Will physicians be taxed out the a** if Bernie Sanders is president?

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Interesting. I went kind of the opposite direction after seeing quite clearly just how much money the government took from me even though I wasn't even that wealthy. Not to mention the deduction for SS, a program which on its current trajectory will not even have enough money to pay me back the amount that I paid into it, let alone any interest, entirely due to government mismanagement.

Plus a mandatory "fair share" deduction for paying a union which did absolutely nothing for me at all.

As somebody who has worked both union and non-union I would gladly pay those dues. Just the way you are treated in general is different from my experience. There are good non-union employers dont get me wrong. But with a union, if a paycheck is late and you need the money and payroll is stalling, all you have to do is call up your rep and the situation is fixed asap.

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All it will take would be expanding scope of practice for midlevels to include all of primary care and then mandating that all physicians accept Medicare and/or Medicaid as a condition of licensure/board certification/private insurance payments.

No need to increase income for anyone.
The mandating medicaid/medicare is one of my worries for the dpc movement. They just market it as protecting the poor or point out the racial percentages and make it a racial thing.....then poof, you take medicaid or ou aren't a doctor.

I wouldn't have believed that level of crazy was possible until I saw oregon make it illegal for insurance to reimburse doctors more than nurses
 
All it will take would be expanding scope of practice for midlevels to include all of primary care and then mandating that all physicians accept Medicare and/or Medicaid as a condition of licensure/board certification/private insurance payments.

No need to increase income for anyone.

I would not be too shocked if that happened. As it is, I think there will be a gradual shift of primary care to midlevels and a gradual shift of physicians to specialties/management, assuming residencies adapt. Which is a big assumption.
 
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@sb247 but government inefficiency is it's own problem unrelated to the morality of forced charity as taxes; that is, I assume you'd still object to the taxes funding aid even if the efficiency was on par with private charity?
 
@sb247 but government inefficiency is it's own problem unrelated to the morality of forced charity as taxes; that is, I assume you'd still object to the taxes funding aid even if the efficiency was on par with private charity?
You are correct, I only mentioned efficiency as we were discussing the logistical realities of the hypothethical charity only model with no government welfare.
 
The mandating medicaid/medicare is one of my worries for the dpc movement

I'm unfamiliar with DPC. Quickly looking it up, it doesn't sound too terrible — direct payment + catastrophic coverage sounds like the logical endpoint of the current theories of cost-sharing to reduce overall cost. I must be missing something... What's the catch here? And isn't direct pay the opposite of Medicaid/Medicare?
 
I'm unfamiliar with DPC. Quickly looking it up, it doesn't sound too terrible — direct payment + catastrophic coverage sounds like the logical endpoint of the current theories of cost-sharing to reduce overall cost. I must be missing something... What's the catch here? And isn't direct pay the opposite of Medicaid/Medicare?
They are opposites and it would end the dpc movement
 
If I understand correctly, you mean calls to mandate Medicaid/care concern you because they would end the DPC movement?

If so, I too am of the mind that would be bad. Although I wonder whether more or fewer ER visits would result. Maybe fewer, who knows.

I certainly am learning new things today.
 
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This country is the only country in the world that has nurses with such wide scope of practice....I don't think it's a result of medicaid/medicare but rather a result of our capitalistic approach towards medicine. NP/PA practice rights wouldn't fly with true government oversight like say.....Canada.
 
As somebody who has worked both union and non-union I would gladly pay those dues. Just the way you are treated in general is different from my experience. There are good non-union employers dont get me wrong. But with a union, if a paycheck is late and you need the money and payroll is stalling, all you have to do is call up your rep and the situation is fixed asap.
These were "fair share" deductions. The union took a bite directly from my paycheck even though I chose not to be a member.
 
Even IF doctors have to pay a little more taxes, so what?

I am currently forking money to private insurance who tells me and my doctors which treatments I can or cannot get, who only cares about their own profits!

