Will physicians be taxed out the a** if Bernie Sanders is president?

[Lawpy]

That is the FOX NEWS talking point. I heard it from Shawn Hannity before... 'If you want to pay more taxes, send a check to the IRS' Lol...

What an immortalized thread...

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[deleted480308]

That is the FOX NEWS talking point. I heard it from Shawn Hannity before... 'If you want to pay more taxes, send a check to the IRS' Lol...

To defend taking my money you will need a better premise than "fox news also doesn't want me taking your money"...I'll wait

 

[el_duderino]

To defend taking my money you will need a better premise than "fox news also doesn't want me taking your money"...I'll wait

Because there are millions of Americans - adults, children, and elderly - who will otherwise simply have no access to health care, and/or will be subject to complete financial ruin as a result of health problems.

 

[deleted480308]

Because there are millions of Americans - adults, children, and elderly - who will otherwise simply have no access to health care, and/or will be subject to complete financial ruin as a result of health problems.

That's a premise, albeit emotional, that can be discussed. Far superior an argumeny to, "but fox said that too"

 

[el_duderino]

That's a premise, albeit emotional, that can be discussed. Far superior an argumeny to, "but fox said that too"

Can you say it's untrue?

I realize that in your philosophy it's irrelevant, but that doesn't make it false... and in my philosophy, it matters.

 

[RustBeltOnc]

I think the sooner we just cut out the insurance companies and transition to single payer, the better.
There is no scenario where the traditional, fee for service model survives (bevacizumab for everyone, woo hoo!)
Corporate America wants health care costs reigned in, with good reason, and I would rather take the pain now, as a bolus then as this tortuous path to the same place.

 

[deleted480308]

Can you say it's untrue?

I realize that in your philosophy it's irrelevant, but that doesn't make it false... and in my philosophy, it matters.

To a degree...ending forced group funding will make things cheaper as a result of market pressure and saved taxes will allow more funds for charity (along with the newly created lack of "but the government will do it" excuse for not donating).....but some of us will absolutely die sooner if we stop allowing everyone to force their neighbors to pay for them

 

[deleted480308]

I think the sooner we just cut out the insurance companies and transition to single payer, the better.
There is no scenario where the traditional, fee for service model survives (bevacizumab for everyone, woo hoo!)
Corporate America wants health care costs reigned in, with good reason, and I would rather take the pain now, as a bolus then as this tortuous path to the same place.

Corporate America shouldn't be forced to be in the equation....let companies pay people their market value and let the citizens decide how to spend it

 

[Seth Joo]

I'm not going to medical school for the money, and I like 90% of what Bernie Sanders stands for. However, he has historically been for a very high tax rate for the top income earners. Like most med students, I'm dropping at least 200 k for the pleasure of a medical education. How are we going to pay that back if we have a massive tax hike for the "rich"? Do these tax rates account for the fact that you have 200 k in loans accumulating at 6.8%?

Bernie Sanders?? LOL. He ain't going to be President. More like Trump, the Left had its turn in the White House for 8 years with Obama and look how that has turned out, we still got war in the Middle East, terrorism has gotten worse, instead of Al Qaeda, we got ISIS which makes Al Qaeda look like a bunch of Church ladies, we got race riots in Ferguson and Baltimore. Race relations in this country are sinking to an all time low. There is no way in Hell Sanders could become President, he is even lower in the polls than Clinton, and Clinton faces a very uphill struggle to win because of her own issues.

Trump is killing all the Republicans and he will mop the floor with Hilary because he actually cares about the issues that makes so many voters angry. Trump says things that either party is too cowardly to say, he is anti establishment and that is why he is so popular, his popularity reminds me of Obama 7 years ago, and he is going to go to the White House.

 

[RustBeltOnc]

Corporate America shouldn't be forced to be in the equation....let companies pay people their market value and let the citizens decide how to spend it

I agree with this logic from a philosophical stand point. But our culture won't permit it - people expect/demand employer-paid or government-paid healthcare; corporate America is in this whether you like it or not. They aren't happy about "bevacizumab for everyone."

 

[allantois]

To defend taking my money you will need a better premise than "fox news also doesn't want me taking your money"...I'll wait

You are receiving your money as a result of government letting free market healthcare in this country in the first place. In fact, the US is the only developed country which does not have publicly funded healthcare, where you would be a government employee working for a public hospital. However "smart" you think you are, healthcare services do not contribute to the growth of the economy. And under your proposed idea of anarchic society, economic forces will most certainly not keep the current levels of reimbursement to physicians because people working for pennies a day, as valued by "market forces", will never be able to pay thousands of dollars for medical procedures. Unless you think you are the smartest and nicest of them all, of which the later I have strong reservations about, I doubt that you will be able to only attract the wealthiest clientele to your practice.

