Nurses Salaries

[NoUse4aName1286]

That's what I thought too, but it didn't seem to do anything to my post. So maybe not.

The mystery continues...

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[Quix]

I bought a round of drinks for some nurses at Sing Sing on Friday, precisely because of the nature of their work. I have no problem with nurses earning high rates of pay; they go through a lot of unpleasant things in the course of their shifts (which will vary, obviously, depending upon the unit). The nurses on the Behavioral Health Unit, for instance, had to forcibly medicate violent patients, expose themselves to needle-sticks in a patient-base with significantly higher incidence and prevalence of hepatitis and HIV than the general population (and, I would argue, the general medical patient population), etc., much akin to the fun things experienced by DEM/ERC nurses (ER and psych ER). The critical care nurses with whom I work have the fun of much greater and consistent exposure to fun little things like MRSA, C.Diff, VRE, etc., etc,. than many other staff members (for instance, in the trauma ICU at UPMC, nurses are assigned two to three patients to follow all day, and are posted right outside their patients rooms (who frequently have significant needs requiring constant attention) - this translates into 8 to 16 hours of constant exposure to physical and psychological injury (the fun of abusive patients, which you will come to know and love/loathe)), on top of difficult workloads.

 

[mimi2kul]

I bought a round of drinks for some nurses at Sing Sing on Friday, precisely because of the nature of their work. I have no problem with nurses earning high rates of pay; they go through a lot of unpleasant things in the course of their shifts (which will vary, obviously, depending upon the unit). The nurses on the Behavioral Health Unit, for instance, had to forcibly medicate violent patients, expose themselves to needle-sticks in a patient-base with significantly higher incidence and prevalence of hepatitis and HIV than the general population (and, I would argue, the general medical patient population), etc., much akin to the fun things experienced by DEM/ERC nurses (ER and psych ER). The critical care nurses with whom I work have the fun of much greater and consistent exposure to fun little things like MRSA, C.Diff, VRE, etc., etc,. than many other staff members (for instance, in the trauma ICU at UPMC, nurses are assigned two to three patients to follow all day, and are posted right outside their patients rooms (who frequently have significant needs requiring constant attention) - this translates into 8 to 16 hours of constant exposure to physical and psychological injury (the fun of abusive patients, which you will come to know and love/loathe)), on top of difficult workloads.

Finallly....someone who knows what a sista goes thru

 

[uppi]

I believe that nurses have a very tuff job. They are responsible for so much and work very hard. Nurses do deserve the salaries they make, and the ones that make the really big bucks are the ones that work in the OR or ICU. I have great respect for nurses as I am on the phone with them all the time and realize how much they have on their plate. That being said, do Nurses deserve a higher salary than other allied health professions, absolutely NOT. but they are getting it.

I am a 4th year Medical Technology student, currently doing my clinicals and working 10 hours a week at a big teaching hospital as a Lab Assistant in Microbiology. Med Techs basically go through a pre-med curriculum before clinical year (organic chemistry, Both General Chemistries, Genetics, Biochemistry, Anatomy and Physiology, Pathology, etc. plus our 3rd year we take all advanced level medical sciences (Medical Microbiology, Immunology, Hematology, Clinical Chemistry, Urinalysis, Hemostasis, etc.) I know my Universities nursing program does not require Organic Chemistry or Genetics, and they take a "baby" biochemistry class (Basic biochemistry for nursing -101) as opposed to our level 500 biochemistry class.

And as for the nurses are in higher demand and thats why they get paid more arguement, Med Techs are in a MUCH GREATER shortage than nurses, yet wet dont get paid near the jack they do. and as I said, our job is just as demanding and stressful, especially if you work in a big hospital.

Do nurses deserve their salary- yes, but other allied health professionals deserve the same. So in a sense I can see the OP's point.

