Travel nursing vs Doctor

[Select All That Apply]

I agree with that you're saying, my point is that I wouldn't be a nurse because I wouldn't want to be in a spot where I need to make sure both the people working above and below me are not doing something that will screw up my patient. I also know I have the capability to be a physician and I want to have the biggest impact I can to help my patients. Those are both major reasons why I'm saying I would rather be a doctor than a nurse.

You have people above you and below you as a physician. I'm also not sure why you're telling me that you think you're going to be a capable physician as a pre-med. I don't care or see how that is remotely relevant to this conversation as I never used ad-homs in any capacity. Everything I've written is my thoughts as a nurse. I don't benefit at all from continuing this conversation. You can reply to me again, but I'm not going to respond any more.

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[ToliBro]

Hospitals should really push for much larger salaries for their local nurses too. There's a lot of incidents where travel nurses don't get along with local nurses and critical cases keep getting pushed to local nurses who are overworked and underpaid

I'm a RN currently working travel to set aside money for pre med and keep the wifey happy while she finishes up professional schooling of her own. The hospital I keep a permanent staff job at announced a 2% raise for employees... right after they posted dozens of travel nurse spots paying 6k/4 shifts. The resulting explosion was... ahh... interesting.

The money isn't going to stay this high, but I do think it will stabilize at a higher rate than previously.

 

[Iamnew2]

115 an hour for a nurse. Nuts

that's insane - more than some doctors. clearly this is not sustainable so for those who think that this will be the norm don't be silly

 

[Iamnew2]

You're not making the right analogy. A travel nurse makes that much because they're a travel nurse. It's the same for a travel doc (aka locums). I can spend two weeks in BF Montana and make $30-40K easy, but my regular job will only pay me $250K a year which comes out to like $125/hr.

This is ridiculous guys. I remember the days when ER was in shortage and they were making 400k plus easily. There is a staffing shortage now - my local Frito lays chips company is paying 20 bucks plus signing bonus, etc. It's not normal. Nurses are needed desperately bc everyone wants to be an nP or cosmetic nurse. At some point the shortage will cease. Rates will go back to normal. Don't pick a profession based on the up. When I was talking to one of my NPs in IL who I supervised, she was telling me that nurses are making in the 40-50's in IL normally. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking that these rates will last. That would mean that physicians would want to make 600k then - not sustainable for anyone. Let's go back ot reality guys.

 

[Mass Effect]

This is ridiculous guys. I remember the days when ER was in shortage and they were making 400k plus easily. There is a staffing shortage now - my local Frito lays chips company is paying 20 bucks plus signing bonus, etc. It's not normal. Nurses are needed desperately bc everyone wants to be an nP or cosmetic nurse. At some point the shortage will cease. Rates will go back to normal. Don't pick a profession based on the up. When I was talking to one of my NPs in IL who I supervised, she was telling me that nurses are making in the 40-50's in IL normally. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking that these rates will last. That would mean that physicians would want to make 600k then - not sustainable for anyone. Let's go back ot reality guys.

I was talking pre-pandemic. Don't discount locums work in very rural areas. They pay a fortune especially if you go over the holidays.

 

[Iamnew2]

I was talking pre-pandemic. Don't discount locums work in very rural areas. They pay a fortune especially if you go over the holidays.

Yes rural areas - where no one wants to be in. Reason why many rural hospitals shut down - unaffordable rates. But that's the exception. thinking that you are going to be making bank as a nurse for the entirety of your life is not realistic - and certainly not in big cities. You will be set up for disappointment. This is the same fallacy medical residents make when they project the ideal scenario and pay for the rest of their career during an up - that eventually comes and crashes down. Things are cyclical. Yes in super remote areas you can do well. But that's transient even there. Just trying ot make you see that its important to look at realistic scenarios vs. best case scenario.

