Match list due soon be careful

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EctopicFetus

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For the medical students on this board. Do yourselves a favor and avoid any hca program. Similarly avoid any new program at this point. Anything with less than a 3 year track record is proof that this residency exists solely to enrich the hospital.

If you want to be a lemming go and work at an hca site as a trainee.

This is your PSA from EF.

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I tell med students that are visiting and home med students the exact same thing.

I think this application cycle is going to be very rough for EM as a whole, except for programs like USC/LAC etc.
 
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Logic is difficult to overcome the mindset of a 4th year med student if they are dead set on EM. It's borderline desperation. The worst imagination possible is to not rank and have to scramble into something else. Then there's the FMG/IMG crowd who would rank the HCA programs 100 times over just to have a shot at EM. I had sub par programs ranked simply as a backup because I was terrified of not matching.

We need some sort of control over the propagation of sub quality EM residencies. Either that or continue to focus our attention on dissuasion tactics and bring down the total number of applications. I find 4th year EM students to be beyond saving. They remind me of Mowgli hypnotized by Kaa in the jungle book. It's impossible to reason with them.



 
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Once they hear and see the job situation they will learn. ACGME etc is worthless. Our only hope is for spots to go unmatched.
 
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4 years from now: "Hey guys, I'm a rising 4th year EM resident at *powerhouse HCA program*, can you help me rank the following Urgent Care fellowships?
 
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Once they hear and see the job situation they will learn. ACGME etc is worthless. Our only hope is for spots to go unmatched.

Last year I believe it was 234 unfilled spots. I expect that number to be much higher this year
 
Why, anyone is applying to EM now is beyond me. Go into a failing specialty, get a failed career. So sad to watch. What a embarrassing specialty we have.
 
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Why, anyone is applying to EM now is beyond me. Go into a failing specialty, get a failed career. So sad to watch. What an embarrassing specialty we have.
Agreed.

Many EM docs are trying to get out, no idea why people would apply to go in …
 
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There's still time if you are laser-focused to make money for a 2-5 years. Just don't spend beyond your means, and plan for something else beyond EM. Still a sad state of affairs that physicians, including ACGME and ACEP are okay with this. Greed will always win out over altruism.
 
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Agreed.

Many EM docs are trying to get out, no idea why people would apply to go in …
Because for many the only other option is not matching.

Also the usual reasons: can't see doing anything else, not believing that things are that bad, and so on...
 
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Last year I believe it was 234 unfilled spots. I expect that number to be much higher this year
Even though 234 slots went on filled in the regular match, they were completely filled in the soap. That will continue to happen as long as there are positions available. IMGs and FMGs would rather match in any EM spot rather than not match or have to do a prelim year. Unless the residency positions are curtailed via higher standards and enforcement of program criteria or EDs change to only be staffed by BCEM physicians in all cases, ED docs will continue to be pumped out at an unsustainable level.
 
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There's still time if you are laser-focused to make money for a 2-5 years. Just don't spend beyond your means, and plan for something else beyond EM. Still a sad state of affairs that physicians, including ACGME and ACEP are okay with this. Greed will always win out over altruism.
To be fair, the reason EM was "popular" was also greed. We've long been the choice for med students that picked their specialty based off of (income/length of training). Lot of EM docs that don't really like EM but saw $250+/hr for 3 years of training and said "Sign me up!" In some way I can see the point that it's arbitrary that the greed that leads to TH/EN/USACS/APP divying up the nations' existing supply of EPs is ok and allowed but controlling the training of a new supply of EPs is over the line. The locums doc working as a scab until the next group of sheep is on-boarded is a hero for pulling down $500/hr but everyone decides to ignore that a ready supply of hypermobile EPs means that it's impossible for a shop's docs to have any significant leverage. It's all greed all the time...
 
