Why MD, not DO?

[Sephiroth]

I agree that making the two the same would be better. Other than some OMM that most D.O.s don't use, calling them Doctors of Osteopathic medicine is a misnomer and they are generally using allopathic medicine anyway. That said, they would need to make some changes that AACOM probably wouldn't like, such as meeting LCME-level standards and oversight - while I don't doubt the overwhelming majority of DO schools, I have heard of some being somehwat lacking in clinical rotations, and this for-profit stuff wouldn't fly, I'm very skeptical of Rocky Vista and it seems the AACOM doesn't keep as strict oversight as LCME does. Really I'd like to see DO schools become primary-care-only allopathic schools. Since they preach the hollistic approach anyway, they could replace the non-primary care rotations with things like preventitive medicine/nutrition, etc.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Mount Sinai]

Woah. This thread is hot. My conclusion: God truly is on Mount Sinai. In my opinion, MD and DO degrees should be consolidated into a single degree. It is the only way to avoid all of this politics within the clinical environment. Everything else has been said.

 

[theseeker4]

Woah. This thread is hot. My conclusion: God truly is on Mount Sinai. In my opinion, MD and DO degrees should be consolidated into a single degree. It is the only way to avoid all of this politics within the clinical environment. Everything else has been said.

That is fine, as long as they don't make me waste my time learning OMM.

 

[Mount Sinai]

I recently figured out that one of my docs is a DO, but I do not recall her using OMM on me. We stopped seeing her though: she had a crush on my dad...and other reasons.

 

[Kadava Reviva]

Again, another premed making statements on the reality of DO practice in this country. You dont know what the reality is, so dont make statements like you do.

Doctors are judged by the quality of their work, and by their patient outcomes. Sure, docs out there might look down upon DOs for being DOs. There are also doctors out there that might look down upon a colleague because they are black, or jewish, or hispanic, or whatever.

People need to stop concerning themselves with the possibility that someone might look down upon you because of something superficial like a degree. Again, high self esteem goes a long way in life....worry about yourself and the quality of your work, and not what others think of your based on superficial traits.

You may want to remove Jewish from this list. I am not Jewish myself and don't discriminate against any group but, come one! If I could, I would choose a Jewish Dr., lawyer, Accountant, etc. It may be a stereotype but, we all know Ashkenazi Jews are top of their field in many professions, especially medicine and law.

 

[Kadava Reviva]

Well I know a couple of MDs who are medical consultants for drug companies, tv shows, and are authors in their spare time. I asked them if they run into DOs who have similar type jobs and they said that they have never met a DO who is a consultant or something along those lines.

I mean there's a reason why all the medical shows you see on tv have MDs and no DOs lol, its called House MD not House DO, etc.

Scientific research at its best!

 

[Kadava Reviva]

I dont speak french, but am figuring that means "yes they are." I thought quebec was one of the provinces that doesnt take US DOs.

Actually, the phrase «Québec, pas si.» makes no sense whatsoever.

«Si» can either mean "if" or "yes" and «pas» means not.

So «Québec, pas si» would either mean "Québec, not if" or "Québec, not yes".

I have no idea what tkim meant.

 

[tkim]

Ah yes, the application of those evidence-based guidelines from all the peer-reviewed papers studying the differences between OMM techniques and in which cases they are best used.

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/e...11/04/17/trial_and_too_many_errors/?page=full

You can manipulate data to produce whatever results you want. EBM is not a panacea, nor the be-all-end-all, and the smug student holding it up as the differentiation between osteopathic and allopathic medicine should look into their own house - the line is thinner than you think.

I don't believe in the majority of OMM aside from it's PT-ish applications, but remember much of allopathic medicine is based on rote and tradition and is not rooted in EBM. Further, some of EBM is the result of flawed or biased studies. While it's admirable to try to firm up the cause-effect link between diseases and treatments, sometimes it's not there, or the results of flawed studies will drive you to the wrong conclusions.

OMM may be the most glaring of osteopathic non-EBM treatments, but allopathic medicine and pharma has plenty to go around as well.

 

[Kadava Reviva]

The big picture is that they still can't practice in some places that US MD's can. But who would honestly want to work in the canadian health care system, besides a pcp? I equate it to working for the VA

You prefer HMOs, frivolous malpractice lawsuits, exhorbitant insurance prices, collecting bills, being unsure if patients can pay, etc.? Sure it's socialised medicine, but you get to work as much as you want to earn and know you're going to get paid, regardless of the patient's income or lack of. As far as socialised medicine goes, Canadian doctors a pretty well remunerated. Compare salaries with G.B., France, etc. Not too shabby. Furthermore, Canadian doctors have a lot less restrictions as to what treatment can be performed without HMOs breathing down their necks to keep the costs down.

So, there! Nah, nah, nah, boo, boo, stick your head in doo-doo!

 

[willen101383]

You may want to remove Jewish from this list. I am not Jewish myself and don't discriminate against any group but, come one! If I could, I would choose a Jewish Dr., lawyer, Accountant, etc. It may be a stereotype but, we all know Ashkenazi Jews are top of their field in many professions, especially medicine and law.

Dude everytime you quote me you make me laugh...keep it up lol.

I am a born and raised jew turned atheist. Although I will admit I do like the traditions and matzah ball soup and gefilte fish....and lets not forget lox and bagels!

 

[EnergyDrink]

Actually, the phrase «Québec, pas si.» makes no sense whatsoever.

«Si» can either mean "if" or "yes" and «pas» means not.

So «Québec, pas si» would either mean "Québec, not if" or "Québec, not yes".

I have no idea what tkim meant.

Not so

 

[tkim]

Not so

 

[Kadava Reviva]

Dude everytime you quote me you make me laugh...keep it up lol.

I am a born and raised jew turned atheist. Although I will admit I do like the traditions and matzah ball soup and gefilte fish....and lets not forget lox and bagels!

I was talking more about the ethnicity than the religion.

 

[Kadava Reviva]

Not so

Donc, il (elle) aurait du écrire «Pas au Québec».