I'm willing to pay more taxes (in exchange, I'll have $0 healthcare bill) as long as everyone gets Universal Health Care AND private insurance finally stops meddling with Healthcare.

I'm willing to pay more taxes in exchange for free college/education!

I'm confused, you don't think Medicare or Medicaid dictate what treatments are covered? They tend to be the most stringent, with prior authorizations being the most onerous on your time.
 
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People who are truly "less selfish" in action can choose not to take advantage of available deductions so they pay a higher rate of income taxes for the "greater good."


Or they can give in other ways. Regardless once you pay the taxes owed, you have made your contribution to a society at a base level. Anything after that, whether it be charitable donations etc are evidence of being less selfish as well. Just because I don't give more taxes freely does not make my giving taxes freely unselfish. However, I will admit that my giving taxes is inpart selfish as I believe taxes can lead to a better society around me.
 
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I'm confused, you don't think Medicare or Medicaid dictate what treatments are covered? They tend to be the most stringent, with prior authorizations being the most onerous on your time.
If future universal coverage looks anything like Medicaid, you'll have 324 million insured people... who can't find a doctor who will accept their insurance.
 
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@sb247 If not steal, would you lie to save a life? I'm curious whether you derive your code purely from modern concepts of rights, or biblical instruction, or both.
 
A charity only model would not be anywhere near as effective as a primarily government based model. As a general rule any policy rooted on aphorisms like "People would be less fat if they ate less" or "People would give more to charity if they were taxed less" are doomed to fail. If you want evidence of this just look at abstinence-centric sexual education policies and Colorado. Birth control was made more available and affordable and unwanted pregnancies (measured in resultant abortions) went down. Better outcomes, most on both sides of the abortion minefield are happy and it cost everyone - including the taxpayer - less money overall.

Part of the problem is that people consider what the government does in these social programs to be identical to charity. This is absolutely not the case. I'm not really sure how this can be confused but the government does not simply hand out sweaters and groceries on the street to poor people the same way Goodwill, your local food pantry or church do. Charity is highly targeted. It needs to be. Private charity organizations do not have the scope or funding to implement equitable, broad programs across the entire nation minus a few exceptions like the Gates foundation.

As a case study let us examine NGOs involved with foreign aid in other countries. These NGOs always go for stronger public sector implementation because of two major reasons: 1) Scope; you can reach more people and 2) Rights; everyone has the right to a publically owned service while your rights to private services can be taken away. The issue of rights is already a problem that targeted charity can face that government welfare simply doesn't have to ( or, at least, if the issue arises in government welfare programs it is far less intractable than when it does in private charity). For example, Catholic Church provided AIDS relief is often underscored with a prohibition of condom and birth control distribution and a requirement of abstinence based prevention methods. This makes this relief far less effective unless another government or organization can provide sufficient pressure to override these conditions.

Then there is aid saturation. In exceedingly poor countries governments have no ability to coordinate a concentrated effort among the 100s of NGOs present in order to provide more effective relief. A large number of aid organizations present in one area makes it very difficult to coordinate and leads to waste, redundancy, or an over concentration of resources that threatens to leave other, equally serious issues unaddressed. Rwanda has instituted a national government plan for how to use their foreign aid resources and ever since this institution the number of NGOs in Rwanda has gone down considerably but the cost effectiveness of Foreign Aid has increased dramatically.

Let us say that we can somehow afford to institute a "national charity plan" in this country without levying any sort of tax on the people to pay for it (which means we pay for it using borrowed money). Having a third party arbitrate this plan is nonsensical as: 1) a foreign body managing the finances of the richest country in the world because no one in that country is willing to do it themselves is just out of the question and absurd and 2) no one understands the problems of a country better than the people actually running that country and most importantly 3) someone with real authority needs to be able to do this or you just risk unnecessary conflict between private and public charity sectors.