And as has been stated already, with teaching you have to understand that while they dont make the salary as some other undergrad professions, it gets made up for by the amazing benefits they get. My girlfriend is a education major and she works hard in school to get good grades ( you need good grades to get into blocks) and the teachers she works with are making 50-60k, get summers off, two week christmas breaks and spring break PLUS vacation time still (is it even needed?) and they also have excllent 401k and retirement packages, and oh yea pay next to nothing for health insurance. ( you would think that health care professionals would get the best deals on health care insurance, not true)

 

[artaxerxes]

I believe that nurses have a very tuff job. They are responsible for so much and work very hard. Nurses do deserve the salaries they make, and the ones that make the really big bucks are the ones that work in the OR or ICU. I have great respect for nurses as I am on the phone with them all the time and realize how much they have on their plate. That being said, do Nurses deserve a higher salary than other allied health professions, absolutely NOT. but they are getting it.

I am a 4th year Medical Technology student, currently doing my clinicals and working 10 hours a week at a big teaching hospital as a Lab Assistant in Microbiology. Med Techs basically go through a pre-med curriculum before clinical year (organic chemistry, Both General Chemistries, Genetics, Biochemistry, Anatomy and Physiology, Pathology, etc. plus our 3rd year we take all advanced level medical sciences (Medical Microbiology, Immunology, Hematology, Clinical Chemistry, Urinalysis, Hemostasis, etc.) I know my Universities nursing program does not require Organic Chemistry or Genetics, and they take a "baby" biochemistry class (Basic biochemistry for nursing -101) as opposed to our level 500 biochemistry class.

And as for the nurses are in higher demand and thats why they get paid more arguement, Med Techs are in a MUCH GREATER shortage than nurses, yet wet dont get paid near the jack they do. and as I said, our job is just as demanding and stressful, especially if you work in a big hospital.

Do nurses deserve their salary- yes, but other allied health professionals deserve the same. So in a sense I can see the OP's point.

And as has been stated already, with teaching you have to understand that while they dont make the salary as some other undergrad professions, it gets made up for by the amazing benefits they get. My girlfriend is a education major and she works hard in school to get good grades ( you need good grades to get into blocks) and the teachers she works with are making 50-60k, get summers off, two week christmas breaks and spring break PLUS vacation time still (is it even needed?) and they also have excllent 401k and retirement packages, and oh yea pay next to nothing for health insurance. ( you would think that health care professionals would get the best deals on health care insurance, not true)

how much independence does the med tech have? who do you take orders from? nurses have a fair degree of independence and decision making responsibilities that might exceed that of a tech.

as for teachers, they have a pretty sweet deal working for a suburban or private school. a friend of mine out of UG is making 46G/yr, and guess what? he only works around 200 days a year, 3 months of breaks as you mentioned and a certain number of sick days.
Another thing about teachers is that there is very little accountability if you work in the public schools, its just going through the motions for a check. If you don't mind dealing with punk ass kids who are going to be winners or losers no matter what you do, teaching is the way to go.

 

[braluk]

The moderation team has decided that this thread should be moved to topics in healthcare for further discussion. Thank you.

 

[uppi]

I abosultely agree with the automation aspect. It is one of the reasons I am thinking of going on to medical school or PA school. Part of me feels like I did not go through 4 and a half years of "junior medical school" to become a "medical factory worker". Heck the only portions of the lab that I like is Microbiology and blood bank, which still has not yet seen techs transformed into machine jockey's. With that being said however, I know in Microbiology a huge amount of attention to detail, skill, and knowledge is required to be good. Reading wound culture plates with LOADS of normal flora all over the plate makes it very difficult to pinpoint and ID a pathogen. Also keep in mind that colony morphologies will change and very from strain to strain, making it even harder. Also the fact that the gram stain results we report out will determine the type of antiobiotic treatment the doctor gives most of the time, and reading gram stains is not always easy either, as there are lots of debris and other artifacts that may look like bacteria, PMN's, etc. Medical Technology definetley is an "independant" job, as we report out all these culture results and gram stains with no or very limited supervision, the only time a pathologist or supervisor will really get involved is if you ask or if you have an unusual isolate or susceptibility pattern.

