Got Caught Cheating on Exam, Is my pre-med career over?

[jamcat]

Sorry, misread your post there. I agree with you.

On another note, I don't think I misread your post, IlDestriero! Man, where's the compassion they're going for in physicians these days? One impulsive mistake as a 19-year-old makes you personally dishonorable, kicked out of school, and permanently barred from entering a profession you've been yearning to join? Yikes.

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[Dral]

Sorry, misread your post there. I agree with you.

On another note, I don't think I misread your post, IlDestriero! Man, where's the compassion they're going for in physicians these days? One impulsive mistake as a 19-year-old makes you personally dishonorable, kicked out of school, and permanently barred from entering a profession you've been yearning to join? Yikes.

Well, there are like 6 trillion others trying to get into medicine who have same stats and who haven't cheated...or at least who haven't been caught.

Getting caught cheating is a simple quick way for ad coms to toss another app in the 'no' pile without having to meticulously review it.

 

[Spirit of the Student Doc]

Well, there are like 6 trillion others trying to get into medicine who have same stats and who haven't cheated...or at least who haven't been caught.

Is that an eo as your avatar?

 

[efle]

The part where I said "OP must have literally included exact side notes, arrows, positioning, etc. "

A striking degree of similarity, ie identical, or without a reasonable doubt copied.

Of course there are general similarities, because there are correct answers, and at least a few students with correct answers in synthesis are bound to be similar.

If they are really suspected of cheating, however, the degree of similarity must be really high. That's the assumption we have to make.

You can't prove either one, except for by word of professor and copy of exams.

Edit: sorry I misread your first post. I guess you would have to bring in both students.

Wow I assumed he wouldn't be dumb enough to cheat by copying identically. If he even has the same notes in the margins or something then yeah, now it's just a case of who copied who.

 

[Spirit of the Student Doc]

Wow I assumed he wouldn't be dumb enough to cheat by copying identically. If he even has the same notes in the margins or something then yeah, now it's just a case of who copied who.

I assume they both get a 0 on the assignment. Unless they fight it. If the professor was going to take it farther, they already would've.

 

[torshi]

Very unfortunate situation. Every one has cheated in some way throughout college, it's just a matter of being unlucky. It definitely hurts considering the competitive field - it's just an easy way to weed out an applicant in a pile of thousands of applications. Might need a gap year to prove something more or less.

 

[Ismet]

I know that, I'm not saying OP is a terrible person and I really hope he can sort his situation out. I'm just saying that cheating doesn't make any logical sense from a risk standpoint.

People often don't think logically or rationally in times of stress or desperation.

 

[Make Or Break]

Has OP responded at all yet?

 

[jamcat]

Well, there are like 6 trillion others trying to get into medicine who have same stats and who haven't cheated...or at least who haven't been caught.

Getting caught cheating is a simple quick way for ad coms to toss another app in the 'no' pile without having to meticulously review it.

Yeah, their mistakes haven't been this particular mistake. But everyone has made some sort of mistake, and I think it's rather smug to suggest that this mistake should somehow be more damning than others.

I'll never forget the look on my brother's face when I was arguing with him (when I was in college) and it was getting personal and I said something that I knew would hurt him, precisely *because* I knew it would hurt him. And it did. And the hurt on his face after I said it is etched into my mind. I try every day to be the kindest, most compassionate person I can be, but I failed in that moment to live to those ideals.

To me, that is every bit as bad as one instance of impulsive cheating, and I think even worse because I knowingly hurt someone. Should I be permanently barred from med school for that?

Has OP responded at all yet?

No, and I'm a bit worried. I hope he's okay. One of the biggest hurdles, however this turns out (IA or failing the class), is going to be to accept this mistake an learn how to live with it. I can imagine this this is an extraordinarily unmooring event for him, and I hope he is able to cope. OP, if you're still here, check in and let us know how it's going.