But let us go on with the hypothetical, we manage to draft up a national charity plan to use the people's freely given donations in the best way possible. The charity plan will then be subject to two major constraints: 1) the unequal and unreliable distribution of ability, effectiveness and fundraising ability of the nation's aid organizations raising the possibility of unsustainable aid programs given that resources are only available as a function of the generosity of the American public and is also therefore subject to the cycles of the economy (bad times, people less generous, etc) and 2) the mistargeting of problems.

2) is a bit complicated to let me explain. Aid organizations, especially religious ones, disproportionately target problems like food security, healthcare and shelter availability. These are fantastic things to try to improve however they, excluding healthcare, do not constitute the major expenses funded via taxation. Rather, roads, infrastructure, water supply integrity, electricity expansion and public education are also massive expenses that are important but less dire on the surface than illness and homelessness. You can go on and on about how many homeless people you fed but if you can't maintain the integrity of the water supply with regular maintenance then the majority of your population might as well be living in the slums of a third world country. Since these efforts would be entirely dependent on public charity it would simply be the case that these very important, expensive, and broad programs would go incredibly underfunded and the country would languish. It would not be sufficient to use "extra funds" from other efforts as the problem of healthcare and food security in this country are large and expensive enough to drain multiple times the coffers of whatever it is we could raise on public charity.

The other alternative is creating a national charity fund run by the government that people indiscriminately pour money into and then the main aid organizational body distributes those funds appropriately. However, then you have the same problem you have with government waste in current welfare systems. Namely, aid distribution is subject to adequate representation of a cause or community in the lrganizational body and this would lead to conflict and debate on how to best spend this money. You would essentially have precisely the same system we have currently funded with taxes just with less money overall. If anyone would like to make the argument that public charity would surpass the amount we currently collect on taxes then I kindly request they turn around before they make such a statement in order to ensure that they are speaking directly from an ass.

Then there's the issue of funding the American military enterprise which is responsible not only for American interests but countless foreign, private, public, corporate and charitable interests as well all over the world.


But what would be the upside? The American people would have more money to spend on "property" and "investment" and "capital" so we can have more goods and services that more people couldn't afford. Yay. Worth it, for sure, right?
 
A charity only model would not be anywhere near as effective as a primarily government based model. As a general rule any policy rooted on aphorisms like "People would be less fat if they ate less" or "People would give more to charity if they were taxed less" are doomed to fail. If you want evidence of this just look at abstinence-centric sexual education policies and Colorado. Birth control was made more available and affordable and unwanted pregnancies (measured in resultant abortions) went down. Better outcomes, most on both sides of the abortion minefield are happy and it cost everyone - including the taxpayer - less money overall.

Part of the problem is that people consider what the government does in these social programs to be identical to charity. This is absolutely not the case. I'm not really sure how this can be confused but the government does not simply hand out sweaters and groceries on the street to poor people the same way Goodwill, your local food pantry or church do. Charity is highly targeted. It needs to be. Private charity organizations do not have the scope or funding to implement equitable, broad programs across the entire nation minus a few exceptions like the Gates foundation.

As a case study let us examine NGOs involved with foreign aid in other countries. These NGOs always go for stronger public sector implementation because of two major reasons: 1) Scope; you can reach more people and 2) Rights; everyone has the right to a publically owned service while your rights to private services can be taken away. The issue of rights is already a problem that targeted charity can face that government welfare simply doesn't have to ( or, at least, if the issue arises in government welfare programs it is far less intractable than when it does in private charity). For example, Catholic Church provided AIDS relief is often underscored with a prohibition of condom and birth control distribution and a requirement of abstinence based prevention methods. This makes this relief far less effective unless another government or organization can provide sufficient pressure to override these conditions.

