Should physicians be armed?

[Planes2Doc]

Yesterday's unfortunate tragedy has definitely brought up a lot of discussion regarding gun control/laws. A lot of people don't usually think about physicians arming themselves with weapons, but the school shooting in Connecticut made me think back to an episode of "Untold Stories of the ER" that I saw a while back.

In this episode, a group of armed gang members rushed one of their members who was seriously wounded to the ER. They held the staff hostage and told them that they would kill them if they could not save their friend. The ER physician calmly pleaded with them telling them that they did everything they could to save him, and made them understand that nothing could be done... The gang members never ended up hurting any of the hospital staff.

Since some physicians, especially ED doctors in urban areas, come into contact with people from all forms of life, do you think that they should arm themselves in case of a situation like above or some other deranged individual trying to harm others with a weapon?

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[aspiring20]

Yesterday's unfortunate tragedy has definitely brought up a lot of discussion regarding gun control/laws. A lot of people don't usually think about physicians arming themselves with weapons, but the school shooting in Connecticut made me think back to an episode of "Untold Stories of the ER" that I saw a while back.

In this episode, a group of armed gang members rushed one of their members who was seriously wounded to the ER. They held the staff hostage and told them that they would kill them if they could not save their friend. The ER physician calmly pleaded with them telling them that they did everything they could to save him, and made them understand that nothing could be done... The gang members never ended up hurting any of the hospital staff.

Since some physicians, especially ED doctors in urban areas, come into contact with people from all forms of life, do you think that they should arm themselves in case of a situation like above or some other deranged individual trying to harm others with a weapon?

this is a really interesting topic. but i would say armed security is the better option. most hospital already have armed security, and you can make an argument that it should be increased. but i believe more guns never solve the problem - it only escalate it.

 

[Romz]

Yesterday's unfortunate tragedy has definitely brought up a lot of discussion regarding gun control/laws. A lot of people don't usually think about physicians arming themselves with weapons, but the school shooting in Connecticut made me think back to an episode of "Untold Stories of the ER" that I saw a while back.

In this episode, a group of armed gang members rushed one of their members who was seriously wounded to the ER. They held the staff hostage and told them that they would kill them if they could not save their friend. The ER physician calmly pleaded with them telling them that they did everything they could to save him, and made them understand that nothing could be done... The gang members never ended up hurting any of the hospital staff.

Since some physicians, especially ED doctors in urban areas, come into contact with people from all forms of life, do you think that they should arm themselves in case of a situation like above or some other deranged individual trying to harm others with a weapon?

Wow, this is a pretty thought provoking question.

I believe an adequately armed security team would suffice. Let's presume the doctors would have been armed. If they were held hostage, I don't think a physician would pull out his firearm to take on the entire gang. Even if the lot of physicians had firearms, I don't really picture a gunfight going down in the OR... It should be the responsibility of the security team to protect the practicing physicians in their respective quarters...a physician shouldn't have to worry about pulling out a gun to save his life at work.

Of course, easier said than done.

 

[Barcu]

No. Have security instead.

Most people aren't trained to handle these situations. Even if you are the best shot on a gun range, you can't predict how you will react under fire. Which is why police officers and military undergo intense training.

Arming doctors (or more people in general) is not the answer.

 

[487806]

Yesterday's unfortunate tragedy has definitely brought up a lot of discussion regarding gun control/laws. A lot of people don't usually think about physicians arming themselves with weapons, but the school shooting in Connecticut made me think back to an episode of "Untold Stories of the ER" that I saw a while back.

In this episode, a group of armed gang members rushed one of their members who was seriously wounded to the ER. They held the staff hostage and told them that they would kill them if they could not save their friend. The ER physician calmly pleaded with them telling them that they did everything they could to save him, and made them understand that nothing could be done... The gang members never ended up hurting any of the hospital staff.

Since some physicians, especially ED doctors in urban areas, come into contact with people from all forms of life, do you think that they should arm themselves in case of a situation like above or some other deranged individual trying to harm others with a weapon?

I support an armed security, with the right to shoot down the attacking gunman.

 

[Hemorrage]

if someone was about to kill me or one of my co-workers i would gladly grab a scalpel and give them hell.. that being said, i don't think patients will be too inclined to have doctors running around with guns.. sort of contradictory.