 

[AspiringERMD]

Yeah, their mistakes haven't been this particular mistake. But everyone has made some sort of mistake, and I think it's rather smug to suggest that this mistake should somehow be more damning than others.

I'll never forget the look on my brother's face when I was arguing with him (when I was in college) and it was getting personal and I said something that I knew would hurt him, precisely *because* I knew it would hurt him. And it did. And the hurt on his face after I said it is etched into my mind. I try every day to be the kindest, most compassionate person I can be, but I failed in that moment to live to those ideals.

To me, that is every bit as bad as one instance of impulsive cheating, and I think even worse because I knowingly hurt someone. Should I be permanently barred from med school for that?

No, and I'm a bit worried. I hope he's okay. One of the biggest hurdles, however this turns out (IA or failing the class), is going to be to accept this mistake an learn how to live with it. I can imagine this this is an extraordinarily unmooring event for him, and I hope he is able to cope. OP, if you're still here, check in and let us know how it's going.

I agree with everything you just said. There isn't a person in the world who has never done anything dishonest (over the age of maybe 4). I certainly have. I'm rooting for OP and hope they let us know how they're doing and how it turns out.

 

[efle]

Every one has cheated in some way throughout college, it's just a matter of being unlucky.

This is 100% not true.

 

[jamcat]

Every one has cheated in some way throughout college, it's just a matter of being unlucky.

Geez torshi, I'm assuming you cheated in college? I don't think many of us have...

This is giving me a headache! Signing off now, but before I depart, here's to morality, here's to not accepting cheating as a normal occurrence, here's to compassion and forgiveness of mistakes, and here's to aspiring every day to be the best people we can be.

 

[torshi]

Geez torshi, I'm assuming you cheated in college? I don't think many of us have...

This is giving me a headache! Signing off now, but before I depart, here's to morality, here's to not accepting cheating as a normal occurrence, here's to compassion and forgiveness of mistakes, and here's to aspiring every day to be the best people we can be.

Generalization, but to deny many on this forum haven't in some trivial way or form done it, is to deny reality. I don't condone it and I don't think anyone does (I personally have never cheated - never needed too and was chicken to risk it), however I've witnessed it with professors and TAs not doing a thing about it. Also, I don't believe cheating defines someones character for life, although there are exceptions to that statement.

 

[Goro]

I understand where you're coming from, but there is plenty of data to show that dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students.

Given that it's a seller's market, there are tons of qualified candidates who didn't cheat, nor fall to pieces when life hits them with a stressor either.

Sorry, misread your post there. I agree with you.

On another note, I don't think I misread your post, IlDestriero! Man, where's the compassion they're going for in physicians these days? One impulsive mistake as a 19-year-old makes you personally dishonorable, kicked out of school, and permanently barred from entering a profession you've been yearning to join? Yikes.

 

[Spirit of the Student Doc]

Very unfortunate situation. Every one has cheated in some way throughout college, it's just a matter of being unlucky. It definitely hurts considering the competitive field - it's just an easy way to weed out an applicant in a pile of thousands of applications. Might need a gap year to prove something more or less.

Uh, no they haven't. (Not trying to lynch OP here) But, it's not something everyone does.

Generalization, but to deny many on this forum haven't in some trivial way or form done it, is to deny reality. I don't condone it and I don't think anyone does (I personally have never cheated - never needed too and was chicken to risk it), however I've witnessed it with professors and TAs not doing a thing about it. Also, I don't believe cheating defines someones character for life, although there are exceptions to that statement.

In an academic setting? What is trivial?

 

[Gastrapathy]

I was caught the first time I ever tried to hire a hooker. Oh wait, maybe it was the second. I can't remember.

 

[torshi]

Uh, no they haven't. (Not trying to lynch OP here) But, it's not something everyone does.



In an academic setting? What is trivial?

