Religion in medicine...

[mercaptovizadeh]

You have proven my point exactly. This is what is called condescion; you are saying if I don't believe in your beliefs, I go to hell. Can you see how arrogant you are? In my religous beliefs, "the first will come last and the last will come first." Walk softly when you committ others to hell, because how do you know you are not going to be there?

Not everyone talks about it in this way. If someone asks me the question bluntly, I try to redirect them to the question of sin/salvation and the need for a loving God and savior - rather than "threatening" them with hellfire.

Please do not make inferences about an entire group based on the behavior of so-called "leaders" like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, who are just ridiculous and have NOTHING to do with God or the Messiah.

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[mercaptovizadeh]

I'm not going to say your logic is ******ed...but it definitely rides on the short bus. You don't give a patient a treatment based on an article of faith, you give a treatment based on strong scientific and clinical data. Its not even comparing apples and oranges here...its apples and...I don't even know, but something inorganic....


And come on, "also commands us to spread the message" WE LIVE IN AMERICA! WE GOT THE DAMN MESSAGE, YOU CAN STOP SPREADING NOW! There's a fundemental difference between spreading your message to people who have never heard it, and spreading it to people who have heard it, listened to it, understood it, and not bought it. LEAVE US ALONE!!!!

You would have no idea how many people even here in America, still do not "get" the message - they just have some vague ideas about our beliefs, mostly stereotypes, and it puts them off. It's really sad, actually.

You have perhaps too much confidence in what doctors can do. Regardless, whatever treatment we choose to follow, it should be within the confines of a certain set of ethics/morals that belong to BOTH the doctor AND the patient. If a patient is a Jehovah's Witness and absolutely will NOT have a blood transfusion, then you cannot force it upon them. If a patient wants you to perform an abortion and you will NOT do so under any circumstances, no one can force you to do so. Ultimately, there are many things we cannot remedy, and patients do die, and so it is my duty, as a human being and as a follower of Christ, first and foremost, to tell these people, if they will hear, the truth.

 

[jonb12997]

to tell these people, if they will hear, the truth.

If they will hear, that's the key statement there... sometimes we can't (and shouldn't) do anything but back up and say a silent prayer to ourselves for them...

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Honestly, though. I care neither for so-called "ethics" or for professionalism. My ethics come from God, and if the medical school wants to teach me additional points that fit within that framework (e.g. confidentiality), that's great. But I certainly won't let them tell me that it is unethical to mention Christ, but that it isn't to euthanize or abort or lobotomize a person. Give me a break!

keep up the good work!!

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Not everyone talks about it in this way. If someone asks me the question bluntly, I try to redirect them to the question of sin/salvation and the need for a loving God and savior - rather than "threatening" them with hellfire.

Please do not make inferences about an entire group based on the behavior of so-called "leaders" like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, who are just ridiculous and have NOTHING to do with God or the Messiah.

agreed, and i hope he didn't really think i would tell a patient or anyone for that matter that they were going to hell. I never would.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

I'm not going to say your logic is ******ed...but it definitely rides on the short bus. You don't give a patient a treatment based on an article of faith, you give a treatment based on strong scientific and clinical data. Its not even comparing apples and oranges here...its apples and...I don't even know, but something inorganic....


And come on, "also commands us to spread the message" WE LIVE IN AMERICA! WE GOT THE DAMN MESSAGE, YOU CAN STOP SPREADING NOW! There's a fundemental difference between spreading your message to people who have never heard it, and spreading it to people who have heard it, listened to it, understood it, and not bought it. LEAVE US ALONE!!!!

the point is you don't get it and never will with that attitude.

 

[LiNk]

Abortion is murder, nothing can justify murder (even rape), hence, rape cannot justify abortion.

I respect your opinions. I am curious though, do you support the death penalty? Millions of americans feel we can justify the murder of a murderer. I've met so many people who are pro-life and support the death penalty- contradict much?
30+ states use the death penalty.... this includes MOST of the Bible Belt. Can you explain that?

 

[patzan]

I respect your opinions. I am curious though, do you support the death penalty? Millions of americans feel we can justify the murder of a murderer. I've met so many people who are pro-life and support the death penalty- contradict much?
30+ states use the death penalty.... this includes MOST of the Bible Belt. Can you explain that?

