Pathology Job Search 2011-2012

[Pathguy11]

Pathology Job Search 2011-2012 and Other Job Related Topics​

I would liketo start a thread to report this year's Pathology job search. There is a lot of talk and speculation aboutthe current and future market. I for onewould like to hear ACTUAL experiences from Fellows or senior residents who arecurrently looking for or successfully landed a Pathology job to begin July2012 (or around that time). Please include as much information as you arecomfortable with including the following: Location, type of residencyand/or fellowship training, fellowship , board certification status, statemedical license obtained, estimated number of CV's send to employers, number ofjob interviews, number of job offers, employee vs. partnership tract, estimatedbenefits offered, and anything else that might be helpful. Also if you know of people currently lookingfor jobs, please have them come to this thread and post their experiences. Ideally, over the next several months we can get a small glimpse of how things are going in the job market this year.

I will start with my experience thus far as of 12/24/11


<OEstimated CV sent out: 15 </O< font>
<OTotal interviews completed: 4 separate interviews plus 2 second interviews</O< font>
Remaining interviews scheduled: None so far
Number ofjob offers: 1 (yes I did get an offer)
Practice settingoffered: Private community-based (3-5 Pathologists)
Partnershiptrack: Yes
Reason forjob opening: Retirement of partner in3-4 years
Location:Texas
Residency Training:Texas AP/CP, 20 total residents
Fellowships: Surgical Pathology & Cytopathology
Boardcertification: AP/CP certified
Statemedical license: Yes



<OI will post more if more if there is more to report...<O-Pathguy11</O< font></O< p>

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[mlw03]

Are you looking for diagnostic pathology jobs only, or shall us niche subspecialists (forensic, transfusion med, chem/microbio, etc) chime in too?

 

[2121115]

Good luck with this thread. I have tried to start threads like this in the past and got no real responses.

 

[Pathguy11]

Are you looking for diagnostic pathology jobs only, or shall us niche subspecialists (forensic, transfusion med, chem/microbio, etc) chime in too?

I think any examples are welcome. Just be specific if you are looking for one of these type positions. Who knows if there will be significant feedback either way. But I thought it was worth a shot. Everyone seems content to complain about the job market, so this post is at least a small, un-scientific attempt to find out how some of us are doing in our job searches. That is also why I strongly urge those of you who do participate in this forum to add updates for other Pathology trainees who you know that are also looking but would not themselves add information to this threat. I know at least 5 other fellows who are also looking for job in my area and will update as I hear the outcome of their searches.

-Pathguy11

 

[coroner]

Pathguy, would you also mind sharing if you received any slide quizzes at any of your interviews. This includes the casual "let's go over some cases" with one of the staff during your interview day. If so, how would you rate the difficulty: A. Bread & Butter - a "typical" day's cases seen in private practice B. Mix - ranging from bread and butter to challenging C. Zebras - only seen by uber-specialists at large academic referral centers/AFIP-type places or on ABP

I am soon to be in the job hunt as well and think this thread is a good idea to share experiences, much in the same way med students start a pathology residency program interview/match thread every year. Will keep posted.

 

[wholeheartedly]

Good thread. I'd be interested in seeing input from all career possibilities.






(and yes, I realize I'm quite a ways off from having this apply to me, but I still think it's valuable info if it gets some responses)

 

[mlw03]

OK, I'll add my stuff to try and get the thread going a bit more, because I do think it'll be interesting and valuable to folks:

Estimated CV sent out: 3
Total interviews completed: 2 (1 phone, 1 in person, and declined one interview)
Remaining interviews scheduled: 0
Number of job offers: 1 (pure forensic pathology position, no surg path component)
Practice setting offered: government
Partnership track: n/a
Reason for job opening: increased office workload
Location: western Canada
Residency Training: Ohio AP only, 16 total residents
Fellowship: forensic
Board certification: AP certified
State medical license: Yes

Pathology Job Search 2011-2012​

I would liketo start a threat to report this year's Pathology job search. There is a lot of talk and speculation aboutthe current and future market. I for onewould like to hear ACTUAL experiences from Fellows or senior residents who arecurrently looking for or successfully landed a Pathology job to begin July2012 (or around that time). Please include as much information as you arecomfortable with including the following: Location, type of residencyand/or fellowship training, fellowship , board certification status, statemedical license obtained, estimated number of CV's send to employers, number ofjob interviews, number of job offers, employee vs. partnership tract, estimatedbenefits offered, and anything else that might be helpful. Also if you know of people currently lookingfor jobs, please have them come to this thread and post their experiences. Ideally, over the next several months we can get a small glimpse of how things are going in the job market this year.

I will start with my experience thus far as of 12/24/11


<oEstimated CV sent out: 15 </o
<oTotal interviews completed: 4 separate interviews plus 2 second interviews</o
Remaining interviews scheduled: None so far
Number ofjob offers: 1 (yes I did get an offer)
Practice settingoffered: Private community-based (3-5 Pathologists)
Partnershiptrack: Yes
Reason forjob opening: Retirement of partner in3-4 years
Location:Texas
Residency Training:Texas AP/CP, 20 total residents
Fellowships: Surgical Pathology & Cytopathology
Boardcertification: AP/CP certified
Statemedical license: Yes


<oI will post more if more if there is more to report...<o-Pathguy11</o</o

 

[Pathguy11]

Pathguy, would you also mind sharing if you received any slide quizzes at any of your interviews. This includes the casual "let's go over some cases" with one of the staff during your interview day. If so, how would you rate the difficulty: A. Bread & Butter - a "typical" day's cases seen in private practice B. Mix - ranging from bread and butter to challenging C. Zebras - only seen by uber-specialists at large academic referral centers/AFIP-type places or on ABP

I am soon to be in the job hunt as well and think this thread is a good idea to share experiences, much in the same way med students start a pathology residency program interview/match thread every year. Will keep posted.

