Med School Tuition is Insane

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This thread makes me want to marry a rich girl...:xf:
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NK1Positive said:
For all of the unsubsidized loans, the interest accrues from when it was disbursed..



It is ridiculous.. the student parking lot is full of BMWs, and Mercs..I've even seen a tesla roadster. What's even worse is this kid in my class bought a new Patek Philippe.. coming from the midwest, I just figured ppl in FL had more money, but who knows...Tuition is 42K and you can max out your federal loans to 85k
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:eek::eek: Ubelievable. $85 K per year maximum? WTF??
 
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MT Headed said:
Medical students are given the maximum stafford amount for med school loans (~$40K / yr). The COA at most schools is beyond this, and how the student makes up the difference is left as an exercise to the reader, although GradPLUS is a popular option. These are not your father's staffords either. Starting in 2012 the 6.8% interest starts accruing on day 1 of med school.

Up to about $300K the loans aren't that difficult to pay off, even on a private FP paycheck. Beyond $300K things get a little iffy. If the loans truly become unmanageable, the debtor will just remain on IBR, paying 10% of their discretionary income for 25 years until the loan is forgiven. So it might be best to think of it as a 10% surtax on income at that point.

Also, there is a quirk in the average reported indebtedness - this reported figure is usually the mean of the debt of the students that chose to take out student debt. Many wealthy students took the free subsidized stafford loans and just paid them right back after graduation. But starting in 2012 there are no subsidized staffords for graduate students, so these students will take zero student debt, and the average student indebtedness figure will skyrocket over the next 4 years to a less misleading value.
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Thanks for the clarification. So, since all loans now carry a hefty interest rate starting on day one(started this year) will the average debt per student actually go down? Or, will the statistics only report those students who take out loans so the average debt actually goes up?

The 5-10 percent of each class simply will borrow zero while the remaining 90 percent borrows $180K. I think that's your point and it makes sense.
 
calvnandhobbs68 said:
Subsidized loans for all graduate students have been phased out starting this year anyway, so it's a non-issue. All loans are un-subsidized from this point on.

The amount of surprise in this thread is pretty funny. Some of you guys have been out of the loop for a while huh?
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A long time. In my day no interest at all until after Residency. My tuition was about 1/4 of what you all pay. Unbelievable.
 
IDBasco said:
Wow. We didn't have anything that blatant in the lot while I was on campus (been gone pretty much all M4). I don't care if someones parents buy them some expensive car, but doing that kind of thing on your own while a student shows amazingly bad judgement.
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Yup, it's gonna cost em 3x that in the long run. IMHO an A4 is not worth 90k.
 
BLADEMDA said:
:eek::eek: Ubelievable. $85 K per year maximum? WTF??
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Eh kinda sorta...he's being a little liberal with that (in that I think few people would be stupid enough to load up that much). I'm assuming Graduate PLUS loans are being included in there because max sub + unsub Stafford loans are $40,500 a year (part of the problem with medical school tuitions going up...medical students have a higher cap on Stafford loans than any other type of graduate student).

Theoretically you could go up to your school's COA with PLUS loans but you don't take out PLUS loans unless you're planning on getting royally f'd. You have to start repaying them within 60 days of disbursement at a 7.9% interest rate. Few people can even consider this option actually unless you have money to pay it back with...they're basically the same thing as Parent PLUS loans for undergrads except you can take them out in your name.

I'm actually glad people here want to learn more about this. I think lots of attendings don't have much of an idea how much money is getting dumped into med school these days. Have some pity on your poor residents :laugh:
 
BLADEMDA said:
A loaded up A4 is like $45K or more. It competes with the BMW 3 series. If you want a well-equipped car for under $30K then it's the Acura Tsx.

http://www.acura.com/modellanding.aspx?model=tsx
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I dunno if I will ever bring myself to stomach the cost of owning a car for the first year or two. Hence my 30k. Though my choice would prob be a truck or suv to play in the mtns.
 