 

[allantois]

Bernie Sanders?? LOL. He ain't going to be President. More like Trump, the Left had its turn in the White House for 8 years with Obama and look how that has turned out, we still got war in the Middle East, terrorism has gotten worse, instead of Al Qaeda, we got ISIS which makes Al Qaeda look like a bunch of Church ladies, we got race riots in Ferguson and Baltimore. Race relations in this country are sinking to an all time low. There is no way in Hell Sanders could become President, he is even lower in the polls than Clinton, and Clinton faces a very uphill struggle to win because of her own issues.

Trump is killing all the Republicans and he will mop the floor with Hilary because he actually cares about the issues that makes so many voters angry. Trump says things that either party is too cowardly to say, he is anti establishment and that is why he is so popular, his popularity reminds me of Obama 7 years ago, and he is going to go to the White House.

I don't know what world you live in, Trump is offensive to all except the most extreme right. He will take down the GOP ship along with himself on it.

 

[RustBeltOnc]

You are receiving your money as a result of government letting free market healthcare in this country in the first place. In fact, the US is the only developed country which does not have publicly funded healthcare, where you would be a government employee working for a public hospital.

This is a good point. And Corporate America doesn't want to foot the bill anymore, so let's just get this Single Payer Party started. Feel the Bern.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

You are receiving your money as a result of government letting free market healthcare in this country in the first place. In fact, the US is the only developed country which does not have publicly funded healthcare, where you would be a government employee working for a public hospital. However "smart" you think you are, healthcare services do not contribute to the growth of the economy. And under your proposed idea of anarchic society, economic forces will most certainly not keep the current levels of reimbursement to physicians because people working for pennies a day, as valued by "market forces", will never be able to pay thousands of dollars for medical procedures. Unless you think you are the smartest and nicest of them all, of which the later I have strong reservations about, I doubt that you will be able to only attract the wealthiest clientele to your practice.

Obviously there are some branches of medicine that don't work well in the completely free market - super subspecialists mainly.

However, there are plenty of areas that can do well in the free market - even expensive ones.

Take infertility. Most of the country doesn't require insurance to cover it, so it doesn't. Those doctors are still in business.

Primary care is doing a find job starting to go to free market - check out direct primary care.

Surgery is to an extent, google the Oklahoma Surgery Center

Healthcare doesn't have to be as expensive as it is. Keep in mind that your doctor bills are subsidizing a literal army of non-clinical health care workers and administrators. And let's not get started on insurance companies.

 

[deleted480308]

You are receiving your money as a result of government letting free market healthcare in this country in the first place. In fact, the US is the only developed country which does not have publicly funded healthcare, where you would be a government employee working for a public hospital. However "smart" you think you are, healthcare services do not contribute to the growth of the economy. And under your proposed idea of anarchic society, economic forces will most certainly not keep the current levels of reimbursement to physicians because people working for pennies a day, as valued by "market forces", will never be able to pay thousands of dollars for medical procedures. Unless you think you are the smartest and nicest of them all, of which the later I have strong reservations about, I doubt that you will be able to only attract the wealthiest clientele to your practice.

I absolutely agree that free market would reduce compensation for a lot of doctors... i'm fine with that because market value is all we should make

 

[allantois]

Obviously there are some branches of medicine that don't work well in the completely free market - super subspecialists mainly.

However, there are plenty of areas that can do well in the free market - even expensive ones.
Take infertility. Most of the country doesn't require insurance to cover it, so it doesn't. Those doctors are still in business.
Primary care is doing a find job starting to go to free market - check out direct primary care.
Surgery is to an extent, google the Oklahoma Surgery Center
Healthcare doesn't have to be as expensive as it is. Keep in mind that your doctor bills are subsidizing a literal army of non-clinical health care workers and administrators. And let's not get started on insurance companies.

Yes, so physicians who are doing great now (infertility, concierge primary care, plastic surgery, dentists ) will continue doing great under any system.

But abolishing medicare as proposed by sb247 (whom I respect very much for his consistency in ideology), will absolutely hurt the incomes of vast majority of specialists.

 

[RustBeltOnc]

Yes, so physicians who are doing great now (infertility, concierge primary care, plastic surgery, dentists ) will continue doing great under any system. But abolishing medicare as proposed by sb247 (whom I respect very much for his consistency in ideology), will absolutely hurt the incomes of vast majority of specialists.

Let's abolish medicare and replace it with a more comprehensive single payer system, see what happens. I am good either way. But this purgatory thing is torture.

 

[deleted480308]

Let's abolish medicare and replace it with a more comprehensive single payer system, see what happens. I am good either way. But this purgatory thing is torture.

