Religion in medicine...

[Cat's Meow]

What role should religion play, if any, in medicine?

Should I feel free to discuss God with patients? In Israel, where everyone is Jew, this is allowable...but how about here in the US?

Thanks for any feedback!

God bless,

CM

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[drguy22]

while you must respect the patients religion, no matter what it is, you must also refrain from preaching your religion to them....

 

[Dr Turninkoff]

What role should religion play, if any, in medicine?

Should I feel free to discuss God with patients? In Israel, where everyone is Jew, this is allowable...but how about here in the US?

Thanks for any feedback!

God bless,

CM

-everyone isn't a jew in israel. you should know that. didn't you live there?

-i once was observing a surgery in a red state and before the patient was sedated, she asked the surgeon, "Have you been saved by Jesus Christ?". He replied, uhhuh, the anesthesiologist cranked up the juice and that was the end of the discussion.

 

[Eiko]

What role should religion play, if any, in medicine?

Should I feel free to discuss God with patients? In Israel, where everyone is Jew, this is allowable...but how about here in the US?

Thanks for any feedback!

God bless,

CM

It depends on the hospital and the doctor involved.

Some hospitals encourage patients to pray and seek the blessing of a religious figure such as a bishop, priest, missionary, monk, etc... just for the mere fact that strong religious beliefs have been correlated with lower levels of stress and higher levels of healing.

Other hospitals and physicians shun the idea of anything beyond what they can see, hear, smell, touch, etc. The refusal to believe anything beyond the treatments involved in the healing process is quite common.

Then there are those that just simply believe.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

What role should religion play, if any, in medicine?

Should I feel free to discuss God with patients? In Israel, where everyone is Jew, this is allowable...but how about here in the US?

Thanks for any feedback!

God bless,

CM

i think it's ok to discuss it while respecting the patient's beliefs; the dr should take the cue from the patient.

 

[Biscuit799]

I think that it is perfectly fine to use your religious beliefs as a basis to provide care. However, I think that in doing so, it should be explicitly stated before the patient begins their course of treatment (i.e. a christian marriage therapist vs. a "regular" therapist). As long as the care provider is up front about their religios convictions playing a role in care, then there shouldn't be a problem.

 

[kwakster928]

if your patient and you share religion and religious values, then i guess you can open up the discussion. but you have to find out what they really believe first. religion can be a extremely valuable resource to the patients when they are their tough times. but in my humble opinion, if you and your patient do not share same religion or religious values, you cannot impose your belief on the patient nor have bias due to the difference. treat eveyone same, but if you find somethings in common, perhaps you can enhnace your care for that particular patient via religion.

 

[Cat's Meow]

-everyone isn't a jew in israel. you should know that. didn't you live there?

-i once was observing a surgery in a red state and before the patient was sedated, she asked the surgeon, "Have you been saved by Jesus Christ?". He replied, uhhuh, the anesthesiologist cranked up the juice and that was the end of the discussion.

In Israel, it's basically all Jews, with very few Muslims. We keep them out of Israel and in the Occupied territories.

But even in Israel, Muslims are second class citizens and do not have access to many Jewish doctors. Really sad

 

[Cat's Meow]

i think it's ok to discuss it while respecting the patient's beliefs; the dr should take the cue from the patient.

Would you be comfortable, for example, if I discussed religion with you as a patient?

 

[fielight]

personally, i think none... although religion is a part of a patient's Social History and can influence the course of treatment.

 

[Medikit]

Just replace "God" with "Frank" and it should be passible.

 

[leechy]

Well, whatever your personal philosophy is - whether it's religious or not - will play an internal psychological role during your journey in medicine. With regards to discussing it with patients, I agree with taking the cue from the patient. If they bring it up and start discussing it, then you could share your own views. I wouldnt' bring it up out of the blue though, other than to say, "And we have pastors / priests /etc if you'd like to see them".

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Would you be comfortable, for example, if I discussed religion with you as a patient?

If i started talking about God and the afterlife, i think it's ok as long as you listen to what i am saying and don't inflict your beliefs on me; just acknowledge it and expand upon it perhaps.

 

[Rendar5]

In Israel, it's basically all Jews, with very few Muslims. We keep them out of Israel and in the Occupied territories.