I meant trivial as to the extent of which it was done. Literal cheating vs. some individuals who copy each others research papers, revise it, etc etc all kinds which constitute cheating. As to "everyone," as I noted, it's a generalization. I've witnessed many people cheat. I've also TAed for multiple courses back in the day, proctored exams. I gave many warnings. People simply make mistakes. I don't condone it of course, but all I'm stating is OP simply was unlucky out of thousands who don't get caught on a daily basis.

 

[Visible Ghost]

I was caught the first time I ever tried to hire a hooker. Oh wait, maybe it was the second. I can't remember.

That's disgusting

 

[jamcat]

I understand where you're coming from, but there is plenty of data to show that dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students.

Given that it's a seller's market, there are tons of qualified candidates who didn't cheat, nor fall to pieces when life hits them with a stressor either.

I accept that the admissions process is the admissions process. My argument for compassion was a response to some posts on this thread. I guess I just expected more tact from a physician (a physician!) when an obviously very distraught 19/20-year-old student asks for advice, rather than being told he should get his "dishonorable ass" to another university.

I don't want to be dramatic, but this is the story you read about in the paper when the bright kid who had everything going for him ends it. His life's goal is to be a physician and a moment's indiscretion might very well have ended that for him, so on top of feeling overwhelming remorse for a moral misstep, he sees his life's plan disintegrate in front of his eyes. Regardless of why, that's big and that's scary. Some empathy would be called for on this thread, if not in the admissions process. Being honest with the OP is helpful. Telling the OP to get his dishonorable ass out is not only unproductive but quite likely destructive, and I'm not sure why anybody would do that, much less somebody in a service profession.

 

[touchpause13]

Btw OP I'm rooting for you. You made a mistake and I think you realize it/won't do it again.

Also not all students cheat, unless you have some extremely broad definitions of cheating (aka collaborating with other students in any way shape or form)

 

[Lamel]

on a side note, who the hell takes orgo their junior year

Lots of people, including me.

 

[touchpause13]

Lots of people, including me.

Yup. I thought that was pretty standard

 

[GomersGoToGround]

Wow I assumed he wouldn't be dumb enough to cheat by copying identically. If he even has the same notes in the margins or something then yeah, now it's just a case of who copied who.

I wish I could say I haven't seen this happen. Some people leave their brains in their other pants when they leave the house.

Then again, don't know what exactly the OP copied.

But I assume it must be pretty similar to somebody else's if the professor thinks they cheated. Unless the professor SAW them cheat, and is using their own account + similarities as a case.

 

[Yorick]

Has OP responded at all yet?

No I think it's a troll post. How the hell can you copy a synthesis answer, every mechanism and reagent, on an exam without being blatantly obvious that you're looking at someone else's paper.

 

[Yorick]

Either way, play stupid games, win stupid prizes

 

[DermViser]

That's disgusting

Pretty sure he is kidding about patronizing hookers.

 

[DermViser]

I accept that the admissions process is the admissions process. My argument for compassion was a response to some posts on this thread. I guess I just expected more tact from a physician (a physician!) when an obviously very distraught 19/20-year-old student asks for advice, rather than being told he should get his "dishonorable ass" to another university.

I don't want to be dramatic, but this is the story you read about in the paper when the bright kid who had everything going for him ends it. His life's goal is to be a physician and a moment's indiscretion might very well have ended that for him, so on top of feeling overwhelming remorse for a moral misstep, he sees his life's plan disintegrate in front of his eyes. Regardless of why, that's big and that's scary. Some empathy would be called for on this thread, if not in the admissions process. Being honest with the OP is helpful. Telling the OP to get his dishonorable ass out is not only unproductive but quite likely destructive, and I'm not sure why anybody would do that, much less somebody in a service profession.

How about a student who cheats on a med school exam? You think they do a complete 180?

 

[WillburCobb]

on a side note, who the hell takes orgo their junior year

On a side note, who the hell calls it "orgo"? Pretty sure there's only one "O" in organic...


P.S. I took Ochem I and II the summer before year 6 of undergrad.

