Rocky Vista "Turmoil"?

[Lokhtar]

What does that matter? A lot of graduates of these places are the ones who are taking care of you every day. They may even have designed the building you sit in now or have built the car you ride around in. I attended two different state schools for undergrad. I have no idea where they "rank", nor do I care. I feel like I got a pretty good education. The educaton is the bottom line, not a silly ranking.

I bet they ranked in the top 100, or 200, or at least somewhere in the top four tiers.

Are you claiming that the education and education opportunities provided by the schools listed is on a similar level to traditional non-profit schools

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[scpod]

I bet they ranked in the top 100, or 200, or at least somewhere in the top four tiers.

Are you claiming that the education and education opportunities provided by the schools listed is on a similar level to traditional non-profit schools

Granted, a Harvard MBA is likely to open more opportunities for you than one from a for-profit school. But, is the education truly better? Does the student undedstand Economics more thoroughly? Can they predict the future trends in the stock market more accurately? I'm just not so sure that it will make all that much difference in the real world.

 

[MSSM2013]

Granted, a Harvard MBA is likely to open more opportunities for you than one from a for-profit school. But, is the education truly better? Does the student undedstand Economics more thoroughly? Can they predict the future trends in the stock market more accurately? I'm just not so sure that it will make all that much difference in the real world.

pedigree matters a lot and sometimes it's all it matters. to say so otherwise is kidding yourself.

 

[PunkmedGirl]

pedigree matters a lot and sometimes it's all it matters. to say so otherwise is kidding yourself.

But pedigree is merely in the name or viewed as a status symbol of some sort, but it rarely has to do with the quality of education that is received.

 

[Lokhtar]

Granted, a Harvard MBA is likely to open more opportunities for you than one from a for-profit school. But, is the education truly better? Does the student undedstand Economics more thoroughly? Can they predict the future trends in the stock market more accurately? I'm just not so sure that it will make all that much difference in the real world.

I would contend they do. I would also contend that they have more of an incentive to keep the learning more student focused. In a situation where they have to compete or go out of business, maybe you would see more student focus, but even if they fail out 80% of their students, there would be hundreds of people still willing to go there. It is COCA's responsibility to make sure they are acting in a manner consistant with the best interests of the students, and as they are for-profit, it means, ipso facto, that they are acting in the best interests of the shareholders. And considering the market, they don't have to give a **** about students.

 

[scpod]

....In a situation where they have to compete or go out of business, maybe you would see more student focus, but even if they fail out 80% of their students, there would be hundreds of people still willing to go there. It is COCA's responsibility to make sure they are acting in a manner consistant with the best interests of the students, and as they are for-profit, it means, ipso facto, that they are acting in the best interests of the shareholders....

COCA's job is to make sure that they have the money, resources and curriculum to produce medical students. Apparently COCA is satisfied with that currently. They have met all the requirments so far and the only difference is in their financial model. Also, due to COCA, you cannot have an 80% failure rate. With continuing accredidation RVU must consistently graduate quality students. If they fail to do that they will lose accreditation, lose students, and never make any money. The reason why Caribbean schools can have such a high failure rate is that their is NO accrediting body to watch over them.

 

[droogdoc]

I am not trying to justify RVU, but rather expressing disgust for the salaries. There is an obvious profit being made even though it is on an individual basis.
Additionally, you cant claim these individuals are solely responsible for the schools success. Im all for capitalism but you expect these numbers on Wall Street not universities and art museums.

Wow!! I agree. I dont give a damn how much a Wall Street dude makes, it is private money and if someone has a problem with it, well, dont invest with that company! But when it comes to schools, including private schools like Harvard or Johns Hopkins, those salaries of $1-5 million are outrageous. Especially if the school gets some public funding as well. Schools dont even have to compete anymore so they care less about the tuition they charge.

Why isnt this considered a big issue? Someon has to graduate with a mountain of debt because the president of the school makes this type of money? Also, all schools, regardless of tax-status, reap huge benefits and "profits" for their people. Not to mention the unbelieveable waste that occurs, especially at state-run schools.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Granted, a Harvard MBA is likely to open more opportunities for you than one from a for-profit school. But, is the education truly better? Does the student undedstand Economics more thoroughly? Can they predict the future trends in the stock market more accurately? I'm just not so sure that it will make all that much difference in the real world.

