Stay At Home Dad Looking For More

[TheTao]

My issue with you Nas, as amusing as you can be, is the soured presumptuousness in your statement noted above. It's your own soured projection that you are using as a rationalization for your audacious and insolent comments about what a person may want, why, and why they are wrong or right.

My opinion based on the tenor of the comments involving frequent use of the "F" word, is that the individual frequently using the "F" word, is not "F" word-ing nearly enough.

"Nuff said.

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[AlbinoHawk DO]

OP, honestly, it isn't worth it. You're in your mid-30s with a so-so GPA and haven't taken any prerequisites. Life is short. If I had small children and a wife, I wouldn't sacrifice my time and ability to be with them to be a doctor. There are other ways to make money or find something to fulfill your life.

 

[jl lin]

My opinion based on the tenor of the comments involving frequent use of the "F" word, is that the individual frequently using the "F" word, is not "F" word-ing nearly enough.

"Nuff said.

The F words are used to frequently anymore, they have really lost their shock value--and that's really the point of why such words are used.
F word is an impotent force. Better to articulate a strong position. Whatever.

 

[jl lin]

Alright. An honest opinion Albino. What really brought you to that POV? See, this is the thing that is most interesting, and a I think, honing in on your dissatisfaction is more productive to helping others when they ask these kinds of questions about medicine. I know you said time investment and family, etc, but that's too general, b/c different people have different situations and ways with coping with those issues. What was it/is it that brought you, specifically, to this perspective?

 

[TheTao]

The F words are used to frequently anymore, they have really lost their shock value--and that's really the point of why such words are used.
F word is an impotent force. Better to articulate a strong position. Whatever.

Impotent............. interesting choice of words, ROTFL!!!!

 

[TheTao]

OP, honestly, it isn't worth it. You're in your mid-30s with a so-so GPA and haven't taken any prerequisites. Life is short. If I had small children and a wife, I wouldn't sacrifice my time and ability to be with them to be a doctor. There are other ways to make money or find something to fulfill your life.

I agree with this for me, which is why I waited until small children/spouse were non issues.

Holy $hit, now I'm REALLY too old for med school!!!

 

[Snakes]

I agree with this for me, which is why I waited until small children/spouse were non issues.

Did you eat them?? :O

 

[TheTao]

Did you eat them?? :O

Naw not yet they're still around just older (YEAH!!) so the freedom I feel to pursue my dream at this point in my life is priceless!.

 

[jl lin]

I agree with this for me, which is why I waited until small children/spouse were non issues.

Holy $hit, now I'm REALLY too old for med school!!!

LOL. No winning here at SDN. LOL

Only baby neophytes in their young 20s or so. And they may be screwed too.

Wow, this whole general negativity here at SDN is a downer for the site.

Dear Lee,
Can you round up some happy trad and non-trad docs and get them to post?
The anti-medicine and anti-medical school spiels are becoming like wet, smelly, itchy blankets thrown all over SDN.

Even in other areas besides pre-med or non-trad. . .for example:

I like anesthesiologists, but I am avoiding snooping around anesthesiology forum as well--though sometimes there is some cool stuff over there; but it is b/c they seem to just feel like the sky is falling. I mean, it seems more negative at times on their forum then in the ED forum, where you know those docs are getting their butts whipped day and night in and out.

And maybe the sky is falling. I don't know. If the sky in medicine is falling, as a public service, perhaps SDN could post something related to the following:

If people are too old for med school. Post it and be done with it.

If people are young and want children/families and still want to go into medicine, post against that also.

Only folks left are those that are astoundingly special, and well above average in their late 20's or 30's, or those that are 21 or 22--where none of these folks have an interest in family or children, and hopefully they are w/o any debt and have full rides to medical school. Hmm. Sterilization might be an upcoming requirement for med school admission.

As for everyone else, you are screwed. Tao. We are screwed. LOL

Sheesh.

 

[QofQuimica]

My money is on age discrimination for why there aren't more 50 year old Interns.