Eye for an eye. Blood for blood.

 

[LiNk]

I mean, if life is so sacred right?

 

[DOJDEE]

I'm not going to say your logic is ******ed...but it definitely rides on the short bus. You don't give a patient a treatment based on an article of faith, you give a treatment based on strong scientific and clinical data. Its not even comparing apples and oranges here...its apples and...I don't even know, but something inorganic....


And come on, "also commands us to spread the message" WE LIVE IN AMERICA! WE GOT THE DAMN MESSAGE, YOU CAN STOP SPREADING NOW! There's a fundemental difference between spreading your message to people who have never heard it, and spreading it to people who have heard it, listened to it, understood it, and not bought it. LEAVE US ALONE!!!!

and the point here is that no one is trying to shove it down YOUR throat but you are still VERY aggitated and upset about some random ppl on a random board talking about hypothetical situations. fun stuff man...

 

[DOJDEE]

I respect your opinions. I am curious though, do you support the death penalty? Millions of americans feel we can justify the murder of a murderer. I've met so many people who are pro-life and support the death penalty- contradict much?
30+ states use the death penalty.... this includes MOST of the Bible Belt. Can you explain that?

i think this is a tricky issue. i do not support it, but i can see how some could. the bible says not to murder someone. so i think that this guy you have locked up is defenseless so to kill him is wrong. but then others say that this guy has murdered other ppl, so he should also be murdered....

the basis of this statement is why we should not be doing abortions... first cause no harm........... lest you shall become the murderer...

 

[LiNk]

i think this is a tricky issue. i do not support it, but i can see how some could. the bible says not to murder someone. so i think that this guy you have locked up is defenseless so to kill him is wrong. but then others say that this guy has murdered other ppl, so he should also be murdered....

the basis of this statement is why we should not be doing abortions... first cause no harm........... lest you shall become the murderer...

But the Bible doesn't allow for you to kill anyone, even in self defense. So to me a religious argument against abortion, while supporting the death penalty, doesn't really make sense, IMHO.

 

[DOJDEE]

But the Bible doesn't allow for you to kill anyone, even in self defense. So to me a religious argument against abortion, while supporting the death penalty, doesn't really make sense, IMHO.

yes, actually it does. it is not wrong to kill, but it is wrong to murder.

 

[LiNk]

yes, actually it does. it is not wrong to kill, but it is wrong to murder.

Well, to my knowledge the New Testament does not allow for killing. If it does, by all means please point me to the passage so I can educate myself. I thought the power to take and give life was solely in God's hands, hence 'turn the other cheek' and all that jazz.

Also, can you expand on the difference between 'killing' and 'murder'? The affected person is just as dead either way.

 

[Long_John]

I don't understand how Cat's Meow hasn't been banned yet, considering others have been banned for being much less obvious baiters.

Cat's Meow is as Jewish as Jerry Falwell. He plays on stereotypes which many love to believe, so it's easy to get caught up on what this fool has to say.

The best analogy I can think of is if some non-Arab takes the name "Mohammed Al-Jafari" and proceeds to write posts like, "Allah! Medical school is so hard I feel like blowing it up!" Of course, all the clever folks will think to themselves, "Typical Arab." and not even think twice that maybe.. just maybe, someone with too much spare time on their hands is playing a joke.

Stop being so feeble-minded that you fall for this idiot's posts.

I have to agree about this jerkish Cat's Meow. He's most likely an Arab posting as if he's a jew to be able to bag on israel and the jewish population without being called an anti-semite and if by chance he is a jew then he is one of the worst type of jews there are - a self-hating one. have this dumbarse cat's meow banned for the troll he is! By his infantile writing skillz its obvious he isnt applying to med school. for christ's sake, his posts are barely coherent! he's probably some prepubescent teen trying to cause problems on this serious chat board. out with his head

 

[jonb12997]

This is SUCH a great place to argue spritual matters...

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

Well, to my knowledge the New Testament does not allow for killing. If it does, by all means please point me to the passage so I can educate myself. I thought the power to take and give life was solely in God's hands, hence 'turn the other cheek' and all that jazz.

Also, can you expand on the difference between 'killing' and 'murder'? The affected person is just as dead either way.