I mean are you really saying that an MBA from university of phoenix is equivalent to an MBA from harvard and that the 2 graduates will have comparable skills? Because if you are you are off of your rocker.

 

[scpod]

I mean are you really saying that an MBA from university of phoenix is equivalent to an MBA from harvard and that the 2 graduates will have comparable skills? Because if you are you are off of your rocker.

Do they study the same classes? Do they use the same books? If so, then they just might be equal MBA's. The fact that one came from Harvard makes little difference to me. So, in the same light.... is a doctor from Harvard a better doctor too, just because he came from Harvard? I'm just trying to use your logic here and understand your position.

 

[jkmph]

Do they study the same classes? Do they use the same books? If so, then they just might be equal MBA's. The fact that one came from Harvard makes little difference to me. So, in the same light.... is a doctor from Harvard a better doctor too, just because he came from Harvard? I'm just trying to use your logic here and understand your position.

Better is a relative term. It's hard to argue that the University of Phoenix can compare to studying under nobel laureates, listening to guest lecturers from senators and ex-Presidents, former heads of state and CEO's of fortune 500 companies.

Maybe you think that all MBA programs offer that to their students. Maybe you think that the degree earned is equivalent regardless of environment. You're entitled to that opinion but I think there is a pretty strong argument that Harvard (or any other top 25 school) wins by a mile.

Not that this has anything at all to do with RVU or the OP...

 

[scpod]

Not that this has anything at all to do with RVU or the OP...

No, it doesn't have anything to do with that.... except to show that people have an automatic bias based on "name brands." It's a poor way to judge people, IMHO.

 

[Lokhtar]

Do they study the same classes? Do they use the same books? If so, then they just might be equal MBA's. The fact that one came from Harvard makes little difference to me. So, in the same light.... is a doctor from Harvard a better doctor too, just because he came from Harvard? I'm just trying to use your logic here and understand your position.

Med school curriculum and board testing is standardized, unlike MBA. But on average, yea, I would expect them to be smarter and/or harder working on average.

 

[MSSM2013]

Do they study the same classes? Do they use the same books? If so, then they just might be equal MBA's. The fact that one came from Harvard makes little difference to me. So, in the same light.... is a doctor from Harvard a better doctor too, just because he came from Harvard? I'm just trying to use your logic here and understand your position.

except MBA is all about connection and networking. The actual knowledge learned is less. MBA is all about learning how to manage a business. I am not sure if you really understand what a MBA is.

 

[Brocimus]

Hey Lokhtar, are you a business major? Cause you sure claim to know a lot about business. You argue that businesses focus on keeping shareholders happy, and they do this by skimping on costs to raise profits. Fact is, successful businesses today put their focus into keeping both shareholders and stakeholders happy. As with RVU's case, students are arguably the biggest stakeholders of the organization. Yes, the founders will take a profit, but they better be for danged sure to reinvest the bulk of their revenues back into the school. If students aren't getting what they paid for (a successful education), the organization will fail. I personally, will not blow 160K on tuition and not be ready to become a doctor. Nor will anyone else. You make the argument that due to the huge demand from students to get into med school, there will be those bottom tier applicants who can't get in anywhere who are willing to take the risk. That may be, but this isn't what we've seen so far. So far, RVU's matriculants are average and trending upward (be it only one year of trend to go off of). Anyway, my point is, RVU has every reason to provide quality education. Their success depends on it.

Oh, and to the above posts - I received my undergrad from the #5 business program in the country. Not #1 Harvard, but a decent program nonetheless. A lot of faculty there are convinced that the program isn't much different from any other program in the country (including the for profit programs). They all study the same cases, teach the same material, and prepare for the same tests. The difference? Top programs are successful at recruiting top students. From there they do their best not to ruin them. Yes, there are differences as far as who is presenting the material, but the programs themselves are all very similar.

 

[Lokhtar]

Hey Lokhtar, are you a business major? Cause you sure claim to know a lot about business. You argue that businesses focus on keeping shareholders happy, and they do this by skimping on costs to raise profits. Fact is, successful businesses today put their focus into keeping both shareholders and stakeholders happy. As with RVU's case, students are arguably the biggest stakeholders of the organization.