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BLADEMDA said:
Thanks for the clarification. So, since all loans now carry a hefty interest rate starting on day one(started this year) will the average debt per student actually go down? Or, will the statistics only report those students who take out loans so the average debt actually goes up?

The 5-10 percent of each class simply will borrow zero while the remaining 90 percent borrows $180K. I think that's your point and it makes sense.
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The bolded part. The mean debt of those who take debt has been a misleading amount. The median debt would be more realistic but the stats people never report median debt of those who take debt.
 
Noyac said:
I would tell youmtomlook up Jet's post in the FM forum for some answers but that would get me in trouble Suomi won't tell you to do this.
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Is that an autocorrect failure for "Sermo"? I ask because "Suomi" is the native way to say "Finland" (like you see on the jerseys of the hockey teams from Finland), like, in Irish, Ireland is "Eire", or, in Greek, Greece is "Ελληνική Δημοκρατία", which transliterates to the "Hellenic Republic".
 
Thanks Blade for starting this thread. As an M1, I do have to say that the debt load is formidable, especially with the loss of subsidized loans this coming year. I currently pay about $45k per year in tuition alone. I am a nontrad, so I am especially concerned about getting it all paid off, having a decent living, and establishing savings/retirement in a shorter earning period. Looking back at the rise is tuition compared to other price indices begs the question...when will it stop? I definitely don't have a solution, but the future is quite scary with all these pay cuts on top of increasing tuition and interest rates. I am really interested in anesthesia, but I honestly don't see how I would survive at a family practice earning level if that was my choice. I hope that all of medicine isn't headed so far in that direction in terms of compensation that the students currently in med school will be SOL financially. I guess I better get to studying...
 
Price Comparison (MSRP): Audi A4 / S4 vs. Acura TSXThe sticker prices, before adjusting for remaining feature differences. Usually these are the numbers you will see on the window stickers.

Models in short supply often sell at or even above these prices.


Lowest Total Price: Acura TSX BaseDifference: 8,105Lowest Total Invoice: Acura TSX BaseDifference: 36,193Model Year20122012ModelA4 / S4TSXTrimA4 2.0TBaseBody4dr Sedan4dr SedanBase Price32,50029,810Base Invoice30,2270Premium Plus Package4,300 Metallic paint (extra cost)475 6-speed manual-1,3000AWD2,100 Bang & Olufsen 505W 14 speakers850 Special Edition Package 1,000Premium Plus Package 0Metallic paint (extra cost) 06-speed manual 0AWD 0Bang & Olufsen 505W 14 speakers 0Special Edition Package 0Total options6,4251,000Total options5,9760Destination875885Total Price39,80031,695Total Invoice37,078885
Return to top
 
ges are receiving less government support.
Price-Changes-Since-1985.jpg
 
For almost three generations, debt has been a nearly inescapable part of becoming a doctor. Over 80 percent of each medical student class will graduate in debt; and while that percentage has remained unchanged for 25 years, the increase in the total amount owed has leapfrogged over all other economic reality checks, like inflation and the consumer price index. According to the Association of American Medical Colleges, which has been trying to address the problem for nearly a decade, young doctors who graduated from medical school last year had an average debt of $158,000, or $2.3 billion for the group as a whole. Almost a third of students owed more than $200,000, a number that will only increase with the addition of interest over payback periods of 25 to 30 years.
 
these economic pressures are transforming the socioeconomic makeup of medical school classes; medical students are increasingly from affluent backgrounds. In 1971, almost 30 percent of medical students came from households with incomes in the lowest 40th percentile, but only 10 percent of all medical students now do, and more than half come from families in the top quintile.
 
Since no one teaches personal finance, medical students don't realize the implications of compound interest on 8% loans until they are finished. The obamacare rolls around and they really need to work a lot more than they though to service the loans. We will be getting the 3.8% medicare surcharge coming up next year. Unless something is done about taxes, the 2 highest federal rates, 33 and 36, will be going up 3% each. State taxes are going up. And there is no deduction for student loans.