 

[deleted480308]

On a side note, who the hell calls it "orgo"? Pretty sure there's only one "O" in organic...


P.S. I took Ochem I and II the summer before year 6 of undergrad.

It wad common verbal shorthand at my undergrad

 

[WillburCobb]

It wad common verbal shorthand at my undergrad

I know it's a regional thing, just like pop=soda=coke. Something about " Orgo" just irks me for some reason.

 

[jl lin]

All I can tell you is that at my university, you signed forms, more than once, about commitment to academic integrity and consequences for breaching that integrity. Those people seemed very tight about the issues--very serious.

I am sure I will annoy some folks by saying this, but sometimes one benefits from having a strong faith and believing that nothing you ever do is not seen. Also, if I am not cutting in in the work, then I would think that I would need help. I am paying all this money already. If I am not getting something, I going to beat down doors, so to speak, until I get what I need. Once we go to the slippery slope of taking shortcuts, well, you lose something worse than a grade.

Are you writing this b/c you really feel the wrong in what you have done and so forth, or is it about your redemption chances. Cause in order to meet the redemption criteria, you have to turn away from the behavior but the thought-processes that preceded the behavior.

The hard reality is that the action was more than a mere "indiscretion." It goes to character and integrity. It's sad; b/c a less than stellar grade can possibly be improved upon or the course may even be retaken. And I am not talking grade replacement. Though taking the crappy grade and then repeating it can still help with bringing up the averaged grade in the course taken twice--with hopefully better understanding of the material. It's a sad situation.

 

[optimistic3]

orgo is a very common shorthand where I went to school as well

 

[user12]

at my school, we didn't refer to organic chemistry as "orgo" either. we called it "death."

 

[Spirit of the Student Doc]

at my school, we didn't refer to organic chemistry as "orgo" either. we called it "death."

I don't understand, clearly general chem is harder........ Organic chem (while I still have to take the actual 1 and 2) is all carbon based....

 

[deleted480308]

I don't understand, clearly general chem is harder........ Organic chem (while I still have to take the actual 1 and 2) is all carbon based....

I found gen chem to be easy

 

[Spirit of the Student Doc]

I found gen chem to be easy

Not trying to say it isn't..... but in comparison (1&2 for both) organic chem is the easier one.

 

[deleted480308]

Not trying to say it isn't..... but in comparison (1&2 for both) organic chem is the easier one.

Maybe i'm weird but i had a much harder time with orgo

 

[Dr.Jekyll75]

My orgo 1 professor was the seat of the chem department, she was harsh. She would laugh during our exams . Long story short just like everyone else said, apologize and ask how you can prove to her it wont happen again.

 

[Dr.Jekyll75]

Maybe i'm weird but i had a much harder time with orgo

I got a C+ my first exam but then i bought a supplemental book that really helped out and id recommend to anyone. Organic chemistry as a second language. I pulled out an A- first and an A second semester. That A- is probably the hardest i have ever worked all undergrad

 

[Spirit of the Student Doc]

Maybe i'm weird but i had a much harder time with orgo

No, I think I'm the odd one. But I will say seemingly every Ochem teacher is a hardass. I blame it more on the teacher than the content.

 

[jakeislove]

Obviously the OP shouldn't do anything to sound entitled. But there are clearly some people out there who lack maturity and would rather spin the wheel on an investigation (with the hope that it is dismissed on a lack of evidence) rather than taking an F in the course. My suggestion was in the context of setting up a dialogue with the professor to attempt to find common ground on an incredibly unfortunate situation, rather than shifting blame or demonstrating entitlement.

Someone who cheats shouldn't get to pick their own switch.

Putting pressure on a professor for special consideration (due to pre-med status) is wrong.

In a situation like this: Sincerely apologize, be contrite, show humility, accept responsibility for the action, and hope the offended party/system gives them another shot.

