How non-traditional are YOU?

[MetalloBetalactamase]

Is it too honest to admit that this is partially the reason I am interested in Hospice and Palliative care? I feel like chronic conditions level the playing field in terms of one's past actions/noncompliance and allow us to just focus on making today as comfortable as possible regardless of who you are and what horrible life choices you made/will make.

Although, I am sure it can be frustrating when compliance/noncompliance is the factor that determines whether a patient can benefit from long term palliative care or only short term hospice.

You have my admiration for bracing one of the most problematic parts of the modern healthcare system head on. We are all largely anonymous here, how would you handle a terminal patient who wanted to select a definitive end-of-life date and methodology of terminus?

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[FutureDrB]

@MetalloBetalactamase the last thing I want to do is send you into a blind rage (and we are totally hijacking this forum with this off-topic discussion), but you're going to have to put me in the category of "old hacks" who blames it on poor decision making. I completely agree that eating healthy (at least the cost of fresh fruits and vegetables) is more expensive in most cases, but a can of tuna fish is the same price as a $99 cent cheeseburger (and can actually feed two people instead of one). Also, it's been proven that frozen vegetables are just as healthy as fresh (as long as you steam them). Again, a pound of frozen peas is less than a dollar.

We're not going to fix the problem until people start taking personal responsibility for their own lives. A big part of it is educating the public though, especially children.

 

[MetalloBetalactamase]

@FutureDrB. I am firmly convinced we will have to alter the foodscape. If you blame the individual consumer, I blame the individual businessman and corporate bootlickers who made a series of decisions to flood our food scape with Honeybuns and Hot Pockets. Many foodstuffs sold are carefully calculated to have a seductive mouthfeel, and a panoply of tastes that peas and tuna can't compete with. Our health won't improve as a nation until we remove these types of foods.

Personal education will only take us so far, we are ultimately primates and vast complex arrays of predictable biochemical reactions. Gluconeogenis is not under conscious control, but the willful marketing of disease causing cereal products, candy, and soda pop is. If you want to believe personal responsibility plays a role fine, but by that measure you must include the people selling this sickening diet in addition to those people eating it.

And yes, the thread is hijacked, but I couldn't find Ethical Issues for The Pre DO Student as a thread.

 

[FutureDrB]

@MetalloBetalactamase So the solution is to ban/remove from society everything that's unhealthy for you? I enjoy a nice juicy burger on occasion and have been known to eat my fair share of Skittles. But, I know that a consistent diet of these types of foods will have a negative impact on my health in the long run. Let me add that I am close to the poverty level when it comes to income. However, I still manage to feed myself and my daughter a diet consisting of healthy foods. Granted, it's not always easy or convenient; driving through McDonald's certainly takes less time that preparing a meal.

This may come across as pessimistic, but yes, humans by nature are deceitful and unfortunately money and corporate profits do drive our society. Why else would manufacturers put additional addictive contents in things like cigarettes? I just think we have a better chance of success addressing the issue at the micro level (individuals), versus trying to slay the giant (corporations).

@FutureDrBAnd yes, the thread is hijacked, but I couldn't find Ethical Issues for The Pre DO Student as a thread.

I'm all for starting one.

 

[MetalloBetalactamase]

@MetalloBetalactamase So the solution is to ban/remove from society everything that's unhealthy for you? I enjoy a nice juicy burger on occasion and have been known to eat my fair share of Skittles. But, I know that a consistent diet of these types of foods will have a negative impact on my health in the long run. Let me add that I am close to the poverty level when it comes to income. However, I still manage to feed myself and my daughter a diet consisting of healthy foods. Granted, it's not always easy or convenient; driving through McDonald's certainly takes less time that preparing a meal.

This may come across as pessimistic, but yes, humans by nature are deceitful and unfortunately money and corporate profits do drive our society. Why else would manufacturers put additional addictive contents in things like cigarettes? I just think we have a better chance of success addressing the issue at the micro level (individuals), versus trying to slay the giant (corporations).



I'm all for starting one.