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To be fair, the reason EM was "popular" was also greed. We've long been the choice for med students that picked their specialty based off of (income/length of training). Lot of EM docs that don't really like EM but saw $250+/hr for 3 years of training and said "Sign me up!" In some way I can see the point that it's arbitrary that the greed that leads to TH/EN/USACS/APP divying up the nations' existing supply of EPs is ok and allowed but controlling the training of a new supply of EPs is over the line. The locums doc working as a scab until the next group of sheep is on-boarded is a hero for pulling down $500/hr but everyone decides to ignore that a ready supply of hypermobile EPs means that it's impossible for a shop's docs to have any significant leverage. It's all greed all the time...
One big problem is that we have never really been part of the "medical staff" at most hospitals. Orthopedic surgeons, cardiologists, etc. bring money to the hospital. We are seen as just a necessary evil, and as a result the hospital has no interest in longevity, which is why we can have hyper-mobile doctors churn through so many sites. That and the willingness of CMGs to throw ED physicians under the bus when the hospital makes unreasonable demands are what is driving this.
 
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Last year I believe it was 234 unfilled spots. I expect that number to be much higher this year
Thats pre "SOAP" or as us old fogies say the scramble. I havent seen any numbers post scramble.
 
4 years from now: "Hey guys, I'm a rising 4th year EM resident at *powerhouse HCA program*, can you help me rank the following Urgent Care fellowships?
How about, "I stayed for an extra fellowship year in waiting room medicine. I'm pretty dialed in on admits, discharges, and critical care at any location within 250 yards of a hospital."

That 250 yard flexibility keeps the waiting time billboard competitive and makes me a superior candidate.
 
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Last year I believe it was 234 unfilled spots. I expect that number to be much higher this year
Did your program get less applicants this year compared to last? I’m just curious
 
I can’t speak to the HCA residency or work experience, but I went to an established 3yr program in the West and basically had to teach my EM as a new attending. Go figure, but half my residency attendings were relatively new grads who were intent on bossing around residents in an effort to avoid learning how to efficiently practice EM.

I never once in residency put in a shoulder without propofol. We talked about it, injected some lido , made the pt scream and then decided that this really tough case required sedation. Every, single , one. We scanned everything, but only after chin scratching for 20 minutes about the dangers of radiation. Hematoma blocks were the purview of ortho. 2 hr repairs of man with 20 lacs, definitely mine. We didn’t have a video laryngoscope until I was a 3rd year and somehow took pride in it. That was 2011.

My last job (CEP) got a ton of students through the local DO school. I couldn’t help but feel jealous of their rotation experience compared to mine through Highland and NYU. They got lines as students while I got a rotation in the liver transplant unit as a student. They had one on one teaching with attendings for weeks without a resident or fellow to contend with.

Perhaps I’m jaded, but I can’t say I much trust the name brand training either. Honestly, county general has just as much motivation to exploit their trainees, maybe more. Consider this: who’s going to get stuck with more discharge summaries for trauma pts that have languished in a hospital for months, the resident at Denver or the HCA resident who’s hospital doesn’t do trauma.
 
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I can’t speak to the HCA residency or work experience, but I went to an established 3yr program in the West and basically had to teach my EM as a new attending. Go figure, but half my residency attendings were relatively new grads who were intent on bossing around residents in an effort to avoid learning how to efficiently practice EM.

I never once in residency put in a shoulder without propofol. We talked about it, injected some lido , made the pt scream and then decided that this really tough case required sedation. Every, single , one. We scanned everything, but only after chin scratching for 20 minutes about the dangers of radiation. Hematoma blocks were the purview of ortho. 2 hr repairs of man with 20 lacs, definitely mine. We didn’t have a video laryngoscope until I was a 3rd year and somehow took pride in it. That was 2011.

My last job (CEP) got a ton of students through the local DO school. I couldn’t help but feel jealous of their rotation experience compared to mine through Highland and NYU. They got lines as students while I got a rotation in the liver transplant unit as a student. They had one on one teaching with attendings for weeks without a resident or fellow to contend with.

Perhaps I’m jaded, but I can’t say I much trust the name brand training either. Honestly, county general has just as much motivation to exploit their trainees, maybe more. Consider this: who’s going to get stuck with more discharge summaries for trauma pts that have languished in a hospital for months, the resident at Denver or the HCA resident who’s hospital doesn’t do trauma.
Sounds like your program sucked. I started training in 2006 and we had US training then and multiple video scopes. One thing I notice which is interesting is that the current residents and students expect 0 scut. No doubt I did too much but the coddling of some of the current residents is extreme.