Yeah, screw freedom and autonomy....you probably know better how to spend my money than I do

 

[efle]

Yeah, screw freedom and autonomy....you probably know better how to spend my money than I do

Based on things you've said about preferring seeing a child starve to death rather than take money to buy food for them, he probably does have a better idea of what makes for appropriate taxation

 

[deleted480308]

Based on things you've said about preferring seeing a child starve to death rather than take money to buy food for them, he probably does have a better idea of what makes for appropriate taxation

Enjoy playing God with everyone's stuff...the arrogance of people really amazes me

 

[efle]

Enjoy playing God with everyone's stuff...the arrogance of people really amazes me

On the contrary, to place one's right to their property above the lives and well being of others is the far more narcissistic ideology

 

[RustBeltOnc]

sb247 -- I feel you, I also have an "inner Ayn Rand."

But when you get on the other side, you will see the "freedom and autonomy" party ended long ago -- one could make the argument medicare itself is the culprit. Our culture has the expectation that health care expenditures are "someone else's problem" and nothing you say or do will change this. And big business doesn't want to deal with this, either, and has told to the payers to clamp down on the big ticket sub specialists (me).

This has produced a scenario where the commercial payers try to micromanage everything I do, and I have multiple patients who refuse treatment because of high deductibles, etc. It would be so much easier if we just accepted the inevitable and sent "Fee For Service" to the palliative care clinic and a embraced single payer, rational rationing model.

Feel the Bern!

 

[deleted480308]

On the contrary, to place one's right to their property above the lives and well being of others is the far more narcissistic ideology

I'm getting tired of pointing out BS lately. You quite literally think you have not only better knowledge but actual moral imperative to declare yourself the arbiter of how everyone's posessions should be allocated. That is ridiculous narcisism.

I only want to determine the outcome of my property, you think all property is yours to distribute at will. You don't get to call me narcissistic with a straight face...

 

[deleted480308]

sb247 -- I feel you, I also have an "inner Ayn Rand."

But when you get on the other side, you will see the "freedom and autonomy" party ended long ago -- one could make the argument medicare itself is the culprit. Our culture has the expectation that health care expenditures are "someone else's problem" and nothing you say or do will change this. And big business doesn't want to deal with this, either, and has told to the payers to clamp down on the big ticket sub specialists (me).

This has produced a scenario where the commercial payers try to micromanage everything I do, and I have multiple patients who refuse treatment because of high deductibles, etc. It would be so much easier if we just accepted the inevitable and sent "Fee For Service" to the palliative care clinic and a embraced single payer, rational rationing model.

Feel the Bern!

I agree with your assesment of society's childish dependency....I'm just not ready to give of the ghost just yet

 

[efle]

sb247 -- I feel you, I also have an "inner Ayn Rand."

But when you get on the other side, you will see the "freedom and autonomy" party ended long ago -- one could make the argument medicare itself is the culprit. Our culture has the expectation that health care expenditures are "someone else's problem" and nothing you say or do will change this. And big business doesn't want to deal with this, either, and has told to the payers to clamp down on the big ticket sub specialists (me).

This has produced a scenario where the commercial payers try to micromanage everything I do, and I have multiple patients who refuse treatment because of high deductibles, etc. It would be so much easier if we just accepted the inevitable and sent "Fee For Service" to the palliative care clinic and a embraced single payer, rational rationing model.

Feel the Bern!

Fee for service / physician payment method isnt the same as single payer / insurance method though. You could have a single payer system with FFS, HMO capitation, salary, etc

 

[efle]

I'm getting tired of pointing out BS lately. You quite literally think you have not only better knowledge but actual moral imperative to declare yourself the arbiter of how everyone's posessions should be allocated. That is ridiculous narcisism.

I only want to determine the outcome of my property, you think all property is yours to distribute at will. You don't get to call me narcissistic with a straight face...

It isn't narcissistic because how the wealth should be distributed is a group / majority vote decision, not my personal one. It's "I spend my money how I want" vs "we as a vast majority agree excess must in large part be directed into social care programs"

 

[RustBeltOnc]

"Fee For Service" to the palliative care clinic and embraced single payer, rational rationing model.

Feel the Bern!

Elfe, I meant -- fee for service goes to hospice, we adopt single payer, capitation model. But we need to be honest about it. Not this sneaky, passive aggressive high-deductible business.

 

[deleted480308]

It isn't narcissistic because how the wealth should be distributed is a group / majority vote decision, not my personal one. It's "I spend my money how I want" vs "we as a vast majority agree excess must in large part be directed into social care programs"

You robbing me with a group of friends doesn't make you any less a thief

 

[md-2020]

If Donald Trump becomes president I will pick up my life and move to Iran. #Carson2016

 

[efle]

You robbing me with a group of friends doesn't make you any less a thief

On that we agree. Its that the group understands being a thief here is morally right, just like it is sometimes right to lie or to kill. If everyone chose to be charitable so the needy were cared for, the group would no longer have just grounds, but people are dinguses and so the dollars to care for them must be taken.