Come on, if you were a business major, you'd know that there is no equilibrium between supply and demand when it comes to medical school. The supply is far far too small to meet the demand, the individual schools don't have to give a crap about the stakeholders to be successful in order to make profits.

 

[Spider29er]

Come on, if you were a business major, you'd know that there is no equilibrium between supply and demand when it comes to medical school. The supply is far far too small to meet the demand, the individual schools don't have to give a crap about the stakeholders to be successful in order to make profits.

True, but you missed Bromicus' point!!! Without putting out successful physicians, this school is history (Not that you needed defending Bromicus)...And we are talking about Medicine, not Business....Oh wait they are the same too...Yikes...

 

[group_theory]

RVU's existence have been filled with controversy from the very beginning (ever since the school decided to be for-profit). In addition to being the new kid on the block, it's for-profit status have already caused people to have a lot of raw emotions, especially in the osteopathic community (and not just limited to the SDN community).

RVU students already are disadvantaged since they don't have a strong alumni base to help them, their clinical rotations/affliations haven't been tested yet, the school doesn't have an OPTI or residency programs yet. At the same time, since the students aren't eligible for federal loans until the school receives full accreditation from COCA/AOA, students are either HPSP or private loans (besides interest rates, you lose the benefits of subsidized loans and the more favorable terms of federal loans).

It will be interesting to see what happens comes match time. RVU certainly exposed a lot of raw emotion in the osteopathic community and it will be interesting to see how it affects the match. Yes board scores and clinical rotation grades are important, but there is a personal element to it too that makes up a big component of the rank list. In the past I've helped moved applicants significant up the rank list that I've liked (who didn't have the most exciting board score or grades but would have been excellent residents), and helped move applicants down the list (or drop off the list entirely) that I did not like.*

*there were legitimate reasons, reasons that I can justify to the rest of the rank committee

 

[DocHomer]

I would contend they do. I would also contend that they have more of an incentive to keep the learning more student focused. In a situation where they have to compete or go out of business, maybe you would see more student focus, but even if they fail out 80% of their students, there would be hundreds of people still willing to go there. It is COCA's responsibility to make sure they are acting in a manner consistant with the best interests of the students, and as they are for-profit, it means, ipso facto, that they are acting in the best interests of the shareholders. And considering the market, they don't have to give a **** about students.

Isn't this the same issue that many physicians and hospitals face? If the premise is that the profit motive equals a zero sum game where shareholders win and the recipients of services lose, then the only logical conclusion can be that the private for-profit medical community cannot act in the best interests of its patients as well. However, I have a funny feeling that people who berate RVU would be less than happy about lower reimbursements for certain specialties and price controls as a way to lower the overall cost of health care.

 

[boone95]

RVU's existence have been filled with controversy from the very beginning (ever since the school decided to be for-profit). In addition to being the new kid on the block, it's for-profit status have already caused people to have a lot of raw emotions, especially in the osteopathic community (and not just limited to the SDN community).

RVU students already are disadvantaged since they don't have a strong alumni base to help them, their clinical rotations/affliations haven't been tested yet, the school doesn't have an OPTI or residency programs yet. At the same time, since the students aren't eligible for federal loans until the school receives full accreditation from COCA/AOA, students are either HPSP or private loans (besides interest rates, you lose the benefits of subsidized loans and the more favorable terms of federal loans).

It will be interesting to see what happens comes match time. RVU certainly exposed a lot of raw emotion in the osteopathic community and it will be interesting to see how it affects the match. Yes board scores and clinical rotation grades are important, but there is a personal element to it too that makes up a big component of the rank list. In the past I've helped moved applicants significant up the rank list that I've liked (who didn't have the most exciting board score or grades but would have been excellent residents), and helped move applicants down the list (or drop off the list entirely) that I did not like.*

*there were legitimate reasons, reasons that I can justify to the rest of the rank committee

RVU has formed a new OPTI, the Rocky Mountain OPTI. It's obviously not accredited yet, but just like the school itself, surely will be when the time comes.

Yeah, the loan situation isn't ideal, but we still get the rates of a GradPlus loan, so it isn't awful either. Just no subsidized loans for a couple years.