 

[Mass Effect]

Yes rural areas - where no one wants to be in. Reason why many rural hospitals shut down - unaffordable rates. But that's the exception. thinking that you are going to be making bank as a nurse for the entirety of your life is not realistic - and certainly not in big cities. You will be set up for disappointment. This is the same fallacy medical residents make when they project the ideal scenario and pay for the rest of their career during an up - that eventually comes and crashes down. Things are cyclical. Yes in super remote areas you can do well. But that's transient even there. Just trying ot make you see that its important to look at realistic scenarios vs. best case scenario.

You understand I'm an attending physician and the comment you're responding to said: "It's the same for a travel doc (aka locums). I can spend two weeks in BF Montana and make $30-40K easy,"

I never said that anyone was making the big bucks like that in pre-pandemic Los Angeles. Just that no one should become a nurse for money. I think you're misreading/misunderstanding the posts and trying to right something that doesn't need it.

 

[Iamnew2]

You understand I'm an attending physician and the comment you're responding to said: "It's the same for a travel doc (aka locums). I can spend two weeks in BF Montana and make $30-40K easy,"

I never said that anyone was making the big bucks like that in pre-pandemic Los Angeles. Just that no one should become a nurse for money. I think you're misreading/misunderstanding the posts and trying to right something that doesn't need it.

Sorry I might have replied to the wrong post! I meant to respond to the nursing delusions that all nurses are going to be making like 300k a year long term.

 

[ToliBro]

Sorry I might have replied to the wrong post! I meant to respond to the nursing delusions that all nurses are going to be making like 300k a year long term.

Yeah no, this is temporary. It might last well into 2022, but eventually the hardest hit states will have hospitals getting their lobbyists to propose bills that block people from traveling within their home state. There's a lot of people that just added 50 miles to their commute and aren't truly traveling, and will return to staff jobs if they're required to actually leave the state to make the big bucks. COVID will eventually die down as well and the emergency directives from state licensing boards that will temporarily accept any state license as valid will lapse.

 

[Mad Jack]

Why be a travel nurse making 200k when you can be a travel doc making three times as much?

 

[Iamnew2]

Yeah no, this is temporary. It might last well into 2022, but eventually the hardest hit states will have hospitals getting their lobbyists to propose bills that block people from traveling within their home state. There's a lot of people that just added 50 miles to their commute and aren't truly traveling, and will return to staff jobs if they're required to actually leave the state to make the big bucks. COVID will eventually die down as well and the emergency directives from state licensing boards that will temporarily accept any state license as valid will lapse.

And the nursing programs will pump out nurses like no tomorrow. Just like residency programs increase in times when there are shortages, then grads can't find jobs, then no one goes into that specialty, there is a shortage, some people who graduate in the shortage time make big bucks, and then the circle goes around again. I point to ER because I remember how hot it was years ago, and today I read an article about how ER grads can't find jobs. Not sure if that's true but the point is that things are cyclical. Everything that goes up must come down...

 

[Proudfather94]

Yeah no, this is temporary. It might last well into 2022, but eventually the hardest hit states will have hospitals getting their lobbyists to propose bills that block people from traveling within their home state. There's a lot of people that just added 50 miles to their commute and aren't truly traveling, and will return to staff jobs if they're required to actually leave the state to make the big bucks. COVID will eventually die down as well and the emergency directives from state licensing boards that will temporarily accept any state license as valid will lapse.

I think hospitals might try to lobby to get laws passed that would require nurses to work so many hours a year in a hospital to renew their license. They could push some bs about them needing to maintain their bedside skills in case there is another pandemic. This would pull nurses from clinics and other non hospital positions which would increase nursing supply and reduce the need to hire travelers. This would allow hospitals to leverage power over nurses and make them sign contracts for more hours than necessary or else they lose their license.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Your wife be trippin bro.