I did NOT have any "official" slide test on any of my interviews where they clearly had a set number of slides they wanted me to review. I DID have several, "let me know what you think about this case" informal slide test during interviews, some even saying "this is not a test but rather want your input"...rrrriiiiggghhhhtttt. They were still testing me but most of the case were not classic zebra, nor were they bread and butter cases. Most of they were potential pitfall cases that you might see in residency, fellowship, or practice. Sometimes there is not right answer but rather how you would approach the case and what your limits are. For example, I was show a very small (practically cytology quantity) lung biopsy from a patient with previous poorly diff adenocarcinoma in the opposite lung. The biopsy had only a few partially crushes population of cells that looked mildly atypical. For me there was not enough to call it lymphoid vs. small cell vs. reactive vs. other. My answer was that I could not call it anything specific on what I had but I would try to do a few immunos to help point me in the right direction, and I mentioned the one I would try...he agreed and said that is what he did.

Other examples of slides throughout my interviews (17 Pathologists total that I interviewed with thus far between 4 interviews) included:

1. GYN pap with ever so fun hyperchromatic crowded groups
2. "neck mass" that was basically reactive, inflammatory and granulomatous "junk". Main thing here is that I didn't jump to malignancy. I said I was more concerned about something infectious (recommend cultures) or other granulomatous process like sarcoidosis. The Pathologists seemed happy with this and added he also thought it could be a ruptured inclusion cyst because there were some area with mature squamous cells.
3. Shown a breast biopsy that they were showing around the group to decide on a single atypical focus of UDH, ADH, or DCIS. I said focal ADH and the senior pathologist agreed though two other said they would let it go as UDH.

So not to bore everyone with these example, but the main point is that you will likely be shown real, everyday cases that they see and find challenging. I felt like half of the battle was me demonstrating my boundries with a case (knowing my limitations), my ability to troubleshoot a case, and home confident I am about my diagnosis. Keep in mind I have only interviewed for private practive positions, so academics may be different.

Hope this helps...
Pathguy11

 

[coroner]

Thanks for sharing your experience, and this is helpful. Previous posts mentioned that it is tacky/not kosher for an employer to "go over slides" i.e. test you during an interview. The sentiment by some is that your creds should speak for itself and if they did hire you and you couldn't handle their cases, they can always give you the boot anyway. But, essentially it's within their right to make sure their investment (you) is worth the money they will be paying.

Just wanted to get an idea of what to expect and it seems like it's sort of in the middle somewhere. I'm sure I will come across as well and will share on this thread.

 

[sirenomelia]

I started a position this summer but this was my story:

Time of active job search: About 9 months
Estimated CV sent out: 20-25
-------Many places I never heard from.
-------The few rejects wanted experience +/- active license in hard state to get a license
Total interviews completed: 10-12? 6-7 in person, rest by phone
----private practice*: 5-6-- all by word of mouth except 1; none partnership track
----Ref lab: 1
----academic: 2
----research focused: 2
Number of job offers: Around 4-5**
Practice setting working: academic AP + CP
Partnership track: no/na
Reason for job opening: attrition
Residency Training: US AP/CP 4 residents/yr
Fellowship: two
Board certification: AP/CP/specialty eligible during jobsearch
State medical license: multiple

* Most private practice interviews asked me to look at slides in my specialty- it seemed they wanted help/opinion rather than to quiz/assesss me.

**Several interviews were followed by silence- neither an offer or rejection.
Sometimes only once i initiated follow-up interest the employer would offer a contract or state mutual interest. Some places i didnt like when i visited I didnt follow through with beyond a thank you note so I dont know If I could have had those jobs. Only 2? interviews were followed with an actual 'No' from their side. Overall most solid 'offers' were not ideal jobs I wanted.

 

[cjw0918]

Started a job July 2011 so this was for last year

Number of CVs sent out: 15, geographically restricted to one state
Number of interviews: 5, after a LOT of networking (4 private, 1 academic)
Number of job offers: 2 (1 private partnership track, 1 academic)
Boards: only AP/CP and subspec board eligible at the time of interviews (all done now)
Residency: US AP/CP at mid-tier institution
Fellowships: 2 (neither highly competitive, 1 at top-tier institution)
Job accepted: academic, offer came in May/June

The best private job I interviewed for hired no one. Decided not to replace a retiring partner.
Another private job hired a guy with 20 years of experience.
The private job I turned down due to intolerable work hours and dislike of one of the senior partners went to a surg path fellow from Wash U.
Another private job went to a fellow who the main group decision-maker just took a strong liking to (MANY people interviewed for this job, it was an ideal one).

My current academic job is far from perfect, but it's ok. I really enjoy my colleagues, and I'm continuing to see great cases and learn. It likely will not be my forever job, but it works for now. I would say for a first job, don't aim for perfect, aim for tolerable and a supportive atmosphere where you can continue to learn. Most people don't stay in their first jobs that long anyway.

 

[1 Path]

I actually joined a practice in July 2010 but I believe the market is similar currently. I know I would have appreciated a thread like this when I was a resident/fellow so I will add my ?unusual experience.

Estimated CV sent out: 1 (by request from hiring practice)
Total interviews completed: 1
Remaining interviews scheduled: N/A
Number of job offers: 1 (Informal offer day of interview, formal contract a few days later)
Practice setting offered: Private community-based (3-5 Pathologists)
Partnership track: Yes
Reason for job opening: Retirement of partner
Location: Southwest USA, large metro area
Residency Training: Southwest USA, AP/CP, large residency program
Fellowships: 1 (semi-competitive, not Derm)
Board certification: None at time of job offer, currently AP/CP/Subspecialty
State medical license: Yes

My experience was unusual-I received a 'cold call' from a local practice in December asking if I was interested in applying for a position to start the following July. I never formally initiated a job hunt and already had additional fellowship training scheduled for the following year. One of the partners was a fairly recent graduate of my residency program, I had the fellowship the practice needed, and they thought I was a good fit.