Interesting take. On what evidence or anecdotal experience do you base that conclusion? My money is on the fact that so few people in their 40s apply to med school, hence producing very few 50-year-old interns further down the pipeline. As Snakes pointed out, most people in their 40s would rather buy a sports car for their mid life crisis than go to med school. It's certainly cheaper.

As for where I'm at in my training, let's just say that I'll be VERY middle aged when I'm done. So this perception that mental and thus learning diminishes as one gets older, is foreign to me. And I'm quite certain that I'm not the only oldpremed whose grades and test taking abilities improved significantly with age either. My "mile" improved too.

So you're a 40+-year-old premed. Ok, fair enough. Our perspectives are all colored by our personal experiences, and to paraphrase Upton Sinclair, it's difficult to get a man to understand something when his dream of med school depends upon his not understanding it. But grant me just the teensiest possibility that this might be harder for you to do now than it would have been 20 years ago, even if only because of all that age discrimination you're expecting to face.

And running one mile is a decent warmup, not an actual workout.

 

[QofQuimica]

Dear Lee,
Can you round up some happy trad and non-trad docs and get them to post?
The anti-medicine and anti-medical school spiels are becoming like wet, smelly, itchy blankets thrown all over SDN.

You know, jl lin, I'd argue that you're looking at the negativity wrong. It's like a public service. Because if someone is seriously dissuaded from going to med school based on posts they read on SDN, that tells you they weren't all that committed to it in the first place. I know when I was a premed that nothing anyone said here would have stopped me. I'd made up my mind to go to med school; it was a question of how and when to go about it, not if. And it takes that level of determination to get into (and through) med school and residency. For those who don't start out already having that as premeds, best for them to get off the other side of the fence before they waste their time and money. They're not going to suddenly find that internal purpose and meaning in it all when the going gets tough if they didn't have that within them to begin with.

Also, remember how you wanted premeds to have 2000+ clinical hours so they'd know what they were getting themselves into? Here's the next best thing: learning vicariously from someone else's mistakes. Definitely better than reinventing the wheel oneself, if one can manage it.

 

[TheTao]

But grant me just the teensiest possibility that this might be harder for you to do now than it would have been 20 years ago, even if only because of all that age discrimination you're expecting to face.

The reason why I'll continue to be an academic superstar now versus when I was in my 20s is because I now have a boatload of the one thing I didn't have much of in my 20s: SELF CONFIDENCE. Great test taking/study skills, stamina, and motivation are a given.

And since I'm targeting DO programs followed by a residency in a primary care field in a state that desperately needs Physicians, I'm not worried much at all about age discrimination. I'll either get accepted or I won't, and if I'm not successful after 2 cycles in the US, then I'll look forward to studying for my USMLE's from the shore of a beach in the Caribbean.

As for my mile "accomplishment", old track knee injuries are known to cause issues in middle age. So as long I don't need a double knee replacement during 3rd year and/or my depends don't start leaking on rounds during my Internship year, I'm good!

PS- I'm just a tad bit more than your average oldpremed. Like Ji Lin, I'm not stepping to the plate green about the medical field, but unlike Ji lin, I'm not a superstar ICU nurse.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Alright. An honest opinion Albino. What really brought you to that POV? See, this is the thing that is most interesting, and a I think, honing in on your dissatisfaction is more productive to helping others when they ask these kinds of questions about medicine. I know you said time investment and family, etc, but that's too general, b/c different people have different situations and ways with coping with those issues. What was it/is it that brought you, specifically, to this perspective?

I guess it depends on the person, but I certainly don't think the sacrifice is worth it. I'm barely in my first year, and after talking to people in later stages of this, the pressure and commitment compounds. It takes many years for your life to level itself (if ever). I think life is short and enjoying it and those you care about surpass whatever you get from a job. I understand some people don't feel that, and good for them. I know when I was a pre-med as a non-trad I couldn't appreciate the realities associated with actually walking down this road. I'm just glad that I know that I'm interested in psychiatry and that will give me a better life balance.