When I was a nurse it definately seemed that any mistake could be pinned on you and a reason for firing. I dont think physicians are the same level of 'replacable' as RNs at all. Floor RNs are veiwed as commodities by most admins. Docs due to length of training are not. Even during residency we are hard to replace, especially as training level increases.
If they can get away with replacing us with NPs we will be in trouble tho.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

I think hospitals might try to lobby to get laws passed that would require nurses to work so many hours a year in a hospital to renew their license. They could push some bs about them needing to maintain their bedside skills in case there is another pandemic. This would pull nurses from clinics and other non hospital positions which would increase nursing supply and reduce the need to hire travelers. This would allow hospitals to leverage power over nurses and make them sign contracts for more hours than necessary or else they lose their license.

No way this could ever pass. Thats pure FUD.

 

[Proudfather94]

No way this could ever pass. Thats pure FUD.

They could frame it as a way to improve nurse patient ratios as well as being necessary to help patients in the hospital. Resistance to it would then be looked at as the nurses being greedy.

 

[Select All That Apply]

This is ridiculous guys. I remember the days when ER was in shortage and they were making 400k plus easily. There is a staffing shortage now - my local Frito lays chips company is paying 20 bucks plus signing bonus, etc. It's not normal. Nurses are needed desperately bc everyone wants to be an nP or cosmetic nurse. At some point the shortage will cease. Rates will go back to normal. Don't pick a profession based on the up. When I was talking to one of my NPs in IL who I supervised, she was telling me that nurses are making in the 40-50's in IL normally. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking that these rates will last. That would mean that physicians would want to make 600k then - not sustainable for anyone. Let's go back ot reality guys.

You are being low balled in terms of nurses earning 40k-50k in 2021. According to BLS data that constitutes the lowest 10% based on job survey data. The reality is that frictional unemployment is always in play in any economy and the current demand for travel contract healthcare workers is pushing new all time highs with the rampaging needs of the pandemic. Flexible nurses within healthcare systems were already rewarded with substantial pay bonuses within a system by working for a float pool (any unit) and even more so if they were willing to work any hospital. Traveling is simply the epitome of flexibility with nurses being willing to work any hospital, any situation, any time of day with hospitals being incredibly bad at managing logistics for retention, hiring, and management of staff. Anecdotally worked at a hospital for six months that had a staffing department using a faulty SMS text system that carried over so much spaghetti coding (text gibberish) that we couldn't tell what days needed to be covered (the message would never list a date because the spaghetti code took up the entire message).

These crazy salaries fit an unfortunate narrative indicated by CPI data that inescapable essential commodities like energy have risen 25% over the last 12 months with 42.7% of the increase coming from gasoline prices. With foreign markets recently in turmoil and national trillion dollar budget plans being proposed for improving multiple sectors of the economy, it's not surprising if inflationary trends do not just continue but end up exploding with many of the recent proposals marking the final end to any hope for representatives who recognize the need for conservative fiscal policy in light of a country increasingly dependent on high debt, low interest rates, and a fed reserve that wants to induce more inflation in the US.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

They could frame it as a way to improve nurse patient ratios as well as being necessary to help patients in the hospital. Resistance to it would then be looked at as the nurses being greedy.

You forget nursing lobbies are actually good at what they do, and many nurses are in unions. If what you were describing was acgme and residents, completly plausible, but not nursing at the state level.

 

[Proudfather94]

You forget nursing lobbies are actually good at what they do, and many nurses are in unions. If what you were describing was acgme and residents, completly plausible, but not nursing at the state level.

That's a fair point the nursing union at my hospital is a major thorn in the admins side from what I've heard. Do you think physicians in these areas where travel nurses are getting paid so much will demand a higher pay in return?

 

[Ganon]

Most nurses don't lose their licenses because of a physician's mistake unless there is some egregious aspect that they should have caught.

If a physician doesn't check the patient's labs before ordering sux for an RSI and the patient's K was 6 and they die, it's true that the RN likely committed the action that killed the patient, and it's true that they *should* know to check first... It's still the physician who ordered the medication who will be held to the highest standard.