LiNK: we are definitely seeing eye to eye.

I am definitely a "pro-life" person in all respects: I do not believe in death penalty under ANY circumstances, I do not believe in war, I do not believe in violence as a form of self-defense (though I cannot know what I would do if I were put in that situation), I do not believe in abortion, stem-cell research, euthanasia, cloning, letting comatose people die, and I definitely support strict gun control laws.

Christ said to love our enemies. If that criminal is my enemy, I must love him, and that means NOT killing him. It is alright to deprive him of freedom, so as to ensure the safety of others (that's actually loving others!), but not to execute him.

 

[DOJDEE]

Well, to my knowledge the New Testament does not allow for killing. If it does, by all means please point me to the passage so I can educate myself. I thought the power to take and give life was solely in God's hands, hence 'turn the other cheek' and all that jazz.

Also, can you expand on the difference between 'killing' and 'murder'? The affected person is just as dead either way.

the first question: you refer to the new testament, while it is in there also, i would like to know, do you not use the old testament?

the second part to your question, im my opinion, is really deep and exciting to me. "affected person is just as dead either way" hmmm ... well to me, this world is a front basically. its not "real". the "real" world is the spiritual world. the world we see right now is a front to test us under certain conditions. we can make choices to do certain things and while they may appear to be or do one thing here, there is an entirely different scenerio and cause/effect in the spiritual world. basically what i am gettig at is to the spiritual world, death in our "front world" means very little. the way in which it is caused may or may not be a sin against God. this is what matters. i can go into this more if you would like. this is something ive thought about a lot and i see it as being quite exciting.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

LiNK: we are definitely seeing eye to eye.

I am definitely a "pro-life" person in all respects: I do not believe in death penalty under ANY circumstances, I do not believe in war, I do not believe in violence as a form of self-defense (though I cannot know what I would do if I were put in that situation), I do not believe in abortion, stem-cell research, euthanasia, cloning, letting comatose people die, and I definitely support strict gun control laws.

Christ said to love our enemies. If that criminal is my enemy, I must love him, and that means NOT killing him. It is alright to deprive him of freedom, so as to ensure the safety of others (that's actually loving others!), but not to execute him.

i'm with you.

 

[LiNk]

LiNK: we are definitely seeing eye to eye.

I am definitely a "pro-life" person in all respects: I do not believe in death penalty under ANY circumstances, I do not believe in war, I do not believe in violence as a form of self-defense (though I cannot know what I would do if I were put in that situation), I do not believe in abortion, stem-cell research, euthanasia, cloning, letting comatose people die, and I definitely support strict gun control laws.

Christ said to love our enemies. If that criminal is my enemy, I must love him, and that means NOT killing him. It is alright to deprive him of freedom, so as to ensure the safety of others (that's actually loving others!), but not to execute him.

Just one more question: I assume you also vigorously oppose in-vitro fertilization, given that each in-vitro pregnancy results in the destruction of easily half a dozen or more viable zygotes?

 

[LiNk]

the first question: you refer to the new testament, while it is in there also, i would like to know, do you not use the old testament?

the second part to your question, im my opinion, is really deep and exciting to me. "affected person is just as dead either way" hmmm ... well to me, this world is a front basically. its not "real". the "real" world is the spiritual world. the world we see right now is a front to test us under certain conditions. we can make choices to do certain things and while they may appear to be or do one thing here, there is an entirely different scenerio and cause/effect in the spiritual world. basically what i am gettig at is to the spiritual world, death in our "front world" means very little. the way in which it is caused may or may not be a sin against God. this is what matters. i can go into this more if you would like. this is something ive thought about a lot and i see it as being quite exciting.

I am not aware of any interpretation of the New Testament which keeps Old Testament Laws. Christ said that the Law of Moses was no longer relevant. And I don't think your patients would be very reassured to hear that their diseases and world are 'not real', but that's a different discussion.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Just one more question: I assume you also vigorously oppose in-vitro fertilization, given that each in-vitro pregnancy results in the destruction of easily half a dozen or more viable zygotes?

don't they save them? I'm pretty sure they do. I think in-vitro fertilization is great for those who can not otherwise have babies.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

I am not aware of any interpretation of the New Testament which keeps Old Testament Laws. Christ said that the Law of Moses was no longer relevant. And I don't think your patients would be very reassured to hear that their diseases and world are 'not real', but that's a different discussion.

the 10 Commandments?????