 

[Geebeejay]

Having a bunch of untrained, armed physicians that may or may not have any good instinctive danger or defensive sense is a bad idea. If some dude rolls into the ED with a gun, and he sees all these physicians reaching for their sidearms and ankle holsters, how do you think he'll react?

In a post-apocalyptic zombie world, then sure....arm up those docs.

 

[hobbity]

I also agree that having armed security is the better option.

The ER I shadowed at required people to go through security and a metal detector before going in. I don't know if the ER mentioned in this case had one - but I'd imagine that it would help in urban areas.

 

[bob99]

Seriously???? Armed Guards?? how many of you guys have actually felt safe around hospital security. Every single hospital iv worked in, the guards were a bunch of brainless people who where basically direction givers with uniforms. I think the OP meant having physicians trained for these situations, not just giving out guns to anyone with a medical license.

 

[Propylene]

"Let me just grab my stethoscope here.... Oops!"

I think I'll leave the handguns for someone else

 

[Geebeejay]

Seriously???? Armed Guards?? how many of you guys have actually felt safe around hospital security. Every single hospital iv worked in, the guards were a bunch of brainless people who where basically direction givers with uniforms. I think the OP meant having physicians trained for these situations, not just giving out guns to anyone with a medical license.

Lol yeah, let's take medical school, which is already tough, and add combat training to it. And we can add that to the tuition. Patients will have to suck it up and deal with the lack of comfort when a doctor busts into their room with a piece.

Makes way more sense than arming up security guards who are already trained in combat, many of which have served in the military, and are also trained on specific hospital tactical defense scenarios already.

 

[Barcu]

Seriously???? Armed Guards?? how many of you guys have actually felt safe around hospital security. Every single hospital iv worked in, the guards were a bunch of brainless people who where basically direction givers with uniforms. I think the OP meant having physicians trained for these situations, not just giving out guns to anyone with a medical license.

Not feasible and would take too much time. If you want to be trained to use weapons, join the military or become a cop. As I said before, this isn't just about having the proficiency to shoot a weapon. Training for actual firefights is much different and much more intense. It is something that doctors should not do as part of their training.

 

[La Presse]

All physicians SHOULD be armed--with knowledge, that is. I'd be too scared to enter a doc's office if I knew they'd have guns...but perhaps scalpels?

 

[mokhoras]

.

 

[pre med 2014]

Seriously???? Armed Guards?? how many of you guys have actually felt safe around hospital security. Every single hospital iv worked in, the guards were a bunch of brainless people who where basically direction givers with uniforms. I think the OP meant having physicians trained for these situations, not just giving out guns to anyone with a medical license.

How's the view from your high horse?

 

[mzarrowsmith]

Yesterday's unfortunate tragedy has definitely brought up a lot of discussion regarding gun control/laws. A lot of people don't usually think about physicians arming themselves with weapons, but the school shooting in Connecticut made me think back to an episode of "Untold Stories of the ER" that I saw a while back.

In this episode, a group of armed gang members rushed one of their members who was seriously wounded to the ER. They held the staff hostage and told them that they would kill them if they could not save their friend. The ER physician calmly pleaded with them telling them that they did everything they could to save him, and made them understand that nothing could be done... The gang members never ended up hurting any of the hospital staff.

Since some physicians, especially ED doctors in urban areas, come into contact with people from all forms of life, do you think that they should arm themselves in case of a situation like above or some other deranged individual trying to harm others with a weapon?

Does someone have to be a "deranged individual" to get violent in an emotional situation?

I've never been in an ED that didn't have armed security. I wouldn't want a cop as my doctor and I don't want a doctor as my cop.

 

[EndersRebutal]

I'm all for the right to open carry and conceal and carry by citizens who take the time to inform and train themselves on how to effectively and safely operate a firearms. I don't know If I'd go so far as issue weapons to doctors but allowing those few doctors with permits the right to conceal and carry on hospital property would ease my mind if I was in a inner city hospital.

 

[Renaissance Man]

I support an armed security, with the right to shoot down the attacking gunman.

Well yes, it would be pretty useless to have an armed security guard who couldn't shoot.

The hospitals that I have worked at or gone to school at all had armed security guards. There are bikes and golf carts constantly patrolling campus and at night near the entrances/parking lots.

 

[Black Mamba24]

Yesterday's unfortunate tragedy has definitely brought up a lot of discussion regarding gun control/laws. A lot of people don't usually think about physicians arming themselves with weapons, but the school shooting in Connecticut made me think back to an episode of "Untold Stories of the ER" that I saw a while back.

