RANT HERE thread

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looking at texas law, I'm not certain she did break the law. Though we are focusing on the animal being a cat, does it change things if it were a wild rabbit or deer that was a general pest and destroying her backyard? I also have to question if there was abuse/suffering as it looked like a very clean shot. So I don't think I'd compare this to a pediatrician abusing a child. It's apples and oranges. What I do think is that she showed remarkable lack of judgement in posting the picture and her subsequent comments on the picture. That lack of judgement would make me not want to hire her, personally.
Some pre-vet students at my alma mater were saying that cats are exempt under any law stating that it's okay to shoot/kill wildlife, in Texas. I haven't looked it up on my own, but that would certainly change the nature of any animal cruelty charges that may be brought against her.

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Does someone really deserve their life ruined over one, in very poor taste joke?

Deserve? I really don't know. That partly depends on whether a crime was committed and what the TX practice act says (I don't know the answer to either of those questions.)

But if I were the private practice owner Sure, I'd fire her. Regardless of WHAT she did, it didn't take a great deal of foresight to know what kind of reaction it would get, which means that everything else aside, she has incredibly poor judgment. Good judgment is required in our job, and it's something that (in my opinion) can only be taught to a certain level. At some point you either have it or you don't. And if I were sitting there evaluating my employee after all this went down, I'd be thinking "Nope.... she doesn't have it."

It wouldn't even be an angry firing. It would just be "All the facts aren't out yet about what happened, so I'm not letting you go because of the right or wrong of what you did. I'm letting you go because it showed incredibly poor judgment, as did your follow-up comments. I can't accept that risk in my practice. Best of luck to you." And if she were applying for a job ... I'd be thinking the same thing? "Nope. There are plenty of other candidates out there who don't have such a demonstrated history of bad judgment."

But back on track, I really do think this was more hate-generating because she's a vet than if it was some redneck in the Appalachians posting a gap-toothed photo of a cat on an arrow. I also don't think I would describe it as a "joke". I think she was obviously joking about "vet of the year" and stuff, but shooting the cat wasn't a joke.
 
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Some pre-vet students at my alma mater were saying that cats are exempt under any law stating that it's okay to shoot/kill wildlife, in Texas. I haven't looked it up on my own, but that would certainly change the nature of any animal cruelty charges that may be brought against her.
Again, I don't know the texas law. But I will say it seems apparent she thought the animal was unowned. While I don't like the act (and would be appalled personally at that), I just don't know what the punishment will be for the law there. It could just be a fine. I don't necessary think jail time is necessary. I think her lack of hireability is going to be punishment enough
 
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Deserve? I really don't know. That partly depends on whether a crime was committed and what the TX practice act says (I don't know the answer to either of those questions.)

But if I were the private practice owner Sure, I'd fire her. Regardless of WHAT she did, it didn't take a great deal of foresight to know what kind of reaction it would get, which means that everything else aside, she has incredibly poor judgment. Good judgment is required in our job, and it's something that (in my opinion) can only be taught to a certain level. At some point you either have it or you don't. And if I were sitting there evaluating my employee after all this went down, I'd be thinking "Nope.... she doesn't have it."

It wouldn't even be an angry firing. It would just be "All the facts aren't out yet about what happened, so I'm not letting you go because of the right or wrong of what you did. I'm letting you go because it showed incredibly poor judgment, as did your follow-up comments. I can't accept that risk in my practice. Best of luck to you." And if she were applying for a job ... I'd be thinking the same thing? "Nope. There are plenty of other candidates out there who don't have such a demonstrated history of bad judgment."

But back on track, I really do think this was more hate-generating because she's a vet than if it was some redneck in the Appalachians posting a gap-toothed photo of a cat on an arrow. I also don't think I would describe it as a "joke". I think she was obviously joking about "vet of the year" and stuff, but shooting the cat wasn't a joke.

Oh I agree. I was just getting into the realm of online witch hunts in general. Joke was in reference to the Justine Sacco thing, definitely not what this veterinarian did. That was an act of cruelty and illegality. She deserved to be fired and any criminal charges she may face.
 
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Some pre-vet students at my alma mater were saying that cats are exempt under any law stating that it's okay to shoot/kill wildlife, in Texas. I haven't looked it up on my own, but that would certainly change the nature of any animal cruelty charges that may be brought against her.