Are you saying that you think some residencies will drop RVU students off the match list simply because they attended RVU, regardless of their scores, grades, and overall fit to the program?
More specifically that 'some residencies,' would you dissuade your colleagues from accepting an RVU student?

Just curious. I know that many people don't care about the school, as long as the students are quality. But I haven't heard much from people who are anti-RVU on principle.

I appreciate your input. It's nice to hear from the residencies.

 

[group_theory]

Are you saying that you think some residencies will drop RVU students off the match list simply because they attended RVU, regardless of their scores, grades, and overall fit to the program?
More specifically that 'some residencies,' would you dissuade your colleagues from accepting an RVU student?

Just curious. I know that many people don't care about the school, as long as the students are quality. But I haven't heard much from people who are anti-RVU on principle.

I appreciate your input. It's nice to hear from the residencies.

What I am saying is I don't know what effects the raw emotions of RVU will have on its students when it comes to match time. It may have no impact, mild impact, or dramatic impact.

Currently at my acgme university program, I've heard some faculty members start to comment on the explosion of new DO schools and are far more likely to interview DO students from established schools than the newer schools. Looking at the the interview list for this year, I don't see any students from any of the newer DO schools invited for interview this year. I don't know if RVU's for-profit status will have any impact but I suspect that it will.

 

[MSSM2013]

RVU has formed a new OPTI, the Rocky Mountain OPTI. It's obviously not accredited yet, but just like the school itself, surely will be when the time comes.

Yeah, the loan situation isn't ideal, but we still get the rates of a GradPlus loan, so it isn't awful either. Just no subsidized loans for a couple years.

Are you saying that you think some residencies will drop RVU students off the match list simply because they attended RVU, regardless of their scores, grades, and overall fit to the program?
More specifically that 'some residencies,' would you dissuade your colleagues from accepting an RVU student?

Just curious. I know that many people don't care about the school, as long as the students are quality. But I haven't heard much from people who are anti-RVU on principle.

I appreciate your input. It's nice to hear from the residencies.

I think RVU students will still match, but I think its matchlist would look similar to SGU or AUC in the carribean

 

[Brocimus]

I think RVU students will still match, but I think its matchlist would look similar to SGU or AUC in the carribean

I think it will depend on the numbers the students post.

 

[Spider29er]

I think it will depend on the numbers the students post.

Well really, I know an anesthesiologist who graduated from SGU...His opinion, and I believe him is: Your education is what you make of it. On the other hand, I know a Dr who graduated from Harvard, and although smart, is a sh*#%^ doctor, with the people skills of toilet paper.

 

[MSSM2013]

I think it will depend on the numbers the students post.

well, what I am trying to say is, you can have a harvard grad with 210 matching into harvard anesthiology, or you can have a SGU grad with 260 and barely squeaking into internal med, I think RVU grad will have more of an uphill battle, similar to the uphill battle SGU grads have to climb.

except that RVU grad are also DOs and have to take OMM classes and such, so they can't just have a 2 year board prep course like the way carribean school run their courses.

so becoming a RVU grad, you essentially have to be face the DO stigma and the carribean stigma at the same time.

 

[WhatsNext]

I think it's important to note that a lot of what's being posted on this thread is conjecture since RVU is still a new school. Their curriculum includes a board review course. While it may not be like that of Caribbean schools (I cannot say for sure since I don't have any knowledge of this), it is still a board review. We will all know for sure in a couple of years what the board scores and residency matches will look like for RVU. Until that evidence is available, this is all just speculation. I wish the students at RVU the best of luck in their futures.

 

[futIDdoc]

Well really, I know an anesthesiologist who graduated from SGU...His opinion, and I believe him is: Your education is what you make of it. On the other hand, I know a Dr who graduated from Harvard, and although smart, is a sh*#%^ doctor, with the people skills of toilet paper.

n=1 in both cases. If it were my career, I would not attend a school that institutes a brand-new model (for-profit osteo) until they produced at least one round of graduated, and matched, students. If the lists look like DMU, CCOM, PCOM, etc than sure why not go. If they look like a Carib school with a ton of people (say > 10%) not matching, I would run for the hills. Students who finance their education through loans should not gamble with their futures if they have opportunities besides RVU.

