Ranking Yale Pathology Residency?

[NYnow]

Hi senior members,

I would like to get a serious help on this issue. I have heard from several sources as well as on this forum that Yale pathology program is malignant or not worth it. Now I understand that any program that has very heavy workload is not likely to be popular unless it is Harvard or Hopkins, but given that it is in New Haven, has daily grossing cycle, is front-heavy, and a resident indicating to me during the interview that subspecialty sign-out schedules are so heavy that you don't get to preview the cases, let alone be able to read texts, I am really put off despite the fact that Yale as an institute sounds good.

Subspecialty sign-outs anyway have one disadvantage of forgetting what you learned over a period of time, and if you can not really read/preview/learn well, where does that lead to? What is your opinion?

I liked the PD, but am not sure such is the place I want to be. Any informed advice would help me a lot while ranking the programs.

Thank you.

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[mlw03]

Don't know about Yale, but my residency was subspecialty sign-out. It's good and bad. The bad is the obvious gap - you spend a month on gyn then don't do it again for a few months, maybe even a year. The good is the concentrated focus and faculty expertise. I don't have a basis for comparison, but I generally liked it, and wouldn't let that stop me from ranking a program.

I'd also say you should consider your long-term goals when deciding how much "name" prestige matters to you. To me, lack of preview time would have been a major detracting factor.

 

[KCShaw]

I can only think of one person I know who spent any residency time at Yale, and that was about 4 eons ago. He must have transferred or something perhaps when Rosai left; at least, looking at his biography now it says he did residency at Yale -and- George Washington U -- dunno. At any rate, while sometimes intense and a little quirky, was/is an exceptional pathologist. I vaguely recall him describing Yale as intense but don't recall him speaking ill of it. But, again, long time ago. I'm sure someone else has more recent and relevant experience.

Personally? I think some people just aren't going to thrive in busy, intense programs. They tend to recruit in such a way that their residents are likely to thrive wherever they go, and yes, perhaps some thrive a little more at the big, busy, intense places. Other people would crash and burn, and simply need a different kind of environment in which to thrive. On paper, I would always prefer a place which offers some dedicated preview time -- but there are a lot of other things to take into consideration. Is it only a problem on one service/1 month out of 4 years? How much scope-teaching is involved, especially in the absence of adequate preview time? Are the local gurus isolated in an office or are they involved in resident teaching? If grossing is intense and lengthy, are the other rotations or signout times able to offset that? And so on and so forth. But frankly, just because a place is busy and intense doesn't make it malignant; very slow places are capable of having a much worse atmosphere.

As an aside -- if you outright decide not to rank a place, it would be nice if the PD was eventually told why.

 

[mlw03]

I can only think of one person I know who spent any residency time at Yale, and that was about 4 eons ago. He must have transferred or something perhaps when Rosai left; at least, looking at his biography now it says he did residency at Yale -and- George Washington U -- dunno. At any rate, while sometimes intense and a little quirky, was/is an exceptional pathologist. I vaguely recall him describing Yale as intense but don't recall him speaking ill of it. But, again, long time ago. I'm sure someone else has more recent and relevant experience.

Personally? I think some people just aren't going to thrive in busy, intense programs. They tend to recruit in such a way that their residents are likely to thrive wherever they go, and yes, perhaps some thrive a little more at the big, busy, intense places. Other people would crash and burn, and simply need a different kind of environment in which to thrive. On paper, I would always prefer a place which offers some dedicated preview time -- but there are a lot of other things to take into consideration. Is it only a problem on one service/1 month out of 4 years? How much scope-teaching is involved, especially in the absence of adequate preview time? Are the local gurus isolated in an office or are they involved in resident teaching? If grossing is intense and lengthy, are the other rotations or signout times able to offset that? And so on and so forth. But frankly, just because a place is busy and intense doesn't make it malignant; very slow places are capable of having a much worse atmosphere.

As an aside -- if you outright decide not to rank a place, it would be nice if the PD was eventually told why.

I'll respectfully disagree with KC on this one. I think the intention is good, but pathology is a small field, and why piss off a PD, and risk making an enemy in the process. If you could do this anonymously, then go for it, but I would not send such an email or letter with my name on it. You never know how it'll play out, and there are a lot of ways it could hurt your career.

 

[KCShaw]

Not saying one should call or email them or whatever -- just that PD's probably need to know these things, even if anonymous. If I were in that position, I would want to know, anyway. I agree that pathology is a relatively small world.. although I also think that most of the time honesty in a professional tone breeds respect, though it's quite out of the ordinary for a discussion of such decisions to take place.