Ah...cigarettes. The industry that payed hundreds of billions in settlement monies when it was found that there product was dangerous and contributed to numerous deadly diseases. Monies that went to lowering the number of smokers and prevent new smokers from being recruited. I might be happy to let bad food stay provided that the companies that manufacture it pay settlement monies like the tobacco companies did and still do. Let's see Mars, and Kraft, and MCDonalds pay for heart disease, loss of productive income, and T2D. The cost of cigarettes is closing in on 10 bucks a pack. If junk was priced like cigarettes, healthy eating would ....mmmm encouraged the way high tobacco costs encourage not smoking. I feel obligated as a physician to try and slay these giants, it's a part of my treatment plan for all my patients.

 

[FutureDrB]

@MetalloBetalactamase Okay, now you're sending ME into a blind rage. Haha. The fact that cigarette companies had to pay out settlements to smokers is one of the most ludicrous injustices in the history of our society. Equally as ridiculous as the people who've won lawsuits for spilling hot coffee on themselves and blaming the company.

You honestly believe that if you eat poorly and develop a medical condition as a result, it's the food manufacturers fault?

Let's directly relate this to our future profession. Why are medical insurance premiums so high? Not because insurance companies are out to rip off consumers... I'll concede that part of it is due to the ridiculous cost of medical procedures, but it's mainly due to the fact that lawsuits like the aforementioned have opened the door to people suing doctors and insurance companies for just about anything.

Blatant negligence is one thing, mistakes are another.

 

[jl lin]

I might come down harder on adults if we lived in a society where fresh fruits, vegetables and lean meats were commensurate in cost, and as readily available, to the costs and availability of the typical obesgenic American diet - one made from soda pop, Mac and cheese, and the dollar menu on the local fast food joint. Legislation and policy have created subsides that favor a marketplace full of disease friendly foods. Eating is not optional, and poverty and inequality in America are profound and growing. Obesegenic diets are cost friendly and simultaneously deficient in micronutrients.

We've gone from a society where morbid obesity was rare (1950s) to one where it has become the rule. I want to vomit every time someone suggests that the entire responsibility lies on the consumer. Nothing sends me into a blind rage faster than hearing all of those scientifically incorrect old hacks about "poor decision making" and "lack of will power." Our willpower and decision making power did not suddenly mutate from the 1950s, the human population of America was and still is in Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium. Greed and overweening corporate power have sculpted a marketplace that is in and of itself pathological and causative of human pathologies. We have "cancer of the food supply", the co-morbidities of which are a host of genuine human illnesses.

Keeping that in mind, along with the influx of online health information powered by a second industry that makes money off of fear and wrong information, I am inclined to be very forgiving of the adults around me. I understand that the forces that shape their lives and influence their health are not under their control.

Willpower is a strictly extra-cellular phenomenon and one you cross the cell membrane the laws of nature supersede cognitive barriers.

Sounds like you want to go into public health.

People in this country often do simply choose, daily, mind you, to make unhealthy choices. That's the reality, and the goal is to influence them to make better choices. Even when give food stamps, sadly some of them on assistance buy a plethora of unhealthy stuff or sell food stamps for worse things. Seen it many, many times. So have many others.

Our nation has become a nation that enables problematic behavior amongst a number of people.

 

[MetalloBetalactamase]

@MetalloBetalactamase Okay, now you're sending ME into a blind rage. Haha. The fact that cigarette companies had to pay out settlements to smokers is one of the most ludicrous injustices in the history of our society. Equally as ridiculous as the people who've won lawsuits for spilling hot coffee on themselves and blaming the company.

You honestly believe that if you eat poorly and develop a medical condition as a result, it's the food manufacturers fault?

Let's directly relate this to our future profession. Why are medical insurance premiums so high? Not because insurance companies are out to rip off consumers... I'll concede that part of it is due to the ridiculous cost of medical procedures, but it's mainly due to the fact that lawsuits like the aforementioned have opened the door to people suing doctors and insurance companies for just about anything.

Blatant negligence is one thing, mistakes are another.