Then there is aid saturation. In exceedingly poor countries governments have no ability to coordinate a concentrated effort among the 100s of NGOs present in order to provide more effective relief. A large number of aid organizations present in one area makes it very difficult to coordinate and leads to waste, redundancy, or an over concentration of resources that threatens to leave other, equally serious issues unaddressed. Rwanda has instituted a national government plan for how to use their foreign aid resources and ever since this institution the number of NGOs in Rwanda has gone down considerably but the cost effectiveness of Foreign Aid has increased dramatically.

Let us say that we can somehow afford to institute a "national charity plan" in this country without levying any sort of tax on the people to pay for it (which means we pay for it using borrowed money). Having a third party arbitrate this plan is nonsensical as: 1) a foreign body managing the finances of the richest country in the world because no one in that country is willing to do it themselves is just out of the question and absurd and 2) no one understands the problems of a country better than the people actually running that country and most importantly 3) someone with real authority needs to be able to do this or you just risk unnecessary conflict between private and public charity sectors.

But let us go on with the hypothetical, we manage to draft up a national charity plan to use the people's freely given donations in the best way possible. The charity plan will then be subject to two major constraints: 1) the unequal and unreliable distribution of ability, effectiveness and fundraising ability of the nation's aid organizations raising the possibility of unsustainable aid programs given that resources are only available as a function of the generosity of the American public and is also therefore subject to the cycles of the economy (bad times, people less generous, etc) and 2) the mistargeting of problems.

2) is a bit complicated to let me explain. Aid organizations, especially religious ones, disproportionately target problems like food security, healthcare and shelter availability. These are fantastic things to try to improve however they, excluding healthcare, do not constitute the major expenses funded via taxation. Rather, roads, infrastructure, water supply integrity, electricity expansion and public education are also massive expenses that are important but less dire on the surface than illness and homelessness. You can go on and on about how many homeless people you fed but if you can't maintain the integrity of the water supply with regular maintenance then the majority of your population might as well be living in the slums of a third world country. Since these efforts would be entirely dependent on public charity it would simply be the case that these very important, expensive, and broad programs would go incredibly underfunded and the country would languish. It would not be sufficient to use "extra funds" from other efforts as the problem of healthcare and food security in this country are large and expensive enough to drain multiple times the coffers of whatever it is we could raise on public charity.

The other alternative is creating a national charity fund run by the government that people indiscriminately pour money into and then the main aid organizational body distributes those funds appropriately. However, then you have the same problem you have with government waste in current welfare systems. Namely, aid distribution is subject to adequate representation of a cause or community in the lrganizational body and this would lead to conflict and debate on how to best spend this money. You would essentially have precisely the same system we have currently funded with taxes just with less money overall. If anyone would like to make the argument that public charity would surpass the amount we currently collect on taxes then I kindly request they turn around before they make such a statement in order to ensure that they are speaking directly from an ass.

Then there's the issue of funding the American military enterprise which is responsible not only for American interests but countless foreign, private, public, corporate and charitable interests as well all over the world.


But what would be the upside? The American people would have more money to spend on "property" and "investment" and "capital" so we can have more goods and services that more people couldn't afford. Yay. Worth it, for sure, right?
Just want to point out that he doesn't think everything the government does would be replaced by charity (such as water maintenance or roads or school). Lots could be replaced by businesses. The only role for charity would be the benefits currently provided to people who could not pay a company for them.
 
Just want to point out that he doesn't think everything the government does would be replaced by charity (such as water maintenance or roads or school). Lots could be replaced by businesses. The only role for charity would be the benefits currently provided to people who could not pay a company for them.
Ah I see. More practical but twice as absurd.
 
Ah I see. More practical but twice as absurd.
On second thought, all that stuff like roads and school would still have to be charity for the ghettos. So your points remain valid just on a smaller scale than every part of every city.
 
Or they can give in other ways. Regardless once you pay the taxes owed, you have made your contribution to a society at a base level. Anything after that, whether it be charitable donations etc are evidence of being less selfish as well. Just because I don't give more taxes freely does not make my giving taxes freely unselfish. However, I will admit that my giving taxes is inpart selfish as I believe taxes can lead to a better society around me.
So, in all that text you strung together, are you apologizing to @sb247 for calling him selfish? That's all I want to know.
 
