Why MD, not DO?

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There's no way I could've been this ******ed a few years ago...

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Ah yes, the application of those evidence-based guidelines from all the peer-reviewed papers studying the differences between OMM techniques and in which cases they are best used.
I'm not here to argue the validity of OMM. I've done that before. My comment was to demonstrate I have more medical knowledge than a DC and wouldn't prescribe or initiate OMM on a patient I didn't feel comfortable doing it to. Knowing pathophysiology and disease allows me to separate cases, screen patients, and initiate further testing if necessary.
 
Wow, a 5 year program eh? Either way are clearly a narcissistic douche, no matter what your status in life. If that was an option I would, but clearly I am a medical student so I fall into the category I am listed in. It would behoove you to grow up a little, and realize the world doesnt revolve around you. Hopefully as you progress through med school you learn a little humility; before you start pushing your classmates, patients, and future coworkers away with your arrogance.

Of course I'm a narcissistic douche because I don't agree with you and because I think something is subpar. You made a choice and that's fine but the rest of us have a right to criticize it and not like it. If it works for you, so be it but it doesn't mean the whole world has to think it's fantastic.
 
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I believe it does actually take into account those matching in the DO match. Those who apply both DO and MD and match DO are withdrawn from the MD match. Thus they do not actually participate in the MD match and are not counted in the NRMP statistics.

If you look on page 17 of the linked document, it gives the breakdown of what happens to the applicants. Of 3172 total DO students and graduates who applied, 789 withdrew pre-match (presumably mostly those who matched to osteopathic programs) and 175 did not submit a rank list. That leaves 2178 DOs in the match, of whom 1561 matched to PGY-1 positions.

That may be so. Others who have more experience with this might want to chime in. I am not really a match list or NMRP statistic obsessor like many on SDN. I just have a hard time believing that 1/3 of DO students who enter the ACGME match end up having to sit a year out or scramble into something. I may be wrong tho. I am sure plenty of DO students with dreams and a lack of stats to back things up enter the match each year and dont perform very well.
 
Of course I'm a narcissistic douche because I don't agree with you and because I think something is subpar. You made a choice and that's fine but the rest of us have a right to criticize it and not like it. If it works for you, so be it but it doesn't mean the whole world has to think it's fantastic.

You are making a complete fool of yourself. You have ZERO experience with the pathway as a Canadian. Furthermore DOs arent eligible for licensure in your province, so I significant doubt you have even been exposed to one. Its like me commenting on the realities of X education in British Columbia, when I have never been to BC nor met anyone from there. Its funny you come from Quebec. We Quebecois are so important that we want to be a separate speaking country and not associate with the rest of you idiotic Canadians.

Thank you so much for deciding to become a physician, we are so lucky to have you. Please stay up in Canada though. There is no place for arrogance in medicine. We have enough problems with the medical system here in the US, the last thing we need is one more jabrone with an attitude. Arrogance and douchebaggery are straight up DANGEROUS in medicine.

Oh and you ARE a narcissistic douche as evidenced by your statements. Wahhhh I cant believe you would send a DO to treat me, Mr Allmighty Athina. Get a life, and or psychiatric treatment for your narcissistic personality disorder.
 
You are making a complete fool of yourself. You have ZERO experience with the pathway as a Canadian. Furthermore DOs arent eligible for licensure in your province, so I significant doubt you have even been exposed to one. Its like me commenting on the realities of X education in British Columbia, when I have never been to BC nor met anyone from there.

Thank you so much for deciding to become a physician, we are so lucky to have you. Please stay up in Canada though. There is no place for arrogance in medicine. We have enough problems with the medical system here in the US, the last thing we need is one more jabrone with an attitude. Arrogance and douchebaggery are straight up DANGEROUS in medicine.

Right, because clearly it is very wrong to not think very highly of DOs. There are people who don't think highly of MDs and that's their right. People have opinions. Mine is that DO is inferior to MD. Deal with it.
 