The tobacco companies paid out because they were aware that their product caused lung cancer and they lied about it. Many processed foods and food high in processed carbohydrates contribute to cancer, heart disease, and T2D, and big Food has likewise lied about that. Let big Food, and big Ag compensate our patients for their portion of the liability. That should help defer the costs without burdening Drs. or patients. It would also encourage responsible product development, portion sizing, and marketing on the part of those corporate entities and the individuals that comprise them. It would only serve to develop personal responsibility in businessmen.

Sounds like you want to go into public health.

People in this country often do simply choose, daily, mind you, to make unhealthy choices. That's the reality, and the goal is to influence them to make better choices. Even when give food stamps, sadly some of them on assistance buy a plethora of unhealthy stuff or sell food stamps for worse things. Seen it many, many times. So have many others.

Our nation has become a nation that enables problematic behavior amongst a number of people.

I stand by my assertion that if we blame the individual consumer we can, and must by moral obligation, by precedence blame the individuals involved in marketing, production, legislation, and retail. These four groups are not faceless bodiless entities, but are comprised of individuals all of whom need to make personal choices to refrain from flooding the market with disease causing products.

We have not hesitated to blame food manufacturers who placed lead and arsenic in their products to increase profit by increasing shelf life, manufacturers who persisted in this behavior even when confronted with the toxic nature of lead and arsenic. Sugar and fat in too high a proportion are also toxic, and food companies who knowingly lace their products with both or either should be held liable for the tortuous behavior.

 

[jl lin]

IDK Metal. We have worked to the bone to get parents from disadvantage situations what their children need---and then some. It's a mentality that has been built into some folks.
I could give a zillion examples. Life is not easy for anyone, but it's a heck of a lot better here than it is for billions sleeping on dirt floors and having to eat of those dirt floors in too many areas of the world.

Overcome some entitlement and the "this is as good as it gets" mentality. That's the key. And it is hard; b/c it's not the path of least resistance. It's about fighting through and getting to the road less travelled.

I'm all for getting rid of food deserts. I can show you where alternative grocers have been put in place in some cities. The slum bars are still filled, and the convenience "chip and tobacco" centers still get a lot of attention. I know those that work in customer service and can show you where government-given monies go to sodas and junk. I can show you moms that thought putting Cheetos on their kids' paper plates was dinner--all whilst she was packing away her cartonS of cigarettes.

When you must interact with the community and home settings, you see it. No judgments or condemnations. The mentalities have to change.. How do you do that? You influence the best that you can. Even though it's hard, people have to take accountability for what's theirs--what they have--and what they can do--whatever it may be.

Even those with mental disorders must, when they are able, take responsibility for their disorders, medications, their lives--which is tough--depending on the particular disorder.

Finally, we have to consider how the economics works. What drives the markets?
Yes marketers are a part of it as are companies; but people choose with whatever purchasing power they have, what they will buy, what the markets demand. Until they see and accept and make demands for healthier things, the markets will stay were the markets can continue--b/c that is how economics works. And this is an issue of freedom both on the large scale and the individual one.

 

[hotrodsduo]

You have my admiration for bracing one of the most problematic parts of the modern healthcare system head on. We are all largely anonymous here, how would you handle a terminal patient who wanted to select a definitive end-of-life date and methodology of terminus?

Having a Christian world view, I believe the time and mode of a person's death is beyond the scope of what I am here to help with.

 

[Judson]

I'm 23 going on 24 Just received my B.S in Health Education, I have a 4 months old son who I carried through my senior year of college. I am a single mom because the father of my child was initially married. I am from the Philippines and the rest of my family is still back home. My financial status.....working my butt off. Recently applied to post-bac program to take organic chem,physics, genetics and to also get help with preparing for the application process. By the time I get into medical school I will be 26 years old mys son will be 2 years old. & I'm most likely going to depend on government money & loans to get there.

Rooting for you!!

 

[wrkntwdsd]

24, going on 25 in October. I have a B.S. in Hospitality Management, which is far from a science background. Two years out of college and now in the process of looking through which post-bacc programs I should apply to. Hoping to be matriculated into med school by 29, at the latest!