So, in all that text you strung together, are you apologizing to @sb247 for calling him selfish? That's all I want to know.
Really, the thing you care about most in the discussion is seeing a feelings boo boo apology?
 
So, in all that text you strung together, are you apologizing to @sb247 for calling him selfish? That's all I want to know.

So, despite all the points I make, this is the one to really draw you in? Regardless, I was being honest that paying taxes in my mind for the reasons I choose pay then (note choose to pay them) is in fact partially selfish because I benefit from it.

What other word besides selfish would you use to describe someone who would create a world in which orphans starving is acceptable or more acceptable than creating a governing body to ensure we all contribute as a society to help those less fortunate than ourselves.

So, do I apologize for calling him selfish? Kind of, but only because I let my emotions enter into my argument. I should not personally attack another person who has a different set of beliefs than my own. Do I think that the word selfish may characterize the argument and world in which he presents? Yes. But should I say it to him in the hostile way I did? No.

I actually agree with many of the points sb247 says, but in the end I cannot get behind the extremity of the argument. All he is saying is theoretical. A world with taxes can be studied and we can study different consequences of different taxation policies. To argue a world without taxes would be better is to step away from an tangible evidence and examples that do in fact exist. I cannot think of one nation or time in history that did not have taxes and yet today we have the luxury of sitting in our air conditioned homes with our computers and argue with people across the country. Surely if taxes were so detrimental, society shouldn't have been able to develop with them. But society HAS developed. Opportunities, wealth, income, resources have increased as had access to them. You could argue taxes have slowed the process, but it cannot be said critically that no taxes are a positive thing as one can present no real word evidence of a society in which I would rather live in without taxes. Theory and reality often conflict.

But yes, to sb247, I am sorry for calling you selfish. I should not name call and I am quite sure in my own ways I am just as selfish if not more so. I have moral high ground to stand on in that way. It shall not happen again.
 
What other word besides selfish would you use to describe someone who would create a world in which orphans starving is acceptable or more acceptable than creating a governing body to ensure we all contribute as a society to help those less fortunate than ourselves.

Greedy. Monster. Immoral. Horrific. Sad.

I can think of lots of words to describe thinking children starving and dying is more acceptable than taxation and social services.
 
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Greedy. Monster. Immoral. Horrific. Sad.

I can think of lots of words to describe thinking children starving and dying is more acceptable than taxation and social services.
There's plenty of people that like Kantian ethics and they would rather see such suffering than even lie or kill in defense of others! Its not a real problem so long as only a small minority subscribe to ethics like these that would be perfect in theory and ruinous in practice
 
Really, the thing you care about most in the discussion is seeing a feelings boo boo apology?
Thanks for asking. What I care about is intelligent discussion and debate. What I have seen in this thread are posts with mindless emotional attack content and/or personal aggrandizement positioning neither of which contribute to the intellectual ideas under discussion.
 
Thanks for asking. What I care about is intelligent discussion and debate. What I have seen in this thread are posts with mindless emotional attack content and/or personal aggrandizement positioning neither of which contribute to the intellectual ideas under discussion.


Check my response to you then. I agree. The way I said selfish was meant as an attack. That was wrong. However, is it characteristically untrue to his argument? I don't think so, no. However, simply calling this out adds nothing to the argument besides simply drawing attention to myself in a personal way. Calling me out personally, rather than generally asking for us all to remain impassioned and non personal meant you too have added to the emotional and irrelevant attacks.
 
Thanks for asking. What I care about is intelligent discussion and debate. What I have seen in this thread are posts with mindless emotional attack content and/or personal aggrandizement positioning neither of which contribute to the intellectual ideas under discussion.
Hmm and yet you state the apology is the only thing you care about. Intelligent discussions are hardest when people contradict themselves...
 