 

[smkoepke]

Most nurses are not over paid. When you can easily kill someone with the push of a button (IV pump setting), or cause them to lose their hearing or stop their heart simply because you didn't control your hand and take an extra couple of minutes to push some fairly routine drugs, risk getting hit, bit poked by people with infectious diseases, go to jail because you made a mistake while caring for them etc...well you probably deserve to make a decent salary. I don't think social work and teaching are comparable in this respect (not that they aren't important and in many cases deserve far higher salary). I could see argueing that a paramedic's salary should equal that of a nurse. These two professions share a lot more similarites, and the danger of the uncontrolled atmosphere that a paramedic deals with should also be factored in.

 

[Tired]

Most nurses are not over paid. When you can easily kill someone with the push of a button (IV pump setting), or cause them to lose their hearing or stop their heart simply because you didn't control your hand and take an extra couple of minutes to push some fairly routine drugs, risk getting hit, bit poked by people with infectious diseases, go to jail because you made a mistake while caring for them etc...well you probably deserve to make a decent salary.

So it's kind of like professional blackmail: Pay me, or my hand might start shaking as I push this medication . . .

 

[Llenroc]

I think boneheaded atheletes are paid too much for running around with a ball, when their only real accomplishment is that they inherited the right set of genes. Of course if I said that in public, I'd be lynched with the communist tying the knot and the homeless man pushing me off the platform. At least nurses provide some useful service to society.

Of course, salaries like all prices are based on supply and demand. Inpatient nurses make good money today because there's a shortage of them and a big demand to cope with all the healthcare needs. "Overpaid" is a term that has no meaning in economics.

 

[Tired]

"Overpaid" is a term that has no meaning in economics.

Adam Smith didn't account for labor unions. The curve doesn't apply in such a setting.

 

[Nasrudin]

Nursing pay is one thing. Their tyrannical power over the entire system is quite another. If it wasn't for the licenses of physicians that legally mandate their medical supervision we would have legions of intellectually napoleonic dictators making multi-six figure salaries while they do their nails and contemplate how dreadfully serious following reasonable orders in giving the right medication to a patient is.

For all of you in the bleachers I'm sure it sounds rather nice to say the appropriate and tasteful things. You ever get down here on the field and have your nursing assistant balls stomped on for no other reason than the smug satisfaction of brute force in action, you might not have such modernized romantic visions of Florence Nightengales with academic chops and the god given right to make bank.

 

[barto123]

i just read a statistic that 25% of nurses make 100K+. It totally stunned me, along with other people on this thread saying their moms making 150-200K as nurses. Then a good friend of mine tells me her mom who has been a nurse for less than 10 years and who only has a two year degree makes 150K+ without even working overtime! wow! im simply floored by these salaries. lots of doctors dont even get paid 150K. my dad who has been working as a family practitioner for 25+ years just broke the 150K mark. if nurses are making this much money they dont have grounds to claim they work too hard, they are quite fairly compensated, seriously.

 

[Josh L.Ac.]

Salaries above 100K are rare where I live. The only nurses that make that are midlevels - CRNA's or neonatal NPs [they do many more procedures than most other NP's].

Nursing pay is one thing. Their tyrannical power over the entire system is quite another. If it wasn't for the licenses of physicians that legally mandate their medical supervision we would have legions of intellectually napoleonic dictators making multi-six figure salaries while they do their nails and contemplate how dreadfully serious following reasonable orders in giving the right medication to a patient is.

Actually, when the physician rounds the corner I immediately go back to doing my nails. All. The. Time.



Seriously? How many people on this board have ever seen a nurse sit and do their nails while on the clock? I'm not talking about "well I heard it from this other doc that he saw this nurse do this"...I'm talking about actually seeing it in the real world.



But if anyone actually does come across this scene, take a picture with your camera and post it. To be quite honest, it would probably be one of the funnest pics ever posted on SDF.



You have your orders.

 

[Nasrudin]

Salaries above 100K are rare where I live. The only nurses that make that are midlevels - CRNA's or neonatal NPs [they do many more procedures than most other NP's].





Actually, when the physician rounds the corner I immediately go back to doing my nails. All. The. Time.