The reasons why are multifactorial:
1. Most RNs don't carry malpractice insurance. We have nothing worth suing for, so lawyers don't even take the case for the majority of issues. Without external forces, nurses often don't get attacked to lose their licenses.

2. Physicians are held to a higher standard for conduct and practice, even when compared to Nurse Practitioners who are working the "same" job (smirk). There is tons of legal precedent for this that you can check out.. It's very interesting that midlevels want independent practice and claim parity but are not held to the same standards when sued. That needs to change in my opinion.

As to the actual topic at hand here, I'll say this: I'm an MS4 and a covid RN who makes >3x/hr what I made prior to medical school. It's honestly kind of sickening to think about how insanely hard I used to work for a fraction of the money, when I'm paid almost luxuriously at this point... But even if my current rate of pay were to stay, I wouldn't continue nursing. I'm interviewing IM, and really love learning pathophys and medicine in general. Slingin' Remdesivir is easy enough, but it isn't particularly stimulating. Taking care of COVID Patients (which is where most of the best contracts are) isn't really... challenging from a brain perspective. The outcomes suck. The treatments suck. The only challenge is trying to take decent care of patients with not enough staff, and that isn't the kind of challenge that is fun.

The challenge is more like this:
You've got a 400-pounder proned who's eyes are swelling shut, and you are late in flipping them because you have no help and can't physically turn such a large habitus.

Now imagine that you know *blindness* is a side effect of proning for too long, and your stomach drops as you beg some other nurse who's patient is crashing to please come throw their back out with you so we can save the vision of this dude who will probably be dead in a week anyway.

Oh, and now your Levo is dry and his BP is crashing. Gotta' grab that first.... It's out in the Pyxis. Gotta' call pharmacy. Oh, they're swamped and have to send a tech "whenever they can get to it" because the hospital closed down the unit's tube station....
Your other patient is on the call light. It's a glimmer of hope... You just extubated her against all odds this morning... You really needed some encouragement today, and hearing a success story might make this day better... You walk in the room:
"WHERE IS MY IVERMECTIN?! YOU'RE KEEPING ME SICK TO MAKE MONEY OFF ME! PLANDEMIC!!!"

hEaLtHcArE hErOeS indeed.

 

[Select All That Apply]

The challenge is more like this:
You've got a 400-pounder proned who's eyes are swelling shut, and you are late in flipping them because you have no help and can't physically turn such a large habitus.

Now imagine that you know *blindness* is a side effect of proning for too long, and your stomach drops as you beg some other nurse who's patient is crashing to please come throw their back out with you so we can save the vision of this dude who will probably be dead in a week anyway.

Oh, and now your Levo is dry and his BP is crashing. Gotta' grab that first.... It's out in the Pyxis. Gotta' call pharmacy. Oh, they're swamped and have to send a tech "whenever they can get to it" because the hospital closed down the unit's tube station....
Your other patient is on the call light. It's a glimmer of hope... You just extubated her against all odds this morning... You really needed some encouragement today, and hearing a success story might make this day better... You walk in the room:
"WHERE IS MY IVERMECTIN?! YOU'RE KEEPING ME SICK TO MAKE MONEY OFF ME! PLANDEMIC!!!"

hEaLtHcArE hErOeS indeed.

Sounds like a pretty chill shift to me. Out of curiosity, what's your flipping protocol? And also were you guys also experiencing a shortage of levophed? We were told there was a national shortage and ended up using Vazculep as an alternative pressor to replace it in viable patients for a small stretch of time. Have not yet encountered patients with significant vision issues following s/p proning and extubation so it's interesting to see that hospitals are making that a priority when it comes to their COVID patient population.