In this episode, a group of armed gang members rushed one of their members who was seriously wounded to the ER. They held the staff hostage and told them that they would kill them if they could not save their friend. The ER physician calmly pleaded with them telling them that they did everything they could to save him, and made them understand that nothing could be done... The gang members never ended up hurting any of the hospital staff.

Since some physicians, especially ED doctors in urban areas, come into contact with people from all forms of life, do you think that they should arm themselves in case of a situation like above or some other deranged individual trying to harm others with a weapon?

I remember this episode, which is weird because I'm pretty sure this is the only episode that I've seen.

 

[eagles22]

I'm all for the right to open carry and conceal and carry by citizens who take the time to inform and train themselves on how to effectively and safely operate a firearms. I don't know If I'd go so far as issue weapons to doctors but allowing those few doctors with permits the right to conceal and carry on hospital property would ease my mind if I was in a inner city hospital.

Carrying a weapon involves being aware of it at all times and being able to prevent someone from taking it from you to use it against you or someone else. You need to consider the mechanics of practicing medicine. No way a doctor can focus on his job and also worry if someone is going to sneak up behind him and steal his gun. You don't have to worry about someone stealing your gun if you don't have one.

 

[Shenanigan]

The clinical lab I work in is the same building as the ER. The guards half the time are chatting it up with hospital staff, or are reading a newspaper/looking at their phones. Half the time they don't even look up when I come in the building...not even a peek to see if I have an ID as I walk passed.

I highly doubt they're ex-military, or at least military that have seen combat. Also, I don't think hospital security guards get combat training. There are courses at gun ranges (Act 235 in PA) that cost ~300 bucks and about 8 hours of training with firearms to be certified to carry a weapon as a security guard. 12 hours of training=/= combat training.

http://www.securityguardtraininghq.com/need-school-become-security-guard/


I'm not saying we arm every physician or teach "combat training" in medical school. If hospitals offered certification to physicians who were willing to train properly and keep up with proficiency (practicing at the range and doing drills) I would support it. They wouldn't open carry, that would be counterproductive. It would need to be concealed carry. More law abiding citizens than you think walk around every day concealed carrying. Criminals would be less likely to commit crime if they thought someone they were robbing/assaulting was going to shoot back.

These monsters target places that are firearm free zones. The CO shooter went far from his home to the only movie theater that was a firearm free zone in his area. The others closer to his home, and even bigger allowed firearms.

 

[487806]

Well yes, it would be pretty useless to have an armed security guard who couldn't shoot.

The hospitals that I have worked at or gone to school at all had armed security guards. There are bikes and golf carts constantly patrolling campus and at night near the entrances/parking lots.

I meant shoot on sight. When they see a gunman attacking crazily, the guards should just shoot and execute the gunman on the spot. Don't simply arrest him for all those court cases (as in the case of the Colorado theater incident).

 

[Geebeejay]

The clinical lab I work in is the same building as the ER. The guards half the time are chatting it up with hospital staff, or are reading a newspaper/looking at their phones. Half the time they don't even look up when I come in the building...not even a peek to see if I have an ID as I walk passed.

I highly doubt they're ex-military, or at least military that have seen combat. Also, I don't think hospital security guards get combat training. There are courses at gun ranges (Act 235 in PA) that cost ~300 bucks and about 8 hours of training with firearms to be certified to carry a weapon as a security guard. 12 hours of training=/= combat training.

http://www.securityguardtraininghq.com/need-school-become-security-guard/


I'm not saying we arm every physician or teach "combat training" in medical school. If hospitals offered certification to physicians who were willing to train properly and keep up with proficiency (practicing at the range and doing drills) I would support it. They wouldn't open carry, that would be counterproductive. It would need to be concealed carry. More law abiding citizens than you think walk around every day concealed carrying. Criminals would be less likely to commit crime if they thought someone they were robbing/assaulting was going to shoot back.

These monsters target places that are firearm free zones. The CO shooter went far from his home to the only movie theater that was a firearm free zone in his area. The others closer to his home, and even bigger allowed firearms.

Something tells me the guards aren't too worried about the clinical lab coming under automatic weapon fire.

