Will physicians be taxed out the a** if Bernie Sanders is president?

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Isn't this point already pretty much taken care of with Obamacare? Or are we just being theoretical?
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sb247 said:
Stealing 30% of someone's income because you feel bad for someone else is not honorable...you must personally fund your charitable impulses
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It doesn't really concern me what you think is or is not honorable. Your personal opinion of "honor" is no basis for law. Making sure that the all the citizens have basic services (such as police and fire protection, food to give their children, a home to sleep in, and access to health care), however, is a basis for law.

I find it abhorrent that you would gladly accept a system that lets you keep your money while millions across the country suffer and die from treatable diseases. I don't accept such a system, and will gladly vote to force you and everyone else to pay taxes, your "honor" be damned.
 
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jonnythan said:
Your personal opinion of "honor" is no basis for law. Making sure that the all the citizens have basic services (such as police and fire protection, food to give their children, a home to sleep in, and access to health care), however, is a basis for law.
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But isn't the idea we should all have these services also an opinion? And isn't your idea of what is/isn't a basis for law also an opinion?

jonnythan said:
I find it abhorrent that you would gladly accept a system that lets you keep your money while millions across the country suffer and die from treatable diseases. I don't accept such a system, and will gladly vote to force you and everyone else to pay taxes, your "honor" be damned.
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And he finds that situation abhorrent because it would infringe on certain freedoms he believes to be his own.

I mean....I don't see this going anywhere guys. Make whatever decisions you want when you are in political power and we will all follow them.
 
StudyLater said:
But isn't the idea we should all have these services also an opinion? And isn't your idea of what is/isn't a basis for law also an opinion?

And he finds that situation abhorrent because it would infringe on certain freedoms he believes to be his own.

I mean....I don't see this going anywhere guys. Make whatever decisions you want when you are in political power and we will all follow them.
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Yes, they're both opinions. I find one disgustingly selfish and abhorrent, and it is my expectation that it will lose out in the end. The US will eventually go to a single-payer system the way virtually every other wealthy country in the world has gone, to rather good effect.
 
It's a difference in culture, really. Some people just simply don't feel they are obligated to help others. And that's unfalsifiable, unless you create the obligation out of thin air via laws.
 
StudyLater said:
But isn't the idea we should all have these services also an opinion? And isn't your idea of what is/isn't a basis for law also an opinion?



And he finds that situation abhorrent because it would infringe on certain freedoms he believes to be his own.

I mean....I don't see this going anywhere guys. Make whatever decisions you want when you are in political power and we will all follow them.
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Yeah, and "it should be illegal to torture toddlers for fun" is also an opinion
 
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jonnythan said:
Yes, they're both opinions. I find one disgustingly selfish and abhorrent, and it is my expectation that it will lose out in the end. The US will eventually go to a single-payer system the way virtually every other wealthy country in the world has gone, to rather good effect.
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Ironically, single payer / capitation might actually be good for concierge medicine -- if people to don't have copays, deductibles they might be more willing to go out of pocket for access. Problem is when they need a specialist -- will still need the system and will be expecting a level of service that won't exist anymore.
 
efle said:
Yeah, and "it should be illegal to torture toddlers for fun" is also an opinion
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I'm trying to highlight the difference between natural laws and abstract ideas.
 
StudyLater said:
It's a difference in culture, really. Some people just simply don't feel they are obligated to help others. And that's unfalsifiable, unless you create the obligation out of thin air via laws.
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sb appears to think he's morally obligated to help others, but that he shouldn't be forced to do so. Unfortunately, without everyone being forced to help others through taxes, very few people would get the help they need. That's a simple reality.
 
StudyLater said:
I'm trying to highlight the difference between natural laws and abstract ideas.
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And I'm highlighting that there is no such distinction to be made. Laws are all arbitrarily constructed to approximate a shared value ethics.
 
elfe ---

The specialists exist. Concierge specialists don't.
 
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jonnythan said:
sb appears to think he's morally obligated to help others, but that he shouldn't be forced to do so. Unfortunately, without everyone being forced to help others through taxes, very few people would get the help they need. That's a simple reality.
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Have we tried? Experimenting with this could be really helpful.

efle said:
And I'm highlighting that there is no such distinction to be made. Laws are all arbitrarily constructed to approximate a shared value ethics.
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Ethics are constructed by humans. Therefore, they can be altered by humans. Natural laws, however, cannot be altered by humans, yet. We're free to do as we please on the former, and not at all free from obeying the latter.
 
StudyLater said:
Have we tried? Experimenting with this could be really helpful.



Ethics are constructed by humans. Therefore, they can be altered by humans. Natural laws, however, cannot be altered by humans, yet. We're free to do as we please on the former, and not at all free from obeying the latter.
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Wait are you talking about natural laws as in laws of physics? How was that related to ethics above?
 
jonnythan said:
sb appears to think he's morally obligated to help others, but that he shouldn't be forced to do so. Unfortunately, without everyone being forced to help others through taxes, very few people would get the help they need. That's a simple reality.
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Despite our disagreements, I think we have started to understand each other
 
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efle said:
Wait are you talking about natural laws as in laws of physics? How was that related to ethics above?
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Ohh you thought I meant natural rights or something? No. Yeah I was speaking about scientifically verifiable laws of nature. The natural laws that e.g. Newton would write about.