 

[W19]

Lets abolish our taxation system and let everyone keeps what they earn to see how this will turn out... Some people are just living in the fantasy land!

 

[efle]

Lets abolish our taxation system and let everyone keeps what they earn to see how this will turn out... Some people are just living in the fantasy land!

To be fair sb walks the walk and is a very charitable individual, he just has insane expectations that the 0.1% would follow suit if they got to keep all their income

 

[deleted480308]

On that we agree. Its that the group understands being a thief here is morally right, just like it is sometimes right to lie or to kill. If everyone chose to be charitable so the needy were cared for, the group would no longer have just grounds, but people are dinguses and so the dollars to care for them must be taken.

Killing is only ok to stop a violation rights. theft to assuage your charitable impulses is creating a violation of rights instead of stopping one

 

[allantois]

Lets abolish our taxation system and let everyone keeps what they earn to see how this will turn out... Some people are just living in the fantasy land!

We will be nuked by Putin the same minute that happens.

Honestly, the only way I can imagine the libertarian utopia is through the Walking Dead.

How can you even have private property in a country with no government?

 

[W19]

To be fair sb walks the walk and is a very charitable individual, he just has insane expectations that the 0.1% would follow suit if they got to keep all their income

I just think he is living in another planet... Things will never be black and white. There will always be a gray area..

 

[deleted480308]

To be fair sb walks the walk and is a very charitable individual, he just has insane expectations that the 0.1% would follow suit if they got to keep all their income

I think some would and some wouldn't but none of that is my right to overrule.

If warren buffet wants to roast marshmallows over a pile of burning money each night, it's his call

 

[deleted480308]

We will be nuked by Putin the same minute that happens.

Honestly, the only way I can imagine the libertarian utopia is through the Walking Dead.

How can you even have private property in a country with no government?

Strawman.......i never said no government

 

[efle]

Killing is only ok to stop a violation rights. theft to assuage your charitable impulses is creating a violation of rights instead of stopping one

Again, the theft is not for the narcissistic sake of feeling good, its to protect the rights to life and happiness of fellow man. It all comes down to our differing axiology where I view the ultimate good to be as many people as possible living happy and healthy lives, and you view ultimate good to be protection from (only) positive/active violation of rights.

 

[allantois]

Strawman.......i never said no government

So, the government existing on donations of the rich?

Oh, wait a second, that's exactly what we have today

 

[efle]

So, the government existing on donations of the rich?

Oh, wait a second, that's exactly what we have today

Donations are only donations when freely given! That's his argument, that we should remove taxes and the rich will now choose to give. The fact that they get to choose >> any consequences from them choosing not to.

 

[deleted480308]

So, the government existing on donations of the rich?

Oh, wait a second, that's exactly what we have today

Are you under the impression we always had an income tax?

 

[W19]

We will have a fair society when everyone has the same opportunity when they are born... This will NEVER happen!

 

[efle]

Are you under the impression we always had an income tax?

Are you under the impression that social expenses or QoL back then were anything like today? Or that the morals championed in history are a good reference for how we should behave now?

 

[efle]

We will have a fair society when everyone has the same opportunity when they are born... This will NEVER happen!

Impossibility of making it all the way to perfect shouldn't give us an excuse not to take steps in that direction!

 

[W19]

.

 

[deleted480308]

Are you under the impression that social expenses or QoL back then were anything like today? Or that the morals championed in history are a good reference for how we should behave now?

Is social expense another term for welfare state? (Not being sarcastic)

 

[el_duderino]

To a degree...ending forced group funding will make things cheaper as a result of market pressure and saved taxes will allow more funds for charity (along with the newly created lack of "but the government will do it" excuse for not donating).....but some of us will absolutely die sooner if we stop allowing everyone to force their neighbors to pay for them

There's that charity thig again.

There are millions of uninsured Americans, and the solution is not charities even if you reduce costs.

I don't accept a system letting so many of my fellow citizens not get health care. Period.

 

[W19]

We have been a welfare state since the inception of this country... It's all a matter of proportion now!

 

[allantois]

Quite frankly, I think that throwing your neighbor under the bus is neither a human nor American thing to do. Taking healthcare away from millions of seniors is completely un-American for all, but complete cowards.

 

[deleted480308]

Quite frankly, I think that throwing your neighbor under the bus is neither a human nor American thing to do. Taking healthcare away from millions of seniors is completely un-American for all, but complete cowards.

Stealing 30% of someone's income because you feel bad for someone else is not honorable...you must personally fund your charitable impulses