I know most of the guards I work with pretty well, and most of them are ex-military. The security is heaviest in the ED floor (for obvious reasons) and the abortion clinic. There are two guards at the front door (3 sometimes), and a few more outside of the department. They're job is not to check IDs of obvious employees...that's what swipe cards are for. There are minimal guards at other entrances because anyone who wants can walk in because it's a hospital. At night, security increases and all staff must now show ID.

I know that our hospital has hundreds of scenarios for active shooter responses across the hospital, and that they are practiced frequently. I only know this because I was a part of a table top and practice drill (ED response....2 of our faculty members were a part of it, and that's it). I also know that most people who work in the hospital have zero idea that these protocols even exist. I also know that some (not many) of our guards are in fact armed.

Maybe you would be a better security guard than they are, but something tells me you'd also get pretty bored during an 8 hr shift at a desk where nothing happens day in and day out, and you might even feel obliged to (GASP!) read a newspaper, or (GASP!) talk to a colleague who's on patrol duty! They are not robots.

To address your later point...these shootings in Conn and Ala (and I would expect most shootings that would ever occur in a hospital) were committed by lunatics simply looking to kill people and cause terror. No one is going to go to a hospital to try and simply rob someone or assault....usually they are highly emotional or crazy, and looking for revenge or bloodshed. These shootings would happen regardless of whether or not the shooter knew people were carrying, and doctors drawing weapons on them would cause more harm than good. I own a firearm, but I would NEVER bring it to work, even if it were ok. Let's leave it to the professionals.

 

[EndersRebutal]

Carrying a weapon involves being aware of it at all times and being able to prevent someone from taking it from you to use it against you or someone else. You need to consider the mechanics of practicing medicine. No way a doctor can focus on his job and also worry if someone is going to sneak up behind him and steal his gun. You don't have to worry about someone stealing your gun if you don't have one.

I'm not a physician so I can't really say anything about the practice of medicine though I imagine this will depend greatly on the specialty. I will agree with you that when carrying one must take into account the risk of someone stealing your weapon and using it against you, but conceal and carry greatly reduces the risk not only because when done right no one will even know you have a gun but also because most holsters made for conceal and carry only allow the gun to be drawn a specific way reducing the chance of the wrong person drawing a weapon. That said conceal and carry is still a choice and I believe physicians should be given that choice especially if they work in dangerous areas.

 

[Doctor Strange]

I would not feel comfortable if I visited the ER and the physicians there were packing heat.

 

[KnuxNole]

I would not feel comfortable if I visited the ER and the physicians there were packing heat.

Unless they were packing a different kind of heat

 

[The Kraken]

There was a thread on the EM section about this exact question, before the shooting. Overwhelming conclusions:
1) There is no effective way to conceal in scrubs.
2) The possibility of being disarmed by an attacker and shot using your own weapon is greater than you first imagine.
3) A knife is more easily concealable.
4) Your biggest asset in a dangerous situations is your knowledge of people. If someone pulls a gun, give them the 20 opiate pills. It's not worth your life or someone else's to Wild West gun them down over pills. As a physician, you cannot possibly have the situational awareness to be packing when you're busy in the ED.

 

[Frazier]

The day that they armed med students is the day the pimping stopped.

 

[typicalindian]

The day that they armed med students is the day the pimping stopped.

 

[RomanTaylor]

As a vet, I ALWAYS think I should be armed.

 

[Barcu]

As a vet, I ALWAYS think I should be armed.

I tend to agree. But, do you feel that other people without your level of training should be armed? Would you say the same thing if they knew how to operate a firearm but have never been trained to use it in a real firefight?

 

[TipToad]

The idea that an armed civilian (a physician) would instantly be able to turn into Lara Croft or James Bond and stop somebody in an emergency is ludicrous to me.

 

[Perrotfish]

I tend to agree. But, do you feel that other people without your level of training should be armed? Would you say the same thing if they knew how to operate a firearm but have never been trained to use it in a real firefight?

I think that mostly people vastly overestimate the quantity and quality of firearms training that most military and police personel recieve.

 

[RomanTaylor]

I tend to agree. But, do you feel that other people without your level of training should be armed? Would you say the same thing if they knew how to operate a firearm but have never been trained to use it in a real firefight?

You know, sir, I am currently in a few Facebook fights (I know, I know) about this very thing. A lot of my friends feel that teachers should be armed to the teeth, quoting Israel as a model.

