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There's no way I could've been this ******ed a few years ago...
I'm not here to argue the validity of OMM. I've done that before. My comment was to demonstrate I have more medical knowledge than a DC and wouldn't prescribe or initiate OMM on a patient I didn't feel comfortable doing it to. Knowing pathophysiology and disease allows me to separate cases, screen patients, and initiate further testing if necessary.Ah yes, the application of those evidence-based guidelines from all the peer-reviewed papers studying the differences between OMM techniques and in which cases they are best used.
Wow, a 5 year program eh? Either way are clearly a narcissistic douche, no matter what your status in life. If that was an option I would, but clearly I am a medical student so I fall into the category I am listed in. It would behoove you to grow up a little, and realize the world doesnt revolve around you. Hopefully as you progress through med school you learn a little humility; before you start pushing your classmates, patients, and future coworkers away with your arrogance.
I believe it does actually take into account those matching in the DO match. Those who apply both DO and MD and match DO are withdrawn from the MD match. Thus they do not actually participate in the MD match and are not counted in the NRMP statistics.
If you look on page 17 of the linked document, it gives the breakdown of what happens to the applicants. Of 3172 total DO students and graduates who applied, 789 withdrew pre-match (presumably mostly those who matched to osteopathic programs) and 175 did not submit a rank list. That leaves 2178 DOs in the match, of whom 1561 matched to PGY-1 positions.
Of course I'm a narcissistic douche because I don't agree with you and because I think something is subpar. You made a choice and that's fine but the rest of us have a right to criticize it and not like it. If it works for you, so be it but it doesn't mean the whole world has to think it's fantastic.
You are making a complete fool of yourself. You have ZERO experience with the pathway as a Canadian. Furthermore DOs arent eligible for licensure in your province, so I significant doubt you have even been exposed to one. Its like me commenting on the realities of X education in British Columbia, when I have never been to BC nor met anyone from there.
Thank you so much for deciding to become a physician, we are so lucky to have you. Please stay up in Canada though. There is no place for arrogance in medicine. We have enough problems with the medical system here in the US, the last thing we need is one more jabrone with an attitude. Arrogance and douchebaggery are straight up DANGEROUS in medicine.
Right, because clearly it is very wrong to not think very highly of DOs. There are people who don't think highly of MDs and that's their right. People have opinions. Mine is that DO is inferior to MD. Deal with it.
DO programs generally have lower GPA/MCAT standards than MD programs. So people who actually invested time in people rather than grades and pointless checklist ECs during undergraduate education tend to suffer in MD selection criteria.
seriously?
the only completely objective aspect of any medical application is the MCAT followed by GPA. I think that those students who are accepted to MD schools generally have shown their dedication more than students entering DO schools. That isn't always the case, but just because one has worked hard to achieve a high GPA and MCAT does not mean that their work was meaningless-- nor do they have any less ability to invest into people, in fact I'd say the opposite is true.
The truth is that DO schools are the second choice for almost all students. As everyone is saying-- the training is the same as MD schools-- so why do they even exist then?? They exist because people want to become doctors, but not everyone can get into MD schools. Of course OMM is something that people are drawn too, but in my experience it generally is a gimmick...
This is coming from someone who highly respects osteopathic doctors and has received most of his clinical experience working with DOs. It's just unfair to MD schools to say that their students are any less qualified in any aspect! MD schools can have their cake and eat it too-- that's why they have good numbers and good students.
just me $0.02
DO's can't get consulting jobs, writing jobs? Really?
The truth is that DO schools are the second choice for almost all students. As everyone is saying-- the training is the same as MD schools-- so why do they even exist then?? They exist because people want to become doctors, but not everyone can get into MD schools. Of course OMM is something that people are drawn too, but in my experience it generally is a gimmick...
Cool, and I think you are an inferior doc to DO grads from my school because you are a Canadian grad. You said it bro, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
This is why I think we should have only ONE medical degree title (MD or DO, I don't care).
We should have many more medical schools willing to perform a holistic review of each and every applicant and get rid of this "two-tier" system. Seriously, MD schools expect perfection from start to finish, and some applicants have had to endure a lot of crap or discovered their passion much later on, affecting their GPA. This doesn't make them any less competitive.
Will I match an allopathic urology spot as a DO? No, I won't. But neither will the majority of US allopathic students. These fields are selective due to competition. Degree is secondary. DOs can apply to their own residencies (since most exist in both worlds).
I think you are taking that poster out of context. It is well know that DO schools place a higher emphasis on personal experiences vs objective measures than MD schools. I think this poster was talking about this.
Furthermore, again I will speak of my situation. I think the dedication to medicine ive evidenced by my ability to come back from an extremely poor undergrad GPA, with an incredible GPA in my masters program, and almost 10 years of clinical experience, far outweighs the dedication your average undergrad shows just by graduating their BS program with a good GPA and MCAT....but I am sure most MD schools wouldnt have even paid any attention to that due to grades I got in 2002/2003 when I was taking my core premed stuff. I know you said "in general" but figured I would use myself as an example. You cant really say anyone has more dedication than someone else...especially since dedication can be evidenced in other ways than just grades.
Not everyone is interested in chiropractic medicine...
yeah-- i was reading your story earlier-- idk-- yea i suppose DO schools do look at other stuff probably more closely. I still think that MD schools would have looked favorably on your app but who knows..
w/e in the end we all find our way!
Furthermore DOs arent eligible for licensure in your province, so I significant doubt you have even been exposed to one.
Well I know a couple of MDs who are medical consultants for drug companies, tv shows, and are authors in their spare time. I asked them if they run into DOs who have similar type jobs and they said that they have never met a DO who is a consultant or something along those lines.
Québec? Pas si.