 

[group_theory]

I had to look up what Vazculep was since I didn't recognize the brand name (I know it by another brand name, but generally I use the generic name when I order/write my notes). Fortunately we never ran low on levophed. We were running low on propofol and fentanyl at one point

With prone, it's not so much the vision loss, but more the facial/periorbital edema (and pressure sores) since they are so 3rd spaced (and it's already a struggle to get them negative). Unless it's emergent, we try to schedule our pronation/supination in advance (and all around the same time) so the same group of nurses/CNA/RT can plan their day/night, and know when it is time to prone/supine ... then go room to room proning/supining. Of course there's the emergent prone due to refractory hypoxia, or emergent supine due to hemodynamic instability can occur but for the most part, most of our patients are on a schedule (and part of my morning round pow-wow with the charge nurse is deciding who needs to be prone/supine, and at what time). Clustering the scheduled prone/supine helps. It also lets me know when to be immediately available with airway equipment (and having the difficult airway cart on standby for some of these patients) when proning/supining.

 

[Ganon]

Sounds like a pretty chill shift to me. Out of curiosity, what's your flipping protocol? And also were you guys also experiencing a shortage of levophed? We were told there was a national shortage and ended up using Vazculep as an alternative pressor to replace it in viable patients for a small stretch of time. Have not yet encountered patients with significant vision issues following s/p proning and extubation so it's interesting to see that hospitals are making that a priority when it comes to their COVID patient population.

16 hours tummy time

We’ve had alternating shortages of just about everything, but I can’t say I specifically remember levo running out

I’ve used my own mask from day 1 because it’s better than the garbage duckbills they handed out when the good Kimberly Clarks ran out; the PPE shortages were real. Like, we washed nitrile gloves

 

[Splenda88]

Why be a travel nurse making 200k when you can be a travel doc making three times as much?

Lol... Opportunity cost.

 

[Iamnew2]

Lol... Opportunity cost.

Yeah how long is the 200k travel nurse going to last? and of all the travel nurses who make 200k they are in a very very small percentage.

 

[Mad Jack]

Lol... Opportunity cost.

The only thing I missed out on in training was a few less headaches, hours aren't that bad overall.

Meanwhile you can pull that travel doctor money forever while this pandemic will end that money for nurses once it is over

 

[Splenda88]

The only thing I missed out on in training was a few less headaches, hours aren't that bad overall.

Meanwhile you can pull that travel doctor money forever while this pandemic will end that money for nurses once it is over

I agree. I talked to a traveling doc the other day and he told me that he has been making 500K for over 15 yrs.

Pandemic is about to end so is the cash cow for nurses

 

[Iamnew2]

I agree. I talked to a traveling doc the other day and he told me that he has been making 500K for over 15 yrs.

Pandemic is about to end so is the cash cow for nurses

500k is great $, however not that challenging to make in Medicine with a little bit of smart negotiation and the right setting. I never thought I'd be making that and more in my field but alas. Medicine isn't that bad after residency. Residency blows though.

 

[Splenda88]

500k is great $, however not that challenging to make in Medicine with a little bit of smart negotiation and the right setting. I never thought I'd be making that and more in my field but alas. Medicine isn't that bad after residency. Residency blows though.

Are you in a high earning specialty? Most primary care docs would have to work crazy # of hour to make ~500k/yr

As a hospitalist, I would have to work 63.5 hrs/wk on average to make 500k/yr

 

[Iamnew2]

Are you in a high earning specialty? Most primary care docs would have to work crazy # of hour to make ~500k/yr

As a hospitalist, I would have to work 63.5 hrs/wk on average to make 500k/yr

I am not in a particularly high earning specialty. I have a med director stipend + see 16-20 patients daily otherwise in PM&R. I would about 40 hours weekly, M-F, and leave early on Fridays

 

[Select All That Apply]

I agree. I talked to a traveling doc the other day and he told me that he has been making 500K for over 15 yrs. Pandemic is about to end so is the cash cow for nurses

Oh. Nice to know COVID is ending right before Christmas comes.