I absolutely do NOT believe that arming persons that have not undergone extensive training will have any mitigating effects on crime. It will do more harm than good. I could list the reasons, but I think this audience is smart enough to figure it out for yourselves, heh.

 

[RomanTaylor]

I think that mostly people vastly overestimate the quantity and quality of firearms training that most military and police personel recieve.

Whoe there. There are varying degrees of combat training in the military...let's just say that mine was as extensive as you would imagine

Also, it goes beyond that. There is a reason for all of the yelling and aggressiveness in military training. It's because there are few scenarios in life more stressful than combat, and it takes a certain something to stand up and return fire effectively. It's not a video game, and most civilians don't have it in them.

I would imagine that police training is similar, to a degree.

 

[Barcu]

I think that mostly people vastly overestimate the quantity and quality of firearms training that most military and police personel recieve.

I agree somewhat. But it's certainly better than most civilians have. I don't believe that putting more guns into the hands of people (any person) is going to lower crime, and most people probably pose a bigger risk to themselves than to other people. My point isn't that all off-duty veterans and police officers should be armed. But I wanted to emphasize that a veteran claiming they should be able to arm themselves is a lot different than making the argument that all people should be able to arm themselves.

You know, sir, I am currently in a few Facebook fights (I know, I know) about this very thing. A lot of my friends feel that teachers should be armed to the teeth, quoting Israel as a model.

I absolutely do NOT believe that arming persons that have not undergone extensive training will have any mitigating effects on crime. It will do more harm than good. I could list the reasons, but I think this audience is smart enough to figure it out for yourselves, heh.

I agree. I just wanted you to say it.

 

[RomanTaylor]

Glad I could oblige, lol.

 

[Geebeejay]

I think that mostly people vastly overestimate the quantity and quality of firearms training that most military and police personel recieve.

Our military and police officers may not be Jack Bauers, but they are a lot better trained than civilians. In the wake of incidents like this shooting, it is too easy to naively compare civilians with vets/cops in this way. Most of the relevant training has nothing to do with knowing how to shoot a gun (it is not hard to learn how to fire a weapon), but a maturity of how to wield a firearm, and how to approach or disarm an armed hostile, that this training yields. This isn't the movies...if a non-officer draws on an emotional, armed individual, he's going to go out blasting, and there will be casualties.

Either way, arming civilians to the teeth would be a mistake and a domestic and legal nightmare waiting to happen. Let the cops be the cops, security guards be the security, and you worry about being the doctor. You don't see cops pleading for advanced medical training and legal authorization to push meds or anything like that every time an officer dies in the field.

 

[Planes2Doc]

You know, sir, I am currently in a few Facebook fights (I know, I know) about this very thing. A lot of my friends feel that teachers should be armed to the teeth, quoting Israel as a model.

I absolutely do NOT believe that arming persons that have not undergone extensive training will have any mitigating effects on crime. It will do more harm than good. I could list the reasons, but I think this audience is smart enough to figure it out for yourselves, heh.

Speaking of Israel, I have been there twice before. On both occasions I saw people carrying large firearms all over the place. I think most people feel safer that way.

I've never been into an Israeli hospital, but I wonder if physicians are armed.

People bring up good points about whether physicians should be carrying weapons or not. If I were to receive a concealed handgun license (when it's finally legal in Illinois), I would see if it would be possible to carry one on the job, assuming I were to go into something like emergency medicine. Both hospitals that I volunteered at previously had unarmed security guards, but then again, they were not inner-city hospitals!

It's a very touchy subject, and it looks like most people are swinging to the direction of armed security. I think once I start rotations, I will see more of what it's like. But hopefully in the future we will never have to deal with a situation where we need to discuss this topic in hindsight.

 

[Geebeejay]

Speaking of Israel, I have been there twice before. On both occasions I saw people carrying large firearms all over the place. I think most people feel safer that way.

I've never been into an Israeli hospital, but I wonder if physicians are armed.

People bring up good points about whether physicians should be carrying weapons or not. If I were to receive a concealed handgun license (when it's finally legal in Illinois), I would see if it would be possible to carry one on the job, assuming I were to go into something like emergency medicine. Both hospitals that I volunteered at previously had unarmed security guards, but then again, they were not inner-city hospitals!

It's a very touchy subject, and it looks like most people are swinging to the direction of armed security. I think once I start rotations, I will see more of what it's like. But hopefully in the future we will never have to deal with a situation where we need to discuss this topic in hindsight.

