the reasoning given for it, and imo it is just judgemental bullcrap.

OP's gpa shows that they are academically competent. There are a ton of things in their app which can be used to evaluate them, and which adcoms are used to sorting through. But the fact that they chose to skip a graded chapel attendance? That is something which a multitude of factors may have led to, and which frankly is only relevant to future medical school performance/behavior as a physician in a very limited set of circumstances, and even then it's the slightest bit of tangential relevance. So it bugs me to see such widespread, vehement judgement.

It's 7 Fs, that's why it's an automatic redflag. If I'm looking at an overview of OP's undergrad grades there are 7 Fs back to back to back to back to back to back to back.

Mr./Ms. Ad-com: "So OP, your GPA looks great. MCAT, EC's, LoRs are all solid. What's up with these 7 F's?"
OP: "Well Mr./Ms. Ad-com, I didn't go to chapel because it made me uncomfortable."
Mr./Ms. Ad-com: "So what did you do to address this situation?"
OP: "Well Mr./Ms. Ad-com, I just failed the class."
Mr./Ms. Ad-com: "So you had this revelation after becoming more familiar with this particular religion and, instead of transferring or going to a different school, you just failed?"
OP: "Oh no, my high school was pretty much the same flavor of Christianity. I really didn't want to go to this school to begin with. I didn't transfer or go elsewhere because of money and also my parents wouldn't let me."
Mr./Ms. Ad-com: "Okay... Did you attempt to explain the situation or find a work around?"
OP: "No... Well, I didn't protest or ask for special treatment."
Mr./Ms. Ad-com: "So you did nothing. You failed a class every semester for 2.5-3.5 years..."

 

[Vespasian]

...and you'd rather see "takes their money, finds their policy hard to abide by, chooses not to attend chapel and then whines at them" than "takes their money, finds their policy hard to abide by, chooses not to attend chapel and accepts the listed consequences of doing so"?

I get a ticket for parking at an expired meter in front of a hospital because I'm in a big rush, family member in the hospital and all that. So instead of paying the ticket (taking a financial hit) or going to court to defend yourself by asking for an exemption to policy/law (whining) you do nothing. The ticket accrues fees over many, many months and eventually a warrant is issued for your arrest. You now have a misdemeanor warrant and an arrest on your record. I can't imagine why an ad-com would look unfavorably on doing absolutely nothing to remedy a difficult situation. But... but you were just accepting the listed consequence of your actions instead of whining or doing ANYTHING about it.

 

[mehc012]

I get a ticket for parking at an expired meter in front of a hospital because I'm in a big rush, family member in the hospital and all that. So instead of paying the ticket (taking a financial hit) or going to court to defend yourself by asking for an exemption to policy/law (whining) you do nothing. The ticket accrues fees over many, many months and eventually a warrant is issued for your arrest. You now have a misdemeanor warrant and an arrest on your record. I can't imagine why an ad-com would look unfavorably on doing absolutely nothing to remedy a difficult situation. But... but you were just accepting the listed consequence of your actions instead of whining or doing ANYTHING about it.

You didn't pay them the money, so...no, you didn't accept the listed consequence of your action.

 

[mehc012]

No, I'd rather see a different applicant who doesn't have a history of skipping classes for the past three years.

And "whining" about it is kind of a straw man since that's nowhere near what I said. In an ideal world, I'd prefer to have seen the OP at least attempt a constructive solution, of which I think there are many.

Oh please, it's hardly a real class. Even the university didn't bother to give it meaningful credit hours.

 

[philosonista]

This is definitely something open to wildly different interpretations. Anything that could be deduced from the seven F's could likely be countered by something else on his app (Ex. In med school there are many things you have to do that you don't want to. Counter: Look at his GPA. That's a whole lot of doing things that he likely didn't want to).

It will never cease to amaze me the variety of extrapolations of one's behavior people come up with when they know you're a pre-med. This is why I've learned to avoid telling people like the plague.

I agree with mehc012 to a fault, but it's not shocking that Goro and other see otherwise. OP is going to have to tread carefully.

 

[efle]

It's 7 Fs, that's why it's an automatic redflag. If I'm looking at an overview of OP's undergrad grades there are 7 Fs back to back to back to back to back to back to back.

