Official 2016 Rank Order List & "Help Me Rank" Thread

[HarryMTieboutMD]

So how is Emory perceived POST-nemeroff fiasco? It still seems very strong as a program.

Still very strong with competitive and impressive residents.

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[noodles198709]

You rarely go wrong with strong gut feelings. But I will add that I find the ranking curious myself given I consider UCLA Harbor to have stronger psychotherapy training than that of USC and I argue it has a better reputation. As for UCSD, keep in mind that over 60% of UCSD grads stay in San Diego, so if your heart is set on living in San Diego then you're best bet would be to go there and take extra initiative to solidify psychotherapy training (which can be done outside of core residency courses/didactics).

This is for everyone, but try to pick up on the "culture" of each program. They are as different as countries of the world. Penn feels very different than UCSD than Harbor than Davis. You will be living in that milieu, so you better be sure you have some positive chi with its culture to rank it highly.

I would agree with another comment that it's hard to get an entirely accurate feel for the culture of each of these schools in a single interview day. Would you mind commenting on some cultural differences you've noticed between USC vs Harbor vs UCSD that might be difficult for an applicant to pick up on ? I'm familiar with the culture at Davis, for the most part. I think I figured that (besides differences in reputation), USC and UCLA Harbor had similar cultures due to similar patient populations being treated. I can see how UCSD is different as far as that's concerned.

 

[HarryMTieboutMD]

I've been looking at FRIEDA and I've noticed that the reported average work hours per week don't match up with the impressions I got during my interviews. For example, Case Western reports 60 hours per week average, but they seemed like a more chill program. Residents talked as if they had bountiful free time and they seemed very relaxed. Emory and UCSD, which people describe as having heavy workloads, report 55 hours per week average. The average for all programs I interviewed with is about 52 hours per week with the max being 60 and minimum being 40. I'm NOT complaining about these hours. I'm just curious as to whether my impressions are wrong or FRIEDA is inaccurate. I guess it could just be that factors other than the number of hours worked are affecting stress and fatigue levels. Any thoughts?

Residents don't like doing surveys (especially when you have better things to do), so people probably are just guessing without putting too much thought into it. Also, there is a tendency at some places for the residents to exaggerate how much they work, when in reality, compared with other specialties, even the most labor intensive psych residencies are not that bad.

 

[scudiera]

I'm torn between my home program, which is a nationally-respected Southern program in a major metro and a great CA program for #1. I'm pretty loathe to academics/big-R research, more interested in management/leadership. Because my home program would at worst be #2, the rest of the list doesn't really matter (Longwood, Pitt, and then some other Southern programs, if you must know). I know prestige shouldn't factor in but I worry I'll always wonder what if... And I just don't know if I'm letting my love for my home program and home city (where I hope to return and work) cloud career opportunities or connections (I grew up on the East coast, so this isn't where I was born but it's become home).

I don't have a ton of debt, high 5 figures, so I could reasonably afford to live in CA (although loans will be deferred for the first 2 years), though my lifestyle (despite being single) will be more budgeted than where I currently live. I'm happy where I am right now, really happy, and being on the opposite coast from family and half a country away from my friends, in a state where I don't know anyone, makes me nervous. That said, I do like the city of this CA program a lot. I don't think the general training at CA program is any better than my home program, just different - it does have some unique training opportunities that I don't have at home but the home program's residents place/match very well after residency. I ran into a number of people on the interview trail who went to "top program X" (some who are medschool friends) because "it's worth it, right?" but they all seemed to be itching to go back to where they were from, even 2 years in. I don't want to go somewhere just because of the name and begrudgingly push myself through 4 years.

The worst part is that I've told this CA program they're my first choice, and they responded positively, so now I feel boxed in. It was their positive response that made me realize how real the move could be. Just really torn, and worried that if I spurn this CA program after telling them they were #1 it will reflect very poorly and follow me around. I don't expect answers from anybody here...am I out of my mind to even think about ranking my home program #1 considering the CA program, Longwood, and other opportunities on my plate (that I feel I'm very competitive for)? Am I realistically limiting myself career-wise?

 

[clausewitz2]

I'm torn between my home program, which is a nationally-respected Southern program in a major metro and a great CA program for #1. I'm pretty loathe to academics/big-R research, more interested in management/leadership. Because my home program would at worst be #2, the rest of the list doesn't really matter (Longwood, Pitt, and then some other Southern programs, if you must know). I know prestige shouldn't factor in but I worry I'll always wonder what if... And I just don't know if I'm letting my love for my home program and home city (where I hope to return and work) cloud career opportunities or connections (I grew up on the East coast, so this isn't where I was born but it's become home).

I don't have a ton of debt, high 5 figures, so I could reasonably afford to live in CA (although loans will be deferred for the first 2 years), though my lifestyle (despite being single) will be more budgeted than where I currently live. I'm happy where I am right now, really happy, and being on the opposite coast from family and half a country away from my friends, in a state where I don't know anyone, makes me nervous. That said, I do like the city of this CA program a lot. I don't think the general training at CA program is any better than my home program, just different - it does have some unique training opportunities that I don't have at home but the home program's residents place/match very well after residency. I ran into a number of people on the interview trail who went to "top program X" (some who are medschool friends) because "it's worth it, right?" but they all seemed to be itching to go back to where they were from, even 2 years in. I don't want to go somewhere just because of the name and begrudgingly push myself through 4 years.