There are many west coast programs including "established" ones whom i have no respect for. I worked with residents from a pretty well known program and had a 3rd year resident who trained at this trauma center tell me he had only put in 2 chest tubes.

I think one key point in your above post is that many of your attendings being new grads. Experience matters. In my opinion a good program has a mix of experience. The old guys know some cool tips and tricks that they picked up over time or learned years ago. The young guys are similar but often they feel pressure to either move the meat, still want to do a bunch of procedures themselves etc.

I doubt many EM residents could place an IJ using only landmarks. From my experience with some residents they clearly never paid attention to it as they are so beholden to US they forgot basic anatomy. Similarly, I am a huge video fan but DL skill is a must. Yes US IJ is the gold standard and it is IMO malpractice to do it without but learn the landmarks, learn the basics of the skill.

I can go on and on but the point is some residencies suck and abuse their residents. The issue with HCA land is they dont even care and what they practice is extraction of money from patients without care for the quality of care (or apparently cleanliness of their facility).

I will never hire an HCA grad. Hard stop.
 
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Sounds like your program sucked. I started training in 2006 and we had US training then and multiple video scopes. One thing I notice which is interesting is that the current residents and students expect 0 scut. No doubt I did too much but the coddling of some of the current residents is extreme.
Scut for scut's sake is obviously bad, but I think there is something corrosive about only being engaged in the practice of medicine for the highlights. I'm not saying pushing patients to CT or putting on an AO splint is the most intellectually satisfying exercise, but in the absence of being busy doing medical things people just f'off to surf the web or scroll on their phone. Plus their lack of business creates this feeling of the need to teach so it's tempting to launch into full blown lectures rather than being able to highlight pearls related to the case then give them time to absorb and process.
 
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Scut for scut's sake is obviously bad, but I think there is something corrosive about only being engaged in the practice of medicine for the highlights. I'm not saying pushing patients to CT or putting on an AO splint is the most intellectually satisfying exercise, but in the absence of being busy doing medical things people just f'off to surf the web or scroll on their phone. Plus their lack of business creates this feeling of the need to teach so it's tempting to launch into full blown lectures rather than being able to highlight pearls related to the case then give them time to absorb and process.

What's an AO splint?
 
What's an AO splint?
It’s a lower extremity sugar tong with footplate. As opposed to the slightly easier but more skin damaging posterior with sugar tong. Literally the only thing I learned on my ortho rotation as a resident.
 
Coming soon, the HCA/USACS school of medicine and nurse practionery
 
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It’s a lower extremity sugar tong with footplate. As opposed to the slightly easier but more skin damaging posterior with sugar tong. Literally the only thing I learned on my ortho rotation as a resident.

So posterior leg + sugartong?

What doe the "AO" stand for?
 
So posterior leg + sugartong?

What doe the "AO" stand for?
Except it’s open on the posterior side and you fold the part that would be the posterior under to double up the foot plate. I believe AO is some European ortho governing body, possibly Swiss if I’m remembering?
 
I doubt many EM residents could place an IJ using only landmarks. From my experience with some residents they clearly never paid attention to it as they are so beholden to US they forgot basic anatomy.

I actually don't really care about blind IJs. I think the real shame is the decrease in subclavians. From a patient perspective, they're the best line to have.

How many of you are doing US-guided subclavians, by the way? That seemed like the best of both worlds to me but it never seemed to have caught on.
 
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I taught myself US guided subclav as an attending (not hard if you can do other US guided vascular access) because none of my broke dick academic attendings in residency taught me subclav of any kind.
 
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I recall working with a 3rd year who told me she'd never done a subclavian, so I declared "we're getting you one tonight!"

Not much later a sick as crap guy came in with septic shock. We sent off labs, started fluids with peripheral pressors and then I walked her through a nice, smooth subclavian. Just as we were getting the post-line CXR the lab called about the critically high INR...