 

[DrMediterranean]

Whether or not it's a good thing or there's any basis for it, MD is more accepted and prestigious and gives you significant early career advantages over DO counterparts (just look at match statistics). Also, I have heard that many DO schools are willing to accept applicants they know cannot complete the work in order to fill out a class and for the money. That's unethical. I also don't like the idea of my friends and colleagues not making it through.

I also think going DO has a tendency to pigeon hole people into certain specialties, if only because others (like surgicals) have a strong tendency to reject DOs for residency.

Funny you mentioned match statistics. Check this out:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=813819

Ahem, ahem... DOs get plenty of good matches for competitive specialties, much more than they are given credit for. Truth be told, MDs might match better into more competitive specialties, but the difference is so small and only noticeable in certain specialties. And even then, as a DO you still have a chance at getting whatever specialty you choose, you aren't locked out of anything by any means.

I've noticed that lots of people here on SDN are really into Emergency Medicine, if you check out the statistics 12% of DOs match EM whereas 7% of MDs match EM. This shows that its really hard to make really general blanket statements (i.e. MD gets more competitive specialities) about anything. For example, the school I will be attending (MSUCOM) is HUGE on ortho, each graduating class has a large above-average number of people matching ortho.... if that's your cup of tea. The truth is, unless you go to a top20 MD school, you are not at that much of a significant advantage over DOs when applying for competitive specialties. I bet you 99% of these people who make this assertion will never even get close to matching Derm, RadOnc, Neurosurg.

Physicians look down on people for many reasons. American grads look down on Caribbean grads, American physicians look down on foreign physicians, specialists look down on PCPs, etc.
So basically, if you don't care about prestige that much (DO's have prestige too, don't hate), want to be a physician, and are comfortable with the size of your penis, then going to a DO school is awesome! Going to a MD school is awesome too, of course

 

[tkim]

Donc, il (elle) aurait du écrire «Pas au Québec».

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySRf8m3plrM[/YOUTUBE]

 

[El Dooderino]

Funny you mentioned match statistics. Check this out:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=813819

Ahem, ahem... DOs get plenty of good matches for competitive specialties, much more than they are given credit for. Truth be told, MDs might match better into more competitive specialties, but the difference is so small and only noticeable in certain specialties. And even then, as a DO you still have a chance at getting whatever specialty you choose, you aren't locked out of anything by any means.

I've noticed that lots of people here on SDN are really into Emergency Medicine, if you check out the statistics 12% of DOs match EM whereas 7% of MDs match EM. This shows that its really hard to make really general blanket statements (i.e. MD gets more competitive specialities) about anything. For example, the school I will be attending (MSUCOM) is HUGE on ortho, each graduating class has a large above-average number of people matching ortho.... if that's your cup of tea. The truth is, unless you go to a top20 MD school, you are not at that much of a significant advantage over DOs when applying for competitive specialties. I bet you 99% of these people who make this assertion will never even get close to matching Derm, RadOnc, Neurosurg.

Physicians look down on people for many reasons. American grads look down on Caribbean grads, American physicians look down on foreign physicians, specialists look down on PCPs, etc.
So basically, if you don't care about prestige that much (DO's have prestige too, don't hate), want to be a physician, and are comfortable with the size of your penis, then going to a DO school is awesome! Going to a MD school is awesome too, of course

While it's great you're excited about your school, these statements just aren't true. The difference between MD and DO when it comes to the match is huge. Someone had a thread where they compared the best DO school match list (PCOM I think) to lower tier MD schools (whichever you choose) and the MD match list absolutely blew the doors off the DO list. Is this fair? I don't know. To ignore it doesn't benefit you though

 

[willen101383]

While it's great you're excited about your school, these statements just aren't true. The difference between MD and DO when it comes to the match is huge. Someone had a thread where they compared the best DO school match list (PCOM I think) to lower tier MD schools (whichever you choose) and the MD match list absolutely blew the doors off the DO list. Is this fair? I don't know. To ignore it doesn't benefit you though

Yeah, dont think you can say that morehouse and meharry blow the doors off PCOMs match list, but nobody can say that DOs fare as well as MDs in their own match in general. The differences are massive...and the difference in quality between most AOA programs and most ACGME programs is also pretty significant. That being said, some excellent AOA programs exist, and plenty of dually accredited programs also exist.

 

[Kadava Reviva]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySRf8m3plrM[/YOUTUBE]

An obvious mistake in Guy's statements is that Roch Voisine is from New Brunswick, not Québec, although most Québecois don't even know that, so , although incorrect, it would be a typical satement for a Québecker to say. Céline Dion though, Ugggh! They should take that habitante's passport away and prohibit her from leaving the trailer park where she was born. Imagine all the trailer windows she broke when she shrieked. Thankfully, they don't have tornadoes over there, so the cardboard windows stayed secure. Yes, there are rednecks and hillbillies in Québec. They eat poutine, drink Labbatt 50, smoke Mark 10s, drive pick up trucks and want to separate from Canuckistan. You don't want to listen to French country music. It's like bad American country music, without the talent. I wish I could say more but, I gotta go.

 

[DrMediterranean]

While it's great you're excited about your school, these statements just aren't true. The difference between MD and DO when it comes to the match is huge. Someone had a thread where they compared the best DO school match list (PCOM I think) to lower tier MD schools (whichever you choose) and the MD match list absolutely blew the doors off the DO list. Is this fair? I don't know. To ignore it doesn't benefit you though

I stand by what I said. Did you even check out that thread I posted? Check the percentages listed in the excel document by specialty. Go to line 261 "NRMP + AOA Matching percentages". If you guys wanna argue that DOs are at "huge" disadvantage for the MD match, I won't argue against that. I don't think it's fair to think this way at all. DOs have their own match. You can certainly obtain a competitive speciality through the AOA match available to DOs.

 

[willen101383]

An obvious mistake in Guy's statements is that Roch Voisine is from New Brunswick, not Québec, although most Québecois don't even know that, so , although incorrect, it would be a typical satement for a Québecker to say. Céline Dion though, Ugggh! They should take that habitante's passport away and prohibit her from leaving the trailer park where she was born. Imagine all the trailer windows she broke when she shrieked. Thankfully, they don't have tornadoes over there, so the cardboard windows stayed secure. Yes, there are rednecks and hillbillies in Québec. They eat poutine, drink Labbatt 50, smoke Mark 10s, drive pick up trucks and want to separate from Canuckistan. You don't want to listen to French country music. It's like bad American country music, without the talent. I wish I could say more but, I gotta go.