For those complaining about people being biased or prejudiced against RVU, too bad. Medicine is an extremely conservative field that is skeptical of change, which is a good thing. Nothing is acceptable (be it a treatment, or model of education) until it has been proven to be equal or better than the current standards. If you can't handle being over-scrutinized and judged to a harsher standard, go to law school.

 

[SolanoDoc]

A lot of people have treated RVU with hostility because of its for profit status but that does not mean that non profit schools do not make a lot of money or are not very business oriented. Many of the big Allopathic schools in this country often own hospitals and large health networks.

 

[futIDdoc]

actually, the majority of affiliated health networks and hospitals are non-profit.

 

[SolanoDoc]

actually, the majority of affiliated health networks and hospitals are non-profit.

Duke opened a for profit school in Singapore. Cornell has a campus in Qatar. I heard NYU is planning a school in Dubai.

Many big universities do indeed own large networks of hospitals, and despite being non profit, make a lot of money. The difference is that non profits don't give dividends to shareholders.

 

[Instatewaiter]

A lot of people have treated RVU with hostility because of its for profit status but that does not mean that non profit schools do not make a lot of money or are not very business oriented. Many of the big Allopathic schools in this country often own hospitals and large health networks.

First almost all allopathic schools own their own hospital... as they should. For students, when a univeristy owns its hospital it is a good thing. It means that its students get to rotate there with carte blanche to do and see whatever they want. This means all of the students can rotate in one hospital leading to very consistent, standardized, solid rotations.

Second as has already been stated, these hospitals are generally non-profit.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Duke opened a for profit school in Singapore.

Cornell has a campus in Qatar.

Not US schools. If you graduate from Duke medical school in Singapore you are still a foreign medical graduate.

Many big universities do indeed own large networks of hospitals, and despite being non profit, make a lot of money. The difference is that non profits don't give dividends to shareholders.

So that money goes into the pockets of the shareholders- instead of going back into the school for scholarships (harvard is a good example here), for new buildings, to give ancillary staff that makes a student's life easier, etc.

RVU may have a nice new building because it was just built but they have no hospital of their own. Plus, wait for a few years. You will see that there is a big difference between what they can offer and still pay their shareholders and what a non-profit university can.

I have said this in the past- Going to RVU when you have other options is a very stupid decision. Now if you have no other options that is a different story

 

[Siggy]

First almost all allopathic schools own their own hospital...

Tufts University does not own Tufts Medical Center (formerly Tufts-New England Medical Center).

 

[SolanoDoc]

well, what I am trying to say is, you can have a harvard grad with 210 matching into harvard anesthiology, or you can have a SGU grad with 260 and barely squeaking into internal med, I think RVU grad will have more of an uphill battle, similar to the uphill battle SGU grads have to climb.

except that RVU grad are also DOs and have to take OMM classes and such, so they can't just have a 2 year board prep course like the way carribean school run their courses.

so becoming a RVU grad, you essentially have to be face the DO stigma and the carribean stigma at the same time.

How can that be the case since its an AOA institution? RVU is a US medical school. I heard that there are even plans to build for profit MD schools in the States. Even some of the best universities in the US are looking like money making machines.

 

[futIDdoc]

How can that be the case since its an AOA institution? RVU is a US medical school. I heard that there are even plans to build for profit MD schools in the States. Even some of the best universities in the US are looking like money making machines.

No can do. LCME strictly forbids for-profit schools. An allo counterpart to RVU simply cannot happen.

 

[MSSM2013]

how can that be the case since its an aoa institution? Rvu is a us medical school. I heard that there are even plans to build for profit md schools in the states. Even some of the best universities in the us are looking like money making machines.

no.

 

[boone95]

You will see that there is a big difference between what they can offer and still pay their shareholders and what a non-profit university can.

I have said this in the past- Going to RVU when you have other options is a very stupid decision. Now if you have no other options that is a different story

Boone95 = stupid decision maker! (but still doesn't regret decision. must be real stupid!)

Can you tell me who RVU's shareholders are?

 

[MSSM2013]

Boone95 = stupid decision maker! (but still doesn't regret decision. must be real stupid!)

Can you tell me who RVU's shareholders are?

don't think RVU is public traded, all the $$ goes to Tien's family.