The worst part is that I've told this CA program they're my first choice, and they responded positively, so now I feel boxed in. It was their positive response that made me realize how real the move could be. Just really torn, and worried that if I spurn this CA program after telling them they were #1 it will reflect very poorly and follow me around. I don't expect answers from anybody here...am I out of my mind to even think about ranking my home program #1 considering the CA program, Longwood, and other opportunities on my plate (that I feel I'm very competitive for)? Am I realistically limiting myself career-wise?

Reneging on a promised number 1 ranking is really more about how willing you are to break promises than anything else. This is not a tiny surgical subspecialty where one person or one department with a grudge is going to make it impossible for you to find a job or a fellowship.

So how much would being dishonorable weigh on you?

 

[downwithDTB]

So how much would being dishonorable weigh on you?

...that depends on what the meaning of is... is...

 

[WalterDonnie]

You could always just email the pd after match day and let them know you had changed your mind at the last minute. I'm sure they understand

 

[scudiera]

Oh I'd totally call/email the PD after my list is finalized and explain if I do change my mind. Not afraid of that, I liked the PD a lot, and fortunately it's a desirable program in a desirable city so they won't be hurting for great candidates. Don't think it's dishonorable necessarily. Do worry that it reflects poorly on my judgement/knowledge of myself to this program though if I once told them they were my first choice.

 

[WalterDonnie]

Oh I'd totally call/email the PD after my list is finalized and explain if I do change my mind. Not afraid of that, I liked the PD a lot, and fortunately it's a desirable program in a desirable city so they won't be hurting for great candidates. Don't think it's dishonorable necessarily. Do worry that it reflects poorly on my judgement/knowledge of myself to this program though if I once told them they were my first choice.

Nah I doubt it. It's a huge decision, it's only human to have a change of heart once in a while. They all went through this too, so I'm sure they get it.

 

[DuskPhilosophy]

...that depends on what the meaning of is... is...

Alright Clinton...

 

[shan564]

4) Washu (a lot of research opportunities, loved no call pgy-3, st. louis was ok- i liked central west end, but not sure about the city overall, therapy training is ok, but not that, i liked residents, little too intense compared to socal, but i could still see myself hanging out with them).

I'm a bit late here, but if you thought the residents at WashU were intense, you probably spent too much time talking to me (which isn't a surprise because I talk a lot).

Also, since you mentioned underserved focus - we see primarily (almost exclusively) underserved patients too. We don't go out of our way to advertise that for some reason, but I think it's a big strength of the clinical training.

 

[HarryMTieboutMD]

I'm torn between my home program, which is a nationally-respected Southern program in a major metro and a great CA program for #1. I'm pretty loathe to academics/big-R research, more interested in management/leadership. Because my home program would at worst be #2, the rest of the list doesn't really matter (Longwood, Pitt, and then some other Southern programs, if you must know). I know prestige shouldn't factor in but I worry I'll always wonder what if... And I just don't know if I'm letting my love for my home program and home city (where I hope to return and work) cloud career opportunities or connections (I grew up on the East coast, so this isn't where I was born but it's become home).

I don't have a ton of debt, high 5 figures, so I could reasonably afford to live in CA (although loans will be deferred for the first 2 years), though my lifestyle (despite being single) will be more budgeted than where I currently live. I'm happy where I am right now, really happy, and being on the opposite coast from family and half a country away from my friends, in a state where I don't know anyone, makes me nervous. That said, I do like the city of this CA program a lot. I don't think the general training at CA program is any better than my home program, just different - it does have some unique training opportunities that I don't have at home but the home program's residents place/match very well after residency. I ran into a number of people on the interview trail who went to "top program X" (some who are medschool friends) because "it's worth it, right?" but they all seemed to be itching to go back to where they were from, even 2 years in. I don't want to go somewhere just because of the name and begrudgingly push myself through 4 years.

The worst part is that I've told this CA program they're my first choice, and they responded positively, so now I feel boxed in. It was their positive response that made me realize how real the move could be. Just really torn, and worried that if I spurn this CA program after telling them they were #1 it will reflect very poorly and follow me around. I don't expect answers from anybody here...am I out of my mind to even think about ranking my home program #1 considering the CA program, Longwood, and other opportunities on my plate (that I feel I'm very competitive for)? Am I realistically limiting myself career-wise?

Even if you don't stay in academia, where you train still has some bearing (and especially so considering what you want to do...). Also keep in mind that residents change their minds in terms of career directions, so my recommendation for competitive applicants is to go to a place where you will be unlimited in what you can do post residency. Realize the "what ifs" are going to come up during difficult moments of training wherever you go. I remember during a really bad call night with disaster patients early in intern year thinking "I should have ranked my #2 choice #1"... but I am glad I ranked my current program #1 and would do it over and over again x100000.

More simply, you told a program you are #1 (I wouldn't make much of any reciprocation), but you obviously did so for a reason, so in fairness to the PD, I would stick with that program as your #1.

 

[Fay2017]

Does anyone have any input about St Elizabeth's (Caritas) in Boston, MA? I was not too impressed on interview day. The PD seems nice, but the residents did not seem enthusiastic and were mostly IMGs. Something had mentioned that Dr. Carlat used to be affiliated with the program but I'm not sure if this is true now. Any input? Thanks

 

[Rogue Penguin]

Hey, guys, I've got most of my list figured out now, but I'm putting Emory and UCSD right next to each other and I'm having trouble deciding which should come first.

Emory seems better for forensics.