 

[LiNk]

don't they save them? I'm pretty sure they do. I think in-vitro fertilization is great for those who can not otherwise have babies.

Actually now I'm not sure what they do with them. I just read that one clinic currently has 4,000 in storage and isn't sure what to do with them.

Now I just read that 84% of the clinics discard them. I also read that the decision is left up to the donors.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

Actually now I'm not sure what they do with them. I just read that one clinic currently has 4,000 in storage and isn't sure what to do with them.

Now I just read that 84% of the clinics discard them. I also read that the decision is left up to the donors.

If it could be done with a single egg, or two eggs, with the implantation of BOTH, I would support it. As it is, the production of many embryos that are then discarded is wrong, so no, I don't support IVF as it stands.

I think that if a doctor were willing to perform the procedure in a way consistent with the above, I would consider it. Otherwise, there is another alternative: there are literally millions of orphans in this world and they do need parents.

 

[DOJDEE]

I am not aware of any interpretation of the New Testament which keeps Old Testament Laws. Christ said that the Law of Moses was no longer relevant. And I don't think your patients would be very reassured to hear that their diseases and world are 'not real', but that's a different discussion.

wow you have that completely wrong... Jesus explicitly said that He came not to change the laws. this is very clear.

im sure my patients wouldnt. this is how i view my world, and this point now is where that view has taken me.

 

[DOJDEE]

Well, to my knowledge the New Testament does not allow for killing. If it does, by all means please point me to the passage so I can educate myself. I thought the power to take and give life was solely in God's hands, hence 'turn the other cheek' and all that jazz.

Also, can you expand on the difference between 'killing' and 'murder'? The affected person is just as dead either way.

you would have to biblically denounce all wars commanded by God and to say that most of the bible is wrong for saying that in certain circumstances the person is to be killed.

 

[Cat's Meow]

go ahead laugh now

and no one said anyone is telling a patient they are going to hell. I was merely saying they could tell them their perspective at some point....to turn to Jesus. it is the kindest thing they can do...no one is saying shove it down their throat if they resist.

Why turn to Jesus? Isn't believing in God enough?

I know that if someone told me I were going to hell beacause I did not equate God with Jesus, I'd be pissed.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

you would have to biblically denounce all wars commanded by God and to say that most of the bible is wrong for saying that in certain circumstances the person is to be killed.

You need to distinguish between the two testaments and different dispensations. At that time, and for Israel, it was Gods will that they wage war with the Canaanites. As it stands now, Christ said that we should love our neighbors and our enemies, so if we love them, we cannot kill them.

Btw, I don't know anywhere where Christ condemns someone to be killed/punished. The woman taken in adultery and the woman at the well - both were spared; the thief at the cross was forgiven, the other thief was NOT condemned. Even the Pharisees and Roman soldiers who killed him were not condemned - instead, he prayed for their FORGIVENESS. When in the garden they were taking him away, Peter hacked off the ear of Malchus, Christ healed it and said that those who lived by the sword would die by it.

Eye for an eye is over - turning the other cheek is Christ's way.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

Why turn to Jesus? Isn't believing in God enough?

I know that if someone told me I were going to hell beacause I did not equate God with Jesus, I'd be pissed.

By now, this discussion has gone way off topic. I think it's better to stick to discussing religion in medicine, i.e. morals, ethics, witnessing, and other topics relevant to medicine - not as to which religion is right or wrong.

 

[DOJDEE]

Why turn to Jesus? Isn't believing in God enough?

I know that if someone told me I were going to hell beacause I did not equate God with Jesus, I'd be pissed.

well if you want to know what i believe (since you are asking the question), then it is - yes, you are going to hell if you do not change. you have the knowledge and chance to accept Jesus into your life but you chose not to accept him. that is what i firmly believe to be the truth, that Jesus Christ died for our sins and through the grace of God we are saved. this is a gift we are freely given if only we chose to accept.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

well if you want to know what i believe (since you are asking the question), then it is - yes, you are going to hell if you do not change. you have the knowledge and chance to accept Jesus into your life but you chose not to accept him. that is what i firmly believe to be the truth, that Jesus Christ died for our sins and through the grace of God we are saved. this is a gift we are freely given if only we chose to accept.