:whistle:
 
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I can't express the giant knot I get in my stomach when I hear a medical student fret about ranking EM program A over EM program B. No matter how many times I tell them "you're just re-arranging chairs on the Titanic" they never listen.

I wouldn't have listened either honestly.

This is a lesson they'll have to learn painfully on their own, perhaps somewhere during their first few years as an attending because even residency does a good job at shielding the young from the day-to-day that an attending faces.

This also painfully highlights the shortcomings of the physician training pathway, which (IMHO) will be replaced with some hybrid akin to PA school with some additional bells and whistles. We don't need somebody with a PhD in agriculture doing the apple-picking 12 hours a day, and the same analogy applies to medicine in 2023.

I squarely tell medical students that they should ONLY be going into fields with extremely high barriers to entry (certain subspecialties) and/or subspecialties that actively control the inflow of candidates (derm/uro/ophtho/etc) and/or specialties where you are not dependent on the payor system, and can charge cash/hang a shingle on your own practice.
 
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I can't express the giant knot I get in my stomach when I hear a medical student fret about ranking EM program A over EM program B. No matter how many times I tell them "you're just re-arranging chairs on the Titanic" they never listen.

I wouldn't have listened either honestly.

This is a lesson they'll have to learn painfully on their own, perhaps somewhere during their first few years as an attending because even residency does a good job at shielding the young from the day-to-day that an attending faces.

This also painfully highlights the shortcomings of the physician training pathway, which (IMHO) will be replaced with some hybrid akin to PA school with some additional bells and whistles. We don't need somebody with a PhD in agriculture doing the apple-picking 12 hours a day, and the same analogy applies to medicine in 2023.

I squarely tell medical students that they should ONLY be going into fields with extremely high barriers to entry (certain subspecialties) and/or subspecialties that actively control the inflow of candidates (derm/uro/ophtho/etc) and/or specialties where you are not dependent on the payor system, and can charge cash/hang a shingle on your own practice.

I've long held that medical education needs to be reformed, but that ain't it.

I'd be open to discussion on that topic in a different thread. I have ideas. Not all of them are good.
 
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I taught myself US guided subclav as an attending (not hard if you can do other US guided vascular access) because none of my broke dick academic attendings in residency taught me subclav of any kind.
I did a few in residency, but got so fast with an IJ that the risks weren't worth the subclavian.
I can still hit one if needed, but it's been a few years. It would have to take some odd combination of "I can't get a line in four other sites for four other reasons".
 
Coming soon, the HCA/USACS school of medicine and nurse practionery
It’s coming in Nashville.

 
Does anyone use the subclavian as their go to approach for central access? I’m pretty facile at all three, but love the subclavian.
Me this is my fav. No contraindications we do this.
 
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Does anyone use the subclavian as their go to approach for central access? I’m pretty facile at all three, but love the subclavian.

Yup. Anything that's remotely unstable and needs quick access. I'm the only attending at my primary site that even remotely uses them, I teach them to the residents when I get the chance. I got lucky during residency and had attendings that used them and a patient population sick enough to get enough to get comfortable
 
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Yup. Anything that's remotely unstable and needs quick access. I'm the only attending at my primary site that even remotely uses them, I teach them to the residents when I get the chance. I got lucky during residency and had attendings that used them and a patient population sick enough to get enough to get comfortable
Subclavian is nice if you are doing a blind line but if there’s an US I can do a femoral just as quickly. I almost never need access so much that I can get an US in the room. If they are that sick and no one can get a line honestly I place an easy IJ/IO then place a central line later. My concern is always if you accidentally drop a lung people will ask why you chose that site. US guided subclavian is safer since you can use rib protection but takes longer. An US IJ also only takes 5-10 minutes. Dunno I love the mechanics and simplicity of placing a subclavian but the rate of PTX is quoted at 10-20%
 
Subclavian is nice if you are doing a blind line but if there’s an US I can do a femoral just as quickly.
The fastest line for me is blind femoral, it's like shooting fish in a barrel.
 
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Need a fast emergent line? I just drop a femoral. Easy, fast, very little risk.

