Knowing you want to go into psych during med school

[Ibid]

Thanks for the likes to everyone who took my turn of phrase in good spirit....

The practice of psychiatry is inherently problematic.... if one doesn't realise that at some point then someone has their blinkers on....

A lot of the critique comes from people who have been subject to "psychiatric services"..... Frankly a lot of those people have been treated terribly by any measure and the logic that justified that terrible treatment remains the logic that justifies so called treatments today. Personally I'm glad that sections of the psychiatric community are willing to engage the people who have undoubtably been harmed by psychiatry and take their concerns seriously and not dismiss them because they don't come from a professional group.

---

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[vistaril]

A lot of the critique comes from people who have been subject to "psychiatric services"..... Frankly a lot of those people have been treated terribly by any measure and the logic that justified that terrible treatment remains the logic that justifies so called treatments today.

quality post

 

[st2205]

Thanks for the likes to everyone who took my turn of phrase in good spirit....

The practice of psychiatry is inherently problematic.... if one doesn't realise that at some point then someone has their blinkers on....

A lot of the critique comes from people who have been subject to "psychiatric services"..... Frankly a lot of those people have been treated terribly by any measure and the logic that justified that terrible treatment remains the logic that justifies so called treatments today. Personally I'm glad that sections of the psychiatric community are willing to engage the people who have undoubtably been harmed by psychiatry and take their concerns seriously and not dismiss them because they don't come from a professional group.

Psychiatry being a quite broad field and all, do you have any specifics in mind?

 

[Ibid]

Psychiatry being a quite broad field and all, do you have any specifics in mind?

Well the harm done is so well documented its hardly worth going over.... it would make rather a long list. But your point that since the confinement that took place in Europe starting roughly three hundred years ago, psychiatry being born in the asylum... the logic of psychiatry has grown,expanded and infected many areas of life.... not least getting itself bound up in the criminal justice system to the extent that is barely possible to distinguish where the boundary between criminality and so called mental illness begins and end.

Arguably if psychiatry is a legitimate branch of medicine extortion is a legitimate form of insurance....

I'm kidding....

It would probably be easier if you pointed out the parts of the broad field of psychiatry that you feel are not problematic...or even what you feel the purpose of the mental health system is. By that I mean how it actually functions rather than what ones aspirations for it might be...

btw i'm not suggesting that no one is ever helped by the mental health system but to be honest I do think that is something of a miracle really..... being detained and being drugged by force isn't the same as winning the lottery....

 

[erg923]

Well the harm done is so well documented its hardly worth going over.... it would make rather a long list. But your point that since the confinement that took place in Europe starting roughly three hundred years ago, psychiatry being born in the asylum... the logic of psychiatry has grown,expanded and infected many areas of life.... not least getting itself bound up in the criminal justice system to the extent that is barely possible to distinguish where the boundary between criminality and so called mental illness begins and end.

Arguably if psychiatry is a legitimate branch of medicine extortion is a legitimate form of insurance....

I'm kidding....

It would probably be easier if you pointed out the parts of the broad field of psychiatry that you feel are not problematic...or even what you feel the purpose of the mental health system is. By that I mean how it actually functions rather than what ones aspirations for it might be...

btw i'm not suggesting that no one is ever helped by the mental health system but to be honest I do think that is something of a miracle really..... being detained and being drugged by force isn't the same as winning the lottery....

What is your opinion of non medical mental health interventions to assist with mild to moderate depression, anxiety, PTSD, substance abuse, interpersonal functioning, etcetera?

I have been going through a period lately where I am seeing a lot of distress that is simply due to dysfunctional families, relationships and unavoidable life stressors (lack of money, unemployment or dysfunctional work environments, interacting with other humans) all of whom are continuously told, both explicitly and implicitly, that they are suffering from "depression" and need to seek "treatment." I often wonder if I am doing them a service or disservice my reinforcing this flawed conceptualization.