Right, because clearly it is very wrong to not think very highly of DOs. There are people who don't think highly of MDs and that's their right. People have opinions. Mine is that DO is inferior to MD. Deal with it.

Cool, and I think you are an inferior doc to DO grads from my school because you are a Canadian grad. You said it bro, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
 
DO programs generally have lower GPA/MCAT standards than MD programs. So people who actually invested time in people rather than grades and pointless checklist ECs during undergraduate education tend to suffer in MD selection criteria.
:love:


seriously?

the only completely objective aspect of any medical application is the MCAT followed by GPA. I think that those students who are accepted to MD schools generally have shown their dedication more than students entering DO schools. That isn't always the case, but just because one has worked hard to achieve a high GPA and MCAT does not mean that their work was meaningless-- nor do they have any less ability to invest into people, in fact I'd say the opposite is true.

The truth is that DO schools are the second choice for almost all students. As everyone is saying-- the training is the same as MD schools-- so why do they even exist then?? They exist because people want to become doctors, but not everyone can get into MD schools. Of course OMM is something that people are drawn too, but in my experience it generally is a gimmick...

This is coming from someone who highly respects osteopathic doctors and has received most of his clinical experience working with DOs. It's just unfair to MD schools to say that their students are any less qualified in any aspect! MD schools can have their cake and eat it too-- that's why they have good numbers and good students.

just me $0.02
 
seriously?

the only completely objective aspect of any medical application is the MCAT followed by GPA. I think that those students who are accepted to MD schools generally have shown their dedication more than students entering DO schools. That isn't always the case, but just because one has worked hard to achieve a high GPA and MCAT does not mean that their work was meaningless-- nor do they have any less ability to invest into people, in fact I'd say the opposite is true.

The truth is that DO schools are the second choice for almost all students. As everyone is saying-- the training is the same as MD schools-- so why do they even exist then?? They exist because people want to become doctors, but not everyone can get into MD schools. Of course OMM is something that people are drawn too, but in my experience it generally is a gimmick...

This is coming from someone who highly respects osteopathic doctors and has received most of his clinical experience working with DOs. It's just unfair to MD schools to say that their students are any less qualified in any aspect! MD schools can have their cake and eat it too-- that's why they have good numbers and good students.

just me $0.02

I think you are taking that poster out of context. It is well know that DO schools place a higher emphasis on personal experiences vs objective measures than MD schools. I think this poster was talking about this.

Furthermore, again I will speak of my situation. I think the dedication to medicine ive evidenced by my ability to come back from an extremely poor undergrad GPA, with an incredible GPA in my masters program, and almost 10 years of clinical experience, far outweighs the dedication your average undergrad shows just by graduating their BS program with a good GPA and MCAT....but I am sure most MD schools wouldnt have even paid any attention to that due to grades I got in 2002/2003 when I was taking my core premed stuff. I know you said "in general" but figured I would use myself as an example. You cant really say anyone has more dedication than someone else...especially since dedication can be evidenced in other ways than just grades.
 
*Sigh*

This is why I think we should have only ONE medical degree title (MD or DO, I don't care).

We should have many more medical schools willing to perform a holistic review of each and every applicant and get rid of this "two-tier" system. Seriously, MD schools expect perfection from start to finish, and some applicants have had to endure a lot of crap or discovered their passion much later on, affecting their GPA. This doesn't make them any less competitive.

I say "two-tier" because even our media/society and the attitudes of medical students/colleges/residency directors/etc. perpetuate its existence.

Physicians shouldn't have to live with a "stigma" and constantly have to validate their worth to their patients and even their peers, whom they are equal in standing with. Honestly, why would so many competitive applicants go Caribbean for the MD if there wasn't a stigma?

I've seen it at hospitals where I've worked, and it's just sad and tiring to see these power politics go on and on...