Seriously? How many people on this board have ever seen a nurse sit and do their nails while on the clock? I'm not talking about "well I heard it from this other doc that he saw this nurse do this"...I'm talking about actually seeing it in the real world.



But if anyone actually does come across this scene, take a picture with your camera and post it. To be quite honest, it would probably be one of the funnest pics ever posted on SDF.



You have your orders.

Might I suggest that in a compound sentence the idea of the latter part is often an extension of the idea in the first and that the word "if" implies a conjectural position that is predicated on a hypothetical or stated condition.

People just can't read anymore. Highly educated professionals or not. This place is like simultaneous internet blogs spoken at each other before anything is actually heard.

 

[smkoepke]

So it's kind of like professional blackmail: Pay me, or my hand might start shaking as I push this medication . . .

Nope, more like compensation for the large responsibility that they hold. Can't see a big problem with that.

 

[Josh L.Ac.]

Might I suggest that in a compound sentence the idea of the latter part is often an extension of the idea in the first and that the word "if" implies a conjectural position that is predicated on a hypothetical or stated condition.

People just can't read anymore. Highly educated professionals or not. This place is like simultaneous internet blogs spoken at each other before anything is actually heard.

So...have you really seen a nurse do her [or his] nails at work or were you just using it as a hypothetical example of how nurses have so much time to sit around at the hospital while you are forced to work BLAH BLAH BLAH?

 

[Nasrudin]

So...have you really seen a nurse do her [or his] nails at work or were you just using it as a hypothetical example of how nurses have so much time to sit around at the hospital while you are forced to work BLAH BLAH BLAH?

Do you write for Crossfire or something. You have a talent for making a consistently inane point such that it distorts the original idea.

Anyway with all that alphabet soup after your name I'm sure your on the fast track for napoleonic nursing dictator school so you can compensate for your small academic weenie with a white coat of your own. I'm no match for such wizardry and so I'll just retreat back into the little hole I crawled out of.

 

[Tiana]

I don't know where these inflated nursing salaries are coming from! I am currently getting my BSN, and I expect to make $25/hr tops, and I think nurses deserve that, so much responsibility.

 

[zenman]

Actually yes. I was an aide for seven years before I was a doctor, and that's where I met my wife, who is an RN.

Nursing is essentially low-skill labor (patient transport, cleaning, filling out flow sheets) mixed in with a few technical responsibilities (IV starts, running pumps, pushing meds). Anyone who pays any attention to what nurses do will immediately notice the following:

1) Some nurses have a two year degree. Others have a four year degree. A few have masters or PhDs. Yet there are nurses with all these degrees doing the same jobs. Why all the extra education if a nurse with an associates degree can be everything from a floor nurse to a nurse manager? It's to justify higher pay.

2) Every job done by nurses gets done by aides and techs in other settings. In the military, we take kids fresh out of high school, send them to a couple months of corps school, and they are capable of starting IVs, giving meds, doing crichs, etc. So apparently you don't even really need two years of school to do the job.

Clearly they make far more than anyone can honestly say is reasonable.

Granted much of what nurses do is technical stuff but you really want a smart nurse (like me, for example) at your bedside when you're going downhill and no one can get hold of your physician. I speak from experience as an aide, ARMY medic (91C), LPN, and masters level RN.

 

[zenman]

I am a social worker at a psychiatric hospital in Chicago. My primary role is family therapy. On a daily basis I meet new patients, do probably 2-4 one hour family therapy sessions, and do variety of case management duties for my patients. It is an intellectually demanding job, and I have a master's degree. My salary is 37k. This is actually a good salary, considering it was a 30% increase from my previous job. I'm not complaining about being underpaid, I just don't feel I am paid fairly in relation to what nurses get paid. I'm not sure how it works at med-surg facility but in the psychiatric hospital, most nurses sit behind the nurses station and chill all while making at a minimum double my salary. Now of course there are nurses that do work hard, but I would say more than half do not deserve to me making $40-50/hr based on the amount of work they do. The reason in my opinion healthcare spending has gotten so out of control is because nurses want to paid like doctors.