I will put money on you never seeing a security guard draw a weapon. It just doesn't happen. I could only ever see it happening if shots have already been fired.

And if you carry as a physician in the ED, I wouldn't be surprised if a patient one day disarms you. I will hope and pray that I never have to work a single shift alongside an armed physician...that very idea is terrifying.

 

[Barcu]

Speaking of Israel, I have been there twice before. On both occasions I saw people carrying large firearms all over the place. I think most people feel safer that way.

I've never been into an Israeli hospital, but I wonder if physicians are armed.

People bring up good points about whether physicians should be carrying weapons or not. If I were to receive a concealed handgun license (when it's finally legal in Illinois), I would see if it would be possible to carry one on the job, assuming I were to go into something like emergency medicine. Both hospitals that I volunteered at previously had unarmed security guards, but then again, they were not inner-city hospitals!

It's a very touchy subject, and it looks like most people are swinging to the direction of armed security. I think once I start rotations, I will see more of what it's like. But hopefully in the future we will never have to deal with a situation where we need to discuss this topic in hindsight.

Speaking of Israel. If we had mandatory military service too, I would be less concerned with people carrying weapons since they have been previously trained.

I doubt you will be able to carry one on the job. Hospitals tend to be gun-free zones, mostly for the reasons described above (which is why you don't see many people armed). You are much more likely to be disarmed or have it go off by accident than actually needing it for self-defense. Even in the military this is true. While military docs are usually required to be armed while deployed, they lock up their guns upon entering the hospital. Guns and practicing medicine do not mix.

 

[Druggernaut]

There's a thread about this in the EM forum. I think someone posted that you'd be much more likely to get disarmed by a seemingly non-threatening patient and having the situation escalate than stopping a gunman. You're in way too many close-quarters situations with drunks for this to be a good idea. An emergency department I spent the summer in had a patient in police custody disarm an officer while being escorted to the bathroom and fire a round before a second officer could wrestle him to the ground. No way I'd trust a doctor to keep their weapon if the police can't do it.

The ED I worked in prior to medical school didn't have armed security guards, and the majority of them were pretty useless most of the time anyways. Our hospital system's bigger campus, which was also in one of the worst parts of the city, had some armed guards, and I'd imagine they were more up to snuff, but they also had a number of stooges. The ED entry was more secure, though, with locks on every door that had to be opened via a guard in the booth or a staff member's badge. I think it was the only way into the hospital at night. The big academic center, which was in a much nicer area but was also the city's only Level 1 trauma center (and thus, is where the police and EMS would bring the critically wounded gangbangers, though "homeboy ambulance" still dropped off elsewhere), had a security force that I think was at least partially armed, as well as a sheriff's substation just off the ambulance bay. There's a lot of variability to how well-fortified EDs are even in urban areas, but unless you're at a place like that big academic center, you're pretty vulnerable if someone decides to launch an assault (and even there, there'd likely be a fair number of casualties if someone came in firing).

I could get on board with a taser in the department, but arming physicians seems like a bad idea. If I was an ED physician and they'd allow me to carry a secured weapon in my bag that I'd stash at my workstation, I'd consider it, but hooking a holster on your scrubs seems like a recipe for disaster. Better to work on having a secure entrypoint and praying there aren't too many people in the waiting room if someone goes off.

 

[Geebeejay]

There's a thread about this in the EM forum. I think someone posted that you'd be much more likely to get disarmed by a seemingly non-threatening patient and having the situation escalate than stopping a gunman. You're in way too many close-quarters situations with drunks for this to be a good idea. An emergency department I spent the summer in had a patient in police custody disarm an officer while being escorted to the bathroom and fire a round before a second officer could wrestle him to the ground. No way I'd trust a doctor to keep their weapon if the police can't do it.

The ED I worked in prior to medical school didn't have armed security guards, and the majority of them were pretty useless most of the time anyways. Our hospital system's bigger campus, which was also in one of the worst parts of the city, had some armed guards, and I'd imagine they were more up to snuff, but they also had a number of stooges. The ED entry was more secure, though, with locks on every door that had to be opened via a guard in the booth or a staff member's badge. I think it was the only way into the hospital at night. The big academic center, which was in a much nicer area but was also the city's only Level 1 trauma center (and thus, is where the police and EMS would bring the critically wounded gangbangers, though "homeboy ambulance" still dropped off elsewhere), had a security force that I think was at least partially armed, as well as a sheriff's substation just off the ambulance bay. There's a lot of variability to how well-fortified EDs are even in urban areas, but unless you're at a place like that big academic center, you're pretty vulnerable if someone decides to launch an assault (and even there, there'd likely be a fair number of casualties if someone came in firing).