If that's true, then fine, it may be animal cruelty. I don't know. I have to admit I really don't admire the response from a lot of people within the profession. I expect vitriolic, emotionally-laden crap from laypeople, but we should be better than that. I've seen veterinarians calling it "cruelty" - but do we know that? Bow hunting isn't considered a "cruel" way to kill, so until it's demonstrated that it was cruel under Texas law, I'm not sure it makes sense to say it was "cruel". And if someone is going to argue it was cruel because it was a bow .... well, that obviously opens a big can of worms for veterinarians that like to hunt in general. I saw two vets describe it as "murder" - but murder is specifically defined as killing another human being. So that hyperbolic language doesn't help either.

People need to be careful how they talk about it. What she did might be illegal (I don't know). It might be cruel (I don't know what Texas law says, but I don't see that it was generally cruel in some vague universal sense). It's definitely "unneighborly" (If the cat really does turn out to be a neighbor pet). Did it violate the veterinarian's oath? I don't really see how. Lots of veterinarians hunt, so throwing the whole bit about "prevention and relief of animal suffering" thing doesn't seem <necessarily> and <clearly> to apply.

Anyway. I'm not defending her, because I think her judgment was incredibly poor. But I do think we should be more cautious about what terms we use to describe what we think she did, and I think we should be quicker to ask ourselves "What do I really KNOW about what happened?" rather than just reacting emotionally to a picture on Facebook.
 
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Oh I agree. I was just getting into the realm of online witch hunts in general. Joke was in reference to the Justine Sacco thing, definitely not what this veterinarian did. That was an act of cruelty and illegality. She deserved to be fired and any criminal charges she may face.

I don't know the Justine Sacco thing (at least, it doesn't immediately come to mind). I'll have to do some googling. Didn't Jon Ronson just publish "So You've Been Publically Shamed"? I think I saw him on the Daily Show a week or so ago talking about it. Probably this Texas vet should read the book, though her problems (loss of job, possible license action, possible criminal charges) go far beyond "just" shaming.
 
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So I don't think I'd compare this to a pediatrician abusing a child. It's apples and oranges.

You might think it's apples and oranges, but where I live, the general public wouldn't. It might be different in areas where hunting is more prevalent and where people regularly view cats as pests, but where I live, people would expect vets to be the last to shoot a neighborhood cat through the head with an arrow and would view it as a direct contradiction of everything vets are supposed to stand for, in their eyes. And public perception does matter.

What I do think is that she showed remarkable lack of judgement in posting the picture and her subsequent comments on the picture. That lack of judgement would make me not want to hire her, personally.

Agreed. Her lack of judgment and the stupid comments would've done her in even if her actions were excusable.
 
But back on track, I really do think this was more hate-generating because she's a vet than if it was some redneck in the Appalachians posting a gap-toothed photo of a cat on an arrow.

Of course it was more hate-generating. Over Easter weekend, a man out in Utica, NY with a prior animal cruelty conviction shot a neighborhood cat with a crossbow, but most people didn't hear about it. I don't think it's wrong at all to hold vets to a higher standard than that random idiot out in Utica. We should expect better treatment of animals from people who are being paid to treat animals and who have sworn to certain responsibilities.
 
You might think it's apples and oranges, but where I live, the general public wouldn't. It might be different in areas where hunting is more prevalent and where people regularly view cats as pests, but where I live, people would expect vets to be the last to shoot a neighborhood cat through the head with an arrow and would view it as a direct contradiction of everything vets are supposed to stand for, in their eyes. And public perception does matter.
yes but you aren't where she lives...

It's still not on par. At all. It's a completely different situation and she appears to not have viewed the cat as a pet but as a feral cat. it wasn't a "neighborhood cat".

FWIW, I don't hunt nor do I live in an area with a lot of hunters.
 
yes but you aren't where she lives...

Neither do the vast majority of people talking about this story, but this news and the reactions of people in the industry affect public perception of vets as a whole. Yes, some people are just out looking for the Outrage of the Day to get worked up over, but I've also seen comments from ordinary people about how they're worried that "animal abusers" can become vets and are asking what is wrong with the profession that they'd "allow" someone like this to practice.
 
Again, I don't know the texas law. But I will say it seems apparent she thought the animal was unowned. While I don't like the act (and would be appalled personally at that), I just don't know what the punishment will be for the law there. It could just be a fine. I don't necessary think jail time is necessary. I think her lack of hireability is going to be punishment enough

I agree. Vet Issues is a required class for first and second year at my school and one of the things we've been focusing on this block is social media. Just a few weeks ago, we had Patrick Mahaney come and speak to us about Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, etc and how to be so careful on what you post and where. If she hadn't posted this somewhere, a lot fewer people would have heard about it and she may still have a job.
 