UCSD is a strong program, but most graduates seem to stay in San Diego, and I'm not sure if I'm interested in doing that.

Any comments on UCSD v Emory?

 

[J ROD]

Not sure where to rank ETSU after I got an email today saying the pd resigned and left the program 5 days before the rank list is do. lol

 

[JKinSC]

Not sure where to rank ETSU after I got an email today saying the pd resigned and left the program 5 days before the rank list is do. lol

Honestly, as screwed up as this whole process has been with them, he was the best part about that program for me. Thinking about not ranking them at all at this point, but I need to sleep on it first.

 

[J ROD]

Honestly, as screwed up as this whole process has been with them, he was the best part about that program for me. Thinking about not ranking them at all at this point, but I need to sleep on it first.

Yeah, he was the best thing I saw besides the area itself. Someone has to be last. Just saying........lol

 

[philosophize]

Hey, guys, I've got most of my list figured out now, but I'm putting Emory and UCSD right next to each other and I'm having trouble deciding which should come first.

Emory seems better for forensics.

UCSD is a strong program, but most graduates seem to stay in San Diego, and I'm not sure if I'm interested in doing that.

Any comments on UCSD v Emory?

hey RP, so i've been a long-time lurker, but i wanted to know your thoughts between UCSD and HSS, i'm currently trying to decide where to rank these 2 programs (also UCLA-SFV)

 

[BullsDoctor]

Hi can anyone comment on the two Alabama programs- Univ of South Alabama (Mobile) and UAB (Birmingham) in terms of hours and moonlighting?

I had those interviews a long time ago, but I barely remember USA had better hours, but can't remember the specifics on the hours or moonlighting opportunities. UAB of course is a bigger institution (but I have a no interest in research or academia).

 

[Psych747]

Hi can anyone comment on the two Alabama programs- Univ of South Alabama (Mobile) and UAB (Birmingham) in terms of hours and moonlighting?

I had those interviews a long time ago, but I barely remember USA had better hours, but can't remember the specifics on the hours or moonlighting opportunities. UAB of course is a bigger institution (but I have a no interest in research or academia).

One of my close friends is a resident at UAB. He isn't happy and thinks the hours are terrible. He also mentioned some key faculty are leaving and program will be understaffed. Also, residents are overworked!

Having said that, UAB is a much better program than USAL. I didn't interview at either but based on reputation I can say that. Plus Birmingham much better to live than Mobile.

 

[BullsDoctor]

One of my close friends is a resident at UAB. He isn't happy and thinks the hours are terrible. He also mentioned some key faculty are leaving and program will be understaffed. Also, residents are overworked!

Having said that, UAB is a much better program than USAL. I didn't interview at either but based on reputation I can say that. Plus Birmingham much better to live than Mobile.

I sort of got that feeling during my interview at UAB in terms of residents being overworked. USAL wasn't much better either...i remember one of the residents saying you still have to come to work on post-call days. Gut feeling says USAL is more relaxed...wish i knew the specifics though (the residents were being pretty vague when I asked them during my interview)

 

[Psych747]

I sort of got that feeling during my interview at UAB in terms of residents being overworked. USAL wasn't much better either...i remember one of the residents saying you still have to come to work on post-call days. Gut feeling says USAL is more relaxed...wish i knew the specifics though (the residents were being pretty vague when I asked them during my interview)

I know first hand via friend that UAB is overworked program, and key faculty are leaving. BUT it is also a more reputable program compared to USAL

 

[xjoc]

Hey, guys, I've got most of my list figured out now, but I'm putting Emory and UCSD right next to each other and I'm having trouble deciding which should come first.

Emory seems better for forensics.

UCSD is a strong program, but most graduates seem to stay in San Diego, and I'm not sure if I'm interested in doing that.

Any comments on UCSD v Emory?

I'm pretty sure people stay in San Diego because they want to, not because they don't have other options. I wouldn't worry about that when ranking.

 

[darkhope]

Hey guys so after we get the email titled, "Confirmation of Certified ROL," do we have to press anything else? or is that all we have to do? and then just wait till March?

And I noticed when I ended up ranking the programs, I didn't even bother opening up my notes or folders...just ranked purely on my feelings and my memories...hopefully I don't regret =)

 

[FlowRate]

I have a stupid question that is actually related to my rank list, although it's not about programs per se.

What does q3 overnight call really mean? (ICU as part of medicine at one of the programs.) Day off / Normal Day / Overnight day?

 

[notdeadyet]

Likely means:

Monday is a normal day (which could be 5am to 9pm), Tuesday is a 24 hour shift (could be 7am-7am), Wednesday is off, Thursday is a normal day (which could be 5am to 9pm), etc.

That's a tough schedule....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[FlowRate]

Likely means:

Monday is a normal day (which could be 5am to 9pm), Tuesday is a 24 hour shift (could be 7am-7am), Wednesday is off, Thursday is a normal day (which could be 5am to 9pm), etc.

That's a tough schedule....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah for some reason I thought they had switched to a two-team/nightfloat system in the ICU, but that's the schedule that was listed in the informational stuff when I was looking through it today. Very tough.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Likely means:

Monday is a normal day (which could be 5am to 9pm), Tuesday is a 24 hour shift (could be 7am-7am), Wednesday is "off", Thursday is a normal day (which could be 5am to 9pm), etc.

That's a tough schedule....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Fixed it for you.