I dont speak french, but am figuring that means "yes they are." I thought quebec was one of the provinces that doesnt take US DOs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Osteopathic_Medicine
Only PEI and Saskatchewan do not allow DO to fully practice. The other provinces allow reciprocity but there are varying hoops to jump through.
I dont speak french, but am figuring that means "yes they are." I thought quebec was one of the provinces that doesnt take US DOs.
I dont think the desire to specialize is a bad reason to say (if this came up). DO schools on the other hand ALWAYS ask "Why DO." @ My school I actually did say "because I had an extreme grade turnaround and DO schools would be more likely to recognize me as a changed person vs MDs." Honest and to the point....and it worked.
The big picture is that they still can't practice in some places that US MD's can. But who would honestly want to work in the canadian health care system, besides a pcp? I equate it to working for the VA
The big picture is that they still can't practice in some places that US MD's can. But who would honestly want to work in the canadian health care system, besides a pcp? I equate it to working for the VA
The big picture is that they still can't practice in some places that US MD's can. But who would honestly want to work in the canadian health care system, besides a pcp? I equate it to working for the VA
But who would honestly want to work in the canadian health care system, besides a pcp? I equate it to working for the VA
That may be so. Others who have more experience with this might want to chime in. I am not really a match list or NMRP statistic obsessor like many on SDN. I just have a hard time believing that 1/3 of DO students who enter the ACGME match end up having to sit a year out or scramble into something. I may be wrong tho.
willen101383 said:Trust me, there arent 30% of all graduating DOs walking around matchless each year.
Sorry for calling you out, (and I am by no means a huge DO route supporter), but it is important that people check their facts. Of all the misconceptions out there involving DOs most are not true, and are just things premeds continue to pass down because of "i read somewhere" or "i heard from someone," without checking the facts.
I don't know man....Canadian docs are rollin in $$$$ Scrooge McDuck style noimsayin?
http://www.health.gov.bc.ca/msp/legislation/pdf/bluebook2011.pdf
(I'm assuming all the high six-figure employees - there are alot - are specialists)
Wasn't this you last night?
Theyre more interested in keeping DOs in the past, than acknowledging most grads want change, wont practice OMM, and dont think they are different from MDs in anyway.
I realize that. I've discussed OMM with several friends who are in DO schools and they all think it's crap. I've worked with a number of DO residents and attendings and never seen it used once.
The resistance to evidence-based evaluation of osteopathic techniques from the osteopathic establishment (not most DO's) remains my primary objection to DO training.
It would be foolish of them to do this. DO was founded on the concepts of OMM and holistic medicine. *They then began their (highly successful) "separate but equal" campaign to the point that they now have equal practicing rights as US MDs. *If they stop claiming the utility of these approaches, their entire argument falls apart and there is no reason for them to exist as a separate entity. They can't have it both ways.
I dont think posting about match rate data and potentially not being correct falls into the same category as posting egregious errors about an entire field of medicine based on things other premeds have told you.
It's simply a little odd to admonish others for not checking the facts when you clearly haven't done so, yourself.
Apples and oranges. So what exactly is your role in this conversation? To come in and pull rank and nitpick something I said to a premed who was making some blatantly false statements?
I'm far from an expert about this, so this means that there is 25% of DO grads wandering the streets looking for work?I could only "pull rank" on you if you were on my service and reporting to me. You aren't, so goodbye to that notion.
My decision to enter this open conversation stems from the annoyance incurred when someone studying medicine cannot be bothered to look up and interpret some easily obtainable data.
For instance, the DO match rate in the 2011 NRMP match was indeed 71.7%
Of further interest, however, is the match rate in the 2011 DO match, which was 74.1%.
Perhaps you or someone else could help shed some light on this situation, since that second number is lower than I would have anticipated.
At the end of the day, MD and DO do allow you to do the same things. Are the degrees "equal"? That depends on your standards for what you value and don't value. If the degree matters, then yes, MD is greater. If practicing matters, they are basically the same with MD at an advantage.
I just think its wrong to say that two degrees are "equal" when one of them is comparatively harder to obtain and is not as forgiving.
In terms of the job, you can do the same things as an MD but it just takes a lot more work for you to achieve the same amount as a DO. Its what I get for not being good enough to be an MD. The only thing is that MDs have more residency/research/job options compared to DOs.
I'm far from an expert about this, so this means that there is 25% of DO grads wandering the streets looking for work?
No, the overall match rate for DO grads is 1895 DO matches+1561 MD matches=3456 matched out of 3875 students for an overall 89.2%. Compared to 94.4% for MD matched and 50% for US IMG.
Imagine the joy if the DO schools would just give up and offer a DO-lite track without all the chiropractic crap that some quack made up in the 1800s.
And blood-letting/etc wasn't as much quackery?
So, in other words, be an allopathic school?
And the "quack" was an MD, FYI.
Frontier physician Andrew Taylor Still founded the profession as a radical rejection of the prevailing system of medical thought of the 19th century.
I could only "pull rank" on you if you were on my service and reporting to me. You aren't, so goodbye to that notion.
My decision to enter this open conversation stems from the annoyance incurred when someone studying medicine cannot be bothered to look up and interpret some easily obtainable data.
For instance, the DO match rate in the 2011 NRMP match was indeed 71.7%
Of further interest, however, is the match rate in the 2011 DO match, which was 74.1%.
Perhaps you or someone else could help shed some light on this situation, since that second number is lower than I would have anticipated.
So, in other words, be an allopathic school? And the "quack" was an MD, FYI.
Just like Zell Miller was a Democrat.
I sort of feel as though OMM should be required for some of M1 and if you like it you can keep going, and if you dont you can stop taking it. Better than having to fake that you like it for the sake of passing a class you utterly despise.
But how many people do you think would stop taking it?