Hmm and yet you state the apology is the only thing you care about. Intelligent discussions are hardest when people contradict themselves...
In what post did I say that apology is the only thing I care about?
Crickets.
Because I never said that.
Btw, what seems to have gone over your head in #470 is something called sarcasm.:)
 
In what post did I say that apology is the only thing I care about?
Crickets.
Because I never said that.
Btw, what seems to have gone over your head in #470 is something called sarcasm.:)
"That's all I want to know" ?
Ah classic "I'm not actually super sensitive it was sarcasm". Then you might've missed all my responses to you have been sarcastic too :0
 
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Greedy. Monster. Immoral. Horrific. Sad.

I can think of lots of words to describe thinking children starving and dying is more acceptable than taxation and social services.

For the kids!
 
"That's all I want to know" ?
Ah classic "I'm not actually super sensitive it was sarcasm". Then you might've missed all my responses to you have been sarcastic too :0
Ho hum - all fun things must come to an end. So I hope you and @ mmgggee1 live happily ever in your circle jerk of Utopian selfless bliss, but if you'll excuse me, I'm moving on to a discussion thread with posters who wear big boy/big girl pants. Ciao.
 
So much hate emanating from this thread.
 
So much hate emanating from this thread.

Really? Other than the one personal attack that has since been apologized for, I don't see hate. Unless you consider disagreeing with somebody's viewpoints, hate. Sometimes when people disagree it gets uncomfortable.

Or if you mean that the belief that taxes are worse, morally, than letting orphans die is hateful. Plenty of that.
 
Really? Other than the one personal attack that has since been apologized for, I don't see hate. Unless you consider disagreeing with somebody's viewpoints, hate. Sometimes when people disagree it gets uncomfortable.

Or if you mean that the belief that taxes are worse, morally, than letting orphans die is hateful. Plenty of that.

Nah, its not the disagreements I'm talking about. I just think the thread has gotten a little out of hand.
 
Nah, its not the disagreements I'm talking about. I just think the thread has gotten a little out of hand.

Maybe. It hasn't even technically gotten off topic since taxation was mentioned at the start. There's an argument that it should've been in sociopolitical, not pre-allo, but no mod has moved it.

You've expressed discomfort with the path this thread has taken earlier on. Have you experienced a tumor board or M&M yet?? This is a freaking tea party in comparison.
 
Maybe. It hasn't even technically gotten off topic since taxation was mentioned at the start. There's an argument that it should've been in sociopolitical, not pre-allo, but no mod has moved it.

You've expressed discomfort with the path this thread has taken earlier on. Have you experienced a tumor board or M&M yet?? This is a freaking tea party in comparison.

No, whats a tumor board or M&M thread?
 
Ho hum - all fun things must come to an end. So I hope you and @ mmgggee1 live happily ever in your circle jerk of Utopian selfless bliss, but if you'll excuse me, I'm moving on to a discussion thread with posters who wear big boy/big girl pants. Ciao.

Hey man, I think that was really uncalled for. I apologize for calling @sb247 selfish for a variety of reasons. But I just don't understand why you would end your involvement in this way if what you really cared about was in fact rational discourse rather than passionate attacks and emotional sentiment. I think you should take some time and look at your last post because calling my point and @efle 's posts a "circle jerk of Utopian selfless bliss is not rude (I am not offended by it), but in fact childish and the very thing you stated you wished to avoid. So unfortunately I think you have contributed to exactly the type of discourse you claim to want to avoid.

Beyond that, I do not think @efle and I even agree to the extent that you think or presume we do, not to say I do not think efle has made good points, which he/she has. Go back and look at my arguments. The majority deal with points made by @sb247, who I will AGAIN say I think makes some very good points among others that I disagree with, but if you take the time to read what I have been saying I lie in between both sharp sides in this argument.