I am sick and tired of hearing how I am a 1 percenter and don't pay my fair share. Well, I was up all night every fourth night during residency. I deserve it! I enjoy driving my lambo to the hospital. I worked for it. I save lives every day.

If the AMA was actually a worthwhile organization, they would have had congress make student loans a full tax credit. This would greatly decrease the burden of student loans making the burden a fraction of what it is today. But as I say, the AMA is a worthless organization that doesn't help out the medical student. At least I am a 2 percenter as far as my student loans, not an eight percenter.
 
It is my understanding the govt. charges a disbursement fee of 4% on some of these loans and charges you a high interest rate from day one. Is that correct?

Damn. Vinny isn't the only loan shark any longer.
 
BLADEMDA said:
It is my understanding the govt. charges a disbursement fee of 4% on some of these loans and charges you a high interest rate from day one. Is that correct?

Damn. Vinny isn't the only loan shark any longer.
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Other than interest, are there any fees or charges to get a PLUS Loan?

Yes. There is a fee of 4% of the loan amount, deducted proportionately each time a loan disbursement is made.


And 7.9% Interest in today's market. What will they hike rates to when we normalize our general interest rate? 9.9%?
 
Do you boys and girls realize that whatever income you see published or printed for a specialty is Pre-Tax? This means "spread the wealth around" Obama wants HALF your gross income or more; this leaves you with as little as 40% of your gross income to spend and pay back student loans.

You have to see state and Federal taxes in action to believe it. Then, there is your 401K, disability, health care, etc so that big check isn't nearly as big once you pay your fair share. So, after you little check arrives the govt. is waiting for the student loan payment.

Think you are going to get rich quickly on $200K per year? Think again. It will take a lifetime of good investing and moderate living to get rich on that amount of money after taxes, student loans, health care, disability, etc.
 
IlDestriero said:
Seems like the military might become a good option again.
Zero debt is freeing.
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Thats my plan. I know their are alot of things to be desired with mil-med however for what ammounts to 4 years of payback its a good financial deal. Especially if I plan on going into FM.
 
I didn't want this thread to be all doom and gloom. I've provided evidence that you can pay back those $400K student loans with ease provided you match into the right specilaty.
 
NOsaintsfan said:
Thats my plan. I know their are alot of things to be desired with mil-med however for what ammounts to 4 years of payback its a good financial deal. Especially if I plan on going into FM.
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Agree. Although Army or AirForce sounds better than the Navy from what PGG says about being deployed prior to Residency.
 
Both orthopedic spine surgeons and neurosurgeons received highest average compensation in metropolitan areas with populations of 50,000 to 250,000 people. Spine surgeons earned the highest at $755,866 while neurosurgeons weren't far behind at $751,344. The lowest compensating region for both groups was areas with a population of less than 50,000 people

These are accurate Numbers for private practice. Even hospital employed Neurosurgeons earn this amount.


http://beckersorthopedicandspine.co...o-know-about-spine--neurosurgeon-compensation
 
I came out with $275.

Been working my arse off.

Paid it off my first year out.

There is still plenty of light for the motivated.

Subspecialty is the way to go... as is private practice.

For now, work hard and be the best you can be.

Everything else will work itself out.
 
sevoflurane said:
I came out with $275.

Been working my arse off.

Paid it off my first year out.

There is still plenty of light for the motivated.

Subspecialty is the way to go... as is private practice.

For now, work hard and be the best you can be.

Everything else will work itself out.
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Amazing. Most people need 3-5 years to pay off that much money even in a high paying specialty. Kudos to you.:thumbup:
 
I would humbly suggest to those in anesthesia residency to start seriously looking @ the begenning of CA-2. Most groups won't know their needs this early, but you can create contacts and begin networking. This is one of the most serious decisions that will have a big impact in your life post-residency. Look @ a lot of groups and research them carefully (ask to look at the books, call up old partners, phone interviews- which should be a two way street, etc.)