I know someone will ask-I was a solid but not superstar resident. I was easy to work with though, got along with essentially everyone from lab techs to program director, and performed competently and amicably on all rotations regardless of my interest.

 

[Tissue issue]

Started a job July 2011 so this was for last year

Number of CVs sent out: 15, geographically restricted to one state
Number of interviews: 5, after a LOT of networking (4 private, 1 academic)
Number of job offers: 2 (1 private partnership track, 1 academic)
Boards: only AP/CP and subspec board eligible at the time of interviews (all done now)
Residency: US AP/CP at mid-tier institution
Fellowships: 2 (neither highly competitive, 1 at top-tier institution)
Job accepted: academic, offer came in May/June

The best private job I interviewed for hired no one. Decided not to replace a retiring partner.
Another private job hired a guy with 20 years of experience.
The private job I turned down due to intolerable work hours and dislike of one of the senior partners went to a surg path fellow from Wash U.
Another private job went to a fellow who the main group decision-maker just took a strong liking to (MANY people interviewed for this job, it was an ideal one).

My current academic job is far from perfect, but it's ok. I really enjoy my colleagues, and I'm continuing to see great cases and learn. It likely will not be my forever job, but it works for now. I would say for a first job, don't aim for perfect, aim for tolerable and a supportive atmosphere where you can continue to learn. Most people don't stay in their first jobs that long anyway.

cjw0918- I'm about 15 years out of training and I'm wondering- what are people right out of training considering to be the ideal private job these days? For whatever it's worth, it used to be an independent (not hospital employed) group which intended to make you a full partner (equal profit sharing) in 3 years or less. I've heard that it is harder and harder to find such a group.

 

[GlassPusherJack]

do you guys mind sharing what you did fellowships in and what your case load per day will be like (quantity and surg v cyto)? for those in academics, is any protected time promised or in contract? is there a research fund that junior faculty can dip into and ancillary staff to help with things like writing IRBs?

 

[sirenomelia]

1Path- glad for you it went so smooth but thats just ass lucky and isnt at all what a senior resident/fellow should anticipate. As someone else mentioned some practices changed their mind and didnt hire anyone because some old guy didnt retire as he planned.

My spec- hematology- seemed like a + selling point to priv prac's; strangely they didnt care about heme boards as much as completing the fellowship and most were desiring 2-3 yrs experience. Do many people wait that long to get their boards done?

Research is "encouraged" but not required production nor is there protected time and clinical work and teaching and administ crap consumes 100% time as it is. I dont have grants or allocation but i have a stipend that can be used for reagents, pub/meeting expenses, etc.

Volume- first 6 months extrapolated would come out to about 5200/ yr not counting flows, Lepis or Hgb's, etc

 

[Pathguy11]

cjw0918- I'm about 15 years out of training and I'm wondering- what are people right out of training considering to be the ideal private job these days? For whatever it's worth, it used to be an independent (not hospital employed) group which intended to make you a full partner (equal profit sharing) in 3 years or less. I've heard that it is harder and harder to find such a group.

For me the the ideal private practice setting right out of training would have the following (no specific order):

1. At least "perceived" stability (history of maintaining contracts & good standing with clincians, hospital admin, etc)..of course things happen and contracts can be lost but in general a good track record is helpful

2. Solid case load (like goldie locks would want..not too much or too little but just right). I want to work hard but also play hard during my life. I am not afraid of occasional long hours but I also do NOT want to be married to my job. Somewhere inbetween would be preferred.

3. True Partnership tract- I don't expect to be given anything but I do want to opportunity to earn what I have been training for all my academic life. For me eventually being a contributing leader & partner in my group is important. I want to responsibility of overseeing a lab, making management decision, and having an equal say in the future of the group. Of course the thought of "partnership benefits" is also attractive.

4. Business & Managment Savvy Partners- I was looking for a group that is happy to "groom" me for a partnership position. There is a lot I will need to learn about the business and management side of a practice that I will likely often turn to my future partners for input. I was up front in all my interviews about my career goals and that I was looking for a group that would willingly mentor me from day 1, especially with respect to managing a practice.

5. Appropriate benefits

Those are probably the top few factors I looked for.

Pathguy11

 

[Pathguy11]

do you guys mind sharing what you did fellowships in and what your case load per day will be like (quantity and surg v cyto)? for those in academics, is any protected time promised or in contract? is there a research fund that junior faculty can dip into and ancillary staff to help with things like writing IRBs?

Fellowship: Surgical Pathology and Cytopathology
Volume: It comes out to about 3500-4000 total accessions per Pathologist, with a general mix of cases. Biopsies make up at least 50% of the cases.

 

[cjw0918]

cjw0918- I'm about 15 years out of training and I'm wondering- what are people right out of training considering to be the ideal private job these days? For whatever it's worth, it used to be an independent (not hospital employed) group which intended to make you a full partner (equal profit sharing) in 3 years or less. I've heard that it is harder and harder to find such a group.

Tissue, I guess I should qualify that "ideal" comment. It was ideal in terms of great work hours (40 hrs/week), people, efficiency, stability, generous benefits/compensation, and involving lots of surg path specimens from a subspecialty I like. No call and no autopsies. With the heavy subspec focus, it may not have been someone else's ideal.

A couple of private places looking for people were having retention problems due to miserably long working hours. Seems some groups would rather die then hire enough people so that everyone can have a life and there is adequate vacation coverage. They go through a revolving door of burning out a pathologist every 3 years or so.

The groups which you describe as ideal are VERY difficult to get into because NO ONE leaves such nice jobs, especially if they have humane working hours.

 

[GlassPusherJack]

so you are at an academic job (which means less money) that makes you do CP and sign out more cases than the dude who posted below you in private practice and not getting any time or money for research?? kinda would make me wonder why anyone would go into academics if you: a) do not have time or much support to do your academic activities, and b) are still getting to enjoy all the great fun of CP (sarcasm).. working at a POD sounds more fair than this to be quite honest.