Get a grip. Everyone wants to be paid like doctors, but we know it won't happen. Sitting down doing Family Therapy is not the same as being with patients for a full shift, nor are you likely to have been attacked by violent patients. I know three nurses who had to change careers after surgery for neck injuries from attacks by patients.

 

[Clio]

I don't know where these inflated nursing salaries are coming from!

I was gonna say...

Around here, new grads start in the low to mid 20's. I have (almost) 25 years experience, and I was offered $30/hr. Whoopie.

 

[Josh L.Ac.]

Do you write for Crossfire or something. You have a talent for making a consistently inane point such that it distorts the original idea.

Anyway with all that alphabet soup after your name I'm sure your on the fast track for napoleonic nursing dictator school so you can compensate for your small academic weenie with a white coat of your own. I'm no match for such wizardry and so I'll just retreat back into the little hole I crawled out of.

Yeah, since my master's degree in acupuncture has so much to do with nursing, as will my [possible] future AA degree.


Not sure why you are afraid of my wizardry when you display an excellent ability to combo a red herring and ad hominem. I understand not wanting to admit that you have never seen the example you posted, but the way you hid it behind such an exquisite display of verbosity combined with two logical fallacies...bravo!


I'm sure you will do a wonderful job on the writing part of the MCAT.

 

[Nasrudin]

Yeah, since my master's degree in acupuncture has so much to do with nursing, as will my [possible] future AA degree.


Not sure why you are afraid of my wizardry when you display an excellent ability to combo a red herring and ad hominem. I understand not wanting to admit that you have never seen the example you posted, but the way you hid it behind such an exquisite display of verbosity combined with two logical fallacies...bravo!


I'm sure you will do a wonderful job on the writing part of the MCAT.

Look I don't know anything about ad hummerim or Red fish. I don't care to argue. So I'll just say: Mr. RN I respect the job that you as an individual do. But as someone who has seen the nursing field from the boot tread up I can attest to a dark underbelly that most either seem not to notice or are too busy to care. Since I have noticed and am apparently free with respects to time I draw attention to it.

What it amounts to is rule by the masses. I recently investigated some threads where Tired and others were explaining what the intern feels when faced with the brunt attack of the nursing field and I realized I'm not the only one that has felt the punishment they can dish out with impunity.

So while it is all very well and good to say that nursing is the princess profession of the downtrodden my experience leads me more to the picture of a soviet style dictatorship.

So dissect my rhetoric if that pleases you but all I ask is that you look at this idea and account for your perception of the reality or unreality of it. That is what I was trying to point out to you--deal with what I am saying, if you disagree I welcome the discussion. Praise Jesus...I am not a lawyer or an intellectual.

 

[Nasrudin]

As extension of a rule by masses dynamic I would like to point out that in my opinion there is a fundamental irony in the nursing pedagogy that maintains that its interests are the interests of patients.

I disagree with this notion. What the patient needs is a well run, efficient system, with the necessary checks and balances only insofar as maximum patient saftey is adhered to. I think the brute force body politic in vogue in hospitals that are run by nurses and carried out by nurses does not resemble the the best interests of the patient. A rule by masses is dangerous to accuracy and professionalism. I firmly believe in a republic run by physicians with check and balances only against any gross misconduct where the nurses are properly and directly in the service of patients at the bedside instead of walking around in white coats ever engaging in the dynamics of power and politics.

So I point out what I see as a conflict of interest from my perspective with regards to patient care. I have never seen a physician bully others on this playground. They may be indifferent or aloof, but that holds nothing to the horrendous unprofessional bullying i have witnessed by nurses who do so because there is no check against this behavior as the entire management structure of the hospital I have worked at is white-coated nurses.

 

[caroladybelle]

A suggestion to those that feel like nurses make too much money or have too much power.

Try working as one for about 10 years in a community (read: nonteaching facility, nonunion and even better, For-Profit) facility.

Most of us are not unionized, and most of us are in the community hospitals..... and things are much different there. But few interns or premeds see the conditions there.