 

[FlowRate]

This can't be correct. you cant work more than q4 30hr overnight call, and this is only if the program has got a waiver for duty hours from the ACGME. at the vast majority of programs interns don't take overnight call. you may want to clarify if it's important to you.

Yeah good point, got in touch with someone and it has indeed changed to 7-7 day shifts only (for interns.)

 

[velvet89]

Was wondering if anyone had any input about Temple? Interested in Psychosomatic medicine and research. I like that they have a research track even though its relatively new. Don't mind that it doesn't have fellowships since I plan on doing that elsewhere. I'm a big foodie, so im excited about Philly. So far, I'm between there and U of Miami. I really liked the program during interviews but im turned off by the mixed opinions. Some residents had published multiple times since residency (mostly those that worked with Dr. Nemeroff). However, some of the residents definitely didn't seem very happy and the academics/didactics seem weak (but BEACH). Thoughts?

 

[waterflying]

Hey guys so after we get the email titled, "Confirmation of Certified ROL," do we have to press anything else? or is that all we have to do? and then just wait till March?

And I noticed when I ended up ranking the programs, I didn't even bother opening up my notes or folders...just ranked purely on my feelings and my memories...hopefully I don't regret =)

Can someone else confirm this? I have this same question as well. Thanks

 

[Rogue Penguin]

hey RP, so i've been a long-time lurker, but i wanted to know your thoughts between UCSD and HSS, i'm currently trying to decide where to rank these 2 programs (also UCLA-SFV)

I think UCSD is not a good match for me, because it's very far from my family and they want you to take your vacation in two 2 week blocks. As far as I can tell, that means I could only leave San Diego twice a year. That would be pretty much the end of my current social life, so I'd be starting over in terms of social support while simultaneously adopting a very demanding schedule. Also my parents are both in poor health, so I'd prefer more, shorter breaks that would allow for more potential visits home. Additionally, my impression is that San Diego a program that's best for people who are "internally motivated" and "self starters". I've seen a few separate places where people have said they would have liked more career guidance than they got at San Diego. No one in my family or close friends is currently in medicine or academia, so I need guidance. Additionally, it seems like the supervision for psychotherapy is more difficult to get and limited to fewer therapy modalities. Finally, San Diego is light on forensics opportunities. From what I have to go on, I feel like it's best for me to rank it lower... but I wonder if I'm making a mistake a lot. It's a major source of stress for me atm. This stuff probably isn't what you care about.

UCSD definitely impressed me. I got the impression that the residents are well-rounded, interesting people. You get to rotate at a variety of clinical sites that are pretty spread out through the greater San Diego area. Strengths, imo, are reputation; research opportunities in addiction, suicide prevention, basic and clinical neuroscience, mood disorders, and anxiety disorders; eating disorders exposure is built into the curriculum; child psych; addiction psych; benefits; weather; location; unique Literature of Madness seminar. Relative weaknesses: forensics, psychotherapy, clinical services that are heavily resident dependent, less resident cohesion due to the spread out training sites and didactics that don't coincide. Psychotherapy patients up to this point have been 100% uninsured and indigent, but they're trying to add insured and more affluent patients this year so residents can get more varied experience. San Diego is the most beautiful city I've been to in the United States. The weather is always perfect. UCSD offers excellent benefits and on top of that you can get the Stahl psychopharm masters at no cost and you can get training at the San Diego Psychoanalytic Institute at no cost. Moonlighting opportunities are available. Dr. Zisook seems amazing, and I think he makes a point of being highly responsive to resident feedback. Some of the residents kind of rubbed me the wrong way, but I think maybe I'm just not used to Californians.

Harvard South Shore. The residents here seemed well-rounded, very happy, and more cohesive than average. My impression is that the HSS program is less prestigious than UCSD but that its reputation is on the upswing. You get a full day of didactics each week and completely flexible use of your vacation days. Maybe I'm just a dork, but the opportunity to work at McLean for even a few months seems exciting to me. You get access to the whole Harvard system for research opportunities and electives. IMPART seems cool, as do the COOL leadership track and the RPTR track. They have a forensics rotation and the PD seemed interested in helping me find more opportunities to explore that interest. Some people find the PD off-putting, but I did not have that problem. I'm interested in LGBT mental health, and the Brockton VA seems to have a lot going on in that arena. I can't remember the specifics right now, but I had an extensive conversation with a current resident about it and there was at least a transgender clinic and special therapy groups for LGBT related issues. There's a lot of commuting at this program, and the snow in Boston is no joke. I'm kind of intimidated by the prospect of having to go to work over a longer distance through the snow, but I'm sure I could figure it out. If driving a lot bothers you, this probably wouldn't be a great place to go. In summary, it seems like there are opportunities to pursue all but the most specialized psych interests (no psycho-oncology that I'm aware of) and the program has a good balance of teaching and clinical learning. EDIT: just to clarify, I really liked the HSS PD. she seems like she really cares about the residents and puts a lot of effort into making the program as good as possible. I enjoyed her enthusiasm for the program's philosophy.

I've typed a lot here. I hope some of it is helpful.

 

[Rogue Penguin]

Was wondering if anyone had any input about Temple? Interested in Psychosomatic medicine and research. I like that they have a research track even though its relatively new. Don't mind that it doesn't have fellowships since I plan on doing that elsewhere. I'm a big foodie, so im excited about Philly. So far, I'm between there and U of Miami. I really liked the program during interviews but im turned off by the mixed opinions. Some residents had published multiple times since residency (mostly those that worked with Dr. Nemeroff). However, some of the residents definitely didn't seem very happy and the academics/didactics seem weak (but BEACH). Thoughts?