 

[Spider29er]

Boone95 = stupid decision maker! (but still doesn't regret decision. must be real stupid!)

Can you tell me who RVU's shareholders are?

That thar is funny, I don't care who you are...

 

[Instatewaiter]

How can that be the case since its an AOA institution? RVU is a US medical school. I heard that there are even plans to build for profit MD schools in the States. Even some of the best universities in the US are looking like money making machines.

Did you hear this from the same people who told you it was a good idea to go to a new, for-profit school despite the controversy surrounding the school and despite the fact that no one knows a thing about their board pass rate or their viability in the match?

 

[DO Anes]

Did you hear this from the same people who told you it was a good idea to go to a new, for-profit school despite the controversy surrounding the school and despite the fact that no one knows a thing about their board pass rate or their viability in the match?

The desire of people to get a medical degree, coupled with a very nice Denver area location makes for a lot of cognitive dissonance. Morality and scruples aside, RVU is quite possibly the most brilliant business idea I have ever heard of. Unlike the LCME, COCA was more than willing to bend over, with only the credibility of osteopathic medicine at risk.

 

[WhatsNext]

don't think RVU is public traded, all the $$ goes to Tien's family.

A corporation doesn't have to be publicly traded in order to have shareholders. So, how do you know all the money goes to Tien's family? Have you read RVU's statement of cash flows or their balance sheet? Probably not since they are privately held. But, I'm just curious as to what is the basis for your claim.

 

[WhatsNext]

The desire of people to get a medical degree, coupled with a very nice Denver area location makes for a lot of cognitive dissonance. Morality and scruples aside, RVU is quite possibly the most brilliant business idea I have ever heard of. Unlike the LCME, COCA was more than willing to bend over, with only the credibility of osteopathic medicine at risk.

OK. So, I should probably just let all of this go. But, I just can't help myself. So, I'll open myself up to get flamed.

First, I completely understand the trepidation about the facts that RVU has yet to have COMLEX step 1 scores published, have students complete clinical rotations, graduate a class, or have graduates match to residencies. These are risks that I'm personally not willing to take at this point in time in my life. But, that's just me.

But, as to the immorality and unscrupulous nature of for-profit medical education, would someone be able to point me to some recent documented evidence on this? It seems that a lot of people on this thread seem to have a problem with the for-profit model, and I can't wrap my brain around why. I'm not looking for any flippant, emotional, or speculative answers on this. I'm actually looking to be educated since I can't seem to find any reason to be against a for-profit model. Maybe I'm not searching hard enough. I don't know.

 

[DO Anes]

It depends on one's definition of a medical school. If a medical school is simply a place to go over textbooks and study for boards and get the entry to a residency, then any model, for-profit or otherwise, should be fine. If a medical school has a mission to expand the body of knowledge through research, if the best possible education is a priority (rather than meeting the minimal criteria of boards), if clinical education with professional, full-time employed faculty of consistent high quality is important, then there is little room to take a profit. A better question is, "Why a for-profit model?" RVU has never addressed this issue. Since there is no credible for-profit medical school in the industrialized world, the why is RVU's model better than that of every other medical school in the world? Frankly, considering the issues regarding health care reform, a logical, coherent rationale for this model might be welcome, but we have yet to hear it.
Osteopathic medicine has struggled throughout its history for credibility and acceptance. Given the strong opposition to for-profit education in the allopathic world, COCA's accreditation of a for-profit school is recklessly irresponsible and exposes this profession to a lethal threat. COCA has abrogated its responsibility of quality assurance by allowing unchecked growth of schools and branch campuses without adequate clinical support, it allows the schools to rely largely on part-time and volunteer clinical faculty, requires no research enterprise and - now - allows the exploitation of education for profit. All it will take is one "osteopathic" Libby Zion to bring down this whole house of cards and have the US Department of Education designate the LCME as the new accrediting body for ALL medical schools. Thus ends the profession.
The AOA is unwilling or unable to do much except ask for more dues from the membership. The president and board of trustees are impotent to the point of being unable to make any statements on this issue, pro or con. Those of us who believe in this profession and value its role in patient care are forced to stand by and watch it destroyed by the profiteers and their collaborators.