 

[Armadillos]

Seeing as we all are airing mental health grievances. In recent news, apparently two psychologists helped develop the torture program at gitmo and founded basically a torture for hire company bringing in 81 million from CIA. So disgusting.
http://www.sltrib.com/home/1933958-155/story.html

 

[Nasrudin]

I don't even know. I really shouldn't be. It's just during the behavioral med class sooo many people were bitching about how they hated it/blew it off as pointless and how the professor was worthless because he wasn't a "real doctor" (he's a PhD - just like almost every other one of our professors ). Idk. Basically I've let stupid shet get to me much more than it used to.

You make good points of course.

<333

Touchpause--many of us felt short changed in things that interested us in medical school. It's part of the reason why psychiatry is a 4 year residency--we don't start learning it until training in psychiatry begins. It's also true that many of us are drawn to different things than the mainstream of medical culture is.

I didn't go to medical school to become a psychiatrist but locked in on it as the most likely candidate before clerkships started and it does create a mental friction of compartementalizing your career intentions too soon. You have to dig deeper and find a curiosity about all that other stuff. You need to tackle those obstacles and problems to advance each level.

Just forget for now that you know where you're headed. I can tell you know, as I'm saying my farewells to general medical experience that there is a lot to be missed. And a lot of wonderful things I'm glad I experienced and wished I paid greater attention to. You'll only be an M2 once. You'll only take step 1 once--hopefully. You'll only be catching warm wet babies as they enter the world once. You'll only be shoulder to shoulder with surgeons once. Etc.

But you'll be a psychiatrist for the rest of your career. Smell deeply of those blossoms. Even as they spring from a pile of poop.

 

[Ibid]

What is your opinion of non medical mental health interventions to assist with mild to moderate depression, anxiety, PTSD, substance abuse, interpersonal functioning, etcetera?

I have been going through a period lately where I am seeing a lot of distress that is simply due to dysfunctional families, relationships and unavoidable life stressors (lack of money, unemployment or dysfunctional work environments, interacting with other humans) all of whom are continuously told, both explicitly and implicitly, that they are suffering from "depression" and need to seek "treatment." I often wonder if I am doing them a service or disservice my reinforcing this flawed conceptualization.

On alternate conceptualisations you might be interested in this...
http://www.bps.org.uk/networks-and-...ogy/understanding-psychosis-and-schizophrenia

https://www.bps.org.uk/system/files...rstanding_psychosis_-_final_19th_nov_2014.pdf

(I prefer the term unshared reality rather than appearing out of touch but thats me...)

Id say the important thing is that people are enabled to put what ever their problems are in their proper context.... have out sight rather than insight if you like and thats whats important imo. The narrative of "you have depression" is so pervasive in society at large that attempting to sell the idea that some one is not depressed or that their problems might not be entirely an internal matter that it could feel like a dismissal or that the therapist isn't taking them seriously. That depression (its not alone in this) is largely a matter of self report and its tautological nature doesn't help either.... anxiety suffering from the same problems...

Ive seen a psychiatry text book from the 1970's that suggested that a woman with a difficult husband who was resistant to changing his behaviour should have a lobotomy to enable her to cope and save her marriage......

Psychological therapies are not without their ethical problems but they pale into comparison compared to the levels of coercion involved in much of psychiatry.

 

[Ibid]

Seeing as we all are airing mental health grievances. In recent news, apparently two psychologists helped develop the torture program at gitmo and founded basically a torture for hire company bringing in 81 million from CIA. So disgusting.
http://www.sltrib.com/home/1933958-155/story.html

Terrible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Ewen_Cameron
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Midnight_Climax

The glowing obituary is enough to make anyone sick up imo
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1843238/

 

[Ibid]

I have been going through a period lately where I am seeing a lot of distress that is simply due to dysfunctional families, relationships and unavoidable life stressors (lack of money, unemployment or dysfunctional work environments, interacting with other humans).

imo the long term answer to this is to answer the question "what might be the mental health equivalent of clean water and sanitation?"

Mental health workers are often in the position of people who mop the floor and leave the taps running in a society that causes distress faster than it can address it.