But even in Israel, Muslims are second class citizens and do not have access to many Jewish doctors. Really sad

1.2 million people out of 6 million is very few?

 

[jammin06]

My eyes lit up when i saw this thread. I'm currently workin on a religious studies double major along with my bioengineering major as well as being pre-med. My theory behind pursing a the religious studies major is that regardless of how religious I am, the truth remains taht a large majority of society places some faith in some greater being, whether it be God, Allah, or just having faith. I feel that by studying these religions, it may in essensce help me have a better understanding of where the patient is coming from and ultimlately just help me fully understand the person that i'm treating and not just the disease they have.

(just practicing for the answer i might give in an interview if asked the question)

 

[velo]

What role should religion play, if any, in medicine?

Should I feel free to discuss God with patients? In Israel, where everyone is Jew, this is allowable...but how about here in the US?

Thanks for any feedback!

God bless,

CM

If they bring religion up....maybe some....

I think of it this way, we were getting a lecture from an attending on the subject and he brought up the common situation where a family asks the doctor to pray with them. He told us how he handles it and how a colleague handles it, I think the two approaches represent each extreme of the acceptable spectrum...

At most you should say:
"I'd be happy to join you in moment of silence"
this way you won't inadvertantly be involved in some religious thing you don't want to be...like they turn out to be snake handlers or something...and if you like you can just take a minute to think about whatever you want...

At least you should say:
"You guys go ahead and pray, I'm going to scrub in"

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

It depends on the context. If my patient is having an appendectomy, then a I probably wouldn't bring religion into it.

On the other hand, if I am performing heart surgery on the patient, I would pray to God for help and wisdom during the surgery. I would also let all of my patients know before the surgery what I intend to do.

If the patient is terminally ill with cancer, I would certainly tell him what I believe; the way I see it, nothing is more important than God and our relationship with Him, and it is no more crucial to discuss this than when a person is at his deathbed.

If the person rejects me, fine, then I won't insist, but I would certainly tell him what I believe in a kind and loving way, regardless of his particular beliefs.

(To Mr. Turninkoff, please don't politicize this (i.e. red state); people believe what they believe regardless of political orientation.)

 

[velo]

If the patient is terminally ill with cancer, I would certainly tell him what I believe; the way I see it, nothing is more important than God and our relationship with Him, and it is no more crucial to discuss this than when a person is at his deathbed.

If the person rejects me, fine, then I won't insist, but I would certainly tell him what I believe in a kind and loving way, regardless of his particular beliefs.

oh please don't do that. The patient doesn't give a flying f***, nor should he, what your personal beliefs are. They don't matter. The only thing that matters to the patient are his beliefs. If he finds what you described comforting, then by all means do it. But if the patient isn't interested, don't make him spend his last days getting proselytized to by a man he came to for professional medical help....jeez....

 

[Cat's Meow]

1.2 million people out of 6 million is very few?

one of six is few, yes.

 

[Cat's Meow]

oh please don't do that. The patient doesn't give a flying f***, nor should he, what your personal beliefs are. They don't matter. The only thing that matters to the patient are his beliefs. If he finds what you described comforting, then by all means do it. But if the patient isn't interested, don't make him spend his last days getting proselytized to by a man he came to for professional medical help....jeez....

true

thanks for the honest words.

 

[Rendar5]

1 in 6 is what most people would consider a sizeable minority. You first said none, then said very few, now few. I just think it's strange that you're misleading (whether intentional or not), the very sizeable portion of Israeli Arabs, which is why I'm even bringing this up. Yes, I know that a lot of them are treated like second-class citizens (before this topic strays), so I'm not even really arguing with you.

I just get wary whenever I hear anything related to the mid-east which sounds like propaganda in either direction, and the "Israel is all Jews" misconception is often involved in the anti-Israeli propaganda I've seen (usually by non-Jews, though).

Anyway, on topic, religion is very important to most people. If the doctor can discuss religion in a constructive way with patients, I think it's a great idea. As long as this subject isn't broached in a way that makes the patient uncomfortable, for example if it comes on as a conversion attempt or an otherwise attempt to influence the patient's religious views.

 

[Premedtomed]

Would you be comfortable, for example, if I discussed religion with you as a patient?

This may sound weird but to me you are my Jewish friend (I am a Hindu)
So it's ok
But I would never.