Bow hunting isn't considered a "cruel" way to kill, so until it's demonstrated that it was cruel under Texas law, I'm not sure it makes sense to say it was "cruel". And if someone is going to argue it was cruel because it was a bow .... well, that obviously opens a big can of worms for veterinarians that like to hunt in general.
Nowhere in AVMA's list of acceptable methods of euthanasia does it state bow/arrow as appropriate. It does have gunshot methods listed for small animals but also lists that it should only be done in extreme circumstances and with cats would be best done under sedation as it is difficult shoot humanely. (A method acceptable with conditions, use of gunshot may be appropriate in remote areas or emergency situations in which withholding death by gunshot will result in prolonged, unrelieved pain and suffering of the animal or imminent danger to human life). Obviously that wasn't the case here. There are standards that vets are supposed to uphold and this seems like a very basic one. So yes, I would call this animal cruelty, especially because she should have known better.
 
You might think it's apples and oranges, but where I live, the general public wouldn't.

EVERYTHING else aside (as in, the whole cat incident, etc.) the above-quoted attitude is pretty dangerous. You simply should not ever be judging someone living in a different context by the values in your context. There's a reason that standard of care definitions almost always include some verbiage like "same or similar community" or "same or similar circumstances."

I think it's apples and oranges to compare Dr. Lindsey/cat to a pediatrician/child, too. The comparison just doesn't stand up.
 
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I agree. Vet Issues is a required class for first and second year at my school and one of the things we've been focusing on this block is social media. Just a few weeks ago, we had Patrick Mahaney come and speak to us about Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, etc and how to be so careful on what you post and where. If she hadn't posted this somewhere, a lot fewer people would have heard about it and she may still have a job.

I think social media usage is a really big deal. I've been successful in not posting anything school related (other than blah blah exams are hard, blah blah long hours, etc) or any photographs with animals/animal parts in them during these last four years. I can't say the same for some of my classmates and I just don't get it. Sure, you want people to know the cool stuff you're doing, but there are tactful ways of doing so.
 
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Nowhere in AVMA's list of acceptable methods of euthanasia does it state bow/arrow as appropriate. It does have gunshot methods listed for small animals but also lists that it should only be done in extreme circumstances and with cats would be best done under sedation as it is difficult shoot humanely. (A method acceptable with conditions, use of gunshot may be appropriate in remote areas or emergency situations in which withholding death by gunshot will result in prolonged, unrelieved pain and suffering of the animal or imminent danger to human life). Obviously that wasn't the case here. There are standards that vets are supposed to uphold and this seems like a very basic one. So yes, I would call this animal cruelty, especially because she should have known better.
yes, but what about bow hunters? should this be considered euthanasia? It's a grey zone to me.
 
Nowhere in AVMA's list of acceptable methods of euthanasia does it state bow/arrow as appropriate.

Yes, but she wasn't euthanizing the animal. A much closer definition of what she was doing is hunting.

Are you suggesting veterinarians that are hunting should only hunt using AVMA's acceptable methods of euthanasia; else they're being cruel? Or are you suggesting veterinarians shouldn't hunt?

To call it euthanasia is to imply that she was 'treating' the animal, because euthanasia is a medical procedure we administer under certain circumstances to an animal. This wasn't euthanasia. The cat was not a patient of hers. Since it wasn't euthanasia, there's no reason to think that it should be limited to methods considered acceptable euthanasia.

I simply can't accept that you're going to call it euthanasia unless you're going to call hunting euthanasia. It makes no sense.
 
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Yes, but she wasn't euthanizing the animal. A much closer definition of what she was doing is hunting.

"Euthanasia is derived from the Greek terms eu meaning good and thanatos meaning death. The term is usually used to describe ending the life of an individual animal in a way that minimizes or eliminates pain and distress. A good death is tantamount to the humane termination of an animal’s life."

By the AVMA's and my own personal definition of euthanasia, hunting should also fall under that category.

Are you suggesting veterinarians that are hunting should only hunt using AVMA's acceptable methods of euthanasia; else they're being cruel? Or are you suggesting veterinarians shouldn't hunt?

To call it euthanasia is to imply that she was 'treating' the animal, because euthanasia is a medical procedure we administer under certain circumstances to an animal. This wasn't euthanasia. The cat was not a patient of hers. Since it wasn't euthanasia, there's no reason to think that it should be limited to methods considered acceptable euthanasia.

I simply can't accept that you're going to call it euthanasia unless you're going to call hunting euthanasia. It makes no sense.
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Euthanasia does not actually imply a patient relationship - law enforcement or animal control can euthanize animals if they are causing a public danger, etc. There's obviously not a patient relationship there, yet it occurs.