Please! As I mentioned above, this is NOT the way to turn someone to your beliefs. It scares them and makes them really pissed off, so don't do it.

 

[Cat's Meow]

well if you want to know what i believe (since you are asking the question), then it is - yes, you are going to hell if you do not change. you have the knowledge and chance to accept Jesus into your life but you chose not to accept him. that is what i firmly believe to be the truth, that Jesus Christ died for our sins and through the grace of God we are saved. this is a gift we are freely given if only we chose to accept.

Would you honestly tell this to a patient on his/her deathbed???

I don't want to get into a theological argument with you about your faith, but I'll be blunt: I disagree with you 100%.

 

[LiNk]

wow you have that completely wrong... Jesus explicitly said that He came not to change the laws. this is very clear.

im sure my patients wouldnt. this is how i view my world, and this point now is where that view has taken me.

Ok, Ok, whoah. apparently I have it wrong. I believe you and Psycho Doc know more about Christianity that I do. But that still doesn't address the Bible Belt's support for the death penalty. I'm not picking on you to answer this, I just don't understand.

Mercaptovizadeh: I am happy to hear that you are consistent with your beliefs- even though I don't agree with you. I have much respect.

 

[DOJDEE]

You need to distinguish between the two testaments and different dispensations. At that time, and for Israel, it was Gods will that they wage war with the Canaanites. As it stands now, Christ said that we should love our neighbors and our enemies, so if we love them, we cannot kill them.

Btw, I don't know anywhere where Christ condemns someone to be killed/punished. The woman taken in adultery and the woman at the well - both were spared; the thief at the cross was forgiven, the other thief was NOT condemned. Even the Pharisees and Roman soldiers who killed him were not condemned - instead, he prayed for their FORGIVENESS. When in the garden they were taking him away, Peter hacked off the ear of Malchus, Christ healed it and said that those who lived by the sword would die by it.

Eye for an eye is over - turning the other cheek is Christ's way.

Matthew 5:16-18 "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

but being condemned and fleshy death are two different things. Jesus also clearly distinguishes that with lazareth.

Mat 5:38-46 "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have [thy] cloke also.And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?"

i could see how you would reason for no killing. but the way i see it, this "enemy" and how it is described is not described in terms of war. to me, what the usa did with japan embodies what Jesus is saying. that even though we were deathly at war and were each enemies, at the end, the usa helped japan greatly recover. this is actually something the usa is well known for, when we have gone to war, to actually help out the nation we were enemies with, to nurture them and help to grow.... thoughts??

 

[DOJDEE]

Please! As I mentioned above, this is NOT the way to turn someone to your beliefs. It scares them and makes them really pissed off, so don't do it.

if you are going to follow a faith but avoid scareing anyone, good luck... i tend to think you would quickly drift from your faith in hopes of pleasing everyone.

besides... if they dont believe in God, what are they scared of??? think about that one real hard and let me know what you think...

 

[JohnHolmes]

What role should religion play, if any, in medicine?

Should I feel free to discuss God with patients? In Israel, where everyone is Jew, this is allowable...but how about here in the US?

Thanks for any feedback!

God bless,

CM

What we are taught, is, you generally keep the Lord out of your discussion with patients. You do not know their belief system. Since religion is a highly personal thing, even a *hint* of proselytizing will have dramatic, negative consequences on the patient-physician relationship.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

Matthew 5:16-18 "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

but being condemned and fleshy death are two different things. Jesus also clearly distinguishes that with lazareth.

Mat 5:38-46 "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have [thy] cloke also.And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?"

i could see how you would reason for no killing. but the way i see it, this "enemy" and how it is described is not described in terms of war. to me, what the usa did with japan embodies what Jesus is saying. that even though we were deathly at war and were each enemies, at the end, the usa helped japan greatly recover. this is actually something the usa is well known for, when we have gone to war, to actually help out the nation we were enemies with, to nurture them and help to grow.... thoughts??

The error in your thinking arises from the fact that you are seeing people as macroscopic objects (which is the normal human tendency). You have to put yourself in the shoes of the individual and then think if you would want to have _______ done to you. For instance, it is easy to rationalize that it was good to drop the A bomb on Hiroshima because it ended the war and stopped further dying.