 

[Rendar5]

one of six is few, yes.

1.2/6 = 1/5 sorry. just realized the error. Irrelevant, but don't want to be called on it.

 

[Cat's Meow]

1 in 6 is what most people would consider a sizeable minority. You first said none, then said very few, now few. I just think it's strange that you're misleading (whether intentional or not), the very sizeable portion of Israeli Arabs, which is why I'm even bringing this up. Yes, I know that a lot of them are treated like second-class citizens (before this topic strays), so I'm not even really arguing with you.

I just get wary whenever I hear anything related to the mid-east which sounds like propaganda in either direction, and the "Israel is all Jews" misconception is often involved in the anti-Israeli propaganda I've seen (usually by non-Jews, though).

Anyway, on topic, religion is very important to most people. If the doctor can discuss religion in a constructive way with patients, I think it's a great idea. As long as this subject isn't broached in a way that makes the patient uncomfortable, for example if it comes on as a conversion attempt or an otherwise attempt to influence the patient's religious views.

I don't think that I said "none." If I did, I was wrong.

And I was not talking about Israeli Arabs--I was talking about Israeli Muslims (hence, the religion in medicine thread). Within Israel, Muslims are very few in number. I think the 1 in 6 statistic applies to the proportion of Israeli Arabs, who are not necessarily Muslim (many are Jewish and Christian).

Sometimes I misspeak, but I don't want to mislead.

To the main point: I know that if a doctor started speaking to me about Jesus Christ as Savior, I might be uncomfortable...but a conversation about "God" would be fine.

 

[Rendar5]

I don't think that I said "none." If I did, I was wrong.

And I was not talking about Israeli Arabs--I was talking about Israeli Muslims (hence, the religion in medicine thread). Within Israel, Muslims are very few in number. I think the 1 in 6 statistic applies to the proportion of Israeli Arabs, who are not necessarily Muslim (many are Jewish and Christian).

Sometimes I misspeak, but I don't want to mislead.

To the main point: I know that if a doctor started speaking to me about Jesus Christ as Savior, I might be uncomfortable...but a conversation about "God" would be fine.

EDIT: probably last response on the off-topic topic. just wanted to admit where I was wrong.
damn, I got called on the other thing I overlooked. You're right. Not all Israeli Arabs are Muslims. But it's 1 in 5 Israelis are Arab, not 1 in 6. I'll check btselem or some other site to be sure, though. As for saying none, it was the implication of saying that in Israel everyone was Jewish.

 

[NeuroChicMD]

I saw something on the news last night that made me think of this, so I decided to chime in... I understand that whatever your religious beliefs are, they will most likely have some role in your decisions and your practices as a doctor. But I do think that there is a line that should not be crossed. As an example, the story I saw on the news last night was about a pharmacist in Louisiana (I think) who refused to fill prescriptions for birth control for women and refused to carry any condoms in his pharmacy based on his religious belief that contraceptives should never be used. I have heard similar stories about "pro-life" doctors refusing to refer patients to abortion clinics. Examples such as this are why I am very wary about religion's role in medicine. As long as you can simultaneously practice your religion AND good medicine, it is fine. But don't infringe on your patient's rights because of a religious belief you have.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

I personally don't agree with this pharmacist, but if his pharmacy is privately run, and unless there are some laws against it, I think it's up to him what medications he would stock.

As for referring to an abortion, I think that's entirely fine. If you truly believe your faith, it consumes your entire being, shaping your worldview. If you believe abortion is murder, you don't refer people on how perform this kind of murder, just as you wouldn't in the case of an adult (which would be legally recognized murder). If she wants to perform an abortion, let her find another doctor. In fact, I would go even further, and stress the other viable options available to her.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

A second point, why is everyone so offended by being told about another religion? I for one, would have no problem if a Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Mormon, etc. explained to me his faith and why he believes it, even at my deathbed. I might go over why I do NOT believe that, or I might actually get convinced into believing (however, that is VERY unlikely). But I would never be offended, because there really is nothing offended about. I am confident enough in my faith, that there is no reason to worry or fear being told about another.

 

[runner1979]

One of my interviewers told me about an applicant he interviewed in the past few years who was against blood transfusions for religious beliefs--and apparently she felt there was no medically necessary case to ever offer blood transfusions. He then continued to ask me how I would approach this as an admissions committee member and then as a colleague....[I gave him some serious blank face treatment on this one].