I never understood residents making a decision after seeing 2-3 groups. Talking to 10-15 groups over a 1.5-2 yr. period will make you better informed in the long term. Yes, it takes time... but it is a good way to solidify your chances of landing a good gig.
 
BLADEMDA said:
Agree. Although Army or AirForce sounds better than the Navy from what PGG says about being deployed prior to Residency.
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No free lunch ...

GMOs (general medical officers) exist in the Army and Air Force too, but they have a much higher % who go direct from PGY1 to PGY2+ training. Still, the risk is not zero there.

The Army has tended to have longer deployments. Navy typically limits time deployed to 6-7 months. With one exception, everyone I've known who's been deployed for 12, 15, or 18 months has been Army.

The Air Force seems to have a much worse work environment for physicians. They have really embraced the empowered nurse and midlevel concept. When it comes to "rightsizing" which really means massive cut do-more-with-less they seem to be a good 5-10 years "ahead" of the Army and Navy.

Mainly because of the Marine Corps, at least 2/3rds of Navy HPSP'ers are sent out as GMOs prior to residency. In some fields (including anesthesia) that rate is close to 100%. Occasionally deferrals are granted and new graduates can do their internship & residency in the civilian world and then come on active duty - a couple of members here have done just that, but it's impossible to predict in advance if that path will be open years in advance.

Anyone thinking of joining the military for med school $ needs to spend 10 or 20 hours reading the stickies and old threads in the military medicine forum. It has worked out well for me, but my experience is atypical in many ways, and for a few reasons I generally discourage pre-meds from entering via HPSP. Mostly my reservations come down to my fear that military residency training opportunities and quality will decline over the next 10 years, some fields more than others.
 
I was looking through a radiology job site where I found a job in the mid-west for 700k with 3 months vacation!

Seems like a great field. The sticking point, from what I've gathered, is many assume that these opportunties may not exist in the future.

BLADEMDA said:
I didn't want this thread to be all doom and gloom. I've provided evidence that you can pay back those $400K student loans with ease provided you match into the right specilaty.
Click to expand...
 
The current conditions are ripe for the takeover of primary care by non-MDs. I mean, what student in his right mind would choose family medicine as a career given those numbers? Doing primary care is just not worth it - end of story.
 
yappy said:
I was looking through a radiology job site where I found a job in the mid-west for 700k with 3 months vacation!

Seems like a great field. The sticking point, from what I've gathered, is many assume that these opportunties may not exist in the future.
Click to expand...

Care to share which website? I'm sure there's a catch.
 
sevoflurane said:
I came out with $275.

Been working my arse off.

Paid it off my first year out.

There is still plenty of light for the motivated.

Subspecialty is the way to go... as is private practice.

For now, work hard and be the best you can be.

Everything else will work itself out.
Click to expand...

Excellent.

That's my plant too. To live a residency lifestyle (work +80hours/week and spend less than 50k/year) for couple of years after residency.

Working +80 hours a week will take a toll on my family, but I think it's still far better for them than being deployed by the military.
 
Blade,

I'm glad you started this thread. The costs are even worse for dental school--easily 400K plus tuition if you decide to specialize. Unreal. The bubble is forming...
 
Silent Cool said:
Blade,

I'm glad you started this thread. The costs are even worse for dental school--easily 400K plus tuition if you decide to specialize. Unreal. The bubble is forming...
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Yup. The situation even worse for pharmacy. Their school costs is on the same magnitude, but their earning potential is far less than that of physicians and dentists.
 
Ibn Alnafis MD said:
Yup. The situation even worse for pharmacy. Their school costs is on the same magnitude, but their earning potential is far less than that of physicians and dentists.
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Throw law school on the pile. Plenty of debt, but lots of them are simply unemployed when they finish.
 
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