Labatt 50! American here but grew up in up upstate NY drinkin a fair share of XXX and blue. Great stuff Pretty significant Canadian influence up there.

 

[willen101383]

I stand by what I said. Did you even check out that thread I posted? Check the percentages listed in the excel document by specialty. Go to line 261 "NRMP + AOA Matching percentages". If you guys wanna argue that DOs are at "huge" disadvantage for the MD match, I won't argue against that. I don't think it's fair to think this way at all. DOs have their own match. You can certainly obtain a competitive speciality through the AOA match available to DOs.

Nobody is arguing that man. We know the AOA match exists. But the fact of the matter is that DOs dont perform as well in the MD match (and they shouldnt its the MD match and we are damn lucky to even get access to it considering the MDs cant match to AOA programs). Sure, some MD specialties/programs are pretty accepting of DOs, but the best programs out there generally are not. And of the programs that take DO students MD students are always going to fare better.

Its just the reality of the situation as unfortunate as it is.

You know I am a DO student right?

 

[GraceEuphoria]

very rare.

In practice, MD and DO are typically the same (many DOs thinking manipulation is crap). I personally think there are more opportunities for MDs in the big picture. DO schools compete with the caribbean for many students so, make with that what you want. I was a little disappointed to find out that there is a for-profit DO school...

Could DO urologists being rare have anything at all to do with the fact that UROLOGISTS are rare?? I mean I get it, it's an overall percentage of the existing urologists we're looking at here, but still. Not many people at all are interested in urology, and the DO pool of students is obviously smaller since there are far fewer DO schools in existence...

DOs claim the holistic side, but ultimately, if a DO doesn't use OMM, there is no difference in how MDs and DOs treat patients. It is a claim DO schools make, but in reality, it just doesn't work like that. You wouldn't notice a difference.

I really think this depends on the specialty you are talking about here....I've shadowed enough and seen enough doctors as patients to know that the dynamic is different. I also have many friends training in allopathic schools and we talk shop regularly about our experiences. There ARE differences in training. Does it necessarily mean an MD or DO is going to practice better? Of course not, which is why these generalized statements are just unnecessary.

most people only do DO out of necessity, so even if its wrong, they're looked down upon slightly

Your country does (USA). The rest of the world, not so much. And, if I went to a hospital in the US, and I was given a DO, I'd ask for an MD.

Bahahahaha. This is just...I don't know, ridiculous is the only word that will come to mind. Honestly. And asking for an MD?? Sure. I'll make sure to do that the next time I have disabling back pain like I did in undergrad. It was awesome when I went to the clinic and the doctor NEVER TOUCHED ME. How do you treat a patient with back pain and never touch their back? Oh, right, I know- it's because it wouldn't have done much good since he couldn't have done anything about it. This isn't a slam on allopathic physicians; it's simply a statement of fact. Even if you think DOs are so much more inferior, acknowledge the difference in skillset (if nothing else, at least in the musculoskeletal system) and move on.

to answer the OP first....the top 3 reasons you should definitely choose US MD over DO if at all possible:

1. COMLEX.
It is notoriously a poorly made test and more and more allo residencies have stopped accepting it (from what i've heard) so not only do you have to struggle through this terribly written exam but you almost have to take the USMLE steps in addition!

2. Clinical rotations at DO schools are generally sub-par.
From hearing the experiences of friends at (well respected) DO schools and from reading threads on sdn it is obvious that the experience during clinical years at some (most?) DO schools is more similar to the experience at caribbean schools than it is to US MD schools.
At a certain DO school in NY there are 40+ clinical sites scattered throughout a 100+ mile radius with zero standardization and what seems like complete decentralization. This is clearly a byproduct of not having your own hospital. I was also told by a DO resident at my US MD school that the clinical rotations were far less rigorous at his school.
So while pre-clinical years might be similar no matter where you go once you get to third year the inferiority of some (most?) DO schools might become glaringly obvious. Those same DO schools are very well served by premeds who only care/ask about the preclinical years when interviewing and completely overlook what really matters.

3. Very difficult to match well.
This has already been discussed to death in this thread and elsewhere.



.....and that's why you should go to a US MD school if at all possible. you hear many people who settle for a DO school say that it's ok because they're going to be in the top 10% of their class and match into their dream specialty anyway but chances are that won't happen.




probably one of the dumbest things i've ever read on sdn. if your grades are poor and you bombed the mcat because you were "investing time in people" (whatever that means) your priorities were completely out of whack.

1. Where do people come up with this about COMLEX? I'd love to read data showing that the test used to license me as practicing physician is bad. Is the test different? Yes. There are reasons for this....many of the questions on the exam are tailored to OMM principles. That is, it's not an OMM questions, but knowing sympathetic levels of the spine will immediately guide you to the BEST answer. And that is what COMLEX is about....finding the BEST answer, not memorizing a bunch of buzz words that First Aid points out.

Also, a lot of the reason why students claim they must take USMLE as well is because the hospital they are applying for residency at has never HEARD of COMLEX. Should this be surprising in a state with no DO residencies or DO schools? No. Many students at our school just called the programs, spoke with people and once it was explained, they were able to substitute in COMLEX. Additionally, it should be clarified that many programs only require the USMLE for the SECOND step of exams. Most will accept COMLEX for Step 1 (this is what I am told at least....please correct me if I'm wrong).

2. This likely does have to do with the school. However, I will speak on my school's behalf that this is NOT the case. Yeah yeah, I go to a newer school, yeah, I'm biased. Yeah, I haven't been through rotations yet. Bring on all the typical responses. But as much as I'm allowed to make these statements, based on adjunct professors that come teach us and say our students are fantastic, based on the first classes of students that have been out on rotations, etc, you can make the statements saying my school's rotations are subpar (point being, you have NO idea that that is true; just because your friend was dissatisfied with his doesn't mean JACK). It's important to remember during all this nonsense MD vs. DO debate that a LOT of our clinical preceptors ARE MDs. It's not like we get some major disservice to our education because of our DO training. And our students, at least, get RAVING reviews on clinicals and say fantastic things about their experiences. With our program at least, we have a VERY large checklist of things we must complete for graduation. Friends of mine talk about how they have to stay late and request to learn procedures. They might get to do ONE at times. Our checklists require us to do multiples of nearly everything. That's a high standard in the world of medical education, I promise.