In a perfect world, right? :(
 
DO's can't get consulting jobs, writing jobs? Really?

Well I know a couple of MDs who are medical consultants for drug companies, tv shows, and are authors in their spare time. I asked them if they run into DOs who have similar type jobs and they said that they have never met a DO who is a consultant or something along those lines.

I mean there's a reason why all the medical shows you see on tv have MDs and no DOs lol, its called House MD not House DO, etc.

The truth is that DO schools are the second choice for almost all students. As everyone is saying-- the training is the same as MD schools-- so why do they even exist then?? They exist because people want to become doctors, but not everyone can get into MD schools. Of course OMM is something that people are drawn too, but in my experience it generally is a gimmick...

Bingo. I mean there are exceptions because I know of people who generally have a passion for OMM, some others who got inspired by a DO, but beyond very rare cases like that, I completely agree with you.

For people who suck way too much in life to be an MD (like me), there is the DO path (of course in my case I'm sure ill suck too much for this too. its just my thanggg) :thumbup:


Cool, and I think you are an inferior doc to DO grads from my school because you are a Canadian grad. You said it bro, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

But this makes no sense. His argument is that DO is inherently inferior to MD because of the threshold to get in, the lack of residency opportunities available to DOs vs MDs, Knowledge of the degree, COMLEX vs USMLE, etc etc. Unless you can prove that ALL Canadian graduates are inferior to DOs based on some standard, you can't really say that. And if it is your opinion, its just plain stupid.

This is why I think we should have only ONE medical degree title (MD or DO, I don't care).

We should have many more medical schools willing to perform a holistic review of each and every applicant and get rid of this "two-tier" system. Seriously, MD schools expect perfection from start to finish, and some applicants have had to endure a lot of crap or discovered their passion much later on, affecting their GPA. This doesn't make them any less competitive.

Holistic my @$$. Even then there would still be some GPA standard and some MCAT standard. That will never go away and is rightly expected to be high for aspiring physicians. Those of us who are failures and can't meet the expectations (like me) have to accept that we will not be given the degree that comes with more career opportunities. Beggars can't be choosers, and this wouldn't make the process anymore "holistic". If anything it would just make it less b/c of the increased volume of applicants.


Will I match an allopathic urology spot as a DO? No, I won't. But neither will the majority of US allopathic students. These fields are selective due to competition. Degree is secondary. DOs can apply to their own residencies (since most exist in both worlds).

This is a terrible way of justifying things. You won't match in an allo res but neither will the MAJORITY of us allo students?.....um ok, what about the minority that MATCH? You can't tell me that your chances of matching are exactly the same as DO vs MD. if there are some allo students that can match into it, it means that as an allo student, you have a higher chance of matching into it which means that its not the same as DO.
 
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I think you are taking that poster out of context. It is well know that DO schools place a higher emphasis on personal experiences vs objective measures than MD schools. I think this poster was talking about this.

Furthermore, again I will speak of my situation. I think the dedication to medicine ive evidenced by my ability to come back from an extremely poor undergrad GPA, with an incredible GPA in my masters program, and almost 10 years of clinical experience, far outweighs the dedication your average undergrad shows just by graduating their BS program with a good GPA and MCAT....but I am sure most MD schools wouldnt have even paid any attention to that due to grades I got in 2002/2003 when I was taking my core premed stuff. I know you said "in general" but figured I would use myself as an example. You cant really say anyone has more dedication than someone else...especially since dedication can be evidenced in other ways than just grades.

yeah-- i was reading your story earlier-- idk-- yea i suppose DO schools do look at other stuff probably more closely. I still think that MD schools would have looked favorably on your app but who knows..

w/e in the end we all find our way!
 