Veterinarians hunting SHOULD use acceptable methods of euthanasia for the species they are hunting. I come from a family of avid hunters, I'm very much okay with hunting so long as the persons doing so are doing their best to give the animals a humane death. You don't go hunting for ducks with a bow, and if you do you aim for the breast to hit the heart not the head, a much smaller and more difficult target. You don't go hunting for domestic cats PERIOD. Feral or not. Live trapping followed by humane euthanasia for feral unadoptable cats causing problems? Acceptable. Hunting with a bow? Not at all.
 
"Euthanasia is derived from the Greek terms eu meaning good and thanatos meaning death. The term is usually used to describe ending the life of an individual animal in a way that minimizes or eliminates pain and distress. A good death is tantamount to the humane termination of an animal’s life."

By the AVMA's and my own personal definition of euthanasia, hunting should also fall under that category

Then for consistency sake I presume (and hope) that you are staunchly opposed to bow-hunting in general, because it's generally considered an acceptable hunting modality. I don't think it makes sense to try and claim that 'euthanasia' and 'hunting' are the same thing, but I won't argue about it.

Euthanasia does not actually imply a patient relationship - law enforcement or animal control can euthanize animals if they are causing a public danger, etc. There's obviously not a patient relationship there, yet it occurs.

I certainly view that as 'treating' the cat, which implies a 'patient' relationship, even if it's not a doctor administering the treatment.
 
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Then for consistency sake I presume (and hope) that you are staunchly opposed to bow-hunting in general, because it's generally considered an acceptable hunting modality. I don't think it makes sense to try and claim that 'euthanasia' and 'hunting' are the same thing, but I won't argue about it.
Obviously hunting involves a lot more than the end part of ending an animal's life (traipsing out to your location, training dogs to either flush out or fetch the feathered targets, buying and wearing everything camo/bright orange, drinking beer, etc). But I guess I see the part where an animal dies should be as close to a euthanasia as possible, a "good death." The animal dies with a minimal amount of distress and pain.

Bow-hunting can provide a "good death." And for a layman, that's good enough for me. But I do hold vets to a higher standard, and if AVMA says "don't use physical methods like gunshot to euth a cat unless absolutely necessary and if you must, try to sedate it first" (I obviously paraphrased here) then using a bow to kill a perfectly healthy (assumption here) cat that's wandering around minding it's own business is cruel. But that's just like, my opinion.

I certainly view that as 'treating' the cat, which implies a 'patient' relationship, even if it's not a doctor administering the treatment.

I think at this point we're just arguing semantics.
 
You simply should not ever be judging someone living in a different context by the values in your context.

While I can agree with this in general, most people don't think this way. Hence the outrage over this case from people from all over the world. I'm not necessarily saying it's right, though I do believe there are limits to moral relativism (for instance, do you think it's fair to judge a Jainist animal shelter where animals are left to die of rabies naturally because any form of killing is immoral?). And I don't believe that contexts are always so wholly different that you can't make any comment at all as to how appropriate someone's actions were.

What I'm saying is that it's important to be mindful of how incidents like this affect public perception and to understand WHY people are so outraged and so shocked that it was a vet who did this. We can talk about context and values all day long, but if people who are patronizing the clinic down my street are having their view of the profession tainted and distorted by things like this and if they decide to hold all vets accountable for it, then that's another real problem.

I think it's apples and oranges to compare Dr. Lindsey/cat to a pediatrician/child, too. The comparison just doesn't stand up.

It does in many people's eyes because they view the profession as being responsible primarily responsible for animal welfare and refraining from killing except when absolutely necessary. That view of the profession may not be 100% accurate, especially since lots of people don't realize that some vets do hunt, but this is where the outrage is coming from. The belief that vets have the same responsibility to animals, especially cats and dogs, that human doctors have to their human patients.
 
I think social media usage is a really big deal. I've been successful in not posting anything school related (other than blah blah exams are hard, blah blah long hours, etc) or any photographs with animals/animal parts in them during these last four years. I can't say the same for some of my classmates and I just don't get it. Sure, you want people to know the cool stuff you're doing, but there are tactful ways of doing so.
There is never any shortage of vet students posting a picture of them holding their first pair of removed testicles, on Facebook :rolleyes: I try pretty hard to not post anything I wouldn't want future employers seeing. I still post text statuses about things, but it's more "I learned how to place an esophagostomy tube today!" and stuff like that.
 
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Bow-hunting can provide a "good death." And for a layman, that's good enough for me. But I do hold vets to a higher standard, and if AVMA says "don't use physical methods like gunshot to euth a cat unless absolutely necessary and if you must, try to sedate it first" (I obviously paraphrased here) then using a bow to kill a perfectly healthy (assumption here) cat that's wandering around minding it's own business is cruel. But that's just like, my opinion.