I agree with @Gandy741 that this thread has gotten out of hand as I think we all have taken what could have been a useful exercise and gotten out of hand. But what you ended with does not help bring us back to level grounds, but only serves to further muddle the discussion.
 
Hey man, I think that was really uncalled for. I apologize for calling @sb247 selfish for a variety of reasons. But I just don't understand why you would end your involvement in this way if what you really cared about was in fact rational discourse rather than passionate attacks and emotional sentiment. I think you should take some time and look at your last post because calling my point and @efle 's posts a "circle jerk of Utopian selfless bliss is not rude (I am not offended by it), but in fact childish and the very thing you stated you wished to avoid. So unfortunately I think you have contributed to exactly the type of discourse you claim to want to avoid.

Beyond that, I do not think @efle and I even agree to the extent that you think or presume we do, not to say I do not think efle has made good points, which he/she has. Go back and look at my arguments. The majority deal with points made by @sb247, who I will AGAIN say I think makes some very good points among others that I disagree with, but if you take the time to read what I have been saying I lie in between both sharp sides in this argument.

I agree with @Gandy741 that this thread has gotten out of hand as I think we all have taken what could have been a useful exercise and gotten out of hand. But what you ended with does not help bring us back to level grounds, but only serves to further muddle the discussion.

Are you talking about what I ended with>? If so, what are you talking about?
 
No, whats a tumor board or M&M thread?

I'm on my phone so I can't see if you're a student yet or not. Tumor boards and morbidity and mortality (M&M) conferences are a couple of forums- usually weekly- in which various hospital services get together and discuss management of specific patient cases. They can be quite heated- M&M more so because it involves cases where something went wrong.

Something for you to look forward to!
 
I'm on my phone so I can't see if you're a student yet or not. Tumor boards and morbidity and mortality (M&M) conferences are a couple of forums- usually weekly- in which various hospital services get together and discuss management of specific patient cases. They can be quite heated- M&M more so because it involves cases where something went wrong.

Something for you to look forward to!

See, now thats something I could probably get involved in. No I'm not a medical student yet. I'm hoping to be one somewhere next year.
 
Hey man, I think that was really uncalled for. I apologize for calling @sb247 selfish for a variety of reasons. But I just don't understand why you would end your involvement in this way if what you really cared about was in fact rational discourse rather than passionate attacks and emotional sentiment. I think you should take some time and look at your last post because calling my point and @efle 's posts a "circle jerk of Utopian selfless bliss is not rude (I am not offended by it), but in fact childish and the very thing you stated you wished to avoid. So unfortunately I think you have contributed to exactly the type of discourse you claim to want to avoid.

Beyond that, I do not think @efle and I even agree to the extent that you think or presume we do, not to say I do not think efle has made good points, which he/she has. Go back and look at my arguments. The majority deal with points made by @sb247, who I will AGAIN say I think makes some very good points among others that I disagree with, but if you take the time to read what I have been saying I lie in between both sharp sides in this argument.

I agree with @Gandy741 that this thread has gotten out of hand as I think we all have taken what could have been a useful exercise and gotten out of hand. But what you ended with does not help bring us back to level grounds, but only serves to further muddle the discussion.
Just for the record, we're cool. I enjoy a lively discussion
 
Just for the record, we're cool. I enjoy a lively discussion

Ok perfect. I felt like I personally may have gotten too emotional or caught up in the argument, so I just wanted to make sure you didn't feel like I was going at you personally, rather than arguing the points. Thanks for clarifying though as my goal is never to attach others.
 
Ho hum - all fun things must come to an end. So I hope you and @ mmgggee1 live happily ever in your circle jerk of Utopian selfless bliss, but if you'll excuse me, I'm moving on to a discussion thread with posters who wear big boy/big girl pants. Ciao.

:rolleyes:
 
Well, this is interesting: Trump saying that physicians charge too much for their services



From 2:40
 
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