 

[DocHomer]

No one has addressed my question above. If for-profit medical schools are so bad, then why don't the same people have an issue with for-profit medicine? I contend that the main issue is simply tradition. We are used to non-profit medical education and are accustomed to the idea of making money on health care after graduation.

 

[SolanoDoc]

The big sticky about RVU is that the owner, Mr. Tien, is the son of the founder of a Caribbean medical school. So many in the DO community are up in arms about RVU. I personally don't like it because they are trying to put DOs at the same level as Caribbean MDs.

 

[MSSM2013]

No one has addressed my question above. If for-profit medical schools are so bad, then why don't the same people have an issue with for-profit medicine? I contend that the main issue is simply tradition. We are used to non-profit medical education and are accustomed to the idea of making money on health care after graduation.

perhaps because for profit medicine benefits everybody, you got more docs, people get fixed and of course the docs are happy.

a profit producing minimal competent or even incompetent physicians while all the rest of the money goes to someone's pocket benefit one person/family, and trust me, it ain't the graduates nor the patients.

 

[scpod]

No one has addressed my question above. If for-profit medical schools are so bad, then why don't the same people have an issue with for-profit medicine? I contend that the main issue is simply tradition. We are used to non-profit medical education and are accustomed to the idea of making money on health care after graduation.

No one has addressed your question because we all know it's true. We can be very self-righteous and scream about how bad a "for-profit" medical school is... then sit back and worry about how we are going to make more money in our own medical practice.

Medicine is a business. That's the bottom line.

 

[MSSM2013]

No one has addressed your question because we all know it's true. We can be very self-righteous and scream about how bad a "for-profit" medical school is... then sit back and worry about how we are going to make more money in our own medical practice.

Medicine is a business. That's the bottom line.

I just stated a reason about. One need not to be self-righteous to find for-profit education is bad.

My money is way too hard-earned to be finance some clown's vacation home (which is what will happen when you go to a for profit school. they are only responsible to maintain minimal competency).

when i got to a non profit school, those money would go into someone's pocket instead goes into research opportunities, etc and making sure I, myself, MSSM2013 have more future in my career.

I guess that's my perfectly selfish reason to go against for profit education

 

[boone95]

I just stated a reason about. One need not to be self-righteous to find for-profit education is bad.

My money is way too hard-earned to be finance some clown's vacation home (which is what will happen when you go to a for profit school. they are only responsible to maintain minimal competency).

when i got to a non profit school, those money would go into someone's pocket instead goes into research opportunities, etc and making sure I, myself, MSSM2013 have more future in my career.

I guess that's my perfectly selfish reason to go against for profit education

Given the undebatable fact that Colorado needed another medical school (not a single physician lives in 4 different counties):

How long do you think it would have taken the state of Colorado to fund and open a new medical school if RVU hadn't opened?

Do you think it better for the state and its people to patiently continue waiting (4 counties don't even have a doctor who lives there), or are we lucky that someone stepped up and acted?

True, there is minimal research at RVU right now, but that is in the process of changing. We have faculty who are actively setting that aspect up. I believe the administration was more focused on establishing a good curriculum before taking on the task of research when the school first opened. Can you name some other new DO schools that don't have much research activity yet? I can.

Also true: ANY medical school you pay to attend will be "financing some clown's vacation home." (clown = physician, dean, president, etc).


Dr Anes: I obviously can't answer "why for-profit." I can speculate that Mr. Tien didn't want to donate 50 million without getting some of it back, but maybe he could have gone through with that another way; regardless, speculation is essentially worthless. I also can't speak on the AOA and COCA decisions to allow a for-profit, but I applaud their openness to explore a new avenue. Like I wrote above, we need doctors, and the state governments can not act fast enough. It is feasible that this model will work without the predicted problems by some, but only time will tell. Uncertainty of the new and unknown will always be present. I do not, however, expect that another for-profit will open until RVU has been around to study its efficacy.

I do have a question for you regarding "clinical education with professional, full-time employed faculty of consistent high quality"... is this something that RVU does not have?

 

[MSSM2013]

I do have a question for you regarding "clinical education with professional, full-time employed faculty of consistent high quality"... is this something that RVU does not have?

I don't know. do you happen to have a website where you have names of clinical professors that are empolyed by RVU?