Not everyone is interested in chiropractic medicine... ;)

There is quite a bit of difference between chiropractors and U.S. trained D.O.
For instance, U.S. trained D.O. can prescribe medications and perform surgeries. In many countries, including Canada, they are considered the same as an M.D. or M.B./B.S., M.B./B.Chir., etc. They can even apply for residencies on par with Canadian and U.S. trained M.D.s for resident matching and are not put in the foreign-trained pool, meaning they will be considered during the first iteration. Even D.O.s trained anywhere outside the U.S. don't have that privilege, because they are not considered physicians and cannot prescribe medication or perform surgery.
 
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yeah-- i was reading your story earlier-- idk-- yea i suppose DO schools do look at other stuff probably more closely. I still think that MD schools would have looked favorably on your app but who knows..

w/e in the end we all find our way!

Sure, perhaps some would, but by and large they autoscreen out people below 2.9. Furthermore my "GPA recovery" was done in a masters program...and on the AMACAS graduate GPA wont change your undergrad GPA at all...so my application GPA for MD schools would have been 2.45....and thats what they would have seen.

Furthermore, I am a bit older obviously, own a home...wifey has a career here locally, etc...and I wasnt going to fill out an AMCAS to apply to just local schools...especially since I wouldnt have had a shot at Penn, Jeff, or Temple.....and Drexel I wouldnt go to (I got my masters at drexelmed and didnt like the administration).

But like you said, we all find our way in the end and I have no doubt I will end up in the specialty of my choice and successful in life.

Only on professional forums to you find such hilarious arguments. We are all going to be doctors one way or another. One pathway has a few more loops but ends at the same destination.
 
I dont speak french, but am figuring that means "yes they are." I thought quebec was one of the provinces that doesnt take US DOs.

The big picture is that they still can't practice in some places that US MD's can. But who would honestly want to work in the canadian health care system, besides a pcp? I equate it to working for the VA
 
I dont think the desire to specialize is a bad reason to say (if this came up). DO schools on the other hand ALWAYS ask "Why DO." @ My school I actually did say "because I had an extreme grade turnaround and DO schools would be more likely to recognize me as a changed person vs MDs." Honest and to the point....and it worked.

I really liked your posts. I feel like I am pretty much going to be in the same boat as you, and I am glad to read a success story like yours!
 
The big picture is that they still can't practice in some places that US MD's can. But who would honestly want to work in the canadian health care system, besides a pcp? I equate it to working for the VA

Yup, and I think just about every US MD or DO school would be pretty upset if your ultimate intent was to leave the country and go practice in another.
 
There has been some decent conversation and clarification of common misinformation in this thread thus far. Let's be sure that can continue: debate is acceptable; personal attacks are not.
 
The big picture is that they still can't practice in some places that US MD's can. But who would honestly want to work in the canadian health care system, besides a pcp? I equate it to working for the VA

On Sermo, a physician-only forum, there's a US trained EM physician who moved to practice in Canada after burning out in the US. Loves it there. While there are certain services that are not 24/7 like in the US, the malpractice environment there is so drastically different that the practice of defensive medicine is not necessary and somewhat discouraged. Sounds nice.
 
At the end of the day, MD and DO do allow you to do the same things. Are the degrees "equal"? That depends on your standards for what you value and don't value. If the degree matters, then yes, MD is greater. If practicing matters, they are basically the same with MD at an advantage.

I just think its wrong to say that two degrees are "equal" when one of them is comparatively harder to obtain and is not as forgiving.

In terms of the job, you can do the same things as an MD but it just takes a lot more work for you to achieve the same amount as a DO. Its what I get for not being good enough to be an MD. The only thing is that MDs have more residency/research/job options compared to DOs.
 
That may be so. Others who have more experience with this might want to chime in. I am not really a match list or NMRP statistic obsessor like many on SDN. I just have a hard time believing that 1/3 of DO students who enter the ACGME match end up having to sit a year out or scramble into something. I may be wrong tho.

Wasn't this you last night?

willen101383 said:
Trust me, there arent 30% of all graduating DOs walking around matchless each year.