1Path- glad for you it went so smooth but thats just ass lucky and isnt at all what a senior resident/fellow should anticipate. As someone else mentioned some practices changed their mind and didnt hire anyone because some old guy didnt retire as he planned.

My spec- hematology- seemed like a + selling point to priv prac's; strangely they didnt care about heme boards as much as completing the fellowship and most were desiring 2-3 yrs experience. Do many people wait that long to get their boards done?

Research is "encouraged" but not required production nor is there protected time and clinical work and teaching and administ crap consumes 100% time as it is. I dont have grants or allocation but i have a stipend that can be used for reagents, pub/meeting expenses, etc.

Volume- first 6 months extrapolated would come out to about 5200/ yr not counting flows, Lepis or Hgb's, etc

 

[rollwithit]

As long as folks are being generic, might as well throw in the salary and benefits goodies...

 

[1 Path]

1Path- glad for you it went so smooth but thats just ass lucky and isnt at all what a senior resident/fellow should anticipate.

Agree, just relating my experience. I was the right candidate in the right place at the right time. I'm sure there were others who could have filled the same spot. There are posts in other threads about all of the 'right' things to do-networking, sending CV's, etc-and if you want a desirable job you should absolutely do all of that starting 1 year prior to completion of training. But no matter what you do there is a component of luck involved. Getting a job is not like applying to college/medical school/residency where every position is nationally advertised and there are objective criteria such as test scores and grades to make it all 'fair'.

 

[sirenomelia]

so you are at an academic job (which means less money) that makes you do CP and sign out more cases than the dude who posted below you in private practice and not getting any time or money for research?? kinda would make me wonder why anyone would go into academics if you: a) do not have time or much support to do your academic activities, and b) are still getting to enjoy all the great fun of CP (sarcasm).. working at a POD sounds more fair than this to be quite honest.

Is there an academic setting where new faculty dont work hard? 3500 cases is 75 cases a week. thats nothing let alone as 1/2 biopsies. I want to be busy doing interesting complex material. The other stuff will come along. I rarely go over 50 hours/week and do a few hours one saturday out of seven. Im hardly overworked.

 

[deleted314957]

that's what i joind about 25 years ago but they are becoming a vanishing breed.

 

[pathstudent]

that's what i joind about 25 years ago but they are becoming a vanishing breed.

Do you think that such practices are no longer viable?

What are the causes for their march towards extinction?

 

[deleted314957]

do you think that such practices are no longer viable?

What are the causes for their march towards extinction?

they are becoming much less viable, particularly in desirable places due to major hospital consolidations and groups selling.
When we sold our practice we had about 15 hospital contracts. It is good we sold when we did because most of those hospitals either no longer exist or were gobbled up by bigger institutions and we would have been out. One of the reasons we sold when we did was because we saw it coming and our "purchaser" kinda got the shaft because our business did not remain as they hoped. We would have seen our income go down to the "employee" level we were hired at by the acquirer if we had not sold.

If there is a future for the "classic" pp model i think it will persist the longest in rural america, eg.-dakotas, southern illinois,rural mid west, etc.

 

[Pathguy11]

...

 

[PathRes123]

Here is mine:

Number of CVs sent out: about 20, all over, in response to ads
Number of interviews: 2 in last 3 weeks (not counting many phone interviews, which I am waiting to hear from, or did not follow through)
Remaining interviews scheduled: 3, in the next few weeks
Number of job offers: none yet (will hear from places I interviewed sometime next month)
Boards: AP/CP
Residency: AP/CP (large academic place)
Fellowships: 2

I think I did not pay a lot of attention to the networking part of things.

Since I started applying, I am getting brisk interest and interviews, and am fairly certain I will land a reasonable job. My issue is that my geographic preference is in an area that I have no professional connections to and no interviews from : (

Hence, the dilemma if I should accept something that is offered to me, or hold out for positions in my area of geographic preference.

Has anybody here had any luck with "cold e-mailing" hospitals or groups about positions? Similarly, I am wondering if traveling to a ValueMD career fair in my area of interest will be of any help.

 

[Pathguy11]

Has anybody here had any luck with "cold e-mailing" hospitals or groups about positions? Similarly, I am wondering if traveling to a ValueMD career fair in my area of interest will be of any help.

Actually the "cold-call" or "cold-email" is the ONLY way I applied for jobs this year because of my geographic limitations to one city, and there were no jobs being advertised at the time. I started emailing CV's and calling practices in my area as early as May of 2011. I used my fellowship as an opportunity also when we had a consult case from a local Path group, and I would volunteer to call the group back and at the end of the conversation I would discuss my situation and job search. I asked my faculty about the groups in the area and who I should contact. I also did a lot of "google time" trying to find other hospitals in the area and the groups that covered them. There were several hospitals that I made "blind" calls to in order to find out what Pathology group covered them. So I actually did not apply to a single advertised position, not to say that the position was not advertised after I contacted the group.

In the end, my current job offer is with a group that I sent a CV to back in August and heard nothing back from until later October. This is not completely a random occurence though, as one of my current faculty knows a partner of the group. No doubt this helped my CV standout. As far as I can tell, the position was never offically advertised, nor did they interview other applicants.

As far as the other group that I did a second full day of interviews to meet "the rest of the partners" and still waiting to hear back from by early January, I sent them my CV back in July. I think I received a generic reponse at the time and even again in September when I followed up that said "we have no positions at this time but will keep your CV on file". Then in early November a position became available and they did advertise for it. I was told they received a suprisingly high number of CVs in response to the ad and they planned on interviewing only about 5 people initially. Here is the kicker though, out of all those CVs they no doubtedly received from all over the country, they ended up interviewing exclusively FELLOWS from this area. When I inquired about this then said a lot of it had to do with good candidates from the area who already had a state medical license. I guess my point is that you probably should seek out job opportunities before they are advertised for to maximize your chances.