One hour per week of intern year didactics seems pretty extreme to me. If you strongly prefer learning by doing and think lectures are a waste of time, you could see that as a major strength. At you least you'll have the volume to help make up for the lack of teaching hours? It certainly seems possible to be happy and do well at Miami. The list of fellowships residents match to seemed strong. You might need to be a very self-motivated person in terms of teaching and looking for other opportunities. And it sounds like you probably want to do your best to be a part of the "in crowd". The facilities are impressive. Getting exposure to all the different South American and Latin American cultures sounds cool. Miami is hot but seemed way cooler than Philadelphia to me.

 

[Freddie Mercury]

Dr. Zisook seems amazing, and I think he makes a point of being highly responsive to resident feedback.

Great writeup Rogue. I thought Zisook was amazing also. But he is retiring, he was supposed to leave after his academic year but they couldn't find anyone so he is staying on for another year.

Actually this leads to a more general question that I've had, in regards to how important a program director really is. Some places I interviewed at, the residents said they barely talked to them, and some places it seemed like the program director was a dad-away-from-home. On person said the main role of the program director is to make sure the program is meeting ACGME requirements. The reason I ask is, several of my programs are currently run by interims (UCI, USC), are brand new (Loma Linda) or hinted that they will be retiring within the next few years (UCSD, UCLA-Semel).

 

[angleslam08]

any thoughts on NSLIJ's program? Overall it is a super solid program but... I feel somewhat concerned at schizophrenia-centric research and there seeming to not be much else. Also I'm wondering how the overall 'north well' financial/system movement is going to influence how the clinical service/training is run. I'm from the area and could see myself sticking around but am worried about how strong an academic/career trajectory can have if I want to explore sth else other than schizophrenia.

 

[notdeadyet]

Actually this leads to a more general question that I've had, in regards to how important a program director really is.

Important. People at programs where the program director isn't very good are more inclined to say that PDs aren't important. You tend to not miss what you didn't have.

But when you work with a good one, you can appreciate the job they do. They evangelize the department and get opportunities for more varied clinical experiences around different hospitals and in the community. They keep on top of developments in the field and are open-minded to experimenting to stay ahead of the curve. They nurture the interests of individual residents while maintaining a positive environment for everyone at the same time. They are active in the broader psychiatric community as well, which is a HUGE boon come career time, as they can kick open a lot of doors professionally for folks looking at more competitive positions that can sometimes be a black box.

You can definitely thrive at a program with a ho-hum program director, but there will always be a quality ceiling. Programs with weak program directors tend to tread water. This is a problem because things stagnate. You can look at some programs with weak PDs and see that the programs are just riding on their reputation, and you can't tread water for too long.

If you have a place where the PD isn't strong, I wouldn't make that a deal killer, but it would be a check in the cons box. I'd look hard at places with interim program directors (or places soon to have them). It's not a problem in and of itself, but you need to look at a program's track record for leadership (if the prior PDs were strong, the one to come likely is as well, as the selection committee is probably similar).

 

[angleslam08]

Hi! Can anybody help me with this list. I live in Jersey city.I am looking for reputation and comfortable living in psych, any help in ranking is welcome..

U.Virginia
U.Maryland
Drexel
SUNY upstate
SUNY downstate
ECU/Vidant
Penn state

Hey, i think there's an easy divide with reputation amongst those options.

Conventional/'lay' reputation = UVA, UMaryland, Drexel, Penn state.

within the field suny downstate residents are regarded pretty legit, and can land a great fellowship spot. (will say there are IMG's (stronger than some AMGs applicants), if that is a downer for you).

UVA sounds pretty comfortable from what i've heard. Most of your others are more of an acquired taste location in terms of comfort imo.

 

[withoutface123]

I think I touched on this earlier, but can anyone help me out with USC v UCLA/SFV v UCLA/Harbor?

USC - had an overall really good feeling from the day. The leadership seemed really down to earth and residents appreciated them, and I was impressed at how many residents showed up to the dinner and the lunch. They seemed to have a really close vibe with each other, and still demonstrated a wide variety of interests. Lots of paid vacation days. Lots of food paid for (could be good or bad). They do have an interim chair, but I got the sense that they were glad the old one is gone, and that may have been one of the sources of USC's iffy reputation for a while. I asked specific questions about how the program responded to concerns from the residents and they were able to answer me. My only cons, honestly, are the drive to Hawkins (I'd be commuting there 9 months out of my first two years) and the lack of variety in the medicine months (4 months inpatient wards or Peds, divided up however you want). What am I missing that make people still question the program?

UCLA-SFV - another really good vibe-from-the-residents type place. I am 50/50 on the constant driving to and from sites, especially at midday, but I do like all the sites that we saw. Light call schedule. Good psych ED experience. UCLA benefits. I was iffy on the PD, we had perhaps one of the most uninspired interviews on the trail, but he was still nice. The APD and the rest of the leadership were incredibly nice. Residents emphasized to me that they are happy and enjoy their jobs.

UCLA-Harbor - this is such a puzzle for me. For a long time I kept hearing about what a solid place this was to churn out great psychiatrists and that is definitely still the case that I hear. But I am basing my trepidation with the program almost entirely off feeling. They do seem to work really hard. The residents had a hint of tired in their eyes. I was not a fan of the facilities at all, and I feel really bad that that suddenly became a factor for me. Excellent moonlighting, of course. They seem to get really good at clinic, but I'm also a bit hesitant at the whole "Autonomy from day 1!" Kind of thing. The residents at the happy hour did seem close but, again, tired. I guess, like USC, I want to be enlightened on if I completely missed something about what puts this one in the upper half of the SoCal programs.