The thing I'll never understand about this debate is why it even exists. If you're insecure about going DO, then DON'T APPLY. Honestly. There are people in my class that dislike OMM and came in doing nothing but trashing it....but even they will tell you there is utility in it, even if you don't like all of it. I would rather see all the doubters just apply MD and leave us alone lol. That being said, with the increase in DO schools (and class sizes), there are going to be more and more practicing DOs in the next decades. I repeatedly hear stories of the upperclassmen at my school being asked by their MD preceptors to teach them and their colleagues their OMM techniques, to TREAT them (and family members/friends) with the techniques and to "do that same thing you did to our last patient with that." The sooner people get over themselves, the sooner we can all just practice medicine and quit worrying about all of this.

 

[DrMediterranean]

Nobody is arguing that man. We know the AOA match exists. But the fact of the matter is that DOs dont perform as well in the MD match (and they shouldnt its the MD match and we are damn lucky to even get access to it considering the MDs cant match to AOA programs). Sure, some MD specialties/programs are pretty accepting of DOs, but the best programs out there generally are not. And of the programs that take DO students MD students are always going to fare better.

Its just the reality of the situation as unfortunate as it is.

You know I am a DO student right?

Yeah, I know you are from half of the posts on this thread being from you lol. But it is unfair to judge matches this way. I never argued that the DOs match just as well in the MD match. That is a stupid argument to make, it's called the MD match for a reason right? If you don't care if you are AOA board certified or ACGME board certified, my arguments still stand.

EDIT:
My fault if I made the assumption that you guys were talking about DO's matching into MD AND DO residencies. But of course, you guys are making the assumption that ALL DO's want to do an ACGME residency.

 

[willen101383]

Yeah, I know you are from half of the posts on this thread being from you lol. But it is unfair to judge matches this way. I never argued that the DOs match just as well in the MD match. That is a stupid argument to make, it's called the MD match for a reason right? If you don't care if you are AOA board certified or ACGME board certified, my arguments still stand.

Right. If you dont care whether you train via AOA or ACGME then you are absolutely right. However ACGME programs are generally better programs and more sought after. They WILL open more doors for you with regard to fellowship training especially in IM subspecialties, especially with the new schtick from the ACGME that unless you trained in a ACGME residency you cant move on into a ACGME fellowship.

Furthermore there are no osteopathic radiation onc residency programs. I realize this matters to very few people, but for those who want to go this route they are going to be out of luck.


To respond to your EDIT, you are right. Most DO students stick with the AOA programs. We were quoted by our dean that only about 30% take the USMLE (which I would guess would comprise most of the people looking to go after ACGME).

 

[El Dooderino]

Yeah, dont think you can say that morehouse and meharry blow the doors off PCOMs match list, but nobody can say that DOs fare as well as MDs in their own match in general. The differences are massive...and the difference in quality between most AOA programs and most ACGME programs is also pretty significant. That being said, some excellent AOA programs exist, and plenty of dually accredited programs also exist.

MOREHOUSE
HOSPITAL PROGRAM
Univ. S. Florida COM-Tampa, FL FAPC
Navy- Nat. Capital Consortium-MD TRANS
Emory Univ.-SOM-GA PEDS
Albany Medical Center-NY ANES
Air Force-Keesler Med. Ctr.-MS SURG
*SUNY Upstate-Syracuse-NY OPHTH
Mem. Hlth.-Univ. of Med Ctr.-GA PEDS
Mercer U. SOA/Med. Ctr. Cent.-GA FAPC
Atlanta Med. Ctr.-GA FAPC
Indiana Univ. Sch. of Med.-IN PEDS/PSYCH/CHILDPSYCH
Albany Medical Ctr.-NY MEDPEDS
Howard Univ. Hosp.-DC OB/GYN
Dartmouth-Hitchcock Med. Ctr.-NH PEDS
Stanford Univ. Progs.-CA PEDS
Children’s Hosp.-Oakland-CA PEDS
Tulane Univ. SOM-LA PSYCH
Morehouse Sch. of Med.-GA OB/GYN
Rush Univ. Med. Ctr.-IL SURG
Memorial Hlth.-Univ. Med. Ctr.-GA INMD
Jackson Memorial Hosp.-FL PEDS
Louisiana St. Univ.-LA MEDPRE
Tulane Univ. SOM-LA PEDS/PSYCH/CHILDPSYCH
Emory Univ. SOM-GA MEDPC
Albany Medical Ctr.-NY OB/GYN
Emory Univ. SOM-GA MEDPC
SUNY HSC Brooklyn-NY OB/GYN
*Emory Univ. SOM-GA OPHTH
University of Hawaii SURG
Einstein/Montefiore Med. Ctr.-NY MEDPRE
Emory Univ. SOM-GA ERMD
Yale-New Haven Hosp.-CT MEDPC
Orlando Health-FL PEDS
Morehouse Sch. of Med.-GA PEDS
Jackson Memorial Hosp.-FL OB/GYN
Univ. Illinois COM-Chicago-IL INMD
Univ. Tennessee COM-Chatt.-TN INMD
Baton Rouge Gen. Med. Ctr.-LA FAPC
Children’s National Med. Ctr.-DC PEDS
Cincinnati Children’s Hosp. MC-OH PEDS
Univ. Texas Med. Branch.-Galveston ORTHOSURG
Univ. Oklahoma COM-Tulsa INMD
*Emory Univ. SOM-GA OPHTH
Henry Ford HSC-MI ANES
Washington Hospital Ctr.-DC INMD
Morehouse Sch. of Med.-GA OB/GYN
Tripler Army Med. Ctr.-HI PEDS
*Johns Hopkins Hosp.-MD ANES