Sorry for calling you out, (and I am by no means a huge DO route supporter), but it is important that people check their facts. Of all the misconceptions out there involving DOs most are not true, and are just things premeds continue to pass down because of "i read somewhere" or "i heard from someone," without checking the facts.
 
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Wasn't this you last night?

I dont think posting about match rate data and potentially not being correct falls into the same category as posting egregious errors about an entire field of medicine based on things other premeds have told you.
 
Theyre more interested in keeping DOs in the past, than acknowledging most grads want change, wont practice OMM, and dont think they are different from MDs in anyway.

It would be foolish of them to do this. DO was founded on the concepts of OMM and holistic medicine. *They then began their (highly successful) "separate but equal" campaign to the point that they now have equal practicing rights as US MDs. *If they stop claiming the utility of these approaches, their entire argument falls apart and there is no reason for them to exist as a separate entity. They can't have it both ways.
 
I realize that. I've discussed OMM with several friends who are in DO schools and they all think it's crap. I've worked with a number of DO residents and attendings and never seen it used once.

The resistance to evidence-based evaluation of osteopathic techniques from the osteopathic establishment (not most DO's) remains my primary objection to DO training.

And mine as well. Its frustrating as an osteopathic medical student to have evidence based medicine forced down your throat from the "typical" departments, yet be persuaded to blindly buy into OMM with a total absence of any evidence by the OMM department. Sure, its definitely plausible that some OMM actually works, but I would venture to say that 75% of the stuff we are taught is a complete waste of time. Furthermore, there is no way you would stay proficient in most of it unless you are an OMM guru. Hell, I cant even remember stuff from one practical to the next.
 
It would be foolish of them to do this. DO was founded on the concepts of OMM and holistic medicine. *They then began their (highly successful) "separate but equal" campaign to the point that they now have equal practicing rights as US MDs. *If they stop claiming the utility of these approaches, their entire argument falls apart and there is no reason for them to exist as a separate entity. They can't have it both ways.

But IS there even a reason to have 2 separate entities anymore? I dont really see the point.
 
I dont think posting about match rate data and potentially not being correct falls into the same category as posting egregious errors about an entire field of medicine based on things other premeds have told you.

It's simply a little odd to admonish others for not checking the facts when you clearly haven't done so, yourself.
 
It's simply a little odd to admonish others for not checking the facts when you clearly haven't done so, yourself.

Apples and oranges. So what exactly is your role in this conversation? To come in and pull rank and nitpick something I said to a premed who was making some blatantly false statements?
 
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Apples and oranges. So what exactly is your role in this conversation? To come in and pull rank and nitpick something I said to a premed who was making some blatantly false statements?

I could only "pull rank" on you if you were on my service and reporting to me. You aren't, so goodbye to that notion.

My decision to enter this open conversation stems from the annoyance incurred when someone studying medicine cannot be bothered to look up and interpret some easily obtainable data.

For instance, the DO match rate in the 2011 NRMP match was indeed 71.7%
Of further interest, however, is the match rate in the 2011 DO match, which was 74.1%.

Perhaps you or someone else could help shed some light on this situation, since that second number is lower than I would have anticipated.
 
I could only "pull rank" on you if you were on my service and reporting to me. You aren't, so goodbye to that notion.

My decision to enter this open conversation stems from the annoyance incurred when someone studying medicine cannot be bothered to look up and interpret some easily obtainable data.

For instance, the DO match rate in the 2011 NRMP match was indeed 71.7%
Of further interest, however, is the match rate in the 2011 DO match, which was 74.1%.

Perhaps you or someone else could help shed some light on this situation, since that second number is lower than I would have anticipated.
I'm far from an expert about this, so this means that there is 25% of DO grads wandering the streets looking for work?
 
At the end of the day, MD and DO do allow you to do the same things. Are the degrees "equal"? That depends on your standards for what you value and don't value. If the degree matters, then yes, MD is greater. If practicing matters, they are basically the same with MD at an advantage.