Thank you all! This forum has been immensely helpful.

 

[darkhope]

I was also wondering about usc, some faculty said they don't have much exposure to working with the middle class/upper class, mainly the target population is the poor, which is great, but I want the middle class exposure too for my training. Anyone have any thoughts?

 

[poiuytre]

How was it hinted that the PD for UCLA-Semel is retiring soon?

 

[hebel]

Had a question about one program I interviewed at thats kind of throwing me for a loop- Geisinger in Danville PA. Overall, I really liked the residents and faculty I met as well as the program overall. Basically, it was one of the best "fits" overall and I'm considering ranking it pretty high.

What's confusing is that it is a new program, and I would be in its 2nd group of residents. Is a program being this new a bad idea (enough to ignore it being a great fit) if you have other options?

Was also wondering if anyone had a better idea of the work hours at UConn. I saw in another post someone thought they might be high, but I didn't get that impression on interview day.

 

[Psych747]

Had a question about one program I interviewed at thats kind of throwing me for a loop- Geisinger in Danville PA. Overall, I really liked the residents and faculty I met as well as the program overall. Basically, it was one of the best "fits" overall and I'm considering ranking it pretty high.

What's confusing is that it is a new program, and I would be in its 2nd group of residents. Is a program being this new a bad idea (enough to ignore it being a great fit) if you have other options?

Was also wondering if anyone had a better idea of the work hours at UConn. I saw in another post someone thought they might be high, but I didn't get that impression on interview day.

I can provide some input on UConn based on my interview impression and several residents I came across. It is brutal, in a sense you have to rotate at multiple sites and there is a lot of driving involved. As far as I know there are multiple hospitals and sites involved thoughout the residency and it can be tiresome and hard for some.

 

[philosophize]

I think UCSD is not a good match for me, because it's very far from my family and they want you to take your vacation in two 2 week blocks. As far as I can tell, that means I could only leave San Diego twice a year. That would be pretty much the end of my current social life, so I'd be starting over in terms of social support while simultaneously adopting a very demanding schedule. Also my parents are both in poor health, so I'd prefer more, shorter breaks that would allow for more potential visits home. Additionally, my impression is that San Diego a program that's best for people who are "internally motivated" and "self starters". I've seen a few separate places where people have said they would have liked more career guidance than they got at San Diego. No one in my family or close friends is currently in medicine or academia, so I need guidance. Additionally, it seems like the supervision for psychotherapy is more difficult to get and limited to fewer therapy modalities. Finally, San Diego is light on forensics opportunities. From what I have to go on, I feel like it's best for me to rank it lower... but I wonder if I'm making a mistake a lot. It's a major source of stress for me atm. This stuff probably isn't what you care about.

UCSD definitely impressed me. I got the impression that the residents are well-rounded, interesting people. You get to rotate at a variety of clinical sites that are pretty spread out through the greater San Diego area. Strengths, imo, are reputation; research opportunities in addiction, suicide prevention, basic and clinical neuroscience, mood disorders, and anxiety disorders; eating disorders exposure is built into the curriculum; child psych; addiction psych; benefits; weather; location; unique Literature of Madness seminar. Relative weaknesses: forensics, psychotherapy, clinical services that are heavily resident dependent, less resident cohesion due to the spread out training sites and didactics that don't coincide. Psychotherapy patients up to this point have been 100% uninsured and indigent, but they're trying to add insured and more affluent patients this year so residents can get more varied experience. San Diego is the most beautiful city I've been to in the United States. The weather is always perfect. UCSD offers excellent benefits and on top of that you can get the Stahl psychopharm masters at no cost and you can get training at the San Diego Psychoanalytic Institute at no cost. Moonlighting opportunities are available. Dr. Zisook seems amazing, and I think he makes a point of being highly responsive to resident feedback. Some of the residents kind of rubbed me the wrong way, but I think maybe I'm just not used to Californians.

Harvard South Shore. The residents here seemed well-rounded, very happy, and more cohesive than average. My impression is that the HSS program is less prestigious than UCSD but that its reputation is on the upswing. You get a full day of didactics each week and completely flexible use of your vacation days. Maybe I'm just a dork, but the opportunity to work at McLean for even a few months seems exciting to me. You get access to the whole Harvard system for research opportunities and electives. IMPART seems cool, as do the COOL leadership track and the RPTR track. They have a forensics rotation and the PD seemed interested in helping me find more opportunities to explore that interest. Some people find the PD off-putting, but I did not have that problem. I'm interested in LGBT mental health, and the Brockton VA seems to have a lot going on in that arena. I can't remember the specifics right now, but I had an extensive conversation with a current resident about it and there was at least a transgender clinic and special therapy groups for LGBT related issues. There's a lot of commuting at this program, and the snow in Boston is no joke. I'm kind of intimidated by the prospect of having to go to work over a longer distance through the snow, but I'm sure I could figure it out. If driving a lot bothers you, this probably wouldn't be a great place to go. In summary, it seems like there are opportunities to pursue all but the most specialized psych interests (no psycho-oncology that I'm aware of) and the program has a good balance of teaching and clinical learning. EDIT: just to clarify, I really liked the HSS PD. she seems like she really cares about the residents and puts a lot of effort into making the program as good as possible. I enjoyed her enthusiasm for the program's philosophy.