 

[Ceke2002]

What is your opinion of non medical mental health interventions to assist with mild to moderate depression, anxiety, PTSD, substance abuse, interpersonal functioning, etcetera?

I have been going through a period lately where I am seeing a lot of distress that is simply due to dysfunctional families, relationships and unavoidable life stressors (lack of money, unemployment or dysfunctional work environments, interacting with other humans) all of whom are continuously told, both explicitly and implicitly, that they are suffering from "depression" and need to seek "treatment." I often wonder if I am doing them a service or disservice my reinforcing this flawed conceptualization.

Just to chime in for a moment with this as well - this would also be one of my criticisms of Psychiatry (or at least segments thereof), the 'pathologising' of life experiences. Sh**ty things happen sometimes, relationships breakdown, people lose jobs, etc, etc, and yes all those things suck, but they are also part of the tapestry of living and don't need to be clinicalised, categorised, and fixed with a pill. Sometimes I wonder if we, as a society, have become so disconnected from our sense of a shared community that we find it easier to control someone's emotional responses and behaviour in these sorts of situations, rather than provide some basic human kindness and support. Or to put in another way, you wouldn't call a simple tension headache 'meningitis', so why call a perfectly normal and understandable human response to a sh**ty situation 'clinical depression' - they are not the same thing.

 

[Ibid]

this would also be one of my criticisms of Psychiatry .

You have criticisms of.... psychiatry... well I never there I was thinking you were a psychiatric slave!!! Well I never....
Just goes to show....

EDIT: This is like Oboma coming out as a republican....or a Dallas Cowboy cheerleader coming out a Redskins fan.... or something like that....

 

[schwartz]

You have criticisms of.... psychiatry... well I never there I was thinking you were a psychiatric slave!!! Well I never....Just goes to show.... This is like Oboma coming out as a republican....or a Dallas Cowboy cheerleader coming out a Redskins fan.... or something like that....

You could use a crash course in English.

 

[Ceke2002]

You have criticisms of.... psychiatry... well I never there I was thinking you were a psychiatric slave!!! Well I never....
Just goes to show....

EDIT: This is like Oboma coming out as a republican....or a Dallas Cowboy cheerleader coming out a Redskins fan.... or something like that....

Just because I happen to respect the Psychiatrist I see now doesn't mean I don't still see issues and attitudes within mental health treatment that need to be addressed and changed.

 

[Ibid]

Just because I happen to respect the Psychiatrist I see now doesn't mean I don't still see issues and attitudes within mental health treatment that need to be addressed and changed.

Yes.... its the people who don't or wont see the funny side that feel sorry for.....

Look out for the hate fuel filled invective dispensed via the "start a private convo" button..... and these people fancy they are going to make good "helpers"... the mind boggles.... (you know who you are you naughty naughty students.... )

 

[vistaril]

Seeing as we all are airing mental health grievances. In recent news, apparently two psychologists helped develop the torture program at gitmo and founded basically a torture for hire company bringing in 81 million from CIA. So disgusting.
http://www.sltrib.com/home/1933958-155/story.html

eh....depends on what side of the political spectrum you are on. I am all for torture methods to be used on terrorists, as are many others.

 

[Ibid]

eh....depends on what side of the political spectrum you are on. I am all for torture methods to be used on terrorists, as are many others.

Just for arguments sake then, where should the line be drawn then? The trouble as I see it is if you accept torture then you will end up torturing some people who are not terrorists.... and then why not torture the families of the potential terrorists to find out where they are..... I mean where does it stop?

Presumably once you accept torture their is no absolute limit on who could be tortured for any reason....

Just interested in where you would draw the line.....

 

[vistaril]

Just for arguments sake then, where should the line be drawn then? The trouble as I see it is if you accept torture then you will end up torturing some people who are not terrorists.... and then why not torture the families of the potential terrorists to find out where they are..... I mean where does it stop?

Presumably once you accept torture their is no absolute limit on who could be tortured for any reason....