Pathguy11

 

[mlw03]

Has anybody here had any luck with "cold e-mailing" hospitals or groups about positions? Similarly, I am wondering if traveling to a ValueMD career fair in my area of interest will be of any help.

glad to see this thread is taking off a bit. interesting stuff. i found my position via cold-emailing. from following the job market a bit in my field (yea for google alerts), i knew this office would have openings, and just contacted someone who i found via some intense googling stating my situation and my interest in a position if they were looking for someone in my timeframe (ie, can't start until finishing fellowship). because the expectations when one does this are so low, i see little downside to cold-calling.

 

[cjw0918]

Actually the "cold-call" or "cold-email" is the ONLY way I applied for jobs this year because of my geographic limitations to one city, and there were no jobs being advertised at the time. I started emailing CV's and calling practices in my area as early as May of 2011. I used my fellowship as an opportunity also when we had a consult case from a local Path group, and I would volunteer to call the group back and at the end of the conversation I would discuss my situation and job search. I asked my faculty about the groups in the area and who I should contact. I also did a lot of "google time" trying to find other hospitals in the area and the groups that covered them. There were several hospitals that I made "blind" calls to in order to find out what Pathology group covered them. So I actually did not apply to a single advertised position, not to say that the position was not advertised after I contacted the group.

In the end, my current job offer is with a group that I sent a CV to back in August and heard nothing back from until later October. This is not completely a random occurence though, as one of my current faculty knows a partner of the group. No doubt this helped my CV standout. As far as I can tell, the position was never offically advertised, nor did they interview other applicants.

As far as the other group that I did a second full day of interviews to meet "the rest of the partners" and still waiting to hear back from by early January, I sent them my CV back in July. I think I received a generic reponse at the time and even again in September when I followed up that said "we have no positions at this time but will keep your CV on file". Then in early November a position became available and they did advertise for it. I was told they received a suprisingly high number of CVs in response to the ad and they planned on interviewing only about 5 people initially. Here is the kicker though, out of all those CVs they no doubtedly received from all over the country, they ended up interviewing exclusively FELLOWS from this area. When I inquired about this then said a lot of it had to do with good candidates from the area who already had a state medical license. I guess my point is that you probably should seek out job opportunities before they are advertised for to maximize your chances.

Pathguy11

I second this strategy. This is how I ended up with more interviews than advertised positions at the time. Also, when you cold call someone, if they say they don't have anything ask 1) Can I have your email address to send you my CV for your file in case anything should become available? and 2) Do you know of anyone else in the area I could check with regarding a potential position?

Now you have an email to begin building a network. Keep these addresses even after you've landed a job. Pathologists know other pathologists in town and are generally happy to refer you to someone else if they can't help you.

PathRes, ask EVERYONE at your academic center if they know someone in practice even close to your geographic area of interest. See if they can call or email this person and ask them if they know anyone in your area of interest. Slowly you will creep into where you want to be by networking one by one. It can be awkward, but you have to get over that. It works. Good luck, but it sounds like you are doing great.

 

[KluverB]

I second this strategy. This is how I ended up with more interviews than advertised positions at the time. Also, when you cold call someone, if they say they don't have anything ask 1) Can I have your email address to send you my CV for your file in case anything should become available? and 2) Do you know of anyone else in the area I could check with regarding a potential position?...

^^^ This.

From time to time I still get contacted whether I'm looking for a position from places I had cold-emailed my CV to months ago. As some have already mentioned, sometimes (or rather always), it's all about timing. This is how I landed my position (almost a year after having cold-e-mailed someone I stumbled upon via the googlez, in one of my geographically preferred locations, when I was just feeling out the lay of the land, and wasn't yet really looking for a position).

 

[PathRes123]

Thanks pathguy11, mlw, cjw and KluverB! Very helpful suggestions.

Pathguy11, seems to me you were relatively close to your city of interest. I am 3000 miles away, and not many people I know have connections there. I am still trying, though. And we don't get m/any consults from that area - that is something I would have tried.

I prefer cold-emailing, as the few times I tried cold-calling were a little awkward (a couple of layers before I got to a pathologist, and a pathologist who was not in a frame of mind to discuss job openings he did not have). The hard part seems to be getting the relevant e-mails, but once you do - does anyone here see an advantage to a call versus a nicely put e-mail with CV?

Asking again - has anybody found ValueMD career fairs useful in contacting smaller hospitals in your area of interest?

Since applying, I have realized I am fairly competitive for a job. That is why my initial anxiety of not landing any job has now morphed into not finding one where I want it! Like all of you say, it seems to be a problem of connecting to the right people. Since location is important to me, I am quite flexible regarding practice type, compensation etc, but without that initial connection, none of that helps.

 

[cjw0918]

I like cold-calling over emailing. It's too easy to ignore an email. It can be hard to get a pathologist on the phone especially if the secretary is a good screener. It helps if you can say, "Dr. X (someone the pathologist knows) told me to contact him/her regarding a possible job opportunity." That way it doesn't sound totally random. I had a couple pathologists talk to me just because they wanted to know how old Dr. X was doing and where is he now?? It's a good intro.

I did not find career fairs helpful because the people there are generally recruiting for specialties other than path, and have no idea what path is or if someone is needed in the dept.

 

[Path or bust]

I like cold-calling over emailing. It's too easy to ignore an email. It can be hard to get a pathologist on the phone especially if the secretary is a good screener. It helps if you can say, "Dr. X (someone the pathologist knows) told me to contact him/her regarding a possible job opportunity." That way it doesn't sound totally random. I had a couple pathologists talk to me just because they wanted to know how old Dr. X was doing and where is he now?? It's a good intro.

I did not find career fairs helpful because the people there are generally recruiting for specialties other than path, and have no idea what path is or if someone is needed in the dept.