 

[BrainPathology]

Hi senior members,

I would like to get a serious help on this issue. I have heard from several sources as well as on this forum that Yale pathology program is malignant or not worth it. Now I understand that any program that has very heavy workload is not likely to be popular unless it is Harvard or Hopkins, but given that it is in New Haven, has daily grossing cycle, is front-heavy, and a resident indicating to me during the interview that subspecialty sign-out schedules are so heavy that you don't get to preview the cases, let alone be able to read texts, I am really put off despite the fact that Yale as an institute sounds good.

Subspecialty sign-outs anyway have one disadvantage of forgetting what you learned over a period of time, and if you can not really read/preview/learn well, where does that lead to? What is your opinion?

I liked the PD, but am not sure such is the place I want to be. Any informed advice would help me a lot while ranking the programs.

Thank you.

Have you tried emailing other residents there with something like: "I sensed a concern from one (or more?) of your residents that there wasn't enough time to preview during sign-out days. Is this true or is it possible that someone adept at time management would be able to avoid this problem." Or some such-with variations for whatever other concerns you have. Was the concern you heard reflective of the 1st-2nd year, does the time management skills improve over the course of the program? Or, does the best 4th year chief still have no time to learn? Assuming, of course, that you haven't already gotten the same answer from a lot of the residents there. Parenthetically, evolving from overwhelmed to being able to manage time to get all previewing and studying done over the course of the program would actually be an outstanding asset to you if you wanted to do private practice- or a very busy academic practice if such a thing exists. It also sounds suspiciously like what a lot of people here say resiencies do way too little of.

I've worked with attendings that had horrid reputations and were absolutely a dream to work with for me. These tended to be detail oriented demanding types that really got impatient when you made mistakes twice, since I rarely do that I never saw a really bad side. I've worked with others that a lot of people loved and it became clear that the love was from a lack of any expectations at all and you could be as talented as cave salamander at looking at slides and they would still say you constantly "met expectations". And of course, the majority of people I work with fit exactly what their reputations are.

A lot of programs have subspecialty sign-out and I've trained at institutions that did it both ways. The depth at which you're able to learn about a sub specialty is, in my opionion, about an equal trade-off to the longitudinal experience you get with general sign out. Besides, if you are going to forget something after a few months you're going to be forgetting it during stretches when you're on autopsy, then clinical path, then lab management or some other stretch.

For what it's work, which is nothing.. I know of one person who trained at Yale too. They were happy with it. But they were also an affable, dynamic, adaptable, and optimistic person (in addition to being very bright). Regardless of the number of first hand responses you get here from Yale grads or current residents I would really think about sending a bunch of emails with your questions to the residents there AND to the PD to see how they respond. At the very least, if you decide to rank them highly, it will have shown your skill in "proactive-ness", gathering evidence for a decision, and assertiveness.

 

[deleted314957]

Hi senior members,

I would like to get a serious help on this issue. I have heard from several sources as well as on this forum that Yale pathology program is malignant or not worth it. Now I understand that any program that has very heavy workload is not likely to be popular unless it is Harvard or Hopkins, but given that it is in New Haven, has daily grossing cycle, is front-heavy, and a resident indicating to me during the interview that subspecialty sign-out schedules are so heavy that you don't get to preview the cases, let alone be able to read texts, I am really put off despite the fact that Yale as an institute sounds good.

Subspecialty sign-outs anyway have one disadvantage of forgetting what you learned over a period of time, and if you can not really read/preview/learn well, where does that lead to? What is your opinion?



I liked the PD, but am not sure such is the place I want to be. Any informed advice would help me a lot while ranking the programs.

Thank you.

i sound like a broken record but having a 30 year perspective on this field and having hired people in pp i/we really did not care where someone did their residency. i/we were most concerned with 1) board certification, 2) experience (without training wheels) and 3)personality/communication skills ( which often hampered fmg's).
i paid about as much attention to the name "yale" etc as i did to the color of their socks.

 

[KCShaw]

..snip..
I've worked with attendings that had horrid reputations and were absolutely a dream to work with for me. These tended to be detail oriented demanding types that really got impatient when you made mistakes twice, since I rarely do that I never saw a really bad side. I've worked with others that a lot of people loved and it became clear that the love was from a lack of any expectations at all and you could be as talented as cave salamander at looking at slides and they would still say you constantly "met expectations". And of course, the majority of people I work with fit exactly what their reputations are.
..snip..

 

[gbwillner]

Don't know about Yale, but my residency was subspecialty sign-out. It's good and bad. The bad is the obvious gap - you spend a month on gyn then don't do it again for a few months, maybe even a year. The good is the concentrated focus and faculty expertise. I don't have a basis for comparison, but I generally liked it, and wouldn't let that stop me from ranking a program.