The ICU can change it later
 
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I love subclavians, but don’t do them often. I avoid them in patients that have any amount of respiratory distress where me dropping the lung could worsen their underlying pathology (sick pneumonias, bipap COPD/CHF, etc). If I intubated for airway protection, if they’re getting a chest tube anyway, or a sick trauma, I’ll drop the subclavian. For all other central lines im dropping a “landmark guided” fem. Sounds better when I write it in the chart. If they don’t have a fem pulse, I will rarely grab the US to drop the fem line (very rare, IO in place usually on super hypotensive patient with a carotid but no fem, happened once recently to me). Probably 90%+ of my lines since residency have been blind fems, one or two US fems, had ICU ask me once for an IJ which I did grudgingly, and the rest subclavians. Would love to learn supraclavicular subclavian or US guided supraclavicular but haven’t had the opportunity and would have to look it up again, which would take a long while in the moment.
 
The problem with subclavian is it just doesn’t come up *that* often that I need central access RIGHT NOW to the point where I don’t have the 2 minutes it takes to set up the ultrasound and drop an IJ or do a blind fem which is a far safer blind site.

The last subclavian I did that wasn’t just for “hey let’s do a subclavian” was a young female who got a whole body liposuction + Brazilian butt lift at a surgical center in a strip mall. PA using the trochar didn’t know how to operate it and lacerated her iliac artery, injected subcutaneous free air throughout her entire body, and created a giant abdominal wall hematoma. So the free air in her neck prevented me from doing an IJ and the abdominal wall hematoma/lacerated iliac made a fem less ideal.

But like…stuff like that just doesn’t happen that often.
 
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I love the concept of the subclav but I just don't end up doing many.

-- tons of my CVL are on patients w/ severe lung disease where dropping a lung looks deadly and I go towards other lines. If they are intubated and I have time, IJ. If they are sitting up on bipap and I think I can bridge them without intubating, semi-recumbant femoral.
--same on the BMI>50 crowd, I tend to other spots
--on my not-quite-crash but don't-have-a-lot-of-time patients, I default to femoral.

Just out of training I probably did 70% IJ, 15% fem, 15% subclav. A decade+ removed I'm probably 2:1 Fem:IJ, with the rare subclav... I'm also WAY better at US PIV now.
 
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I love the concept of the subclav but I just don't end up doing many.

-- tons of my CVL are on patients w/ severe lung disease where dropping a lung looks deadly and I go towards other lines. If they are intubated and I have time, IJ. If they are sitting up on bipap and I think I can bridge them without intubating, semi-recumbant femoral.
--same on the BMI>50 crowd, I tend to other spots
--on my not-quite-crash but don't-have-a-lot-of-time patients, I default to femoral.

Just out of training I probably did 70% IJ, 15% fem, 15% subclav. A decade+ removed I'm probably 2:1 Fem:IJ, with the rare subclav... I'm also WAY better at US PIV now.
Good point. It’s so easy and quick to place an US guided peripheral to start pressors/resuscitation to buy time to start a full sterile CVC when you have things stabilized. Nice long catheter in a vein <0.5 cm deep works great. To be fair I am almost never pouring blood into patients anymore so flow rates don’t matter.
 
Central lines are a little overrated. They’re exciting and sexy. Maybe even the first 100. Then they just take up time, and don’t help in resuscitation as much as you might think. Good peripherals go a long way.
 
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Need a fast emergent line? I just drop a femoral. Easy, fast, very little risk.

The ICU can change it later
The fastest line for me is an IO. Shoot that IO gun first, ask about IVs later.
 
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Central lines are a little overrated. They’re exciting and sexy. Maybe even the first 100. Then they just take up time, and don’t help in resuscitation as much as you might think. Good peripherals go a long way.
I similarly eye roll when my residents get all up in arms (pun unintended) about an art line on a patient with reliably measurable blood pressure.
 
I similarly eye roll when my residents get all up in arms (pun unintended) about an art line on a patient with reliably measurable blood pressure.
You don't understand, man... I may get pimped about the art line wave form and what I am supposed to tell the attending, "I was too much of a **** to force the ED to place one prior to admission?"
 
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