I've typed a lot here. I hope some of it is helpful.

For HSS, i sort of have the same issues (i've never lived on the east coast) so commuting through wintery wonderlands can be frightful. I agree with your comments on the PD, I thought she was really nice and welcoming. One thing that actually impressed me thoroughly was the psychotherapy training they receive and the abundant 1:1 supervision that they can get. The "prestige" or name recognition does worry me a bit regarding getting into fellowships and/or jobs not in the area later on

It's ironic bc we have the opposite problem in terms of family/location support, I have more connections in california than boston, but the lack of resident cohesiveness is something that i've been concerned about. I saw it a bit during the lunch, but I didn't have a chance to go to the dinner, so I didn't get as much time with the residents as I would have liked. I really liked the city, Dr. Zisook, and their CAP exposure.

thank you RP for the excellent write up! it definitely helped flush some things out

 

[Not_a_psychic]

Need help figuring out the bottom tier of my rank list. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

St. Louis University: Interview day went pretty well. Enjoyed all interactions with faculty. Residents said some of the faculty were world renown in Schizophrenia research. St. Louis itself didn't seem like a terrible place to live. Granted, I would prefer a place that didn't snow in the winter, but I could deal. My main issue was with the residents. They all just seemed kinda.....odd/awkward. Socializing at the lunch was pretty uncomfortable and unnatural. Majority were FMG, which I usually don't mind, but it seems like language would almost be a barrier to get over. Recent fellowship placements seemed pretty impressive though, so this makes me want to rank it over the new program on my list (Kaweah Delta) listed below.

Kaweah Delta (Visalia, CA): The city of Visalia is small, but it's close to the outdoorsy things my SO and I enjoy (hiking, snowboarding, etc). The program is very new (this would be the 3rd class ever), but the PD Dr. Hilty seems to have a solid handle on where he sees the program going (maybe I'm just sipping too much of the Jesus juice they're offering, idk). I didn't think the call schedule was terrible for PGY1, but after looking back on other call schedules and being ridiculed for having that opinion here on SDN, it seems like it is on the heavy side. To be fair, the residents were a great group and didn't seem "burnt" at all during the interview or dinner. Main thing that is holding me back from ranking it above SLU is how new the program is...Will coming from a new program limit my future fellowship opportunities? I'm pretty set on going into Child/Adolescent. And I'd really like to remain in California for that fellowship. Thoughts?

Thanks to everyone who has posted in these threads over the last few months! Hopefully, we all get our top 5-8 and don't have to worry about dropping this deep into our ranks!

 

[Rogue Penguin]

For HSS, i sort of have the same issues (i've never lived on the east coast) so commuting through wintery wonderlands can be frightful. I agree with your comments on the PD, I thought she was really nice and welcoming. One thing that actually impressed me thoroughly was the psychotherapy training they receive and the abundant 1:1 supervision that they can get. The "prestige" or name recognition does worry me a bit regarding getting into fellowships and/or jobs not in the area later on

It's ironic bc we have the opposite problem in terms of family/location support, I have more connections in california than boston, but the lack of resident cohesiveness is something that i've been concerned about. I saw it a bit during the lunch, but I didn't have a chance to go to the dinner, so I didn't get as much time with the residents as I would have liked. I really liked the city, Dr. Zisook, and their CAP exposure.

thank you RP for the excellent write up! it definitely helped flush some things out

Clearly, the program is strong, but I also feel concerned about resident cohesiveness. It's unfortunate that I don't have any contact info for any residents other than one of the chiefs. I feel like I got that particular chief's perspective on the program but no other residents' perspectives. For me, the program seems like a gamble in terms of my happiness outside of work. Is the schedule so demanding that I'd be unable to make a lot of new friends outside of the program? Would I make a lot of friends within the program? I'm not sure.

 

[Achillees]

I sort of got that feeling during my interview at UAB in terms of residents being overworked. USAL wasn't much better either...i remember one of the residents saying you still have to come to work on post-call days. Gut feeling says USAL is more relaxed...wish i knew the specifics though (the residents were being pretty vague when I asked them during my interview)

That's odd. I didn't get that feeling from them and the residents seemed very happy.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Great writeup Rogue. I thought Zisook was amazing also. But he is retiring, he was supposed to leave after his academic year but they couldn't find anyone so he is staying on for another year.

Actually this leads to a more general question that I've had, in regards to how important a program director really is. Some places I interviewed at, the residents said they barely talked to them, and some places it seemed like the program director was a dad-away-from-home. On person said the main role of the program director is to make sure the program is meeting ACGME requirements. The reason I ask is, several of my programs are currently run by interims (UCI, USC), are brand new (Loma Linda) or hinted that they will be retiring within the next few years (UCSD, UCLA-Semel).

I trained at a program where the PD announced he was quitting maybe 3 months into my intern year. It made an already stressful year more stressful. Personally I think it's better to go some place where you like the PD and the PD is likely to stick around. If the PD is leaving, it would be nice to know what plans the program has for replacement. Of course there was no way for applicants my year to know that the PD was likely to leave although perhaps I should have been suspicious when he very charmingly did not answer my question about predicted changes for the program during my interview.

I remember having a somewhat negative encounter with the PD from UCLA-Semel so maybe that one is not so much of a loss. But hey, maybe he's a great guy. You can't tell much from an interview.