 

[Nasrudin]

I wish that emoticons got you a punch in the nuts. And F bombs were like punctuation marks.

 

[IlDestriero]

I think this number is a gross over-exaggeration of how many hours at a hospital you need to get an understanding of what it's like to work in the medical field.

What's an over-exaggeration?

 

[Snakes]

What's an over-exaggeration?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/over+exaggeration

But I assume you could have googled that yourself and are trying to point out that it seems redundant.

I've seen a lot of SDN handles, but never a guy named after an Italian mall. How did you come up with that one?

 

[TheTao]

I think a non trads perspective on what a career in the medical profession will be like depends on what they did before matriculating into med school. It seems to me that many nontrads switch into medicine from other high stress, stamina sapping fields like EMT or nursing, so their well developed coping mechanisms are already in place before they start. And I don't need to be a medical student to appreciate how much of an advantage that affords during med school training.

 

[jl lin]

The reason why I'll continue to be an academic superstar now versus when I was in my 20s is because I now have a boatload of the one thing I didn't have much of in my 20s: SELF CONFIDENCE. Great test taking/study skills, stamina, and motivation are a given.

And since I'm targeting DO programs followed by a residency in a primary care field in a state that desperately needs Physicians, I'm not worried much at all about age discrimination. I'll either get accepted or I won't, and if I'm not successful after 2 cycles in the US, then I'll look forward to studying for my USMLE's from the shore of a beach in the Caribbean.

As for my mile "accomplishment", old track knee injuries are known to cause issues in middle age. So as long I don't need a double knee replacement during 3rd year and/or my depends don't start leaking on rounds during my Internship year, I'm good!

PS- I'm just a tad bit more than your average oldpremed. Like Ji Lin, I'm not stepping to the plate green about the medical field, but unlike Ji lin, I'm not a superstar ICU nurse.

Hell, I am not saying I'm a superstar. I just think that the negativity gets a little bit much here sometimes. I think people should vent. I am all for it. Those suffering through the struggles of residency should go hog wild venting their many and various frustrations. They deserve that!

At the same time, there is line on which you must be careful not to give people this "throw out the baby with the bath water" mentality. Why? You aren't helping them. Give a balanced perspective, and save the rest for the residency thread, where you can vent with others of whom can directly relate with your experiences. It's kind of dogged to just crap on everyone's aspirations. Do you really think a lot of non-trads don't know about the crappy aspects of how hard life can be, or even how hard dedication to the career of medicine can be?

So Nas, as cool as he is, needs to moderate that IMHO. B!tch and moan in the residency thread. But don't keep flogging the whole idea. Give people a balance in perspective, and LET THEM MAKE THE CALL FOR THEMSELVES, period.

 

[jl lin]

I think this number is a gross over-exaggeration of how many hours at a hospital you need to get an understanding of what it's like to work in the medical field.

Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't. I am not the guru on this. My suggestion is to get a lot, I mean a lot of direct, clinical exposure over time. Take it as you will. Do what you will with it. I think in doing this, you are doing yourself a huge favor. If not, find out later. Some people say forewarned is forearmed. It's like history, and how people refuse to see the value of history, which is to learn for the mistakes of others. Too many people are neglecting the value of history and the close study of it.

People can do what they want; but you really need to get a very strong sense of what you are getting into, so that when you are boggled down with tomes of medical science information, which you think may or may not be pertinent, except for some test, you can plow your way through it, b/c you know that what you are doing and going to do, is worth it. I submit, too many people don't. And this is why I say up the direct, clinical exposure to a number as high as is possible for you, b/c in the end, you have to be in a good position to evaluate, even in retrospect in medical school, if it is really something you want to do, you have counted the costs, and it's worth it to you.