I can't really tell if that last bit is genuine, or snark (as in, "that's just like, my opinion, which happens to be the AVMA's opinion"). If snark ... meh, not useful. I mean, obviously your opinion is just your opinion. Same is true of me. And I very much doubt the AVMA would go so far as to say that veterinarians should only use its approved euthanasia methods for hunting, even if that's how you personally view it.

If you equate hunting (at least, the 'end of it' like you said) and euthanasia ... then sure, I can see how you'd arrive at considering what she did unethical. That's a consistent conclusion from your premises.

I just don't agree that they're the same thing, so from my perspective trying to apply the AVMA euthanasia standards is nonsensical.

While I can agree with this in general, most people don't think this way. Hence the outrage over this case from people from all over the world.

No doubt. I agree completely with that. But my point is that YOU - as a future veterinarian - should be more cautious about that, precisely because medicine utilizes a tool called 'standard of care' that requires it. She should be judged by Texas law and the TexasVMA .... not what I happen to think sucks up in MN.

I do believe there are limits to moral relativism

I agree with you. I'm simply encouraging you to be more careful about applying standards from one place to another, which is what you initially did.

What I'm saying is that it's important to be mindful of how incidents like this affect public perception and to understand WHY people are so outraged and so shocked that it was a vet who did this.

Obviously. That, to me, is almost the <most> astounding thing - that someone in her position would do something that so obviously would cause the outrage it's caused. You don't need to think really hard to see that storm coming down the pipe. That, to me, shows that her judgment is so compromised that I wouldn't ever trust her with a patient or client. There's only so much judgment you can 'train' or 'coach' .... I don't know that I would ever be confident in her again, so I would never hire her and I would certainly have fired her just like her practice did.

[The pediatrician/child comparison] does [hold up] in many people's eyes

Yes, but the point was that it should not hold up in YOUR eyes. You should know better, as someone with an interest in veterinary medicine. In fact it is not a good comparison. It definitely is true that there are many laypeople who may view it as a good comparison. But there are many laypeople out there who think not vaccinating their kid is a good move, too, which is equally as stupid. Yes, we need to be wary of public opinion (even when it's wrong). But you the (future) veterinarian shouldn't be promoting an inappropriate comparison.
 
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She shot an owned pet in the top of the head with an arrow. Then she bragged about it. The end.

Anything else is superfluous to debate.

Hunting. Right.

I'm not going to be the person that jumps to assuming she knew she was killing an owned cat until someone who actually is down there and has facts at their fingers - as opposed to Internet rants - says that's what happens. And if I ever screw up, I hope to be judged by people with actual facts, not the Internet Court of Law.

And the point of bringing up hunting wasn't to say it was ok because she was just hunting something. It was to say that I don't think "euthanasia" is an appropriate term for what she did. She DID hunt the animal - whether it was a legitimate target or not is a completely different question.

But as an aside, this is kinda chilling: http://www.inquisitr.com/2017999/kr...et-and-killing-animals-according-to-old-blog/
 
I can't really tell if that last bit is genuine, or snark (as in, "that's just like, my opinion, which happens to be the AVMA's opinion"). If snark ... meh, not useful. I mean, obviously your opinion is just your opinion. Same is true of me.
The point was to lighten up the convo a bit :) because really this is all a bunch of vet students with opinions that are going to differ based on how we interpret things individually.
 
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And the point of bringing up hunting wasn't to say it was ok because she was just hunting something. It was to say that I don't think "euthanasia" is an appropriate term for what she did. She DID hunt the animal - whether it was a legitimate target or not is a completely different question

(Respectfully) I'm not really clear what stance you're trying to defend here. Whether the use of a bow and arrow is an ethical way to end an animal's life? Whether or not she behaved ethically because her actions could be classified as hunting?

Frankly, I think we've all see euthanasias gone bad; the right tools were used, AVMA guidelines were followed and yet for whatever reason, it was not the peaceful end that was intended. Similarly, in the right hands, something that seems less than humane (cervical dislocation, bow hunting) can result in a quick, humane death but is simply aesthetically displeasing. The cat may have died instantly and painlessly. Think of all the animals (and kids!) that are left to die in hot cars every year - a far more horrific death, in my humble opinion. And yet where's the outrage over that?
 
I'm not going to be the person that jumps to assuming she knew she was killing an owned cat until someone who actually is down there and has facts at their fingers - as opposed to Internet rants - says that's what happens. And if I ever screw up, I hope to be judged by people with actual facts, not the Internet Court of Law.

