Popular blog post - harsh reality of vet med

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I just realized that in a couple years I may likely be teaching some of the pre-vets on this board.

****. I better start acting like an adult.

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In a few years?? Haven't you had fourth years coming by on rotation already?

ETA: Oops. Just saw that you said pre-vets. As in, teaching undergrad. Got it. My bad.

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In a few years?? Haven't you had fourth years coming by on rotation already?

ETA: Oops. Just saw that you said pre-vets. As in, teaching undergrad. Got it. My bad.


:laugh: I meant when these particular ones, e.g. lhmhtd, pinkpup, batsenecal, etc. get to vet school.

Dr. WTF why did you kill me in WW on SDN?!

Because, little Timmy, you obviously didn't study for my exam.
 
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How odd will it be to be teaching SDNers???

I actually ran into a few in residency. It was a little odd :laugh: I think I would have to change some things and be a lot more cagey about where I am employed. I've been pretty open about it through my whole education but that will likely have to change.
 
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Feb 15th for UTK and NCSU (two days before my birthday...)
I haven't gotten an interview for Penn (yet?) so :shrug: on that one

Oh, Penn... they are erm.. interesting... they strung me out to the very end before finally rejecting me. I think I was one of those that was just right on the edge and borderline for getting an interview.

Anyway, good luck! :luck:

Do you have a preference for which school?
 
Oh, Penn... they are erm.. interesting... they strung me out to the very end before finally rejecting me. I think I was one of those that was just right on the edge and borderline for getting an interview.

Anyway, good luck! :luck:

Do you have a preference for which school?
Yeah I had heard that they do that :( I'm not too optimistic about my chances there anyway.

Thanks :)

I'm hoping for NCSU for money reasons and because I like that they have a zoo focus area (and it's closer to home than the others), but I really liked UT when I visited. Just hard to stomach the tuition there. Penn's tuition is similar but at least at least in Philly I already have somewhere to live for free.
 
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That's what most brand-new clinical professors at vet schools, who are either board certified in their specialty or have a PhD (or both), get paid.

More senior ones maybe more like 100-120 or so. But yeah. At some of the institutions in big cities it might even be more, but overall still not commeasurate with education and dedication.

Love your clinical profs guys. They put up with neverending education and **** academic salaries to teach you.

(I really like it though, even if it is hell getting there. I'm even taking some paedagogy classes next year to get a sort of teaching certificate. Haven't told my PI though...he'd derisively call me an "academic" ::rolleyes:: )
At our school we hire starting assistant professors in anatomic pathology at 100-110k - after a decade they are making over 130k
 
My conclusion so far from reading these posts is:
1- some practices are run this way.
2-not all practices are run this way.

I want to say that well run practices are not run this way, but I am not sure whether it is fair to make that bold a statement. I will say, that if you are "under-charging" (or more accurately perhaps "pricing low"), you will be forced to cram in more appointments, but, personally, I don't like that style of practice to work at, or to be a client of, but that is unfortunately a reality in many areas. I guess I am used to practices in areas that can charge higher prices and not jam in as many clients as possible with as few vets as possible.

Whatever jobs I have held, I have always opted to the better service, higher price sort of companies, rather than the high volume low profit end, so that is my bias. And it is my bias I agree.
My practice has one of the highest office call charges in the area $65. We are definitely not undercharging so... Idk maybe we're just weird.

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

I'm no business owner, but isn't it time to refuse to see her? The clinic is clearly taking a massive loss there.

I think this (not just you, of course) is where people get the idea that veterinarians are there to do charity work.

I think there are ways you can report. Most counties have laws placing limits on how many pets can be in one household, regardless of medical care. I'm sure there are loopholes around those laws (farms), but in general, they're pretty strict around here. Especially if there are children in the house.
Pretty much, the city is doing nothing about it. They know her property is overrun with cats and they have done nothing. She has no children, she is an old lady. The story goes that after her husband passed away, this problem arose. Interesting tidbits about her, she cremates every single cat that passes away, stray or not. She is that typical animal hoarder you can find on tv.
 
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At our school we hire starting assistant professors in anatomic pathology at 100-110k - after a decade they are making over 130k

That's good to hear that some places are more appreciative financially. I'm sure some of that has to do with cost of living, though. I was quoting 80-90k starting and 100-120 senior salary for vet schools located in areas with COLs approximately 75% of Davis, CA. So in the end, it is probably about the same - although y'all probably have nicer weather ;)

I mean, compared to the average American, 100k is nothing to sniff at. Having never made more than a resident and postdoc salary in my life, I don't even know what 100k looks like. So sometimes I catch myself moaning and groaning about it and realize/admit that I'm not actually going to be destitute or anything of the sort. I suppose some of it stems from the salaries of our MD/DO counterparts (whom I adore and respect, don't get me wrong) and I'd be lying if I said there wasn't some jealousy involved.