 

[Promethean]

Very unfortunate situation. Every one has cheated in some way throughout college, it's just a matter of being unlucky. It definitely hurts considering the competitive field - it's just an easy way to weed out an applicant in a pile of thousands of applications. Might need a gap year to prove something more or less.

No, many have chosen to cheat at some point... but not everyone. There are actually people whose integrity means more to them than a grade.

EDIT: I responded before reading the rest of the thread and seeing that (thankfully!) there were others who felt that the generalization that "everybody cheats" is false.

I do hope that OP gets this sorted, that he is truly contrite and his professor understanding.

 

[Ismet]

I don't understand, clearly general chem is harder........ Organic chem (while I still have to take the actual 1 and 2) is all carbon based....

Wait are you commenting on the difficulty of a class you haven't taken? I think most people side with ochem being harder than gen chem.

 

[GomersGoToGround]

Wait are you commenting on the difficulty of a class you haven't taken? I think most people side with ochem being harder than gen chem.

And more fun

 

[Spirit of the Student Doc]

Wait are you commenting on the difficulty of a class you haven't taken? I think most people side with ochem being harder than gen chem.

I took a lower level.... that didn't transfer for both (during the tech program).

-Organic Chem is pretty straightforward

 

[GomersGoToGround]

I don't understand, clearly general chem is harder........ Organic chem (while I still have to take the actual 1 and 2) is all carbon based....

Being 'Carbon-based' says nothing about the difficulty of a topic.

 

[Spirit of the Student Doc]

Being 'Carbon-based' says nothing about the difficulty of a topic.

No rote memorization, no math, straight logical.

Here's a article you guys may like.
http://science-beta.slashdot.org/st...hemistry-is-so-difficult-for-pre-med-students

(I could be way off.... just taken a intro course in both.... Ochem was just simpler and the teacher was an a Z)

 

[GomersGoToGround]

No rote memorization, no math, straight logical.

Here's a article you guys may like.
http://science-beta.slashdot.org/st...hemistry-is-so-difficult-for-pre-med-students

(I could be way off.... just taken a intro course in both.... Ochem was just simpler and the teacher was an a Z)

Carbon based tells you that you will be working with molecules containing carbon. It doesn't make sense to say that carbon is or isn't logical.

Lots to memorize. Application is logic, yes, but you have to know all of the functional groups, memorize reagents, mechanisms, etc.

Logic doesn't mean you sit down, get a problem, and it automatically makes sense to you because it's "logical". You have to learn and memorize the concepts beforehand.

Not to mention lab work, in which there's much to memorize about interpreting data.

 

[IlDestriero]

On another note, I don't think I misread your post, IlDestriero! Man, where's the compassion they're going for in physicians these days? One impulsive mistake as a 19-year-old makes you personally dishonorable, kicked out of school, and permanently barred from entering a profession you've been yearning to join? Yikes.

That's a real honor code. Many universities have them.
Lie, cheat or steal, or tolerate those who do, and you will suffer the single sanction. Immediate expulsion.
It requires intent and there is a severity threshold, but if you violate it you're out.
I always thought that it was reasonable. Some think that it is draconian, but it is fair. If you want to graduate from a leading university and are spending that kind of money, it is nice to know that the degrees were earned fairly and the graduates have been held to the highest standards.
Honor is important in the military as well, one of the many things that lead me to serve.
If that doesn't appeal to you, you better make sure your university lacks an honor code with teeth, and don't whine when Joe the class clown who never studies gets a bunch of unearned A's and takes your summer internship or med school spot.

 

[IlDestriero]

To me, that is every bit as bad as one instance of impulsive cheating, and I think even worse because I knowingly hurt someone. Should I be permanently barred from med school for that?

You don't get banned for being a jackass, but you do for being dishonest and/or untrustworthy.
One of the people in my intern class was fired for having poor judgement and being dishonest. Great on paper, but deemed unsafe and untrainable because of his nature and lack of insight. He is not a practicing physician today.