I think cold-calling worked best in my situation. I just concluded a second round of interviews with a group who I had sent my CV and talked to. They did not advertise and will have a pathologist retire in 1 year and 2 others in a few more years will also be retiring. Everybody in the group is at least 25-30 years older than me and were fairly warm and inviting.

I am from this area originally but did residency 1500 miles away. Nevertheless, I have to agree with the other posters the best deals are those that are not advertised.

The group is made up of 6 pathologists and they have contracts for 5 hospitals in the area. The position is partnership track with guaranteed income of 225K. Depending on what we take in, it could be more. The group has had a long presence here and is familiar with the administration. Several serve in hospital executive committees.

I do have a fellowship secured for next year but will be giving that up as they say it wouldn't be as useful in their practice. They didn't push me to do this in fact they said it was a very personal decision and that I could take time to think about it.

Number of CVs sent out: several, some I never heard back from.
Number of interviews: 2
Remaining interviews scheduled: none
Number of job offers: 1
Boards: PGY4- AP/CP (later this year)
Residency: AP/CP (large academic place)
Fellowships: 0

 

[Entgegen]

I think cold-calling worked best in my situation. I just concluded a second round of interviews with a group who I had sent my CV and talked to. They did not advertise and will have a pathologist retire in 1 year and 2 others in a few more years will also be retiring. Everybody in the group is at least 25-30 years older than me and were fairly warm and inviting.

I am from this area originally but did residency 1500 miles away. Nevertheless, I have to agree with the other posters the best deals are those that are not advertised.

The group is made up of 6 pathologists and they have contracts for 5 hospitals in the area. The position is partnership track with guaranteed income of 225K. Depending on what we take in, it could be more. The group has had a long presence here and is familiar with the administration. Several serve in hospital executive committees.

I do have a fellowship secured for next year but will be giving that up as they say it wouldn't be as useful in their practice. They didn't push me to do this in fact they said it was a very personal decision and that I could take time to think about it.

Number of CVs sent out: several, some I never heard back from.
Number of interviews: 2
Remaining interviews scheduled: none
Number of job offers: 1
Boards: PGY4- AP/CP (later this year)
Residency: AP/CP (large academic place)
Fellowships: 0

Certainly an improvement over one of your previous posts. Glad to hear things are working out for you!

 

[Path or bust]

Certainly an improvement over one of your previous posts. Glad to hear things are working out for you!

I stick to what I said, had I known then what I know now I probably would have reconsidered my career path. Even though I enjoy what I do and I am proud of it, I feel I could fit in other medical specialties just as much. I consider myself lucky in this horrible job market, there is nothing special about me, I'm just an average resident.

 

[mlw03]

Are we reading this right, that you've secured a job straight out of residency? No fellowships? I thought that was virtually unheard of nowadays. If so, congrats.

I think cold-calling worked best in my situation. I just concluded a second round of interviews with a group who I had sent my CV and talked to. They did not advertise and will have a pathologist retire in 1 year and 2 others in a few more years will also be retiring. Everybody in the group is at least 25-30 years older than me and were fairly warm and inviting.

I am from this area originally but did residency 1500 miles away. Nevertheless, I have to agree with the other posters the best deals are those that are not advertised.

The group is made up of 6 pathologists and they have contracts for 5 hospitals in the area. The position is partnership track with guaranteed income of 225K. Depending on what we take in, it could be more. The group has had a long presence here and is familiar with the administration. Several serve in hospital executive committees.

I do have a fellowship secured for next year but will be giving that up as they say it wouldn't be as useful in their practice. They didn't push me to do this in fact they said it was a very personal decision and that I could take time to think about it.

Number of CVs sent out: several, some I never heard back from.
Number of interviews: 2
Remaining interviews scheduled: none
Number of job offers: 1
Boards: PGY4- AP/CP (later this year)
Residency: AP/CP (large academic place)
Fellowships: 0

 

[Tissue issue]

I stick to what I said, had I known then what I know now I probably would have reconsidered my career path. Even though I enjoy what I do and I am proud of it, I feel I could fit in other medical specialties just as much. I consider myself lucky in this horrible job market, there is nothing special about me, I'm just an average resident.

There is something special about you- you're willing to be honest. I'd want to hire you too.

 

[yaah]

For me the the ideal private practice setting right out of training would have the following (no specific order):

1. At least "perceived" stability (history of maintaining contracts & good standing with clincians, hospital admin, etc)..of course things happen and contracts can be lost but in general a good track record is helpful

2. Solid case load (like goldie locks would want..not too much or too little but just right). I want to work hard but also play hard during my life. I am not afraid of occasional long hours but I also do NOT want to be married to my job. Somewhere inbetween would be preferred.

3. True Partnership tract- I don't expect to be given anything but I do want to opportunity to earn what I have been training for all my academic life. For me eventually being a contributing leader & partner in my group is important. I want to responsibility of overseeing a lab, making management decision, and having an equal say in the future of the group. Of course the thought of "partnership benefits" is also attractive.

4. Business & Managment Savvy Partners- I was looking for a group that is happy to "groom" me for a partnership position. There is a lot I will need to learn about the business and management side of a practice that I will likely often turn to my future partners for input. I was up front in all my interviews about my career goals and that I was looking for a group that would willingly mentor me from day 1, especially with respect to managing a practice.

5. Appropriate benefits

Those are probably the top few factors I looked for.

Pathguy11

Those are excellent criteria. Another important factor that goes into #1 is stability of the pathology group - how often do people leave? Are there only two real partners and everyone else comes and goes? Do people misterously leave prior to being elevated to partner? Stability of the hospital and physicians you work with are also important.

#4 is very important, but also hard to get in partnership with ethical and equitable partners. A lot of "business savvy' individuals are horrible people who will do anything to save a buck, and treatment of pathologist underlings is an important part of this.

 

[LADoc00]

Hmmm. My 2 cents: I get really upset when people cold call me. I feel guilty for having to rush them off the phone. I feel guilty for telling them I dont have anything for them. Previously I had gone so far as to actually get some cold callers with really good credentials interviews/job offers with other groups, but that has backfired on me (they were a really bad fit) so I dont even do that anymore.