There are also two sides to each story...many of those calls, rules, paperwork that nurses have to make/enforce are not things that we do by choice but things that are mandated by someone higher up ....usually with an MD/PhD/MBA/Jd beside their name. And WE get called on the carpet if YOU do not do all the proper paperwork, etc.

I doubt as to whether this will make any difference, but most of us are not out to make you miserable. I have yet to see nurses crowing gloriously over how they "owned an intern" or really "got an MD real good"....even on nursing BBs.

 

[Faebinder]

A suggestion to those that feel like nurses make too much money or have too much power.

Try working as one for about 10 years in a community (read: nonteaching facility, nonunion and even better, For-Profit) facility.

Most of us are not unionized, and most of us are in the community hospitals..... and things are much different there. But few interns or premeds see the conditions there.

There are also two sides to each story...many of those calls, rules, paperwork that nurses have to make/enforce are not things that we do by choice but things that are mandated by someone higher up ....usually with an MD/PhD/MBA/Jd beside their name. And WE get called on the carpet if YOU do not do all the proper paperwork, etc.

I doubt as to whether this will make any difference, but most of us are not out to make you miserable. I have yet to see nurses crowing gloriously over how they "owned an intern" or really "got an MD real good"....even on nursing BBs.

Obviously you have little knowledge of how the higher system that bestows the evil down to us works. No sane phyisician in their right mind would ask for more paperwork. Medicare and the insurance companies who refuse to pay without them are the culprit so please aim correctly. I am sure most posters here have no idea what insane paperwork a physician fills... I am sure many are not aware of the evil place known as "the physician's office" where the secertary/assistant has piles and piles of death certificates/orthopedic devices/home care approval/surgery preapproval/home insulin approval/home education approval/job leaves/out of work/disability/script clarifications/account payable/...etc...etc and my favorite.. patient's phone calls with questions to the doctors.... all to be taken care of by yours truly. So no..the paperwork is not mandated by some poor shmuck doctor who really doesnt wanna read the nurse notes or the pharmacist note or the social worker or the phyiscal therapist or the respiratory therapist or the janitor's notes.

 

[caroladybelle]

Obviously you have little knowledge of how the higher system that bestows the evil down to us works. No sane phyisician in their right mind would ask for more paperwork.

After 20 years in this business and having worked at National Institutes of Health, I would say I have plenty of knowledge about it.

And I have dealt with plenty of MDs that are not "in their right mind" and are less than "sane".

And as a someone that has worked in the community (not in teaching facilities where attendings can torture those below them in rank), I can also attest that there are plenty of MDs that leave much of the paperwork to others. Try getting a private MD to actually check mark the med rec currently required by JCAHO, or write out all the meds "as at home". They will do everything to get around it.

 

[Faebinder]

After 20 years in this business and having worked at National Institutes of Health, I would say I have plenty of knowledge about it.

And I have dealt with plenty of MDs that are not "in their right mind" and are less than "sane".

And as a someone that has worked in the community (not in teaching facilities where attendings can torture those below them in rank), I can also attest that there are plenty of MDs that leave much of the paperwork to others. Try getting a private MD to actually check mark the med rec currently required by JCAHO, or write out all the meds "as at home". They will do everything to get around it.

Thus proving my point.... it's not an MD that is requiring it. Feel free to point at JCAHO or the other institutions sponsered by insurance companies.

 

[BklynRN]

I am a RN in NYC and I work in Managed Long Term Care for a big Medicaid/Medicare HMO in Manhattan. I was 21 when I became and RN and started RN school at 19. I mostly do visiting nursing/home care. I make 100,000K plus a year not including bonus, get 8 weeks of vacation, .03% salary increase a year (if you met your goals) and I only have to see 3 people a day- I'm home by 2PM. You can keep you hospital jobs and your night schedule.

 

[NeuResurgens]

I generally try not to say that a certain profession makes too much money without actually experiencing their jobs on a more extended basis.

I make exceptions to this rule for politicians and reality TV stars.