And the point of bringing up hunting wasn't to say it was ok because she was just hunting something. It was to say that I don't think "euthanasia" is an appropriate term for what she did. She DID hunt the animal - whether it was a legitimate target or not is a completely different question.

But as an aside, this is kinda chilling: http://www.inquisitr.com/2017999/kr...et-and-killing-animals-according-to-old-blog/

That is kind of chilling.

I think the point you brought up before is very accurate. If this had just been some random ol' Texas "hillbilly" it wouldn't be getting near the amount of attention and "outrage" that it is getting. It is getting this kind of attention because she is veterinarian and because of peoples' perceived expectations of a veterinarian. Which means, how would people react if a vet posted a picture of a deer they legally bow-hunted? Let's say they don't post the insensitive, arrogant caption, just the picture? I don't think there would be much, if any, outrage to that.

I am not saying what this vet did was right, she definitely lacked judgement and is going to be looking at probably never practicing vet med again. But what is making this a "big deal" is that she is 1. A vet and 2. It was a cat, not a deer. and 3. It might have been someone's pet... if any one or two of the above were different, it most likely wouldn't be such "big news".
 
(Respectfully) I'm not really clear what stance you're trying to defend here. Whether the use of a bow and arrow is an ethical way to end an animal's life? Whether or not she behaved ethically because her actions could be classified as hunting?

I'm just pointing out what I see as inconsistencies in the general outrage. People are calling her a murderer. That's not true, because murder doesn't apply to animals. People are saying it was cruel. I'm saying I'm not certain that's true, because I don't know Texas law. People are saying that killing the cat with a bow is cruel - but if that's true shouldn't bow-hunting be considered cruel?

There's just lots of inconsistency to the outrage because it's a) a vet, and b) a cat. But if you step back from the emotional reaction, a lot of what people are saying about her is not substantiated (at least, not YET). Her incredibly poor judgment IS substantiated (in my opinion), just by virtue of her post and comments.

I'm trying to defend the stance of saying that we should describe what she did accurately based on what we know. We shouldn't call it murder, as some people - including vets - have done. Etc.

Anyway, I have an unpopular viewpoint because I'm not jumping to outraged condemnation because I think due process is a real thing and I think things get taken WAY out of context on the Internet. I get that. I'll shut up now. I regret having spoken up.
 
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I'm just pointing out what I see as inconsistencies in the general outrage. People are calling her a murderer. That's not true, because murder doesn't apply to animals. People are saying it was cruel. I'm saying I'm not certain that's true, because I don't know Texas law. People are saying that killing the cat with a bow is cruel - but if that's true shouldn't bow-hunting be considered cruel?

There's just lots of inconsistency to the outrage because it's a) a vet, and b) a cat. But if you step back from the emotional reaction, a lot of what people are saying about her is not substantiated (at least, not YET). Her incredibly poor judgment IS substantiated (in my opinion), just by virtue of her post and comments.

I'm trying to defend the stance of saying that we should describe what she did accurately based on what we know. We shouldn't call it murder, as some people - including vets - have done. Etc.

Anyway, I have an unpopular viewpoint because I'm not jumping to outraged condemnation because I think due process is a real thing and I think things get taken WAY out of context on the Internet. I get that. I'll shut up now. I regret having spoken up.

I don't think you have an unpopular viewpoint. I agree with everything you said.
 
Anyway, I have an unpopular viewpoint because I'm not jumping to outraged condemnation because I think due process is a real thing and I think things get taken WAY out of context on the Internet. I get that. I'll shut up now. I regret having spoken up.

Not at all saying I disagree with your assessment, just trying to clarify the argument being made :thumbup:
 
Anyway, I have an unpopular viewpoint because I'm not jumping to outraged condemnation because I think due process is a real thing and I think things get taken WAY out of context on the Internet. I get that. I'll shut up now. I regret having spoken up.
It can certainly feel that way but you already know I pretty much agree with you.
 
I don't expect she'll face any criminal charges based on Texas law - it says here that "Archery and crossbows are lawful for non-protected nongame animals". I don't think it's been confirmed yet that the cat was owned...in which case I don't think Texas animal cruelty laws even apply, as they do not extend to feral cats (there is precedent for this).

ETA: If it does turn out that the cat belonged to those people, I wonder if it will be taken into account that she thought it was feral. Otherwise, unless she could prove that the cat was attacking another animal on her property, she would be in trouble.
 
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I'm just pointing out what I see as inconsistencies in the general outrage. People are calling her a murderer. That's not true, because murder doesn't apply to animals. People are saying it was cruel. I'm saying I'm not certain that's true, because I don't know Texas law. People are saying that killing the cat with a bow is cruel - but if that's true shouldn't bow-hunting be considered cruel?