Mr./Ms. Ad-com: "So OP, your GPA looks great. MCAT, EC's, LoRs are all solid. What's up with these 7 F's?"
OP: "Well Mr./Ms. Ad-com, I didn't go to chapel because it made me uncomfortable."
Mr./Ms. Ad-com: "So what did you do to address this situation?"
OP: "Well Mr./Ms. Ad-com, I just failed the class."
Mr./Ms. Ad-com: "So you had this revelation after becoming more familiar with this particular religion and, instead of transferring or going to a different school, you just failed?"
OP: "Oh no, my high school was pretty much the same flavor of Christianity. I really didn't want to go to this school to begin with. I didn't transfer or go elsewhere because of money and also my parents wouldn't let me."
Mr./Ms. Ad-com: "Okay... Did you attempt to explain the situation or find a work around?"
OP: "No... Well, I didn't protest or ask for special treatment."
Mr./Ms. Ad-com: "So you did nothing. You failed a class every semester for 2.5-3.5 years..."

You left off the last line:

OP: you'd understand if you weren't such an idiot, Mr/Ms Adcom.

 

[Cotterpin]

@mehc012 I think it's way less about the particulars of the "class" and how many credits were involved and more about whether or not OP honors his or her commitments. Nobody wants a doctor who just blows things off without even attempting to address things with the school administration or anything.

 

[mehc012]

And that just furthers my point. The applicant who blows off things they view as unimportant or not meaningful...has a red flag.

They didn't blow off something they viewed as unimportant, they blew off something that literally was unimportant.

 

[mehc012]

@mehc012 I think it's way less about the particulars of the "class" and how many credits were involved and more about whether or not OP honors his or her commitments. Nobody wants a doctor who just blows things off without even attempting to address things with the school administration or anything.

I'm perfectly fine with a doctor who blows off meaningless, time-wasting bullcrap. They paid in gpa to avoid wasting their time on busywork. Real doctors pay actual money to scribe companies to avoid wasting their time on charting busywork.

They had no need to address things, because they performed well enough academically to counteract the consequences of the school's policy.

 

[Cotterpin]

They didn't blow off something they viewed as unimportant, they blew off something that literally was unimportant.

If you have made a commitment to do something, honoring that is important.

I'm perfectly fine with a doctor who blows off meaningless, time-wasting bullcrap. They paid in gpa to avoid wasting their time on busywork. Real doctors pay actual money to scribe companies to avoid wasting their time on charting busywork.

They had no need to address things, because they performed well enough academically to counteract the consequences of the school's policy.

Well, the consequences might also involve not getting into med school. So there's that to think about as well. Blowing off your commitments looks terrible, no matter whether or not you think you know that it's meaningless and you can handle it.

 

[mehc012]

That's your (biased) perspective. You've been shown others by multiple people who have experience reviewing applications. I'm not sure what your point is if you can't acknowledge other perspectives.

I have yet to see anyone explain the real-world value of them attending chapel. No one has even remotely addressed that.

Attending clearly would not have benefited OP, as they don't seem to feel aligned with that religious service.
It would not have demonstrated academic fitness.
It would not have improved the lives of others.
It was irrelevant academically, religiously, etc.
So what is it that we're so concerned that they skipped out on? Who cares if they aren't religious? As far as judgement goes, they got a good gpa at a great price.

 

[Vespasian]

You didn't pay them the money, so...no, you didn't accept the listed consequence of your action.

Paying the ticket isn't a consequence of your action it's a decision- you don't have to pay the ticket, you have options; you can decide to pay the ticket (transfer schools), you can decide to go to court and dispute it (talk to someone at your school, work something out, etc.) or you can do absolutely nothing (not go to chapel, not transfer schools, work out an arrangement) and accept the consequence and have a warrant issued/end up going to jail (getting an F).

 

[mehc012]

If you have made a commitment to do something, honoring that is important.

Not if it has zero impact on anyone else. If I make a New Year's resolution to make a fingerpainting every day, and I quit after 3d, I have not honored my commitment, yet somehow I doubt anyone would care even if I told that anecdote at every interview.

 

[mehc012]

Paying the ticket isn't a consequence of your action it's a decision- you don't have to pay the ticket, you have options; you can decide to pay the ticket (transfer schools), you can decide to go to court and dispute it (talk to someone at your school, work something out, etc.) or you can do absolutely nothing (not go to chapel, not transfer schools, work out an arrangement) and accept the consequence and have a warrant issued/end up going to jail (getting an F).

Yyyeah, you're beyond stretching things, sorry. This is a completely false analogue.

 

[Cotterpin]

Not if it has zero impact on anyone else. If I make a New Year's resolution to make a fingerpainting every day, and I quit after 3d, I have not honored my commitment, yet somehow I doubt anyone would care even if I told that anecdote at every interview.

It was obviously important to OP's school, so he's letting down his commitment to them.

Also, when I make commitments to myself, even if they don't impact anyone else, I always feel bad if I don't stick to it. At that point, it's a matter of self-discipline, which is important to me.

You don't seem to be getting the point here that mental attitude and how you approach conflict is way more relevant to whether you would be a good doctor than whether you made the best choice strictly as it pertains to your gpa.