 

[jl lin]

You know, jl lin, I'd argue that you're looking at the negativity wrong. It's like a public service. Because if someone is seriously dissuaded from going to med school based on posts they read on SDN, that tells you they weren't all that committed to it in the first place. I know when I was a premed that nothing anyone said here would have stopped me. I'd made up my mind to go to med school; it was a question of how and when to go about it, not if. And it takes that level of determination to get into (and through) med school and residency. For those who don't start out already having that as premeds, best for them to get off the other side of the fence before they waste their time and money. They're not going to suddenly find that internal purpose and meaning in it all when the going gets tough if they didn't have that within them to begin with.

Also, remember how you wanted premeds to have 2000+ clinical hours so they'd know what they were getting themselves into? Here's the next best thing: learning vicariously from someone else's mistakes. Definitely better than reinventing the wheel oneself, if one can manage it.

There is a place for frustration. It's called the residency thread. Otherwise, balance your responses, and once more, let the individual draw their own conclusions.

As far as learning from the mistakes of others, well, that is the vital purpose in studying history. Guess how many people actually value the study of history? It is getting less and less, and this makes me quite sad.

I'm saying, be balanced in these other threads. Save the vents for the residency forum or a similar forum--these people can most relate with what you are venting about anyway. Do this b/c it's really not helping people as you think it may be to take the one-sided, negative approach in these other forums. NO. Truly, it is not. Be balanced, and let people make their own decisions. Use the power to influence wisely is what I am saying.

 

[HoboCommander]

Thread title is misleading.

 

[chooks]

@jlin You make an assumption that all clinical exposure is equally good or instructive. We have all been on teams that are toxic or not a good representation of professional interactions or the field as a whole.

To get back to the OP and away from the subjective arguments about the "best" way to figure out if a career change (any career change!) is right, the overarching principle is that you need to have a process to figure out if the switch is best for you. The right process is subjective. For some it is a boat load of pre-clinical hours. For me, my first clinical exposure at 18 convinced me not to go into medicine for 14 years. When I finally had the nerve to re-examine medicine as a career I did it in a very stepwise fashion which included some, but not much clinical exposure (maybe 40 hours of ED volunteering). I viewed the MCAT, pre-reqs, applications, interviewing as all steps to help educate me on what I wanted to do and gave myself the freedom to stop at any point in the process. I didn't really feel like I needed to go to med school until about 6 months before matriculation. But once I was decided I was 100% committed. As a final year resident I am far from burned out and still walk around the hospital amazed at where I am at and pretty stoked that I am a doc.

And that OP is the nut in shell -- you need to figure out what is the best way to make sure that you are 100% committed. But hopefully you know yourself well enough to understand how you make large important decisions and to create a process for deciding if the sacrifices (many as they are) are worth it for you personally.

- chooks

 

[jl lin]

@jlin You make an assumption that all clinical exposure is equally good or instructive.
We have all been on teams that are toxic or not a good representation of professional interactions or the field as a whole.

To get back to the OP and away from the subjective arguments about the "best" way to figure out if a career change (any career change!) is right, the overarching principle is that you need to have a process to figure out if the switch is best for you. The right process is subjective. For some it is a boat load of pre-clinical hours. For me, my first clinical exposure at 18 convinced me not to go into medicine for 14 years. When I finally had the nerve to re-examine medicine as a career I did it in a very stepwise fashion which included some, but not much clinical exposure (maybe 40 hours of ED volunteering). I viewed the MCAT, pre-reqs, applications, interviewing as all steps to help educate me on what I wanted to do and gave myself the freedom to stop at any point in the process. I didn't really feel like I needed to go to med school until about 6 months before matriculation. But once I was decided I was 100% committed. As a final year resident I am far from burned out and still walk around the hospital amazed at where I am at and pretty stoked that I am a doc.

And that OP is the nut in shell -- you need to figure out what is the best way to make sure that you are 100% committed. But hopefully you know yourself well enough to understand how you make large important decisions and to create a process for deciding if the sacrifices (many as they are) are worth it for you personally.

- chooks

Actually I didn't make that assumption at all. In fact, I stated in this thread and the other like it, more than once, that the quality of clinical experiences and the benefit of having them over a long period of time (meaning not just over a month or three) is important. You just can't get a good perspective w/o the right kind of direct, clinical exposure--a variation in exposure, spread over time. If you go into a direct clinical experience for a short period of time and not over a prolonged period of time, you are more likely to get a skewed view of things.