 

[withoutface123]

Just nitpicking, and correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the PD at USC was permanent and has been there for 7 years. It's the department chair that is currently interim, yes?

 

[splik]

Need help figuring out the bottom tier of my rank list. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

St. Louis University: Interview day went pretty well. Enjoyed all interactions with faculty. Residents said some of the faculty were world renown in Schizophrenia research. St. Louis itself didn't seem like a terrible place to live. Granted, I would prefer a place that didn't snow in the winter, but I could deal. My main issue was with the residents. They all just seemed kinda.....odd/awkward. Socializing at the lunch was pretty uncomfortable and unnatural. Majority were FMG, which I usually don't mind, but it seems like language would almost be a barrier to get over. Recent fellowship placements seemed pretty impressive though, so this makes me want to rank it over the new program on my list (Kaweah Delta) listed below.

Kaweah Delta (Visalia, CA): The city of Visalia is small, but it's close to the outdoorsy things my SO and I enjoy (hiking, snowboarding, etc). The program is very new (this would be the 3rd class ever), but the PD Dr. Hilty seems to have a solid handle on where he sees the program going (maybe I'm just sipping too much of the Jesus juice they're offering, idk). I didn't think the call schedule was terrible for PGY1, but after looking back on other call schedules and being ridiculed for having that opinion here on SDN, it seems like it is on the heavy side. To be fair, the residents were a great group and didn't seem "burnt" at all during the interview or dinner. Main thing that is holding me back from ranking it above SLU is how new the program is...Will coming from a new program limit my future fellowship opportunities? I'm pretty set on going into Child/Adolescent. And I'd really like to remain in California for that fellowship. Thoughts?

Thanks to everyone who has posted in these threads over the last few months! Hopefully, we all get our top 5-8 and don't have to worry about dropping this deep into our ranks!

with some notable exceptions fellowships in psychiatry are not competitive at all, not that many want to do fellowships as it adds an extra year or two without significantly affecting your salary etc. There are pretty terrible people even in most of what would be regarded as the "top programs" which is a bit more nebulous for fellowships anyway. The good thing is that it is much more of a buyer's market when it comes to fellowships and people don't really care about your board scores, med school performance etc. The most important thing by far and away will be you clinical performance during residency and having strong letters of recommendation testifying to this. additional things like publications, presentations, leadership, teaching or administrative experiences or awards (like the APA child psychiatry fellowship or the AACAP educational outreach award) are icing on the cake, but not typically necessary. I don't know anything much about Kaweah Delta, and it's a risk to go to a program that is still developing, however, my recommendation would be not to think it matters much the name of your general residency for child psychiatry residency training etc. What matters more is finding an environment where you think you will thrive most personally and professionally, and seems like a fit to you (either because of location and/or program characteristics). Probably where the "name" of the program matters is that letters from people who other people know are likely to carry more weight (if they know you well). Donald Hilty is pretty well known in academic psychiatry circles so I would think that a strong letter of recommendation from him would carry weight for fellowship applications, particularly if you wanted to stay in california.

main caveat of above is i don't know anything about this kaweah delta program and thus am speaking specifically to fellowship opportunities not being limited and not the quality of the training. as many programs do take their internal candidates (because it looks bad if they don't) the exception to the above is if you wanted to go to the same place for residency and fellowship.

 

[mass1]

Harvard South Shore. The residents here seemed well-rounded, very happy, and more cohesive than average. My impression is that the HSS program is less prestigious than UCSD but that its reputation is on the upswing. You get a full day of didactics each week and completely flexible use of your vacation days. Maybe I'm just a dork, but the opportunity to work at McLean for even a few months seems exciting to me. You get access to the whole Harvard system for research opportunities and electives. IMPART seems cool, as do the COOL leadership track and the RPTR track. They have a forensics rotation and the PD seemed interested in helping me find more opportunities to explore that interest. Some people find the PD off-putting, but I did not have that problem. I'm interested in LGBT mental health, and the Brockton VA seems to have a lot going on in that arena. I can't remember the specifics right now, but I had an extensive conversation with a current resident about it and there was at least a transgender clinic and special therapy groups for LGBT related issues. There's a lot of commuting at this program, and the snow in Boston is no joke. I'm kind of intimidated by the prospect of having to go to work over a longer distance through the snow, but I'm sure I could figure it out. If driving a lot bothers you, this probably wouldn't be a great place to go. In summary, it seems like there are opportunities to pursue all but the most specialized psych interests (no psycho-oncology that I'm aware of) and the program has a good balance of teaching and clinical learning. EDIT: just to clarify, I really liked the HSS PD. she seems like she really cares about the residents and puts a lot of effort into making the program as good as possible. I enjoyed her enthusiasm for the program's philosophy.

Current HSS resident here (PGY4). Great impression, which I found to be accurate.

Regarding McLean, We actually get to spend several months there doing inpatient psychiatry, geriatric psychiatry, emergency psychiatry, ECT/TMS, child and adolescent psychiatry. There is ample opportunity to do research with faculty there. In addition, during your fourth year, you can easily set up electives at McLean tailored to your specific interests. Several of our residents have also been a part of the editorial board for Harvard Review of Psychiatry, which is based at McLean.

Regarding psycho-oncology, some of our residents in the past have set this elective up at Brigham and Women's during their fourth year.

Overall, I have had a great experience here given our invested faculty, tailored mentorship, Harvard and VA resources, and the overall sense of community.