 

[Proudfather94]

I am not in a particularly high earning specialty. I have a med director stipend + see 16-20 patients daily otherwise in PM&R. I would about 40 hours weekly, M-F, and leave early on Fridays

Got any advice for someone that got accepted into a DO school that wants to do PM&R?

 

[chocomorsel]

My wife's a nurse. Hearing the crap she experienced as a nurse made me not want to do that job for 3 seconds. As a nurse if you, your aide, or your doctor screw up and the patient gets hurt it goes back on the nurse. Not to mention the overabundance of nursing schools pumping out nurses every year so job security and crappy working conditions will always be a concern.

That’s a bunch of baloney. I was a nurse before. Doesn’t come back on the nurse nearly half as bad as physicians.

 

[chocomorsel]

RSI, lining, paralyzing, proning, and swimming severe ARF COVID patient cases isn't all that bad considering all the other **** you're forced to deal with in the ICU at any given time. The burden more so falls on RT, medics, and physicians who have to deal with intubating the patients with borderline sats who are refusing it until they absolutely need it and are asking if they can get Ivermectin in the hospital. As a nurse it's scarier handling a severe seizure patient who goes postictal with little to no airway protection, acute GBS/AIDP, or some other form of neurological insult that results in a patient requiring immediate intubation that is concern as the patients can rapidly decline if intubation is not performed and becomes difficult to evaluate how those patients are progressing neurologically when they are sedated as their GCS is automatically a 10 and all you're really doing is testing for spontonaeity, withdrawal, Babinski, etc. with maybe CT/MRI/EEG for follow up. Idk. I would almost always choose to take a full load of COVID patients on high flow that will likely require intubation over a lot of other borderline cases that come our way in the hospital.

They better be refusing it until absolutely necessary. Like peri code. Those patients are smart.
You must work in a place that has a low mortality after intubation. Our mortality is over 95%. So yeah, as an anesthesia CCM I wait till the very last minute to intubate. It’s a damn death sentence.

 

[chocomorsel]

While we may be on a 12 hour shift (as a hospitalist) there is usually a significant amount of time where there is nothing going on.
Pts seen, orders written, DCs done, DC for next day set up with HHC, O2 orders, bedside delivery of meds etc.
For me, thats usually around hour # 5 of my day and the remainder 7 hours are just hanging out, doing more admits for extra $, going home early, napping and so by the time my shift “finishes” I am fresh for hanging out with the kid.

Nursing, PT, Case Management, RT etc don’t have the option of leaving early, and each hour has something to do, and for me despite a 3 day work week, there is NO comparison.

I am an intensivist. I am busy the entire time. Except this week where I had 8 Covid patients and less as the week went on.
I wish I had all that extra time.

 

[chocomorsel]

I don't know how that statement was funny when it's true. If a physician orders something that will kill a patient and a nurse gives it their license gets yanked.

Well the Physician faces consequences too. Same thing. There is a system of checks and balances. That’s where there are pharmacists there as well.
Come on. Losing a license as a Physcian is a hell of a lot more detrimental than losing it as an RN.

 

[chocomorsel]

She never said that it's what I gained from her experience as a nurse. If your aide says they turned your patient and they didn't or they say they drew a lab and never did and something happens to the patient that will fall back on the nurse. Look up Dr. Husel from Ohio, all those nurses lost their license. Some had to have known what they were doing, some didn't, didn't matter. The ones that gave the medication that he ordered lost their license.

It seems like if someone says anything that can be remotely interpreted as a positive thing about nurses the pitch forks and torches come out.

You are brainwashed. Ever heard of pharmacists? They also help ensure that patients aren’t euthanized.

 

[chocomorsel]

Why be a travel nurse making 200k when you can be a travel doc making three times as much?

Well the schooling for one. Way more bang for your buck long term to be making 200k at 23 than 600k at 32. And very little debt. And it’s more like $300k.