I could get on board with a taser in the department, but arming physicians seems like a bad idea. If I was an ED physician and they'd allow me to carry a secured weapon in my bag that I'd stash at my workstation, I'd consider it, but hooking a holster on your scrubs seems like a recipe for disaster. Better to work on having a secure entrypoint and praying there aren't too many people in the waiting room if someone goes off.

Docs with pepper spray I could maybe consider (only maybe)....but I think even tasers are a stretch, and there's no way I could get onboard with docs concealing guns, and i DO work in an inner city ED. So many things could go wrong so easily.

 

[FSU2013]

The day that they armed med students is the day the pimping stopped.

Outstanding.

 

[FSU2013]

How's the view from your high horse?

Really? You're telling me your hospital employs swat to protect the ED? I gotta side with the other guy - every hospital security guard I've ever met strikes fear in the heart of appx 0 potential criminals.

 

[Perrotfish]

Speaking of Israel. If we had mandatory military service too, I would be less concerned with people carrying weapons since they have been previously trained.

How would you feel about just incorporating a basic training in riflemanship into the standard American school curriculum? The actual time spend teaching military recruits to shoot, and even why to shoot, is a surprisingly short part of their overall education. Could a month of marksmanship and use of deadly force training, say after the senior year of high school, be a solution to at least the accidental gun deaths in this nation, if not the homicides?

I feel like we're at a crappy middle ground right now where we have universal access to guns, but we're just liberal enough that no one want to 'turn our children into killers', or whatever, by actually making americans learn to use the weapons they have such free access to.

 

[Perrotfish]

Really? You're telling me your hospital employs swat to protect the ED? I gotta side with the other guy - every hospital security guard I've ever met strikes fear in the heart of appx 0 potential criminals.

Assuming they exist at all. Try working in a children's hospital ED: they routinely don't employ any security at all because they 'don't want to scare the kids' (anything that costs money apparently scares children). So when you get your nightly child abuse case its up to you and three 4'5" nurses to make sure that 6'5" Dad doesn't carry junior out of the building before the cops arrive.

 

[cheesier]

How would you feel about just incorporating a basic training in riflemanship into the standard American public curriculum? The actual time spend teaching military recruits to shoot, and even why to shoot, is a surprisingly short part of their overall education. Could a month of marksmanship and use of deadly force training, say after the senior year of high school, be a solution to at least the accidental gun deaths in this nation, if not the homicides?

I feel like we're at a crappy middle ground right now where we have universal access to guns, but we're just liberal enough that no one want to 'turn our children into killers', or whatever, by actually making americans learn to use the weapons they have such free access to.

Not everyone wants to learn how to use a gun. I think it'd be much more reasonable to have rigorous training for anyone who purchases a gun for the first time, because if you buy a weapon for "protection" and have no idea how to properly use it, it's an accident waiting to happen.

 

[Geebeejay]

How would you feel about just incorporating a basic training in riflemanship into the standard American public curriculum? The actual time spend teaching military recruits to shoot, and even why to shoot, is a surprisingly short part of their overall education. Could a month of marksmanship and use of deadly force training, say after the senior year of high school, be a solution to at least the accidental gun deaths in this nation, if not the homicides?

I feel like we're at a crappy middle ground right now where we have universal access to guns, but we're just liberal enough that no one want to 'turn our children into killers', or whatever, by actually making americans learn to use the weapons they have such free access to.

Why don't we ask the government if they could pull some cash off of their money tree to train people who may or may not be or eventually become criminals on marksmanship and use of deadly force.

I'm still very confused as to how a terrible tragedy where children were gunned down has transformed a bunch of premeds/med students/residents into a counter terrorist unit.

 

[Geebeejay]

Assuming they exist at all. Try working in a children's hospital ED: they routinely don't employ any security at all because they 'don't want to scare the kids' (anything that costs money apparently scares children). So when you get your nightly child abuse case its up to you and three 4'5" nurses to make sure that 6'5" Dad doesn't carry junior out of the building before the cops arrive.

Wow you work with some mega-short nurses