I've thought a lot about this topic since the interview that day. I think we, as individuals, are all entitled to our own religious beliefs. However, as physicians, as professionals, we owe it to our patients to inform them every medical option available so that they may make the treatment decision that is best for them and most alligned with thier own personal belief system. While we, as the physician, may champion one treatment over another, ultimately, the patient needs to be comfortable with the course of action. And they may need to retain a different physician if it is a service that you don't offer.

Regarding the specific case of my interview question--I think when a physician and if each patient consents to her philosophy at the start of preventative care/treatment, then it should be ok. Afterall, she can't be the only one with these beliefs. The gray area for me on this one was that many times people only seek treatment when it is too late or an emergency--the very cases when blood transfusions may be required. In this instance, an individual of this religion would not be able to render adequate care by US standards. Unless her training/job duties were tailored to specifically avoid this situation while still meeting all licensing requirements, I would have strong reservations about admitting her into a US medical school.

 

[rockstar2525]

A second point, why is everyone so offended by being told about another religion? I for one, would have no problem if a Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Mormon, etc. explained to me his faith and why he believes it, even at my deathbed. I might go over why I do NOT believe that, or I might actually get convinced into believing (however, that is VERY unlikely). But I would never be offended, because there really is nothing offended about. I am confident enough in my faith, that there is no reason to worry or fear being told about another.

I agree that people should be open to hearing new viewpoints, and discussions about religion are a great way to do that. This is true for academic settings, coffeeshop discussions, etc, but I for one DO NOT want to hear some religious prick try to stuff his/her beliefs down my throat when I am about to die. On my deathbed, I would rather spend my last moments saying good-bye to family, friends, and embracing my own set of beliefs before I face the next world, NOT having a debate about your religion vs. mine. As a physician, we are there to provide medical care and TO SERVE the patient. That means that we give the best care possible and then if they want to talk about religion, only then do we do so.

 

[dura]

one of six is few, yes.

I don't know which part of Israel you live in, perhaps a settlement that caters to crazy Americans w/Israeli voting rights, but Israel is not all Jewish (religiously speaking). You forget about the migrant workers populations, the Jewish "atheists", the Christians, the Muslims, etc.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

I agree that people should be open to hearing new viewpoints, and discussions about religion are a great way to do that. This is true for academic settings, coffeeshop discussions, etc, but I for one DO NOT want to hear some religious prick try to stuff his/her beliefs down my throat when I am about to die. On my deathbed, I would rather spend my last moments saying good-bye to family, friends, and embracing my own set of beliefs before I face the next world, NOT having a debate about your religion vs. mine. As a physician, we are there to provide medical care and TO SERVE the patient. That means that we give the best care possible and then if they want to talk about religion, only then do we do so.

"Deathbed" makes it sound worse than it should have sounded. I mean more along the lines of terminally ill patient who will die in a couple of months. I would have NO qualms telling them about my beliefs, because I believe them to be true, and I think this person has a right to know them. As I said before, if the patient refuses and pushes me away, I would certainly not insist: otherwise, many people WANT to hear what another faith says about their situation, and not everyone is so "offended" as people on this forum seem to think.

Carewise, certainly you provide care first and then you may tell them about your faith. But you shouldn't be coerced into doing procedures that you feel are immoral, e.g. abortion, stem-cell therapy, sex-change surgery, etc. And you can't be made to refer them to someone who would do something like that.

 

[W222]

RELIGION HAS NO PLACE IN A PHYSICIAN'S MEDICAL PRACTICE. Frankly it is completely un-ethical to bring up religion with a patient and discuss your own beliefs, even if you share similar beliefs. THAT BEING SAID, it is okay to talk about a person's spiritual beliefs and offer someone they can talk to, ie a priest giving last rights ect. Religion = organized group of people who share the same beliefs and practice in a community. SPIRITUAL BELIEFS = personal feelings about something deeper than themselves and about their personal faith. So if you are Christian and preach to your patients, you are essentially disrespecting any of their personal beliefs and ALSO you open yourself up to lawsuit. If you ask a person about their beliefs and the role it has in their life then that is respecting their beliefs and encouraging their feelings. Again, preaching has no place in medicine and religion has no place in medicine.