 

[ToliBro]

They better be refusing it until absolutely necessary. Like peri code. Those patients are smart.
You must work in a place that has a low mortality after intubation. Our mortality is over 95%. So yeah, as an anesthesia CCM I wait till the very last minute to intubate. It’s a damn death sentence.

Darned if you do, darned if you don't.

Have had a few people on Vapotherm/NRB who've been that way for weeks to 2+ months, not sure what the endpoint is. But anyone you tube dies except the rare few.

I find the nurse vs physician malpractice liability discussion hilarious. Physicians are more lucrative to sue, nurses are not. I like my ability to practice so I make sure to CYA, but it's not a Sword of Damocles by any means.

 

[Mad Jack]

Well the schooling for one. Way more bang for your buck long term to be making 200k at 23 than 600k at 32. And very little debt. And it’s more like $300k.

Except the 200k is temporary, the 600k is forever. You also earn money for everything beyond 4 of the physician years that is about the same as a non-travel nurse and can easily top six figures after moonlighting. Debt is the only real concern, but most nurses I knew had 60-100k+

 

[Ganon]

Well the schooling for one. Way more bang for your buck long term to be making 200k at 23 than 600k at 32. And very little debt. And it’s more like $300k.

I was an RN before age 23 and didn't make 200K or anything close to it.

Covid bucks are temporary for sure. The smartest move is ICU->Travel->CRNA school->chill hours and 300k in perpetuity.
That is the reality for the mobile RN, and is a much better financial decision than 8-10 years for an MD/DO, then 3 years at pittance for a primary care specialty, then the same money as a CRNA for more responsibility and hours.

But not every nurse can do the CRNA route, or travel, or even work in covid units. We think of nurses as young and healthy sometimes because that's often who's on the news right now, but our nursing workforce is aging just like the physicians. Some work in clinics, and need that schedule to care for their children/other responsibilities, or can't work ICU or hospital in general for various reasons. Those nurses will make 60k/year in many places... Barely more than a school teacher.

Every case is different

 

[chocomorsel]

I was an RN before age 23 and didn't make 200K or anything close to it.

Covid bucks are temporary for sure. The smartest move is ICU->Travel->CRNA school->chill hours and 300k in perpetuity.
That is the reality for the mobile RN, and is a much better financial decision than 8-10 years for an MD/DO, then 3 years at pittance for a primary care specialty, then the same money as a CRNA for more responsibility and hours.

But not every nurse can do the CRNA route, or travel, or even work in covid units. We think of nurses as young and healthy sometimes because that's often who's on the news right now, but our nursing workforce is aging just like the physicians. Some work in clinics, and need that schedule to care for their children/other responsibilities, or can't work ICU or hospital in general for various reasons. Those nurses will make 60k/year in many places... Barely more than a school teacher.

Every case is different

Well, we are clearly talking of today RN ICU Covid money. Which is in the range of 200-300K easy.
And year, I was a nurse almost 20 years ago making 54K. Had I made 250K then, I would for sure have postponed medical school.
At that age, if you are wise (most are not) you can do a lot with that money long term if you invest properly. Beats going into debt.
I say ride the Covid gravy train for any RN right now. Until it runs dry.

 

[chocomorsel]

Except the 200k is temporary, the 600k is forever. You also earn money for everything beyond 4 of the physician years that is about the same as a non-travel nurse and can easily top six figures after moonlighting. Debt is the only real concern, but most nurses I knew had 60-100k+

You don't have to be 60-100K to be an RN. That's just plain dumb. If you live in a state where state colleges are expensive, start at a community college, get your ADN then do a year at a state college or even online and get the BSN. Doesn't have to cost more than 30K or so. Or move to a state that has cheap colleges.
But if you are young and pulling that money and are wise, you can save and invest that money and it can grow before you decide to take the plunge to go back for a grad or MD degree. To give that up right now, and go to Medical school is just plain stupid financially speaking. Postpone that ****. Medical school if that is what you want, ain't going nowhere.