I have my secretary on perma-screen for cold callers for the last year or so.

 

[lipomas]

Hmmm. My 2 cents: I get really upset when people cold call me. I feel guilty for having to rush them off the phone. I feel guilty for telling them I dont have anything for them. Previously I had gone so far as to actually get some cold callers with really good credentials interviews/job offers with other groups, but that has backfired on me (they were a really bad fit) so I dont even do that anymore.

I have my secretary on perma-screen for cold callers for the last year or so.

Yeah but are you under age 50? Many of the old timers hate email and think it's impersonal and unprofessional. I agree with you, I would rather get an email. If we truly have a need or potential need we can follow up in any number of ways. Or if I know of one. But I really hate talking on the phone.

But I do agree that cold calling is beneficial for the applicant, and extremely unlikely to hurt your chances. It can only help. Only the true ******* out there would reject a candidate BECAUSE he/she cold called them on a coincidentally busy day. And of course, why would you want to work with that ******* anyway?

By the way, if you all out there are cold emailing or cold calling, get your **** together before you do so. Check your email and CV to make sure it doesn't look like a third grader sent it. And have some things to say about yourself other then "ummmm"

 

[McSorely]

I sent out 30+ emails (ads on path outlines and career MD) in my fourth year and got no replies. I ended up with two interviews (both word of mouth) and both ultimately wanted a fellowship trained board certified candidate. I ended up doing a fellowship at the last minute and started the application process over in August of my fellowship year, after I was board certified. I then sent out 20+ emails targeted at jobs advertising for my specialty and those including general surgpath using the same websites. 1 reply. Ultimately landed the job (contract signed by October) with a big private group (25+ pathologists) on a partnership track with good benefits, fair salary, and vacation. Overall lots of volume in my specialty and the opportunity to do some surgpath. If you want more info regarding the interview process or have other general questions send me a message. Another very important point is that I'm willing to go almost anywhere, bar Siberia.

 

[inpursuit]

I am halfway through my fellowship year and have applied to a few jobs based on postings on websites. Haven't had much luck in terms of "knowing someone who knows someone who has an opening". Sent in my CV to about 5 places (a mix of academia and private practice). Heard back from a couple of places. Have a couple of interviews next month.
What questions are okay to ask on a first interview for an academic position? Workload, time spent on clinical service, time and money for research activities, reporting structure in department: I guess are okay to talk about.
How about vacation, benefits, salary, promotion? Are these things people talk about during interview?
Do they ask the applicant what kind of expectations one has?
Can one ask about people who have left the department and why?
Can anyone with prior experience with job interviews tell me what they think they should have asked or made sure prior to signing the contract?
What kind of salary range should one expect to know they are leveling with you? Do people get a signing bonus, relocation benefits? Do bigger name places pay you less?
Sorry for all the questions.
But these are hard and confusing times.

 

[Tissue issue]

I am halfway through my fellowship year and have applied to a few jobs based on postings on websites. Haven't had much luck in terms of "knowing someone who knows someone who has an opening". Sent in my CV to about 5 places (a mix of academia and private practice). Heard back from a couple of places. Have a couple of interviews next month.
What questions are okay to ask on a first interview for an academic position? Workload, time spent on clinical service, time and money for research activities, reporting structure in department: I guess are okay to talk about.
How about vacation, benefits, salary, promotion? Are these things people talk about during interview?
Do they ask the applicant what kind of expectations one has?
Can one ask about people who have left the department and why?
Can anyone with prior experience with job interviews tell me what they think they should have asked or made sure prior to signing the contract?
What kind of salary range should one expect to know they are leveling with you? Do people get a signing bonus, relocation benefits? Do bigger name places pay you less?
Sorry for all the questions.
But these are hard and confusing times.

Inpursuit- These are good questions. I'm sure others will chime in, but I have more global advice. First, you need to get the job. Think about what you would be looking for if you were doing the hiring. All that vacation, salary, etc. is moot without an offer. The questions about who left and why are very important, but in my personal opinion, it's better to find that out quietly yourself. By pursuing "degrees of separation' - path usually has less than 5- you'll probably get a more accurate story this way anyway.

 

[inpursuit]

You are absolutely right Tissue issue and I totally agree. But my question is more in the lines of what one should ask when they ask you "do you have any questions". Definitely don't want to get ahead of myself here

 

[BU Pathology]

I am halfway through my fellowship year and have applied to a few jobs based on postings on websites. Haven't had much luck in terms of "knowing someone who knows someone who has an opening". Sent in my CV to about 5 places (a mix of academia and private practice). Heard back from a couple of places. Have a couple of interviews next month.
What questions are okay to ask on a first interview for an academic position? Workload, time spent on clinical service, time and money for research activities, reporting structure in department: I guess are okay to talk about.
How about vacation, benefits, salary, promotion? Are these things people talk about during interview?
Do they ask the applicant what kind of expectations one has?
Can one ask about people who have left the department and why?
Can anyone with prior experience with job interviews tell me what they think they should have asked or made sure prior to signing the contract?
What kind of salary range should one expect to know they are leveling with you? Do people get a signing bonus, relocation benefits? Do bigger name places pay you less?
Sorry for all the questions.
But these are hard and confusing times.

It would be appropriate to ask what expectations the group has for a new person. Do they want the person to develop subspecialty expertise or be a general surgical pathologist, etc.?
The group may be considering new initiatives, such as expanding outreach labs or bringing new tests in house. Ask about those, since this gives you an opportunity to showcase how your training and interests will help the group achieve these goals.
Ask where they send consultations and send out labs. This helps to establish your network if you know those consultants or labs, and can also serve to bolster your credentials if you have worked with one of those consultants.
If you have an interest, see if the group engages in any teaching with any local educational institution. Pathologists sometimes provide lectures to other organizations, such as courses at a community college. Be careful to not oversell how much time you would spend on this, but it may match your interests with those of the group.
Ask how active they are in the local medical society. If they are active ask how you can participate, if they are not active ask why.