People are setting themselves up for huge disappointment in many cases, unless they get good clinical exposure over time. But hey. If people think they can get some time in there and wing through--bc their end game is to just have enough to get into med school--that will be their sorry mistake in many cases. The goal for clinical exposure shouldn't be about some hoop to jump through. It's about getting some good insight as to what you are getting into for a VERY long time.

But there is something to what you sated:

"We have all been on teams that are toxic or not a good representation of professional interactions or the field as a whole." To this I say, this more reason to get a good variety of direct, clinical exposure over time.
But it is important to see the sad truth that comes up during these experiences. I mean scholastics and learning to keep your mouth shut shouldn't be the main requirements for succeeding in medicine--that is, if you really give a crap about patients and their families.

Personally, I think the ability to have sensitivity and a sense of empathy should be vitally important for working in medicine; but it gets hairy in terms of how you evaluate it. A big part of medicine is about numbers/grades and the ability to keep your mouth shut. The latter is a bit unnerving; b/c talking things out can be good for problem-solving--depending on the situation. It depends, so, it's not always a good idea. Knowing when to speak up and not to can be a challenge--even when you are trying to put the patient first. But I disagree with the whole notion of not pissing someone higher up in hierarchy in order to preserve your place in medical school, residency, or a medical career--b/c you may come into conflict with certain ethical concerns.
Bottom line is to pick your battles VERY carefully; but don't be a wuss when a patient needs you to advocate or step up--b/c it's either about the patients or it is not. When clout and ego are more important than the patients, then there is some serious dissimulation at play. There comes a point when you just can't have it both ways, and you have to have the moral courage to stand and face the fire. But God help you that you judged your approach right. Have you read the book, "Learning to Play God?"
Exposure to this kind of thing, whilst also exposing oneself to acutely and critically ill patients and their families can help you see if you have the desire to contend with the inherent conflicts in healthcare. If after a good amount of exposure over time you are still saying it is worth all the studying, loss of sleep, time, and money, then you may be in good shape by the time you become an attending.

 

[BHB2008]

@jl lin I'm assuming you're a big big fan of talking things out.

 

[jl lin]

@jl lin I'm assuming you're a big big fan of talking things out.

Depends. Sometime yes. Sometimes no. Many life-lessons on that.

 

[ridethecliche]

I wasn't referring to keeping up with the kids in the sense of their inherent pace. Like it or not, you have to keep up with the pace of medical training for a minimum of seven years from start to finish. That's a lot easier to do for the 25-year-olds. Most of those 50-year-olds in medicine aren't interns. There's a good reason for that.

Out of curiosity, how old are you, and where are you at in your medical training? I'm about to turn 40 and just finished residency a few months ago. So I wasn't exactly 25 when I went through this whole process. I'm also someone who runs regularly, about to enter the masters runner division with 20+ years of road racing experience. I don't think anyone my age can deny having slowed down a bit compared to where they were at 10-20 years prior. I may race smarter at 40, but I definitely don't run faster now than I did at 20 or 30.

Start cycling. I know guys in their 50's/60's that race. They still kick ass, but recovery is what hurts.

My money is on age discrimination for why there aren't more 50 year old Interns. I also don't think oldpremeds view medical training from a "like it or not perspective" as much as an attitude of "let's do this $hit" perspective.

As for where I'm at in my training, let's just say that I'll be VERY middle aged when I'm done. So this perception that mental and thus learning diminishes as one gets older, is foreign to me. And I'm quite certain that I'm not the only oldpremed whose grades and test taking abilities improved significantly with age either. My "mile" improved too.

Med school for older folks is NOT like expecting a 50-something Michael Jordan to dunk on Lebron James EVERY quarter in a 4 quarter game. So this idea among younger people that it is,is just ridiculous.

Doctors have been known to overestimate their skills.