Overall, in my opinion, it's not really the fault of the institutions in terms of salary. Hell, 80k-100k is a nice chunk of change. The problem is the debt:salary ratio. The debt is the part that is truly the ridiculous one.
 
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I had the same question but about zoo med.
Though I've interned in a zoo hospital so I do have some idea. You never see everything though. Seemed like the docs there were always handling a ton of emails and paperwork, even though they did relatively few treatments per day compared to private practice.
My experience: cases seen from 7am-noonish, followed by paperwork (keeper/area manager communication, prescriptions, records, etc.). However, this zoo's days were packed every day. Lots of incoming and outgoing animals, and a huge collection. I was lucky in that I was a part of almost every procedure every day, routine or not. It probably varies a LOT based on collection size, hospital staff size, and more. However, i think us zoo people will be very well protected from client interaction and the negatives that come along with it. A client won't medicate his dog? You're stuck. A keeper won't medicate his cheetah? Likely to be fired, relocated, etc.

:laugh: I meant when these particular ones, e.g. lhmhtd, pinkpup, batsenecal, etc. get to vet school.

Dr. WTF why did you kill me in WW on SDN?!

Because, little Timmy, you obviously didn't study for my exam.
I always chuckle a little bit when I'm referred to in a post. Pinkpuppy9 has always been my go-to...since I was 9. Let's be Neofriends, guys.
 
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I always chuckle a little bit when I'm referred to in a post. Pinkpuppy9 has always been my go-to...since I was 9. Let's be Neofriends, guys.

That account was last spotted on neopets 274 days ago, I feel like it'd be a very unrewarding neofriendship. :p
 
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WTF - have u heard anything about a faculty forgiveness program? Mizzou brought it up to me in my interview and pretty much told me that there is a program set up such that after working 10 years as faculty you get non-taxable loan forgiveness (with income based loan payback prior to then). What they were trying to sell me on is that there residency program counts as faculty position, and they discussed that a PhD would be able to be done with the residency.

Also what do you think the prospects are towards faculty positions in general (ik you would know more about path, but just your impressions in general)?
 
WTF - have u heard anything about a faculty forgiveness program? Mizzou brought it up to me in my interview and pretty much told me that there is a program set up such that after working 10 years as faculty you get non-taxable loan forgiveness (with income based loan payback prior to then). What they were trying to sell me on is that there residency program counts as faculty position, and they discussed that a PhD would be able to be done with the residency.

Also what do you think the prospects are towards faculty positions in general (ik you would know more about path, but just your impressions in general)?

Are they talking about the public loan service forgiveness program? If so, there might be changes coming to that this year... including a max cap of (I think) $58,500. However, the way the cap is written basically grandfathers in anyone that STARTS their education prior to when it goes into place (not just repayment, but actually started at a school working on their degree). I don't know if that means you have to have started vet school or just the undergrad part, but I would think vet school. And this only really matters if the cap goes into effect, not sure if it will pass or not.

If they aren't talking about PLSF, then nevermind... just ignore me... :whistle:
 
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Are they talking about the public loan service forgiveness program? If so, there might be changes coming to that this year... including a max cap of (I think) $58,500. However, the way the cap is written basically grandfathers in anyone that STARTS their education prior to when it goes into place (not just repayment, but actually started at a school working on their degree). I don't know if that means you have to have started vet school or just the undergrad part, but I would think vet school. And this only really matters if the cap goes into effect, not sure if it will pass or not.

If they aren't talking about PLSF, then nevermind... just ignore me... :whistle:
I will be completely honest when I say I don't know exactly what the program is. Interviews at Mizzou are only 15 minutes, and I was already over the time limit when they started talking about cost of attendance and how I should really consider doing that program. If I am accepted, I am planning on flying back out to Mizzou and talking with the assistant dean who discussed it with me, I had not even heard a word of anything like that prior to that interview.

But thanks for letting me know about that! :) if it is that program, I certainly will know what questions to ask now :)
 
I feel people should read this, even to just get a general perspective. I started classes today, and in my endocrinology class, a junior pre-vet girl said that she plans to go into only equine medicine because they and specialists make the most money in the profession. The way she said it kind of rubbed me the wrong way because she made it sound as if it was the only smart route and that it would be easy for her to get. Her tone just suggested to me that she doesn't have a good grasp on the debt:income ratio of vets in general.