I just think its wrong to say that two degrees are "equal" when one of them is comparatively harder to obtain and is not as forgiving.

In terms of the job, you can do the same things as an MD but it just takes a lot more work for you to achieve the same amount as a DO. Its what I get for not being good enough to be an MD. The only thing is that MDs have more residency/research/job options compared to DOs.

Completely agree.
 
I'm far from an expert about this, so this means that there is 25% of DO grads wandering the streets looking for work?

No, the overall match rate for DO grads is 1895 DO matches+1561 MD matches=3456 matched out of 3875 students for an overall 89.2%. Compared to 94.4% for MD matched and 50% for US IMG.
 
No, the overall match rate for DO grads is 1895 DO matches+1561 MD matches=3456 matched out of 3875 students for an overall 89.2%. Compared to 94.4% for MD matched and 50% for US IMG.

:thumbup:

was just about to clarify...although, where did you get a total of 3875 students?
 
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Imagine the joy if the DO schools would just give up and offer a DO-lite track without all the chiropractic crap that some quack made up in the 1800s.
 
Imagine the joy if the DO schools would just give up and offer a DO-lite track without all the chiropractic crap that some quack made up in the 1800s.

So, in other words, be an allopathic school? And the "quack" was an MD, FYI.
 
And blood-letting/etc wasn't as much quackery?

Blood-letting was actually an alternative way of treating CHF back in the day.

If you lack bipap, nitrates, and furosemide, you could bleed them and reduce the preload.
 
So, in other words, be an allopathic school?

Well, on SDN at least, DO is typically explained like this:

1) You learn allopathic medicine
2) Nobody uses OMM anymore

So... yes.

And the "quack" was an MD, FYI.

Just like Zell Miller was a Democrat. :p

Frontier physician Andrew Taylor Still founded the profession as a radical rejection of the prevailing system of medical thought of the 19th century.
 
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I could only "pull rank" on you if you were on my service and reporting to me. You aren't, so goodbye to that notion.

My decision to enter this open conversation stems from the annoyance incurred when someone studying medicine cannot be bothered to look up and interpret some easily obtainable data.

For instance, the DO match rate in the 2011 NRMP match was indeed 71.7%
Of further interest, however, is the match rate in the 2011 DO match, which was 74.1%.

Perhaps you or someone else could help shed some light on this situation, since that second number is lower than I would have anticipated.

In the past my cursory reading of the NMRP data lead me to believe that where it says:
"Unmatched" X percent and then "withdrew" X percent, that the "withdrawn" individuals were comprising a significant amount of individuals who were unmatched.

Like I said earlier, I am an M2...I have more to worry about (and am years away from worrying about this) than sitting here and interpreting match data...so any reading I have done has been "light" and not meant to determine my actual chances of matching in the NRMP match.

To address the relatively low number of DOs matching in the AOA match, I can only guess that is due to individuals only ranking absolute favorites in the AOA match as a fall back in case they match in the ACGME match.....and then not matching AOA and taking an ACGME spot instead.
 
So, in other words, be an allopathic school? And the "quack" was an MD, FYI.

I sort of feel as though OMM should be required for some of M1 and if you like it you can keep going, and if you dont you can stop taking it. Better than having to fake that you like it for the sake of passing a class you utterly despise.
 
Just like Zell Miller was a Democrat. :p

:laugh:

I sort of feel as though OMM should be required for some of M1 and if you like it you can keep going, and if you dont you can stop taking it. Better than having to fake that you like it for the sake of passing a class you utterly despise.

But how many people do you think would stop taking it?
 
:laugh:



But how many people do you think would stop taking it?

I would venture to say like 75% of my class if not more. Some people like it...but of those people who like it, I cant tell whether they genuinely like it...or are just faking it for a good grade/they are scared of the power the OMM dept wields over their progression through med school.
 
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