There's just lots of inconsistency to the outrage because it's a) a vet, and b) a cat. But if you step back from the emotional reaction, a lot of what people are saying about her is not substantiated (at least, not YET). Her incredibly poor judgment IS substantiated (in my opinion), just by virtue of her post and comments.

I'm trying to defend the stance of saying that we should describe what she did accurately based on what we know. We shouldn't call it murder, as some people - including vets - have done. Etc.

Anyway, I have an unpopular viewpoint because I'm not jumping to outraged condemnation because I think due process is a real thing and I think things get taken WAY out of context on the Internet. I get that. I'll shut up now. I regret having spoken up.

I don't think your viewpoint is unpopular. Having a discussion of what happened in a legal sense, and not just an ethical and moral sense, is important. There's an opportunity to explore whether or not the current laws are in line with public viewpoint and, if they aren't, an opportunity to change them. Unfortunately, animal cruelty laws in Texas don't protect strays. There was a case in Waco where a homeless cat was beaten to death with a baseball bat, and the court ruled that it was not protected under animal cruelty laws because it was a stray. Given the amount of public outrage over Lindsey's actions, maybe it's time for the state of Texas to expand the definition of animals protected under cruelty laws. If people are aware that what Lindsey did was actually legal in their state, then they can direct their outrage towards something that might actually make a difference.
 
ETA: If it does turn out that the cat belonged to those people, I wonder if it will be taken into account that she thought it was feral. Otherwise, unless she could prove that the cat was attacking another animal on her property, she would be in trouble.

Yep. If she can prove that she intended to kill a feral cat (not protected), and not an owned cat, she might have an argument. But then, what's the burden there? What is a reasonable precaution to make sure that the animal was indeed un-owned? As a veterinarian, I think her standard of care would be much higher than the general public.
 
edit: wrote a long response. decided i didn't want to be argumentative.

Summary: I don't really agree (with LIS).... let's leave it at that.
 
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I feel like it would have been easy enough for her to distinguish whether the cat was neutered or a tomcat after she shot it, assuming she knows cat anatomy.

I don't know her, but I hate her and don't care if she loses her license, about her livelihood or about her stupid feelings or her stupid life. How's that for being judgy?
 
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T
looking at texas law, I'm not certain she did break the law. Though we are focusing on the animal being a cat, does it change things if it were a wild rabbit or deer that was a general pest and destroying her backyard? I also have to question if there was abuse/suffering as it looked like a very clean shot. So I don't think I'd compare this to a pediatrician abusing a child. It's apples and oranges. What I do think is that she showed remarkable lack of judgement in posting the picture and her subsequent comments on the picture. That lack of judgement would make me not want to hire her, personally.
This woman violated an oath period. In my eyes she is not deserving of her coat, license, or the privilege that is practicing veterinary medicine.
 
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T

This woman violated an oath period. In my eyes she is not deserving of her coat, license, or the privilege that is practicing veterinary medicine.
I think we should probably wait to hear her side of the story. Since all we have are facebook posts...
 
once upon a time, i bought ice cream and forgot to put it away for hours...:( hopefully the freezer now fixes it, although it will be crystally for sure. sigh.
 
So, it's actually possible that she did break the law, as cats fall under "domestic living creatures." Sorry if someone already posted this.

"Section 42.09 "Cruelty to Livestock Animals" and 42.09(2) "Cruelty of Non-Livestock Animals" of the Texas Health and Safety Code prohibits a person from intentionally, knowingly or recklessly cruelly treating an animal. The following actions define cruel punishment:

  1. Torturing an animal
  2. Failing to provide food, care or shelter
  3. Abandoning an animal
  4. Transporting or confining an animal in a cruel manner
  5. Killing, seriously injuring or poisoning an animal
  6. Causing an animal to fight with another
  7. Using a live animal as a lure in a dog race
  8. Tripping a horse
  9. Injuring an animal belonging to another person
  10. Seriously overworking an animal."
As far as I know, this applies to feral dogs and cats too, since the only animals excluded from protection are "circus animals, wild animals and animals used in experiments." Unless she can prove the cat was causing damage/harm...but not even sure she'd have a case then. She's been questioned today (?) or will be questioned by police sometime this week. I guess we'll see what happens...
 
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I think we should probably wait to hear her side of the story. Since all we have are facebook posts...
What could her side of her story possibly be ? The picture and her own twisted words are very explanatory already.
 
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So, it's actually possible that she did break the law, as cats fall under "domestic living creatures." Sorry if someone already posted this.