Hopkins, Emory in a ton of stuff (2 ophtho, Stanford, Yale, Dartmouth, nevermind pretty much every other match being at big, reputable academic institutions. And this is probably the "worst" MD match list and only 47 people. Looking at the PCOM match list, which is huge by the way, the average person is ending up in some community hospital while at the same time there's a lack of much top tier stuff. My original post was just meant to highlight the ridiculousness of saying only top 20 MD schools help, everything after that is MD=DO for match reasons

 

[willen101383]

MOREHOUSE
HOSPITAL PROGRAM
Univ. S. Florida COM-Tampa, FL FAPC
Navy- Nat. Capital Consortium-MD TRANS
Emory Univ.-SOM-GA PEDS
Albany Medical Center-NY ANES
Air Force-Keesler Med. Ctr.-MS SURG
*SUNY Upstate-Syracuse-NY OPHTH
Mem. Hlth.-Univ. of Med Ctr.-GA PEDS
Mercer U. SOA/Med. Ctr. Cent.-GA FAPC
Atlanta Med. Ctr.-GA FAPC
Indiana Univ. Sch. of Med.-IN PEDS/PSYCH/CHILDPSYCH
Albany Medical Ctr.-NY MEDPEDS
Howard Univ. Hosp.-DC OB/GYN
Dartmouth-Hitchcock Med. Ctr.-NH PEDS
Stanford Univ. Progs.-CA PEDS
Children's Hosp.-Oakland-CA PEDS
Tulane Univ. SOM-LA PSYCH
Morehouse Sch. of Med.-GA OB/GYN
Rush Univ. Med. Ctr.-IL SURG
Memorial Hlth.-Univ. Med. Ctr.-GA INMD
Jackson Memorial Hosp.-FL PEDS
Louisiana St. Univ.-LA MEDPRE
Tulane Univ. SOM-LA PEDS/PSYCH/CHILDPSYCH
Emory Univ. SOM-GA MEDPC
Albany Medical Ctr.-NY OB/GYN
Emory Univ. SOM-GA MEDPC
SUNY HSC Brooklyn-NY OB/GYN
*Emory Univ. SOM-GA OPHTH
University of Hawaii SURG
Einstein/Montefiore Med. Ctr.-NY MEDPRE
Emory Univ. SOM-GA ERMD
Yale-New Haven Hosp.-CT MEDPC
Orlando Health-FL PEDS
Morehouse Sch. of Med.-GA PEDS
Jackson Memorial Hosp.-FL OB/GYN
Univ. Illinois COM-Chicago-IL INMD
Univ. Tennessee COM-Chatt.-TN INMD
Baton Rouge Gen. Med. Ctr.-LA FAPC
Children's National Med. Ctr.-DC PEDS
Cincinnati Children's Hosp. MC-OH PEDS
Univ. Texas Med. Branch.-Galveston ORTHOSURG
Univ. Oklahoma COM-Tulsa INMD
*Emory Univ. SOM-GA OPHTH
Henry Ford HSC-MI ANES
Washington Hospital Ctr.-DC INMD
Morehouse Sch. of Med.-GA OB/GYN
Tripler Army Med. Ctr.-HI PEDS
*Johns Hopkins Hosp.-MD ANES

Hopkins, Emory in a ton of stuff (2 ophtho, Stanford, Yale, Dartmouth, nevermind pretty much every other match being at big, reputable academic institutions. And this is probably the "worst" MD match list and only 47 people. Looking at the PCOM match list, which is huge by the way, the average person is ending up in some community hospital while at the same time there's a lack of much top tier stuff. My original post was just meant to highlight the ridiculousness of saying only top 20 MD schools help, everything after that is MD=DO for match reasons

Yeah I obviously agree with you there, and if you read my posts in this thread I think you know that I am far from a rabid DO supporter. However, I still dont really see that shocking of a difference between the 2 that one would classify as "blowing the doors off." Its a good match list absolutely...just not so great that it puts PCOM to shame or anything. And yeah, that match list is insanely huge. We have 275 in my class, but I added up the spots on the 2011 list and it was like 350 students or something....there are not even that many seats in our preclinical lecture halls so I think that numbering is off.

Furthermore community hospital=/= bad training. We have a bunch of local community hospitals here in philly that are like 5/6/700+ bed hospitals with all the resources youd expect from a hospital of this size. Most of those EM programs are great, they do call it Killadelphia for a reason. Einstein, which is one of PCOMs major rotation sites has the most penetrating trauma of ANY hospital in the city. Are IM programs at these hospitals going to get the breadth of pathology that a major academic center would get? Likely not, but that doesnt mean they arent still going to get excellent cases. Not everyone in the city ends up at HUP.

 

[ensuii]

Could DO urologists being rare have anything at all to do with the fact that UROLOGISTS are rare?? I mean I get it, it's an overall percentage of the existing urologists we're looking at here, but still. Not many people at all are interested in urology, and the DO pool of students is obviously smaller since there are far fewer DO schools in existence...



I really think this depends on the specialty you are talking about here....I've shadowed enough and seen enough doctors as patients to know that the dynamic is different. I also have many friends training in allopathic schools and we talk shop regularly about our experiences. There ARE differences in training. Does it necessarily mean an MD or DO is going to practice better? Of course not, which is why these generalized statements are just unnecessary.




Bahahahaha. This is just...I don't know, ridiculous is the only word that will come to mind. Honestly. And asking for an MD?? Sure. I'll make sure to do that the next time I have disabling back pain like I did in undergrad. It was awesome when I went to the clinic and the doctor NEVER TOUCHED ME. How do you treat a patient with back pain and never touch their back? Oh, right, I know- it's because it wouldn't have done much good since he couldn't have done anything about it. This isn't a slam on allopathic physicians; it's simply a statement of fact. Even if you think DOs are so much more inferior, acknowledge the difference in skillset (if nothing else, at least in the musculoskeletal system) and move on.


1. Where do people come up with this about COMLEX? I'd love to read data showing that the test used to license me as practicing physician is bad. Is the test different? Yes. There are reasons for this....many of the questions on the exam are tailored to OMM principles. That is, it's not an OMM questions, but knowing sympathetic levels of the spine will immediately guide you to the BEST answer. And that is what COMLEX is about....finding the BEST answer, not memorizing a bunch of buzz words that First Aid points out.