 

[rockstar2525]

I would have NO qualms telling them about my beliefs, because I believe them to be true, and I think this person has a right to know them. As I said before, if the patient refuses and pushes me away, I would certainly not insist:

Don't you think you can tell, at least to a large degree, who will be receptive to hearing your thought and beliefs before you start telling them? I mean, you generally know who doesn't want to hear any of it before you even bring up the subject. If you are only bringing up the subject with those that you think may be receptive, and are still respecting them after you do so, that is "sharing" you religion. If you know someone doens't want to hear any of it, and insist on talking about it anyway, that is where you cross into "stuffing" your beliefs and that crosses a line into a territory where physicians shouldn't go. There are plenty of religious fanatics on street corners to do that job...

 

[lorelei]

I think religion can be very important in medicine. I'm a non-believer myself, but I think that whether or not anyone's particular religious beliefs are "right" they are clearly very important. Many people find comfort and strength in prayer, trust in their God to heal them, and look to their beliefs to guide them to do the right thing. (Personally, though I don't believe, I'm very comforted by religious rituals.)

As a rule I wouldn't share my lack of belief with a patient, since first it's irrelevant and second I wouldn't want them to feel defensive or uncomfortable. What I would do is encourage them to take advantage of their own belief system, whatever it is. It's a part of someone's support system, just as family and friends and hobbies are.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

RELIGION HAS NO PLACE IN A PHYSICIAN'S MEDICAL PRACTICE. Frankly it is completely un-ethical to bring up religion with a patient and discuss your own beliefs, even if you share similar beliefs. THAT BEING SAID, it is okay to talk about a person's spiritual beliefs and offer someone they can talk to, ie a priest giving last rights ect. Religion = organized group of people who share the same beliefs and practice in a community. SPIRITUAL BELIEFS = personal feelings about something deeper than themselves and about their personal faith. So if you are Christian and preach to your patients, you are essentially disrespecting any of their personal beliefs and ALSO you open yourself up to lawsuit. If you ask a person about their beliefs and the role it has in their life then that is respecting their beliefs and encouraging their feelings. Again, preaching has no place in medicine and religion has no place in medicine.

I don't know where you came up with this notion. If you weren't aware, "medicine" has already intruded upon the religious domain when the psychologist and even the psychiatrist took over the role of the religious figure. Counselling based in faith in a higher being has been replaced with pseudohumanistic empty psychobabble and mind-deranging drugs.

Preaching to another person may indeed be disrespecting to that person's beliefs - and so what? I am tired of a PC culture that essentially eliminates all truly meaningful discourse, such as "why am I here?" "what does my life mean?" "is there anything after death?" - which are entirely normal questions for a person that is seeing death face to face (e.g. a terminally ill patient) - and has entirely reduced it to "quality of life," drugging the person so they have no awareness of themselves, "helping them take the long journey" (to where is the logical question!), etc. It is all meaningless, and in my opinion, every doctor, as a human being, and regardless of his religion (or if he has none), has a right to and should explain to a patient what he believes and why. If the patient is unreceptive, fine, then he shouldn't insist (as I said before); if the patient is interested, then by all means he should continue.

A doctor is placed in an unusually potent position: as the one who helps bring life into the world, as the one who makes every attempt to preserve and support it, and as the person that oftentimes is by the deathbed of the patient. It would be insane and immoral for him NOT to discuss deeper issues (if the patient is receptive, of course) that may be of far greater use to the patient than drugs, in terms of recovery or making peace with death.

 

[W222]

A Physician's role is first and foremost to CARE for his patients NOT preach to them. This being said, it is completely disrespectful to preach you faith to a patient, but allowing them to express themselves is completely fine and should be encouraged. ALSO, it is wrong to not refer a woman for an abortion just because you dont believe in it. You, as a physician, are not involved in that decision. Older doctors are from the "Physician as a father figure/God figure days" when what the doctor said was the only option and things were done with or without the patient being completely informed. Medicine has come a long way and now its the patient who makes decisions, as well it should be.

 

[Albert Einstein]

.

 

[jonb12997]

You, as a physician, are not involved in that decision.