 

[rangerdad]

I'm 32 yrs old currently in my freshman year at a CC. After 14+ yrs of military service my wife and I decided to pursue our dream of studying medicine.
I served as a Navy Corpsman and Surgical tech for 5 years including company deployment with 2 MARDIV. SEMPER FI MARINES!
I then transferred to the Army and served 9 years, six of them as a Army Ranger, RLTW!
I applied and became an FA Warrant Officer but that could not stop me of dreaming about becoming a physician so now I'm on the path.
I have a 7 yr old daughter and I spent the little time I have out of school with her (full time gymnast!)
I do not plan to work and currently searching for options on where to apply and complete my BS in BIOLOGY. UCs are the obvious options.
I am planning on doing free-clinic volunteers hours, surgical internship, pre-health conference, and maybe one research as ECs .
Very motivating knowing that I'm not alone. Good luck!

 

[shayla1013]

. How non-traditional are you?

E

x

 

[adkred]

I'm 40, and still have two years of pre-reqs. Hoping to matriculate in 2017. Finished all of my core classes years ago, so it's pretty much all science from here on out.

 

[Fedaykin]

Was unemployed at 24, freshly laid off from a job I didn't like looking and failing to replace it with another such job. Always wanted to go to medical school but just didn't cut it in undergraduate and ended up with a 2.5 GPA. Threw my hands up, said eff it, and put together a long, expensive, and ridiculously circuitous plan that sounded like it might work.

Today: Learned that the problems I had in undergraduate were from depression and a sleeping disorder, both of which have been since diagnosed and I'm being treated successfully for. Working on a PhD in a program I love. Med school will come in a few years, after the PhD, possibly after a post-doc depending on what opportunities I find for a post-doc.

 

[ls2892]

I am 27 with a BS in Sociology. I am currently in the Air Force as a Medic. I am ACLS, BLS, CPR, EMT-B certified and I have worked in several areas of the hospital (to include labor and delivery, flight medicine, the ER, family health, lab, and soon internal medicine). I am planning to apply 2016 and will cross my fingers that I can get accepted into my choice of school!

 

[UTsksk]

26 y/o incoming first year, but will be 27 in a few months. Have a wife who is a RN and a 5 year old daughter. Sometimes I feel good about my age that it's an advantage. Sometimes I feel old because I have already met some classmates that came straight out of college that never had to worry about bills.

 

[FMSIIM1]

I'll be 40 this month. I guess that qualifies me as nontrad... I'm an Army vet, spent 20 years on an ambulance, with the last 14 as a Fire/EMS Lieutenant. I've been married for 17 years and have 2 sons (14 and 13). I took my MCAT last week, and am applying this cycle.

After spending more than a decade serving a community facing a severe physician deficit, I decided to do something more than just encourage others to pursue medicine. My home is facing a 38% shortage on the number of physicians needed, based on a 2011 study. I began to pick up patients that listed the ER physicians as their PCP.

I realized that the part of my job I enjoyed the most was caring for patients. I never considered medicine before, I didn't know anyone like me that became a physician. I'm URM, formerly homeless (as a child) and fomerly a foster child. I went to the military, became a medic, and made a logical progression to civilian EMS and Fire Service. Once I realized that being a physician might be possible, and joined that with the need of my community and support of my wife and children...2 years later, here I am. I am hopeful for a good result, but my department will allow me to return if I do so within the next 2 years.

 

[ddmbmom]

All of 46, married 23 years and a 10 and 12 year old. Current dietitian specializing in diabetes management, former pro triathlete. As MettaloB writes above, I have just had it with trying to fix every single obese patient of mine. I have heard every single excuse under the sun. I could write a book. As a family practice physician, I will hold a greater responsibility for their overall medical care, and I surely will continue to be their "cheerleader" in living an optimally healthy lifestyle, but I just can't do that, only, anymore. I work in a physician-supervised weight management clinic and I just can't believe how people write out thousand dollar check after thousand dollar check ( or credit card) to use our services that only last while they are on the program and even though I try so very very hard to educate them on the lifestyle thing, the reduced calorie thing, the absolute daily exercise thing, they won't do it. I just don't get it. And when its the young lady who claims "cleaning lady" or "carwasher" at the local carwash, so I can estimate their income because I personally employ this professional/use this service myself, I think, how are you making your house payment or car payment or even buying your kids new clothes and school supplies at the start of the school year...