Also, a lot of the reason why students claim they must take USMLE as well is because the hospital they are applying for residency at has never HEARD of COMLEX. Should this be surprising in a state with no DO residencies or DO schools? No. Many students at our school just called the programs, spoke with people and once it was explained, they were able to substitute in COMLEX. Additionally, it should be clarified that many programs only require the USMLE for the SECOND step of exams. Most will accept COMLEX for Step 1 (this is what I am told at least....please correct me if I'm wrong).

2. This likely does have to do with the school. However, I will speak on my school's behalf that this is NOT the case. Yeah yeah, I go to a newer school, yeah, I'm biased. Yeah, I haven't been through rotations yet. Bring on all the typical responses. But as much as I'm allowed to make these statements, based on adjunct professors that come teach us and say our students are fantastic, based on the first classes of students that have been out on rotations, etc, you can make the statements saying my school's rotations are subpar (point being, you have NO idea that that is true; just because your friend was dissatisfied with his doesn't mean JACK). It's important to remember during all this nonsense MD vs. DO debate that a LOT of our clinical preceptors ARE MDs. It's not like we get some major disservice to our education because of our DO training. And our students, at least, get RAVING reviews on clinicals and say fantastic things about their experiences. With our program at least, we have a VERY large checklist of things we must complete for graduation. Friends of mine talk about how they have to stay late and request to learn procedures. They might get to do ONE at times. Our checklists require us to do multiples of nearly everything. That's a high standard in the world of medical education, I promise.


The thing I'll never understand about this debate is why it even exists. If you're insecure about going DO, then DON'T APPLY. Honestly. There are people in my class that dislike OMM and came in doing nothing but trashing it....but even they will tell you there is utility in it, even if you don't like all of it. I would rather see all the doubters just apply MD and leave us alone lol. That being said, with the increase in DO schools (and class sizes), there are going to be more and more practicing DOs in the next decades. I repeatedly hear stories of the upperclassmen at my school being asked by their MD preceptors to teach them and their colleagues their OMM techniques, to TREAT them (and family members/friends) with the techniques and to "do that same thing you did to our last patient with that." The sooner people get over themselves, the sooner we can all just practice medicine and quit worrying about all of this.

I've seen it posted a few times that DO schools schools don't have affiliated teaching hospitals and therefore provide poor clinical rotations.

Considering there are a significant number of MD schools without affiliated teaching hospitals, I don't think the existence of a large teaching hospital is a necessity for a valuable educational experience. I do however think that rotations vary GREATLY from school to school irrespective of whether or not its a MD or DO school. This is one of the reasons why many upperclassmen suggest to pre-med applicants to ask about rotations everywhere they apply.

I'm sure at some DO schools the rotations are awful. There was a post on the allo board a while ago of a DO student who had a nurse as a preceptor for his surgery rotation. I'd stab myself in my right testicle (it's my least favorite) if I had to go through that. I don't think that going to a DO school means you'll certainly have subpar clinical rotations. At my DO school on each of my rotations I have 2-3 hours of didactics split in the morning and afternoon with required student presentations to faculty at the end of the rotation. After being on rotations for about 6 months or so, I've written hundred of progress notes/H&Ps (that actually went into the chart) and gotten to do a lot of cool things like blood draws, injections, intubations, a few LPs, a few ABG's, 3 central lines, a dozen vaginal deliveries, etc..

Being at an MD school doesn't guarantee you quality rotations either; I've heard of people graduating not knowing how to put in a foley.

Regardless of where you intend to go to medical school, you should have an idea of how clinical rotations are like before you accept the admission.

 

[GraceEuphoria]

I've seen it posted a few times that DO schools schools don't have affiliated teaching hospitals and therefore provide poor clinical rotations.

Considering there are a significant number of MD schools without affiliated teaching hospitals, I don't think the existence of a large teaching hospital is a necessity for a valuable educational experience. I do however think that rotations vary GREATLY from school to school irrespective of whether or not its a MD or DO school. This is one of the reasons why many upperclassmen suggest to pre-med applicants to ask about rotations everywhere they apply.

I'm sure at some DO schools the rotations are awful. There was a post on the allo board a while ago of a DO student who had a nurse as a preceptor for his surgery rotation. I'd stab myself in my right testicle (it's my least favorite) if I had to go through that. I don't think that going to a DO school means you'll certainly have subpar clinical rotations. At my DO school on each of my rotations I have 2-3 hours of didactics split in the morning and afternoon with required student presentations to faculty at the end of the rotation. After being on rotations for about 6 months or so, I've written hundred of progress notes/H&Ps (that actually went into the chart) and gotten to do a lot of cool things like blood draws, injections, intubations, a few LPs, a few ABG's, 3 central lines, a dozen vaginal deliveries, etc..

Being at an MD school doesn't guarantee you quality rotations either; I've heard of people graduating not knowing how to put in a foley.

Regardless of where you intend to go to medical school, you should have an idea of how clinical rotations are like before you accept the admission.

And I would definitely agree with that. I guess I just always come from the school of thought that regardless of where you go, you're getting a medical education. Certain aspects might end up being less than desirable and you may have to make up for it during your residency training, others might blow your colleagues out of the water during your residency, but either way....you're a doc. Then again, I've never been ultra competitive or worried about getting the absolute best of the best with all this. I just want to be a doctor, plain and simple. Every program will have its pros and cons- I mean prime example, I thought it would be STANDARD for a med school to put you through ACLS training before working in the hospitals for rotations. I mean what good are you in a code otherwise? I am from Indiana and IU does NOT put their students through it. It's not that I think any less of the program, but I'm happy to know I have that edge if other schools don't do it (maybe IU is an odd ball in that regard, but I know they aren't totally alone). I suppose that is a difference when you get to train in a community hospital....in most academic teaching hospitals, when a code happens and you're a student, you step back while the code team handles it. That may not be the case EVERYWHERE, but when I talk to students at other schools, that's what I hear. With smaller community hospitals, you are helping, even if it is minimal. Again, all schools have pros and cons and it's truly a matter of what kind of experience you want to have. I happen to not really care about the prestige of my training and just want more hands-on experience if possible.