"Section 42.09 "Cruelty to Livestock Animals" and 42.09(2) "Cruelty of Non-Livestock Animals" of the Texas Health and Safety Code prohibits a person from intentionally, knowingly or recklessly cruelly treating an animal. The following actions define cruel punishment:

  1. Torturing an animal
  2. Failing to provide food, care or shelter
  3. Abandoning an animal
  4. Transporting or confining an animal in a cruel manner
  5. Killing, seriously injuring or poisoning an animal
  6. Causing an animal to fight with another
  7. Using a live animal as a lure in a dog race
  8. Tripping a horse
  9. Injuring an animal belonging to another person
  10. Seriously overworking an animal."
As far as I know, this applies to feral dogs and cats too, since the only animals excluded from protection are "circus animals, wild animals and animals used in experiments." Unless she can prove the cat was causing damage/harm...but not even sure she'd have a case then. She's been questioned today (?) or will be questioned by police sometime this week. I guess we'll see what happens...
I do wonder about how far the law extends though. Like Gemgrrrl pointed out earlier, there was a case where the judge decided that a feral cat was not protected by the animal cruelty laws since it was not owned...and the basis of the Texas laws seems to be ownership.
 
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What could her side of her story possibly be ? The picture and her own twisted words are very explanatory already.
The fact that you have already condemned this person speaks volumes. There is a reason we have due process.

1. She truly thought the cat was feral and the feral cat was damaging her own animals or property
2. some have suggested photoshopping or a hoax - perhaps someone hacked her account. I'm not saying that's the case but the least we should do is hear what she has to say before condemning her completely.

Regardless of anything else, I think this shows incredibly poor judgment and I don't doubt that she will have trouble finding any veterinary employment. Wishing her bodily harm and death is an extreme reaction and problematic in it's own right.
 
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Yes, but she wasn't euthanizing the animal. A much closer definition of what she was doing is hunting.

Are you suggesting veterinarians that are hunting should only hunt using AVMA's acceptable methods of euthanasia; else they're being cruel? Or are you suggesting veterinarians shouldn't hunt?

To call it euthanasia is to imply that she was 'treating' the animal, because euthanasia is a medical procedure we administer under certain circumstances to an animal. This wasn't euthanasia. The cat was not a patient of hers. Since it wasn't euthanasia, there's no reason to think that it should be limited to methods considered acceptable euthanasia.

I simply can't accept that you're going to call it euthanasia unless you're going to call hunting euthanasia. It makes no sense.

I actually read today that Tiger, the pet cat that was likely killed here, was in fact a patient at the veterinary clinic for which she worked. And why she would ever think that particular cat was feral is beyond me - I have taken care of many feral/stray cats for rescue groups over the years and I have never seen a feral cat look that well fed or have such clean fur. Feral cats are loaded with both ectoparasites and endoparasites. Their fur is dull and any white spots are usually gray to yellow in color, and they are usually extremely thin, likely from a combination of simple starvation and the effect of their parasite load. They do not look like this cat. She just called it feral in an attempt to justify what she had done. I think even she knew that holding up a cat by an arrow through its head and saying how happy she was that she killed the neighbor's pet cat wouldn't go over well. I live in a suburb and have at least 5 of my neighbors' cats wandering through my backyard on a daily basis, trying to catch my fat squirrels. It would never occur to me to kill them for that. And I would consider any veterinarian who would think about doing so to have some serious mental issues going on.
 
So, it's actually possible that she did break the law, as cats fall under "domestic living creatures." Sorry if someone already posted this.

"Section 42.09 "Cruelty to Livestock Animals" and 42.09(2) "Cruelty of Non-Livestock Animals" of the Texas Health and Safety Code prohibits a person from intentionally, knowingly or recklessly cruelly treating an animal. The following actions define cruel punishment:

  1. Torturing an animal
  2. Failing to provide food, care or shelter
  3. Abandoning an animal
  4. Transporting or confining an animal in a cruel manner
  5. Killing, seriously injuring or poisoning an animal
  6. Causing an animal to fight with another
  7. Using a live animal as a lure in a dog race
  8. Tripping a horse
  9. Injuring an animal belonging to another person
  10. Seriously overworking an animal."
As far as I know, this applies to feral dogs and cats too, since the only animals excluded from protection are "circus animals, wild animals and animals used in experiments." Unless she can prove the cat was causing damage/harm...but not even sure she'd have a case then. She's been questioned today (?) or will be questioned by police sometime this week. I guess we'll see what happens...
Do feral cats fall under wild animals, or would they still be considered "domestic?" I'm under the impression that she honestly thought she was killing a feral cat. Not trying to justify her actions, but I think a feral cat might be a loophole in that law.
 
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