 

[FutureDrB]

All of 46, married 23 years and a 10 and 12 year old. Current dietitian specializing in diabetes management, former pro triathlete. As MettaloB writes above, I have just had it with trying to fix every single obese patient of mine. I have heard every single excuse under the sun. I could write a book. As a family practice physician, I will hold a greater responsibility for their overall medical care, and I surely will continue to be their "cheerleader" in living an optimally healthy lifestyle, but I just can't do that, only, anymore. I work in a physician-supervised weight management clinic and I just can't believe how people write out thousand dollar check after thousand dollar check ( or credit card) to use our services that only last while they are on the program and even though I try so very very hard to educate them on the lifestyle thing, the reduced calorie thing, the absolute daily exercise thing, they won't do it. I just don't get it. And when its the young lady who claims "cleaning lady" or "carwasher" at the local carwash, so I can estimate their income because I personally employ this professional/use this service myself, I think, how are you making your house payment or car payment or even buying your kids new clothes and school supplies at the start of the school year...

Thanks for this. Becoming a dietitian was always my fall-back plan if medicine didn't work out. However, after researching it and hearing story after story like this, the career field began to look fairly unappealing.

 

[Mad Jack]

So nontraditional that if I told a traditional student my life story they probably wouldn't believe it. It's been a long, strange journey getting here.

 

[Polkadotfan]

21. 9 month old baby. Wife. Moving too much to do school/settle down. Will probably be at least 3+ years before I even can graduate with a BS let alone apply for med school

 

[Fedaykin]

I'm very near to a section of this chart with no data.

https://www.aamc.org/download/321518/data/2013factstable25-4.pdf

 

[Why Not MD?]

I'm very near to a section of this chart with no data.

https://www.aamc.org/download/321518/data/2013factstable25-4.pdf

Trying to think of a witty remark. Failing miserably. Would rather sympathize.

 

[iceet]

That means you're near this group, and they had a 100% acceptance rate

 

[Why Not MD?]

That means you're near this group, and they had a 100% acceptance rate

That's a fair profile of me throughout college: always late/absent, assignments either late or not turned in, but killed on tests.

 

[Doogie17]

I am the ultimate non-traditional pre-med student. Older non trads in their 30s and 40s are now a dime a dozen, lol.

My university has me classified as non-trad since I never went to high school, nor GED, nor anything else, not even homeschool. I got into univ at 13, did 20 credits one semester as a Freshman, worked full time at Children hospt all summer at 15 yo, went on foreign medical mission at 16, doing 2 years honors research and thesis, dual chem and bio majors, now a 17 yo Senior awaiting MCAT score to come out next week. Still have a 4.0gpa since I do not have a girlfriend to mess it up, though I am 6'3" tall and good looking, lol

 

[D4C]

So nontraditional that if I told a traditional student my life story they probably wouldn't believe it. It's been a long, strange journey getting here.

Surrender this story to me!

 

[D4C]

I am the ultimate non-traditional pre-med student. Older non trads in their 30s and 40s are now a dime a dozen, lol.

My university has me classified as non-trad since I never went to high school, nor GED, nor anything else, not even homeschool. I got into univ at 13, did 20 credits one semester as a Freshman, worked full time at Children hospt all summer at 15 yo, went on foreign medical mission at 16, doing 2 years honors research and thesis, dual chem and bio majors, now a 17 yo Senior awaiting MCAT score to come out next week. Still have a 4.0gpa since I do not have a girlfriend to mess it up, though I am 6'3" tall and good looking, lol

Quite the tale señor.

 

[Doogie17]

Quite the tale señor.

all true. GOOGLE- youngest student univ of arkansas-fayetteville, a newspaper article will come up from two years ago, about me as a 14 yo Freshman taking 20 credits; or look at a 2013 Razorback yearbook- two full pages on me. I don't like to be called a liar, since I am not.

 

[gassyPants]

I started medical school at 32, after a computer programming career that I was good at. I had a child after my third year of medical school, and took a year off. I'm now 39 and a PGY-3.