Just interested in where you would draw the line.....

I just don't believe in engaging in that sort of thinking. You can extend that sort of ridiculousness(drawing a line) to most things in life.

To answer your questions though- I would torture people who are terrorists and may have important information. Torturing more passive players/family members(who aren't actively aiding the terrorist cause) would not be something I support. Of course if they are actively aiding the cause by providing supplies and such, sure.....

 

[Ibid]

I'm just going to make a public announcement then. I have no.... I repeat no useful info about anything..... although I'm happy to sign anything as long as you put away that anal feeding tube.....

 

[vistaril]

I'm just going to make a public announcement then. I have no.... I repeat no useful info about anything..... although I'm happy to sign anything as long as you put away that anal feeding tube.....

I'm certainly no expert on it, but this leftist manta that "torture tactics lead to useless information" seems incorrect. I'll trust the military people who say they've used torture in the past on several occasions to obtain very valuable info that they hadn't obtained before.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I'm certainly no expert on it, but this leftist manta that "torture tactics lead to useless information" seems incorrect. I'll trust the military people who say they've used torture in the past on several occasions to obtain very valuable info that they hadn't obtained before.

Except they haven't, and that's not just from the leftist liberal media or whatever. Historically, they really haven't.

On another note, how the hell did we start talking about torture in this thread. Keeping with the topic, though, I think our APA (the psychiatrist one) has done a much better job ethically on this issue than the other APA (the psychologists' one) which had pretty ambiguous language about torture due to a too close relationship with the military. I wish the media would get that there's a distinction between psychiatrists and psychologists, though, because we don't share in this guilt.

 

[NontradCA]

eh....depends on what side of the political spectrum you are on. I am all for torture methods to be used on terrorists, as are many others.

This has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with both ignorance and lack of human compassion.

 

[notdeadyet]

I'm certainly no expert on it, but this leftist manta that "torture tactics lead to useless information" seems incorrect. I'll trust the military people who say they've used torture in the past on several occasions to obtain very valuable info that they hadn't obtained before.

As one of the few posters on this forum who is military, let me say emphatically that the military has been pretty clear that torture is NOT a method used to get reliable information.

The military has sent a pretty clear message that torture is not a tool to be used for reasons tactical, let alone ethics. This is widely disseminated within the military and has nothing to do with any political leanings (right or left) of your various media.

I have zero interest in this derailing into another provocative thread, Vistaril. I just get irritated when the military gets misrepresented based on a few loud hawks that state their political opinions and it is misattributed to military doctrine (this happened back when the DoD was stating that it did not have concerns with the repeal of DADT while those on the civilian political right were pushing against repeal stating that it would harm the military).

You are free to have your personal civilian opinion on this, Vistaril, but (as we say in the military) stay in your lane.

 

[erg923]

I'm certainly no expert on it, but this leftist manta that "torture tactics lead to useless information" seems incorrect. I'll trust the military people who say they've used torture in the past on several occasions to obtain very valuable info that they hadn't obtained before.

Outcome literature does not agree. What about it "seems" incorrect to you? I am not even sure what that means-"seems incorrect?"

And from a more moral standpoint, I am not sure how one justifies the position that some people are less deserving of basic human rights (i.e., not to be tortured, in this case) than others. This is actually the opposite mindset that allowed Christianity to spread and stay relevant-the notion that ALL human beings are equally deserving in the eyes of God. If one calls themselves a Christian, you really have to accept this premise. Its not really debatable, Vistaril.

 

[Ceke2002]

Except they haven't, and that's not just from the leftist liberal media or whatever. Historically, they really haven't.

On another note, how the hell did we start talking about torture in this thread. Keeping with the topic, though, I think our APA (the psychiatrist one) has done a much better job ethically on this issue than the other APA (the psychologists' one) which had pretty ambiguous language about torture due to a too close relationship with the military. I wish the media would get that there's a distinction between psychiatrists and psychologists, though, because we don't share in this guilt.

This has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with both ignorance and lack of human compassion.