Oh Lord. Somebody should probably tell that poor girl that the average starting salary for equine vets is the lowest of all the fields.
 
I will be completely honest when I say I don't know exactly what the program is. Interviews at Mizzou are only 15 minutes, and I was already over the time limit when they started talking about cost of attendance and how I should really consider doing that program. If I am accepted, I am planning on flying back out to Mizzou and talking with the assistant dean who discussed it with me, I had not even heard a word of anything like that prior to that interview.

But thanks for letting me know about that! :) if it is that program, I certainly will know what questions to ask now :)
They were probably referring to PSLF, which would include working for a non-profit land grant university or a shelter.
 
That account was last spotted on neopets 274 days ago, I feel like it'd be a very unrewarding neofriendship. :p
But that tells you that I'm 23 and have played within the last year....

Shoot. Imagine all of the neopoints I could have collected in interest.....:smack:
 
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They were probably referring to PSLF, which would include working for a non-profit land grant university or a shelter.

The issue with that is, the PSLF is geared towards didactic-only teaching professions (e.g. teaching high school and college) or human healthcare (MD/DO, RN, DNP, etc). Clinical professors are contributing to public education, but also perform diagnostic service to the university hospital. Therefore, our services provide money for the hospital (and as far as I know not all teaching hospitals are formally designated nonprofit - anyone know?) thus our employment is not technically "non profit" anymore. Also, I don't even know if veterinary medicine applies - it is directed towards healthcare practitioners.

This is who can qualify:

• Emergency management, • Military service, • Public safety, • Law enforcement, • Public interest law services, • Early childhood education (including licensed or regulated childcare, Head Start, and statefunded pre-kindergarten), • Public service for individuals with disabilities and the elderly, • Public health (including nurses, nurse practitioners, nurses in a clinical setting, and full-time professionals engaged in health care practitioner occupations and health care support occupations), • Public education, • Public library services, or • School library or other school-based services

I mean, maybe in a very small subset of jobs we would qualify....but I have personally never heard of a veterinary prof on PSLF, unless maybe they were teaching public health at a university level or something.....I could be wrong, but that's just been my exposure.
 
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The issue with that is, the PSLF is geared towards didactic-only teaching professions (e.g. teaching high school and college). Clinical professors also perform diagnostic service to the hospital. Therefore, our services provide money for the hospital, thus our employment is not technically "non profit" anymore like, say, a high school biology teacher. I honestly don't even know if we would qualify.
Yeah when I was looking into that after DVMD mentioned it, I was also confused by exactly what u were saying.... Have u heard of any other programs, or is that the only one?
 
The only other thing I could find was a faculty disadvantaged students program (which I don't think I would qualify as disadvantaged, but hey, maybe they consider a couple of hundred grand in the hole to be economically disadvantaged?) and that is capped at 80k (or rather 40k plus however much the school was willing to offer, which was usually matching that. So yeah...
 
The issue with that is, the PSLF is geared towards didactic-only teaching professions (e.g. teaching high school and college) or human healthcare (MD/DO, RN, DNP, etc). Clinical professors are contributing to public education, but also perform diagnostic service to the university hospital. Therefore, our services provide money for the hospital (and as far as I know not all teaching hospitals are formally designated nonprofit - anyone know?) thus our employment is not technically "non profit" anymore. Also, I don't even know if veterinary medicine applies - it is directed towards healthcare practitioners.

This is who can qualify:

• Emergency management, • Military service, • Public safety, • Law enforcement, • Public interest law services, • Early childhood education (including licensed or regulated childcare, Head Start, and statefunded pre-kindergarten), • Public service for individuals with disabilities and the elderly, • Public health (including nurses, nurse practitioners, nurses in a clinical setting, and full-time professionals engaged in health care practitioner occupations and health care support occupations), • Public education, • Public library services, or • School library or other school-based services

I mean, maybe in a very small subset of jobs we would qualify....but I have personally never heard of a veterinary prof on PSLF, unless maybe they were teaching public health at a university level or something.....I could be wrong, but that's just been my exposure.
Hmmm interesting. I know when the program was first introduced (back when I was applying to vet school I think), they said that didactic teaching qualified. I wonder if you need to have a certain percentage of teaching duty vs. hospital/research duty to be considered? Like someone who was doing 75% teaching would qualify but someone who was doing only 25% teaching , 25% research and 50% clinics would not. Not sure, just pulling this outta my butt.
 