I'm not sure I agree with this statement... we as physicians have our own morals and responsibilities that we have a right to stand up for. If I don't think that a particular drug is what the patient needs, then I don't have to prescribe it to them, even if that is what they really want. similarly, with abortion, if I don't think an abortion is what they need or should have(because of my own reasons), then I don't have to "prescribe" it to them by referring them out. It is their decision, and if the patient wants to go to another doctor for the drug, then that's their choice. I'm not going to stop them from leaving. Likewise, if the patient wants an abortion, I'm not going to to stop them from going to another doctor to get a referral, I'm just not going to encourage it myself.
I'm not going to stop them or openly discourage it, I'm just not going to encourage it. They have a right to their opinion, and I have a right to my opinion. I'm not going to fault them for their opinion, but they also don't have a right to fault me for my opinion either.

Back on the topic of the post. Religion should play a part ONLY if the patient wants it to. My father is a minister, and the hospital he goes to visit people at have a place right in the chart for him to list his visits. However, the last thing I feel a patient needs when they're very sick is someone shoving their personal beliefs down their throat. I think they have enough on their mind to consider major ethical and moral issues.

 

[jazger]

A second point, why is everyone so offended by being told about another religion? I for one, would have no problem if a Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Mormon, etc. explained to me his faith and why he believes it, even at my deathbed. I might go over why I do NOT believe that, or I might actually get convinced into believing (however, that is VERY unlikely). But I would never be offended, because there really is nothing offended about. I am confident enough in my faith, that there is no reason to worry or fear being told about another.

I also have no problem learning about or discussing religion. What offends me is when people assume you are of a certain faith. I was sick at work (a sandwich shop) a few years ago and this customer asked me if I was feeling bad. When I said yes, he grabs my hand and says "Let us pray. Lord Jesus, please heal this sister...etc." I was like WTF?!? Completely inappropriate. And it would be even more so coming from a doctor.

 

[W222]

Frankly, some people are not getting my arguement. RELIGION ie, I am a Christian doctor so I am going to stress the Christian world view to my patients, even though I practice in an area that represents a number of religions. THAT IS FRANKLY WRONG, BOTH LEGALY AND ETHICALLY. Atleast according to all my med school professors it is wrong. Now, discussing meaning of life and a person's role and search for meaning is all well within the bounds of good practice. You overstep your role when you preach to patients, YOU WILL LOSE PATIENTS DOING THIS AND POSSIBLY OPEN YOURSELF UP TO A WHOLE WORLD OF TROUBLE.

Now, you personally may not believe in abortion. BUT preventing a patient from getting an abortion by not refering one is wrong. Frankly, its disturbing that people would do this and completely unethical. You can tell the patient that you think they should consider other options but refusing to refer one is also dangerous. SAY FOR INSTANCE: you have patient that has a heart condition which, if she carries this child to term, puts her life at serious risk and the chance of death is extremely high. Well, if you refuse you have essentially endangered this person's life and are legally open to malpractice suits in the event of her death. This is the truth, like it or not.

 

[DOJDEE]

I saw something on the news last night that made me think of this, so I decided to chime in... I understand that whatever your religious beliefs are, they will most likely have some role in your decisions and your practices as a doctor. But I do think that there is a line that should not be crossed. As an example, the story I saw on the news last night was about a pharmacist in Louisiana (I think) who refused to fill prescriptions for birth control for women and refused to carry any condoms in his pharmacy based on his religious belief that contraceptives should never be used. I have heard similar stories about "pro-life" doctors refusing to refer patients to abortion clinics. Examples such as this are why I am very wary about religion's role in medicine. As long as you can simultaneously practice your religion AND good medicine, it is fine. But don't infringe on your patient's rights because of a religious belief you have.

i agree with that doc and pharmdoc... it is common for patients to go to other docs for second opinions on things, so why not with these guys?? give me a break... i will not refer anyone to an abortion clinic EVER. the ONLY way that i would ever condone such a thing is if the baby is ALREADY dead and is threatening the life of the mother. that is it. dont you remember??? - "first do no harm"... patients rights??? bull****. you would at the same time have to convince me that it is the patient's right to kill themselves... to me, this is the same thing... religion or not, you are killing something - you are FIRST causing harm instead of first causing NO harm...

 

[jonb12997]

ok, now the heart problems with carrying a baby is a whole other issue... if we're just talking, opps, I am completely healthy and I just don't want this baby, that to me is a a completely different issue than someone's life being in danger of carrying the child to term...