Honestly, I'm regretting it. I don't hate the work, but I look around at all my friends my age who aren't in medicine, and they have crazy things like evenings! and weekends! They don't have to take ridiculous career-hinging tests every six months or so, interspersed with q4 year applications/personal statements/the next big hoop/the threat of moving. They have lots of time with their kids, and they see movies. These days it all just seems like wasted time away from my family. Unless you are in primary care, jobs are disappearing, and the money is drying up. I'm going to be left with a huge debt and not actually making much more than I did before I started.

 

[Why Not MD?]

Attractiveness is subjective. HAHA jk

 

[Fedaykin]

That means you're near this group, and they had a 100% acceptance rate

Well, you identified the correct row on the chart.

 

[mms62]

38 divorced mother of three teenagers. Two of the three have significant medical issues (actually posting from a hospital because of post-op complications). B.S. in math/biology, M.S. in math, concentration statistics and probability theory. Ph.D coursework in biostats. Current career in banking (analytics). I'm looking into programs to retake the prereqs, as all my coursework is over ten years old. If I don't go for med school, I will finish my Ph.D. My kids are the inspiration for medical school.

 

[beingandfluffyness]

Not so non trad in age... But more in course.
I started off pre med, was pre med for 2 years (and a 3.6 GPA to boot), quit pre med to do philosophy ("What are you going to do with that?! " answer: Law), had an internship at the law school, prepped for the LSAT, signed up for the LSAT, un-signed up for the LSAT, graduated summa, got a job in sales, hated a job in sales, would rather eat Ramen for weeks than do a job in sales, quit a job in sales, interned at psychology practice ("Maybe I could do this..."), did not enjoy clinical work incredibly much, decided to go back to school for pre-med goodness and research opportunities.
Well, maybe it's not so crazy since I've been in school and am still young. I guess it's just the fact that it's all the major stuff happened in the last 3 months to a year that throws me.
There are a few other fun internships in there (I considered being a museum curator at one point), but that's the gist.
-B&F

 

[vc7777]

I am the ultimate non-traditional pre-med student. Older non trads in their 30s and 40s are now a dime a dozen, lol.

My university has me classified as non-trad since I never went to high school, nor GED, nor anything else, not even homeschool. I got into univ at 13, did 20 credits one semester as a Freshman, worked full time at Children hospt all summer at 15 yo, went on foreign medical mission at 16, doing 2 years honors research and thesis, dual chem and bio majors, now a 17 yo Senior awaiting MCAT score to come out next week. Still have a 4.0gpa since I do not have a girlfriend to mess it up, though I am 6'3" tall and good looking, lol

You forgot to wax poetically about how modest you've been despite all of your good fortune and uninterrupted prosperity.

-one of the dime-a-dozen gang

 

[jl lin]

@MetalloBetalactamase the last thing I want to do is send you into a blind rage (and we are totally hijacking this forum with this off-topic discussion), but you're going to have to put me in the category of "old hacks" who blames it on poor decision making. I completely agree that eating healthy (at least the cost of fresh fruits and vegetables) is more expensive in most cases, but a can of tuna fish is the same price as a $99 cent cheeseburger (and can actually feed two people instead of one). Also, it's been proven that frozen vegetables are just as healthy as fresh (as long as you steam them). Again, a pound of frozen peas is less than a dollar.

We're not going to fix the problem until people start taking personal responsibility for their own lives. A big part of it is educating the public though, especially children.

Sorry to jump on the hijack; but in general--that is, considering some exceptions, I have to agree w/ this, "We're not going to fix the problem until people start taking personal responsibility for their own lives." But keep in mind, much of the entertainment industry, which influences people way too much, does not show consistent healthy lifestyle choices--holistically speaking. OK off the hijack.

 

[jl lin]

You forgot to wax poetically about how modest you've been despite all of your good fortune and uninterrupted prosperity.

-one of the dime-a-dozen gang

Yes, but the kid is simply an atypical "non-trad," if you will. Humility and growth may come with time, tough experiences, and a willingness to learn. God bless him in his endeavors, but there is much to be said about being seasoned by life and some big cans of whoop azz.