Hmmm interesting. I know when the program was first introduced (back when I was applying to vet school I think), they said that didactic teaching qualified. I wonder if you need to have a certain percentage of teaching duty vs. hospital/research duty to be considered? Like someone who was doing 75% teaching would qualify but someone who was doing only 25% teaching , 25% research and 50% clinics would not. Not sure, just pulling this outta my butt.

I've wondered the same thing. No-one seems to know :shrug:
 
Honestly with regards to faculty positions overall....I feel like I'm not a good gauge. I think in a couple years when I'm actually applying, I'll have a better idea. I don't think it's terrible, but it's definitely competitive and likely more difficult than general practice where you are usually guaranteed at least one or two offers, even if they are not in an area you want.

Think of how many vet schools there are to teach at. Each of them pumping out anywhere from 1-3 residents in a given specialty per year. Plus a dozen or so other programs at translational institutions pumping out more. Are those same institutions advertising 1-3 new faculty positions in each specialty a year? Hell no. So yeah....the odds are not in your favor. Your board certification and research fellowships are by no means any sort of gaurantee of a faculty position. I knew quite a few DVM+DACVP+PhDs who were applying everywhere and anywhere for jobs in residency.

The upside, though, is you really do get to go exactly what you want to do. That's what keeps me going. The light at the end of it when I can focus on really contributing to the next generation of vets, being a good mentor and teacher, and of course having a ball with diagnostics and collaborative research.
 
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Honestly with regards to faculty positions overall....I feel like I'm not a good gauge. I think in a couple years when I'm actually applying, I'll have a better idea. I don't think it's terrible, but it's definitely competitive and likely more difficult than general practice where you are usually guaranteed at least one or two offers, even if they are not in an area you want.

Think of how many vet schools there are to teach at. Each of them pumping out anywhere from 1-3 residents in a given specialty per year. Plus a dozen or so other programs at translational institutions pumping out more. Are those same institutions advertising 1-3 new faculty positions a year? Nope. So yeah....the odds are not in your favor. Your board certification and research fellowships are by no means any sort of gaurantee of a faculty position. I knew quite a few DVM+DACVP+PhDs who were applying everywhere and anywhere for jobs in residency.
Do you definitely want to go into academia? I know it's been on your radar for a while, and that's why you went after the PhD. But worse case scenario, do you think you'd be okay accepting an industry job?
 
Do you definitely want to go into academia? I know it's been on your radar for a while, and that's why you went after the PhD. But worse case scenario, do you think you'd be okay accepting an industry job?

It may come down to that. If I had to do it for a few years, I could do it. And the pay is really nice. But I don't think I could do it forever. I'd probably burn out if I just became a glass-pusher for Pfizer for the rest of my life, looking at endless drug toxicity studies all day. Mind-numbing. I didn't go through all this for that. Working for something like IDEXX would be ok I guess, but still very "production" oriented and you see a lot of the same boring stuff all the time.

A state or regional diagnostic lab would be awesome, though. Pretty much everyone I know who works at one loves it. But those jobs are like needles in haystacks. No one is retiring.
 
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\ No one is retiring.

Every time I hear this I have this image of a bunch of old people that refuse to retire and then it moves to an image that these people can only live so long, which turns to all these people that refuse to retire dying off all at relatively close to the same time... and then Bam! (I don't really know what happens after that)...
 
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Every time I hear this I have this image of a bunch of old people that refuse to retire and then it moves to an image that these people can only live so long, which turns to all these people that refuse to retire dying off all at relatively close to the same time... and then Bam! (I don't really know what happens after that)...


All the newbies go

corgi-stampede.gif
 
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i might log in at least weekly to do stocks/collect interest. I'm totally an adult I swear.
I might have logged in every day in December for the Advent Calendar.
 
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Maybe I am just really cynical but I hate the whole "you choose how you feel each day" saying... particularly as someone who has suffered from depression and compassion fatigue before, it really is not that simple.
Agree. I hear you, as someone who deals with chronic (daily) pain for which there is no cure (unless they're doing head transplants now).
 
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Maybe I am just really cynical but I hate the whole "you choose how you feel each day" saying... particularly as someone who has suffered from depression and compassion fatigue before, it really is not that simple.

I hear you.

I mean...she's young and means well. Her intentions are to sound like an inspiring new vet who's ready to take on the world. But everone has different life experiences and those of us with issues such as the above (I have also struggled, and struggle still, with several of them and understand the reflexible "God I hate you" type of thing we feel when someone comes dancing in all sunshine and daisies) have a harder time of it.

She has good intentions. It just comes off as very naive.
 
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