 

[chocomorsel]

Darned if you do, darned if you don't.

Have had a few people on Vapotherm/NRB who've been that way for weeks to 2+ months, not sure what the endpoint is. But anyone you tube dies except the rare few.

I find the nurse vs physician malpractice liability discussion hilarious. Physicians are more lucrative to sue, nurses are not. I like my ability to practice so I make sure to CYA, but it's not a Sword of Damocles by any means.

The endpoint is they either die or they don't. But if they can survive on Vapotherm/NRB for 2 months, let them keep going. Because we have taken care of people on the vent for months as well so.. If that was me, I would say don't come near me with a tube unless I am coding. No sir, no Ma'am.
I am vaccinated and boosted and will keep getting boosted, but as a minority I see how badly they do and I do not like to intubate anyone.
Obviously it would be easier for these idiots if they got vaccinated, but that's another story altogether.
Unfortunately we have seen the rare vaccinated older or immunocompromised die too.

 

[Ganon]

Well, we are clearly talking of today RN ICU Covid money. Which is in the range of 200-300K easy.
And year, I was a nurse almost 20 years ago making 54K. Had I made 250K then, I would for sure have postponed medical school.
At that age, if you are wise (most are not) you can do a lot with that money long term if you invest properly. Beats going into debt.
I say ride the Covid gravy train for any RN right now. Until it runs dry.

It also isn’t all about money for everyone.

I have the option of taking a “research year” to work and make that money, but I’m choosing to continue training, not because it will be more money, but because there’s more to my decision than earnings
Different strokes.

There’s probably a lot of CRNAs who make more than half of pediatrics… and yet we still have pediatricians

 

[Mad Jack]

You don't have to be 60-100K to be an RN. That's just plain dumb. If you live in a state where state colleges are expensive, start at a community college, get your ADN then do a year at a state college or even online and get the BSN. Doesn't have to cost more than 30K or so. Or move to a state that has cheap colleges.
But if you are young and pulling that money and are wise, you can save and invest that money and it can grow before you decide to take the plunge to go back for a grad or MD degree. To give that up right now, and go to Medical school is just plain stupid financially speaking. Postpone that ****. Medical school if that is what you want, ain't going nowhere.

You don't have to go into debt. But most people do, because people make stupid decisions at 18. 70% of nurses have student loan debt, with the mediun being 40-55k depending on the study.

I did the community college>university thing as a RT, graduated with a few thousand dollars in total debt. Medical school though...

 

[Select All That Apply]

The underlying condition isn't the COVID pandemic, it's been skeleton staffing on the part of most hospitals. COVID is simply an acute on chronic impetus that has exposed poor staffing on the part of hospitals. When you require ICU nurses to facilitate vents and swim patients, you begin to run into logistical problems that can't be fixed by moving nurses around when not all of them are not trained to handle vented patients.

Nurses do return "home" to roost. See the situation is still bad. And openly discuss signing on another contract in a month. You're not getting a lot of staff back when hospitals can't pay nurses six figures. Nurses are aware that's not a fair demand to make in this situation. So they don't make it, they just leave while the opportunity is there which continues to drive more opportunities in those hospitals as they find over 50% of their ICU staff has given their two weeks and they don't have an answer for it.

 

[chocomorsel]

You don't have to go into debt. But most people do, because people make stupid decisions at 18. 70% of nurses have student loan debt, with the mediun being 40-55k depending on the study.

I did the community college>university thing as a RT, graduated with a few thousand dollars in total debt. Medical school though...

I did the community college thing too. Cool to meet somebody’s else who did it. I think though it’s because we had some real world experiences.
For me it was the military.
I joined the military because I knew I was not gonna have money for college and if I hadn’t, I would have started at community college anyway. Something I learned from my foreign family.

 

[rg2o3]

Never.