I'd also say you should consider your long-term goals when deciding how much "name" prestige matters to you. To me, lack of preview time would have been a major detracting factor.

I definitely agree with this. It's both good and bad, and it depends on you if it will be a good fit. Personally, I think the focus is more positive than negative.

In terms of volume- this also depends on what kind of person you are. Do you learn by reading or by doing? If the latter, Yale would be a good place for you.

I know several people who trained at Yale, and all were happy with the experience. I interviewed there, and ranked them pretty highly, so I can tell you I was impressed with the place.

In regards to the name "Yale"- it will impress your friends/family. Will it impress future employers? Maybe. I would call it an "up-and-coming" type of program. It certainly won't hurt you in any way.

 

[Tissue issue]

Hi senior members,

I would like to get a serious help on this issue. I have heard from several sources as well as on this forum that Yale pathology program is malignant or not worth it. Now I understand that any program that has very heavy workload is not likely to be popular unless it is Harvard or Hopkins, but given that it is in New Haven, has daily grossing cycle, is front-heavy, and a resident indicating to me during the interview that subspecialty sign-out schedules are so heavy that you don't get to preview the cases, let alone be able to read texts, I am really put off despite the fact that Yale as an institute sounds good.

Subspecialty sign-outs anyway have one disadvantage of forgetting what you learned over a period of time, and if you can not really read/preview/learn well, where does that lead to? What is your opinion?

I liked the PD, but am not sure such is the place I want to be. Any informed advice would help me a lot while ranking the programs.

Thank you.

NYnow- I bolded the only 2 positive things you mentioned about the program. The name Yale and the PD (who is going to strive to be nice to candidates interviewing). My advice- look elsewhere.

 

[deleted314957]

NYnow- I bolded the only 2 positive things you mentioned about the program. The name Yale and the PD (who is going to strive to be nice to candidates interviewing). My advice- look elsewhere.

My advice, go where YOU are happy with them and THEY are happy with you. Screw the name.

 

[yaah]

Pedigree is important but there are a lot of good programs. I suspect that if you pick another program it would have a similar reputation in path circles anyway. Yale path is good but it isn't like in undergrad where the ivy league schools have all superior reputations. My advice is to never pick a program because of the name - it's a setup for failure and disappointment. There have to be other more tangible reasons to pick a program - the name is just a peripheral component.

"Malignant" is in the eye of the beholder. Be cautious of putting too much stock in someone's description of a program as malignant. If it's a recurring theme, fine, but individual opinions can be extremely misleading. You don't know why someone has a bad view of a program - might have very litle to do with the program.

 

[malchik]

I am familiar with Yale. It is like any other high-volume, subspecialty-oriented place. No time to preview? Not true. Residents there preview afternoons-evenings after grossing. Yes it's busy but I doubt it's as heavy as, say, MGH or BWH or WashU. People put way too much stock into fleeting impressions from interview days and rumors. You should be far more concerned with what fellowships are available and location, IMO.

 

[TinyFish]

I am familiar with Yale. It is like any other high-volume, subspecialty-oriented place. No time to preview? Not true. Residents there preview afternoons-evenings after grossing. Yes it's busy but I doubt it's as heavy as, say, MGH or BWH or WashU. People put way too much stock into fleeting impressions from interview days and rumors. You should be far more concerned with what fellowships are available and location, IMO.

"No time to preview" is a very subjective statement, I've come to learn...

 

[KCShaw]

On the tangent -- When I first started, our "preview time" was between when the slides came out around 6AM and when the attending wanted to start sign-out around 8:30 or so much of the time, and, oh yes, we had mandatory morning lectures or meetings at least a few days out of the week which wedged their way into that already narrow preview zone. If we weren't there slurping up the slides before the coverslip had set then we were just typical lazy residents who wanted it all handed to us on a silver platter. But, by golly, we had preview time. It did get a little better, but basically turnaround time in a private practice (contracted in-house at the med school hospital, among other places) was always going to trump a more reasonable preview time for residents -- although, eventually 2~3 hours was about enough.

Where I finished, however, I had to laugh a bit at the complaints about preview time as slides came out in the early to mid afternoon and you had until roughly the middle of the -next morning!- to preview. I kinda regressed in how long it took me.

Point being, residents at both places complained at times about having "no" or "not enough" preview time, but the environment for each was significantly different.

 

[yaah]

"No time to preview" is a very subjective statement, I've come to learn...

lol, very true.