It is always good to have a list of questions, not just to ask questions but to understand how you and the group would fit together.

Daniel Remick, M.D.
Chair and Professor of Pathology and Laboratory Medicine
Boston University School of Medicine, Boston Medical Center

 

[LADoc00]

Yeah but are you under age 50? Many of the old timers hate email and think it's impersonal and unprofessional. I agree with you, I would rather get an email. If we truly have a need or potential need we can follow up in any number of ways. Or if I know of one. But I really hate talking on the phone.

But I do agree that cold calling is beneficial for the applicant, and extremely unlikely to hurt your chances. It can only help. Only the true ******* out there would reject a candidate BECAUSE he/she cold called them on a coincidentally busy day. And of course, why would you want to work with that ******* anyway?

By the way, if you all out there are cold emailing or cold calling, get your **** together before you do so. Check your email and CV to make sure it doesn't look like a third grader sent it. And have some things to say about yourself other then "ummmm"

I think by far the best way to get job offers is make friends. I had an attending once tell me "Go to meetings, chat up practice owners, have some drinks with them, have dinner with with them and basically make your friends. Then ask their help for jobs."

I agree there are tons of really odd crusty 60-70 something pathologists you would never want to be friends with, but there are also alot of 30-40s practicing pathologists you can befriend.

Regardless if you are one of the multitude of Asperger-Pathologists that exist out there, there is really is no good way of landing of real world job...And that is what many of the cold callers come across as to me.

I can help mentor a recent trainee with Pathology with what they lack in technical skills, but as of now I cant cure Social Autism.

 

[inpursuit]

It would be appropriate to ask what expectations the group has for a new person. Do they want the person to develop subspecialty expertise or be a general surgical pathologist, etc.?
The group may be considering new initiatives, such as expanding outreach labs or bringing new tests in house. Ask about those, since this gives you an opportunity to showcase how your training and interests will help the group achieve these goals.
Ask where they send consultations and send out labs. This helps to establish your network if you know those consultants or labs, and can also serve to bolster your credentials if you have worked with one of those consultants.
If you have an interest, see if the group engages in any teaching with any local educational institution. Pathologists sometimes provide lectures to other organizations, such as courses at a community college. Be careful to not oversell how much time you would spend on this, but it may match your interests with those of the group.
Ask how active they are in the local medical society. If they are active ask how you can participate, if they are not active ask why.

It is always good to have a list of questions, not just to ask questions but to understand how you and the group would fit together.

Daniel Remick, M.D.
Chair and Professor of Pathology and Laboratory Medicine
Boston University School of Medicine, Boston Medical Center

Thanks Dr. Remick. Your advice is always appreciated.

 

[KluverB]

You are absolutely right Tissue issue and I totally agree. But my question is more in the lines of what one should ask when they ask you "do you have any questions". Definitely don't want to get ahead of myself here

Beyond what has already been mentioned above, ask about non-work related stuff... Where do people who work there live? What's the housing market like? If you have kids... what are the best neighbourhoods for shools? Daycare? Outdoor activities? Etc etc etc.

In short, try to appear human and go beyond asking only about work. I'd certainly keep all the benefits, salary, etc. stuff either for later, ie. negotiations over the contract, a second look, etc. Although, you'll find that most dept heads will volunteer that info up-front anyway. Usually, it's fairly boiler-plate and there is not much you can negotiate for, especially at larger places. At smaller, more "desperate" locations, you may be able to push for more.

Ask if you'll be getting a new scope, or a hand-me-down. That's one thing you may want/need to negotiate up front for (although, again not at the first interview), if you don't what to be stuck with a "resident" scope. Ask about office space. Ask whether you will be getting/can get new furniture, carpet, computer, etc. Funds for CME, books, conferences, etc. Ask about administrative support. Will you be dictating or typing your own reports? If the former, how is the transcription service? If the latter, is anyone using voice recognition? Is it working for them? What are the expected TATs? Do most people meet them? What's the workload like? How is it divided up? Who decides? ie. Is it first-come-first-serve? Do senior faculty get first dibs? Or, is there a set schedule and the PAs just assign the case to the appropriate queue? Are there PAs? How many? How much of the grossing to they do? How competent are they? How complicated are the cases that they gross? What do the residents gross? What's the expectation for supervision of residents/PAs/etc.? Do residents have protected preview time? At-scope sign-out time? What's the call rota like? What types of other included benefits are there? Healthacre/ Retirement/ Investments/ Insurance plans? Are people generally happy with these or do they seek outside vendors?

There. That should fill up whatever time you may have on the interview trail.

 

[anencephalic]

Ask if you'll be getting a new scope, or a hand-me-down. That's one thing you may want/need to negotiate up front for (although, again not at the first interview), if you don't what to be stuck with a "resident" scope. Ask about office space. Ask whether you will be getting/can get new furniture, carpet, computer, etc. Funds for CME, books, conferences, etc. Ask about administrative support. Will you be dictating or typing your own reports? If the former, how is the transcription service? If the latter, is anyone using voice recognition? Is it working for them? What are the expected TATs? Do most people meet them? What's the workload like? How is it divided up? Who decides? ie. Is it first-come-first-serve? Do senior faculty get first dibs? Or, is there a set schedule and the PAs just assign the case to the appropriate queue? Are there PAs? How many? How much of the grossing to they do? How competent are they? How complicated are the cases that they gross? What do the residents gross? What's the expectation for supervision of residents/PAs/etc.? Do residents have protected preview time? At-scope sign-out time? What's the call rota like? What types of other included benefits are there? Healthacre/ Retirement/ Investments/ Insurance plans? Are people generally happy with these or do they seek outside vendors?

There. That should fill up whatever time you may have on the interview trail.

What a great list...thanks!