On the other hand, if you were a man in Hiroshima who lost his entire family, had his skin and flesh burned, were blinded, and then died of radiation sickness, would you see it as justified? I doubt it. It's easy to speak of people as macroscopic entities, but not so easy to actually step into their shoes.

 

[DOJDEE]

Would you honestly tell this to a patient on his/her deathbed???

I don't want to get into a theological argument with you about your faith, but I'll be blunt: I disagree with you 100%.

im sure you do disagree. i am not going to fault you for that. you have your own choices to make.

would i tell that to a patient on their deathbed? depends.... do they want me to tell it to them or not? again i will never press my beliefs on anyone. i dont think we can force anyone to believe anything. so i dont try. i will gladly talk about it, and honestly if you are around me, the subject comes up pretty easily... but i will never force it ever. your choice to make completely...

 

[DOJDEE]

The error in your thinking arises from the fact that you are seeing people as macroscopic objects (which is the normal human tendency). You have to put yourself in the shoes of the individual and then think if you would want to have _______ done to you. For instance, it is easy to rationalize that it was good to drop the A bomb on Hiroshima because it ended the war and stopped further dying.

On the other hand, if you were a man in Hiroshima who lost his entire family, had his skin and flesh burned, were blinded, and then died of radiation sickness, would you see it as justified? I doubt it. It's easy to speak of people as macroscopic entities, but not so easy to actually step into their shoes.

or you could ask the okinawans if they thought it was good to stop the japanese from murdering them? do you think satan wants to get hurt?

 

[Code Brown]

Wow, this thread really got going.

Here are my two cents worth.

As a physician, your job is to give your patients all of the available options that you are aware of, regardless of your personal beliefs. Anything less is irresponsible and manipulative. Let the patient and their family decide what they should do.

Now, you don't have to be willing to perform all of the options, but keeping them secret is just plain wrong. You can't pretend that options don't exist.

 

[JohnHolmes]

besides... if they dont believe in God, what are they scared of??? think about that one real hard and let me know what you think...

Unfortunately, the physician patient relationship is one built on complete confidence and trust-including a requirement that the physician understand, accept and validate everyone's belief system. With an attitude like this, you will rapidly alientate your patients, marginalize their feelings, and either cause them to stop seeking medical treatment from you (or physicians altogether, the chilling effect is dramatic), or you will receive an incomplete history, which is fundamental to the physician's ability to diagnose and treat disease.

Either way, you are sacrificing your patients' interest for your own.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

if you are going to follow a faith but avoid scareing anyone, good luck... i tend to think you would quickly drift from your faith in hopes of pleasing everyone.

besides... if they dont believe in God, what are they scared of??? think about that one real hard and let me know what you think...

You are of course right that it pissed them off because it rattles them, it forces them to look at death, and NOBODY likes facing death.

On the other hand, there are other ways of witnessing that won't immediately raise the antibodies of most people, ways that in the long run, will actually come to fruition more than telling people they are going to hell.

An example:

Recently, I've been working with a couple of people that I know do not share my beliefs. I am quite open with them about mine, but open "with restraint" - I try to demonstrate the "better way" of Christ - to show that his way is not of this world, and I try to live a life that differs in some fundamental way from the norm that people are accustomed to.

Another example, I recently sat at a concert next to an elderly Frenchwoman. We got to talking about history, WWII (my family is also from Europe), the present state of affairs, war in general, etc. She had a very idealistic secular humanist view. I shot these down and told her that I thought that we humans could do very little to improve the state of affairs, and that what she envisioned would not take place until Christ's second coming. This was blunt, but it was appropriate; I probably will never again see that woman - if this "blunt" technique rattles her and makes her think a bit about God, so much the better; I had nothing to lose, so to speak. In contrast, a more nuanced approach is called for for people you will see and work with often and everyday - nuanced comments about faith, as well as a "living testimonial" may be stronger tools and they won't alienate. Agreed?

 

[DOJDEE]

Unfortunately, the physician patient relationship is one built on complete confidence and trust-including a requirement that the physician understand, accept and validate everyone's belief system. With an attitude like this, you will rapidly alientate your patients, marginalize their feelings, and either cause them to stop seeking medical treatment from you (or physicians altogether, the chilling effect is dramatic), or you will receive an incomplete history, which is fundamental to the physician's ability to diagnose and treat disease.