 

[Gut Shot]

was just about to clarify...although, where did you get a total of 3875 students?

Good question. The 1895 is actually 1894, and 254 of those didn't even participate in the DO match (they went military).

Source

 

[TriagePreMed]

Can't believe this discussion is still going on. It's really simple: MD > DO > CaribMD.

There's no surprise the higher in the ladder you go (school rankings), the better possibilities there are for you. Come on, it's common sense here. However, not being at the top doesn't mean you are a failure, and with the AOA match, it gives many more students the ability to get into the specialty of their choice.

Just go to the best school that you can (MD or DO), and if you feel a particular school (be it MD or DO) doesn't offer you what you need/want/etc., just move on and find another school or profession.

Seriously, how is it shocking to anyone that going to better schools opens more doors? This is not a "medical school" issue. Most of you have been to undergrad and know your degree from UC Riverside will not open the same doors as a Cal Tech degree, but it also doesn't mean the UC Riverside didn't get an adequate education, can't climb the ladder, or they will never find a job.

And lastly, most of you circle-jerking over Derm, NeuroSurg, and RadOnc will never get there (MD or DO). In fact, the majority of pre-meds never get into any medical school anyway.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Can't believe this discussion is still going on. It's really simple: MD > DO > CaribMD.

There's no surprise the higher in the ladder you go (school rankings), the better possibilities there are for you. Come on, it's common sense here. However, not being at the top doesn't mean you are a failure, and with the AOA match, it gives many more students the ability to get into the specialty of their choice.

Just go to the best school that you can (MD or DO), and if you feel a particular school (be it MD or DO) doesn't offer you what you need/want/etc., just move on and find another school or profession.

Seriously, how is it shocking to anyone that going to better schools opens more doors? This is not a "medical school" issue. Most of you have been to undergrad and know your degree from UC Riverside will not open the same doors as a Cal Tech degree, but it also doesn't mean the UC Riverside didn't get an adequate education, can't climb the ladder, or they will never find a job.

And lastly, most of you circle-jerking over Derm, NeuroSurg, and RadOnc will never get there (MD or DO). In fact, the majority of pre-meds never get into any medical school anyway.

Thank you for this. Especially the last part.

It doesn't matter so much where you go, it's what you do with your time. Same for undergrad.

What student will a medical school want: A student with a 3.5 gpa, 26 MCAT who went to a top 20 school or a student who went to a satellite state school, earned a 3.7 and a 30 on the MCAT? Both schools are legit, one *might be more rigorous, one was prolly eaiser to get into, but in the end both students will probably have a shot at an interview.

The student that didn't have a shot at the top 20 undergrad now has a chance to earn a BS degree at the state satellite campus. And if he puts in the work, he can even earn a medical school acceptance. In a way I feel like this is a parallel to MD and DO schools.

In the end, sure DO may not be regarded as highly a MD, but that one DO school may give a person a chance at becoming a physician, even when MD schools didn't give them a chance.

When the day comes, I am applying to both MD and DO schools, and I'm going to whichever gives me an acceptance. At the end of the day, you are still called doctor and you are still saving patients lives. I'll be happy to even receive that opprotunity, MD or DO.

 

[drizzt3117]

You know who else is really good with back pain? Chiropractors.

Bahahahaha. This is just...I don't know, ridiculous is the only word that will come to mind. Honestly. And asking for an MD?? Sure. I'll make sure to do that the next time I have disabling back pain like I did in undergrad. It was awesome when I went to the clinic and the doctor NEVER TOUCHED ME. How do you treat a patient with back pain and never touch their back? Oh, right, I know- it's because it wouldn't have done much good since he couldn't have done anything about it. This isn't a slam on allopathic physicians; it's simply a statement of fact. Even if you think DOs are so much more inferior, acknowledge the difference in skillset (if nothing else, at least in the musculoskeletal system) and move on.


1. Where do people come up with this about COMLEX? I'd love to read data showing that the test used to license me as practicing physician is bad. Is the test different? Yes. There are reasons for this....many of the questions on the exam are tailored to OMM principles. That is, it's not an OMM questions, but knowing sympathetic levels of the spine will immediately guide you to the BEST answer. And that is what COMLEX is about....finding the BEST answer, not memorizing a bunch of buzz words that First Aid points out.

Also, a lot of the reason why students claim they must take USMLE as well is because the hospital they are applying for residency at has never HEARD of COMLEX. Should this be surprising in a state with no DO residencies or DO schools? No. Many students at our school just called the programs, spoke with people and once it was explained, they were able to substitute in COMLEX. Additionally, it should be clarified that many programs only require the USMLE for the SECOND step of exams. Most will accept COMLEX for Step 1 (this is what I am told at least....please correct me if I'm wrong).

2. This likely does have to do with the school. However, I will speak on my school's behalf that this is NOT the case. Yeah yeah, I go to a newer school, yeah, I'm biased. Yeah, I haven't been through rotations yet. Bring on all the typical responses. But as much as I'm allowed to make these statements, based on adjunct professors that come teach us and say our students are fantastic, based on the first classes of students that have been out on rotations, etc, you can make the statements saying my school's rotations are subpar (point being, you have NO idea that that is true; just because your friend was dissatisfied with his doesn't mean JACK). It's important to remember during all this nonsense MD vs. DO debate that a LOT of our clinical preceptors ARE MDs. It's not like we get some major disservice to our education because of our DO training. And our students, at least, get RAVING reviews on clinicals and say fantastic things about their experiences. With our program at least, we have a VERY large checklist of things we must complete for graduation. Friends of mine talk about how they have to stay late and request to learn procedures. They might get to do ONE at times. Our checklists require us to do multiples of nearly everything. That's a high standard in the world of medical education, I promise.


The thing I'll never understand about this debate is why it even exists. If you're insecure about going DO, then DON'T APPLY. Honestly. There are people in my class that dislike OMM and came in doing nothing but trashing it....but even they will tell you there is utility in it, even if you don't like all of it. I would rather see all the doubters just apply MD and leave us alone lol. That being said, with the increase in DO schools (and class sizes), there are going to be more and more practicing DOs in the next decades. I repeatedly hear stories of the upperclassmen at my school being asked by their MD preceptors to teach them and their colleagues their OMM techniques, to TREAT them (and family members/friends) with the techniques and to "do that same thing you did to our last patient with that." The sooner people get over themselves, the sooner we can all just practice medicine and quit worrying about all of this.