As one of the few posters on this forum who is military, let me say emphatically that the military has been pretty clear that torture is NOT a method used to get reliable information.

The military has sent a pretty clear message that torture is not a tool to be used for reasons tactical, let alone ethics. This is widely disseminated within the military and has nothing to do with any political leanings (right or left) of your various media.

I have zero interest in this derailing into another provocative thread, Vistaril. I just get irritated when the military gets misrepresented based on a few loud hawks that state their political opinions and it is misattributed to military doctrine (this happened back when the DoD was stating that it did not have concerns with the repeal of DADT while those on the civilian political right were pushing against repeal stating that it would harm the military).

You are free to have your personal civilian opinion on this, Vistaril, but (as we say in the military) stay in your lane.

Outcome literature does not agree. What about it "seems" incorrect to you? I am not even sure what that means-"seems incorrect?"

And from a more moral standpoint, I am not sure how one justifies the position that some people are less deserving of basic human rights (i.e., not to be tortured, in this case) than others. This is actually the opposite mindset that allowed Christianity to spread and stay relevant-the notion that ALL human beings are equally deserving in the eyes of God. If one calls themselves a Christian, you really have to accept this premise. Its not really debatable, Vistaril.

Nothing of substance to add, just you guys are all manner of awesome with these responses.

 

[Ibid]

What if it was a really cute fluffy kitten trained to tap out info with its paws..... then what... no one could condone being mean to a kitten.... thats the thing once you say its OK to torture..... kittens get it....imo

 

[Ibid]

 

[st2205]

Well the harm done is so well documented its hardly worth going over.... it would make rather a long list. But your point that since the confinement that took place in Europe starting roughly three hundred years ago, psychiatry being born in the asylum... the logic of psychiatry has grown,expanded and infected many areas of life.... not least getting itself bound up in the criminal justice system to the extent that is barely possible to distinguish where the boundary between criminality and so called mental illness begins and end.

Arguably if psychiatry is a legitimate branch of medicine extortion is a legitimate form of insurance....

I'm kidding....

It would probably be easier if you pointed out the parts of the broad field of psychiatry that you feel are not problematic...or even what you feel the purpose of the mental health system is. By that I mean how it actually functions rather than what ones aspirations for it might be...

btw i'm not suggesting that no one is ever helped by the mental health system but to be honest I do think that is something of a miracle really..... being detained and being drugged by force isn't the same as winning the lottery....

Perhaps you have confused my questioning for specifics as some type of disagreement. When you state the following:

A lot of the critique comes from people who have been subject to "psychiatric services"..... Frankly a lot of those people have been treated terribly by any measure and the logic that justified that terrible treatment remains the logic that justifies so called treatments today.

I think it'd be reasonable to expect some inquiry as to specifics as there are a whole spectrum of issues that fall along the mental health continuum. Not too dissimilar from many offering critiques of the US government -- many very valid, some less valid, some based in fantasy, and others too embarrassing to mention. So unless some idea of specifics can be conveyed (which I appreciate you detailing in some small part above), we're just left with some clever angsty but meaningless buzz phrases.

 

[Ibid]

Perhaps you have confused my questioning for specifics as some type of disagreement. When you state the following:

I think it'd be reasonable to expect some inquiry as to specifics as there are a whole spectrum of issues that fall along the mental health continuum. Not too dissimilar from many offering critiques of the US government -- many very valid, some less valid, some based in fantasy, and others too embarrassing to mention. So unless some idea of specifics can be conveyed (which I appreciate you detailing in some small part above), we're just left with some clever angsty but meaningless buzz phrases..

You are right.... I probably did take it like that.... I can be on a hair trigger like that...

I imagine we would pile up the valid, invalid, fantasy and too embarrassing to mention into the same piles.

Some of the issues are intractable or seem that way.... I will say that I think its true that while their are a lot of dinosaur psychiatrists that the younger generation, some anyway, are a source of hope that things will continue to improve.... (just please never mention I said that.... it doesn't fit with my reputation)