Either way, you are sacrificing your patients' interest for your own.

yes i know. point is, i would not tell that to a patient that did not ask.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Why turn to Jesus? Isn't believing in God enough?

no!

I know that if someone told me I were going to hell beacause I did not equate God with Jesus, I'd be pissed.

well yea no one feels comfortable when they are insecure.

 

[JohnHolmes]

As a physician, your job is to give your patients all of the available options that you are aware of, regardless of your personal beliefs. Anything less is irresponsible and manipulative. Let the patient and their family decide what they should do.

You are on the right track. It is more than that however, it is malpractice. Physicians have been successfully sued for failure to sufficiently disclose.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

or you could ask the okinawans if they thought it was good to stop the japanese from murdering them? do you think satan wants to get hurt?

The point is, the man in Hiroshima who was murdered by the atom bomb wasn't doing the murdering. He was entirely innocent of it. He wasn't guilty for Pearl Harbor or for the Rape of Nanking or the Korean comfort women; his only guilt was that he was Japanese. And calling any human beings Satan is precisely that - satanization - and it enables further inhumanity.

Again, I return to my point: look at the individuals, not the groups, and you may see a face looking back at you.

 

[JohnHolmes]

yes i know. point is, i would not tell that to a patient that did not ask.

I would go so far as to keep faith out of it altogether, even when asked, saying faith "is an important, personal matter", unless you have an incredibly long standing, close relationship with this particular patient (years).

Even when asked, beliefs can be shared in a way that intimidates others...

 

[DOJDEE]

You are of course right that it pissed them off because it rattles them, it forces them to look at death, and NOBODY likes facing death.

On the other hand, there are other ways of witnessing that won't immediately raise the antibodies of most people, ways that in the long run, will actually come to fruition more than telling people they are going to hell.

An example:

Recently, I've been working with a couple of people that I know do not share my beliefs. I am quite open with them about mine, but open "with restraint" - I try to demonstrate the "better way" of Christ - to show that his way is not of this world, and I try to live a life that differs in some fundamental way from the norm that people are accustomed to.

Another example, I recently sat at a concert next to an elderly Frenchwoman. We got to talking about history, WWII (my family is also from Europe), the present state of affairs, war in general, etc. She had a very idealistic secular humanist view. I shot these down and told her that I thought that we humans could do very little to improve the state of affairs, and that what she envisioned would not take place until Christ's second coming. This was blunt, but it was appropriate; I probably will never again see that woman - if this "blunt" technique rattles her and makes her think a bit about God, so much the better; I had nothing to lose, so to speak. In contrast, a more nuanced approach is called for for people you will see and work with often and everyday - nuanced comments about faith, as well as a "living testimonial" may be stronger tools and they won't alienate. Agreed?

guys i am not saying to do such an such in a concrete way in every situation.

additionally, nothing you say will make someone believe one or another way - likewise you will not make them stop believing. if they do or dont one way or the other, that is between them and god, and god gave us all the freedom of choice.

ive seen ppl witness to other ppl and it was so cool. the ppl witnessing were tired and didnt wanna talk about anything but bluntly told about the basics in no amazing way all at. i later find out that the person that was witnessed to had since become very religious.

all we do when we witness to others is shine as a reflection of God. God knows what the person needs/wants to hear and know. better yet that you dont try to to do that, just do what you feel is the right thing to do or say or whatever - just let God work through you. that is what will happen anyways...

 

[DOJDEE]

The point is, the man in Hiroshima who was murdered by the atom bomb wasn't doing the murdering. He was entirely innocent of it. He wasn't guilty for Pearl Harbor or for the Rape of Nanking or the Korean comfort women; his only guilt was that he was Japanese. And calling any human beings Satan is precisely that - satanization - and it enables further inhumanity.

Again, I return to my point: look at the individuals, not the groups, and you may see a face looking back at you.

i wasnt calling him satan, satan is an unique individual apart from us all.

do this for me. tell me about the the cities of sodom and gomorrah.


interesting note about some recent archeological findings :http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a007.html