 

[W222]

WOW, sounds like some of you are pretty backwards and it scares me. FRANKLY, discouraging a patient who may die without an abortion from not getting the medical care they need is completely negligent. If you say "Oh, the bady and you will be fine." and she dies, you will be in court within days following her death. Aside from the fear of litigation, its just wrong to deny medical treatment even if you dont agree with said treatment. For instance, chemo to someone who has essentially no chance of survival. If they want it, you must do it.

SIDE NOTE: the recently elected Republican Senator from Oklahoma is an OB/GYN. He advocates the death penalty for abortions, even in the case of rape which he see as "a convenient abortion" - that is appalling. If you have been raped and dont want the child, why should you be forced to live with that. People say, ohh just give it up for adoption. One problem with that is the healing for the rape victum only starts 9 months to a year after she is raped, rather than immediatly. ALSO- this Doc/Senator has performed two abortions himself in medical emergencies. FIGURE THAT ONE OUT.

 

[velo]

If she wants to perform an abortion, let her find another doctor. In fact, I would go even further, and stress the other viable options available to her.

you are legally required to refer her to another physician if you refuse to preform the procedure

A second point, why is everyone so offended by being told about another religion?

Because I live in America, I've heard of Jesus, you're not telling me anything new here...you're just harrassing me. Is it so hard to believe that I have given the matter a great deal of thought and made a different decision from you? You have a personal relationship with God? that's fantastic! But if its so damn personal why do you feel the need to make it so public?

 

[W222]

JON I completely agree with you. There is no excuse for abortion as a means of birth control. Its disgusting, but the practice should never be outlawed because it does have a medical purpose.

 

[jonb12997]

can we designate between medical emergencies and elective abortions? seems like we all need to get on the same page here so we all know what we're talking about and don't get into another war of posts...

also, maybe this should be moved over to the everyone forum... is there a moderator in the house?

 

[DOJDEE]

WOW, sounds like some of you are pretty backwards and it scares me. FRANKLY, discouraging a patient who may die without an abortion from not getting the medical care they need is completely negligent. If you say "Oh, the bady and you will be fine." and she dies, you will be in court within days following her death. Aside from the fear of litigation, its just wrong to deny medical treatment even if you dont agree with said treatment. For instance, chemo to someone who has essentially no chance of survival. If they want it, you must do it.

SIDE NOTE: the recently elected Republican Senator from Oklahoma is an OB/GYN. He advocates the death penalty for abortions, even in the case of rape which he seems as "a convenient abortion" - that is appalling. If you have been raped and dont want the child, why should you be forced to live with that. People say, ohh just give it up for adoption. One problem with that is the healing for the rape victum only starts 9 months to a year after she is raped, rather than immediatly. ALSO- this Doc/Senator has performed two abortions himself in medical emergencies. FIGURE THAT ONE OUT.

oh gee.. the b-s rape story... look up the stats... what percentage of abortions are because of rape?? are you really gonna hold to the rare occurance theory?? sure something really bad happend to the mother, but why make it even worse by killing her baby??

and NO you do NOT have to give a treatment to a patient jsut because they want it. that is b-s as well. life and death circumstances are different. if the mother is going to die if she continues carrying the kid, then c-section and attempt to keep the kid alive.

why do you forget... "first do no harm"... you want to rush out there and get your hands bloody so bad - go join the army or something...

 

[jonb12997]

JON I completely agree with you. There is no excuse for abortion as a means of birth control. Its disgusting, but the practice should never be outlawed because it does have a medical purpose.

I guess we both should have been a little clearer in the beginning... it looks like we do see pretty much eye to eye on this... glad we got that cleared up

 

[DOJDEE]

A second point, why is everyone so offended by being told about another religion? I for one, would have no problem if a Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Mormon, etc. explained to me his faith and why he believes it, even at my deathbed. I might go over why I do NOT believe that, or I might actually get convinced into believing (however, that is VERY unlikely). But I would never be offended, because there really is nothing offended about. I am confident enough in my faith, that there is no reason to worry or fear being told about another.

dont talk to those ppl unless they bring it up or the situation is asking for it. remember, you cannot - CANNOT make someone believe something. so dont try. its a personal choice between them and God. all you do is shine the light of God. if they want to know more, tell them. if not, dont bother.