 

[drizzt3117]

Do you really want a med student running your code?

And I would definitely agree with that. I guess I just always come from the school of thought that regardless of where you go, you're getting a medical education. Certain aspects might end up being less than desirable and you may have to make up for it during your residency training, others might blow your colleagues out of the water during your residency, but either way....you're a doc. Then again, I've never been ultra competitive or worried about getting the absolute best of the best with all this. I just want to be a doctor, plain and simple. Every program will have its pros and cons- I mean prime example, I thought it would be STANDARD for a med school to put you through ACLS training before working in the hospitals for rotations. I mean what good are you in a code otherwise? I am from Indiana and IU does NOT put their students through it. It's not that I think any less of the program, but I'm happy to know I have that edge if other schools don't do it (maybe IU is an odd ball in that regard, but I know they aren't totally alone). I suppose that is a difference when you get to train in a community hospital....in most academic teaching hospitals, when a code happens and you're a student, you step back while the code team handles it. That may not be the case EVERYWHERE, but when I talk to students at other schools, that's what I hear. With smaller community hospitals, you are helping, even if it is minimal. Again, all schools have pros and cons and it's truly a matter of what kind of experience you want to have. I happen to not really care about the prestige of my training and just want more hands-on experience if possible.

 

[scarshapedstar]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySRf8m3plrM[/YOUTUBE]

Tabernac, I haven't heard this spoof since I had a Québecois roommate in boarding school.

 

[ensuii]

You know who else is really good with back pain? Chiropractors.

Your people skills as astounding. The world thanks you for attempting to become a radiologist.

 

[Gut Shot]

In the past my cursory reading of the NMRP data lead me to believe that where it says:
"Unmatched" X percent and then "withdrew" X percent, that the "withdrawn" individuals were comprising a significant amount of individuals who were unmatched.

I guess this is where I shake my cane.

Active Applicants: 2,178
- Matched: 1,561
- Umatched: 617
Withdrew: 789
No rank list: 175

Source: 2011 NRMP data, page 9

The applicants who withdrew are clearly counted separately.

To address the relatively low number of DOs matching in the AOA match, I can only guess that is due to individuals only ranking absolute favorites in the AOA match as a fall back in case they match in the ACGME match.....and then not matching AOA and taking an ACGME spot instead.

A plausible (partial) explanation. Atta boy!

 

[drizzt3117]

Your people skills as astounding. The world thanks you for attempting to become a radiologist.

Looks like someone has a chip on their shoulder. I'm obviously not being serious, but I think It's pretty funny that you think all DOs are better at treating back pain because they did a few hours of OMM during med school.

 

[ensuii]

Looks like someone has a chip on their shoulder. I'm obviously not being serious, but I think It's pretty funny that you think all DOs are better at treating back pain because they did a few hours of OMM during med school.

No...I just think you're a jerk?

 

[PsP for real]

No...I just think you're a jerk?

Agreed

 

[thesauce]

Mods: can we sticky this thread? Great info in here.

 

[GraceEuphoria]

You know who else is really good with back pain? Chiropractors.

Indeed. I would never deny it. Luckily that wasn't my point To reiterate, I was only trying to make the point that is naive to think that one should specifically request an MD physician over a DO. Personally I'd prefer to see a DO over a chiropractor for LBP because I don't like to be cracked as a first line tx (though I could be quickly revealing my ignorance of chiropractic medicine as I'm sure all of their techniques aren't involving HVLA type techniques)

Do you really want a med student running your code?

Yet another misinterpretation of my post. You'll notice I said helping with the code, not running the code.

 

[Skinceutical]

Yet another misinterpretation of my post. You'll notice I said helping with the code, not running the code.

Most medical students get BLS certification before starting their clinicals. BLS is enough training to know how to do chest compressions, which are the only thing medical students should be doing in a code.

 

[MedPR]

The only downside to DO is having a difficult getting into the most competitive residency slots and fellowships, but the same problem exists for MD graduates. I am pretty sure you will end up somewhere nice especially since the barriers are gradually breaking down.

This. Also, apparently DO programs are more expensive, on average, than allo programs or so I've heard.

While it may be true that the majority of DO students are there mostly because they couldn't get into allo programs, that doesn't mean they aren't as smart or as "good" of a potential doctor as an MD student. If that were true, then DO derms, DO orthopods, DO every-'allo-specialty' would be better doctors than their MD counterparts since the DO residency applicants must have a higher Step 1 score and better ECs than the MD applicants for the same residency.

(Obviously the latter isn't necessarily true either).

Point is, when you are a physician and your patient outcomes don't depend on your grades as a premed or your MCAT score or the letters on your coat.

 

[Skinceutical]

Never mind.

 

[drizzt3117]

No...I just think you're a jerk?

Nm it was the other person's post I quoted. Anyways, I have no problem with DOs, after all, we have a primary care shortage to address and the recent increase in DO schools couldn't have come at a better time.

 

[thesauce]

Nm it was the other person's post I quoted. Anyways, I have no problem with DOs, after all, we have a primary care shortage to address and the recent increase in DO schools couldn't have come at a better time.

This does nothing to address the shortage unless the number of residency spots have increased as well, which they haven't..

 

[GraceEuphoria]

Most medical students get BLS certification before starting their clinicals. BLS is enough training to know how to do chest compressions, which are the only thing medical students should be doing in a code.

Sure...I'm just happy to have my ACLS training under my belt so I'm not just lost in the situation.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Sure...I'm just happy to have my ACLS training under my belt so I'm not just lost in the situation.

aren't you special

 

[ensuii]

I think not having the ACLS training before rotations isn't a big deal honestly. It's just mostly reading the rhythm and knowing the algorhythms. If you memorize the little spiral bound handbook and see a real code or two, (while going through the protocols in your head) I don't feel as if you're missing out by not having the formal training.

Just mtc however.