It's not at all related, which is exactly my point. We treat ethics almost the same as we treat the laws of nature, when they are not at all the same. Many seem to consider ethics unbreakable/unchangeable, which I find odd considering we decide how to construct them and we are the ones whose choice it is to adhere to them. I'm simply saying not everyone frames their life around the same auto-hypnotic ideology. We seem to treat each other that way, though, in conversation. As if we operate under the same assumptions. That, in and of itself, though, is a major assumption which, I observe, is often incorrect.
 
jonnythan said:
Tried what? This country has never *not* had a large portion of its populace without access to health care.
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Maybe there are different methods other than taxation that could be attempted. I don't know. Someone should get creative.
 
Create some kind of a consumer culture around it. Benefit donors as they benefit others. Frame competition/hierarchy around it. Exclusivity and awards. Bring it to schools and indoctrinate children with the ideas. Create activist groups, particularly on college campuses, with regular rallies and speeches on the matter. Get it to be propagated by the news media on a near daily basis. Also bring it to hollywood for passive indoctrination of children and adults outside of schools and work.

I don't know.

Make a youtube video on it and then publicly masturbate in SD.
 
Everyone is a liberal until they start making money and realize that that money is not enough for them to feed their family because it's being taxed.

EDIT: just to be clear i'm not talking about the top 1% but regular joe shmoe coming out of college and working a 9-5 earning around 50-60k a year
 
getdown said:
Everyone is a liberal until they start making money and realize that that money is not enough for them to feed their family because it's being taxed.
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Funny, because I was very much a libertarian until I got a real job and started making actual money, at which point my beliefs began evolving. Now I'm much more in favor of social welfare programs. I always did things backwards.
 
jonnythan said:
Funny, because I was very much a libertarian until I got a real job and started making actual money, at which point my beliefs began evolving. Now I'm much more in favor of social welfare programs. I always did things backwards.
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You should be a politician. I really dig your rhetoric. It makes me feel positive about things. :D
 
@jonnythan maybe a more accurate word would be mutation? But I know evolution has that positive connotation of bigger/better/stronger. Even though mutation causes evolution....just makes you think of like....people with 3 eyes and yucky **** like that.
 
allantois said:
I shadowed a concierge neurologist. People will gladly pay a concierge fee to be seen for 30 mins rather than 5 and have the doc available to them on the phone anytime of the day. When I spoke to his patients, none of them had a concierge PCP. I guess if someone has a specific problem, they would rather have a concierge specialist rather than a PCP. He would also check on them if they say were admitted for non-neurological reasons into a hospital or just had questions about their health in general.
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They didn't have concierge PCP because the neurologist was acting as PCP.
 
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getdown said:
Everyone is a liberal until they start making money and realize that that money is not enough for them to feed their family because it's being taxed.
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Technically, a liberal is really just a libertarian...

jonnythan said:
Funny, because I was very much a libertarian until I got a real job and started making actual money, at which point my beliefs began evolving. Now I'm much more in favor of social welfare programs. I always did things backwards.
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The exact opposite happened to me. Started off as a social progressive and ended up as a libertarian based on work experience and academia. To each their own.
 
They should create some law that your total income for the year is examined, and then all you paid to student loans that year is cut off it, and then you are put into a tax bracket.

I have a feeling I'm going to be working like a slave, and living a middle-class lifestyle many years after completing my residency, and would hate to get taxed like I'm rich.
 
cryhavoc said:
They should create some law that your total income for the year is examined, and then all you paid to student loans that year is cut off it, and then you are put into a tax bracket.

I have a feeling I'm going to be working like a slave, and living a middle-class lifestyle many years after completing my residency, and would hate to get taxed like I'm rich.
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Aren't you describing deductibles?
 
So student loans should be deductible or are they already? If they are already, what is the point of this thread?
 
Lawper said:
Technically, a liberal is really just a libertarian...



The exact opposite happened to me. Started off as a social progressive and ended up as a libertarian based on work experience and academia. To each their own.
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libertarians are socially liberals and fiscally conservatives

libertarianism is so god damn sexy for smart people heading towards fat paychecks. I'll keep trying to convince myself taxes are evil too

cryhavoc said:
So student loans should be deductible or are they already? If they are already, what is the point of this thread?
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I believe only interest is deductible, not payments, unfortunately. But the real purpose of the thread is to ask if people making 200k+ are going to see their tax bracket that used to be at 35% rise higher towards the 50%+ seen in socialist countries
 
efle said:
libertarians are socially liberals and fiscally conservatives

libertarianism is so god damn sexy for smart people heading towards fat paychecks. I'll keep trying to convince myself taxes are evil too


I believe only interest is deductible, not payments, unfortunately. But the real purpose of the thread is to ask if people making 200k+ are going to see their tax bracket that used to be at 35% rise higher towards the 50%+ seen in socialist countries
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Socially liberal being that everyone should live their life to their fullest extent and enjoy their individual freedoms to do whatever they please. We can agree that social conservatism helps no one.

And i know where you're heading with the tax argument so agree to disagree. Kinda sad we are stuck in an impasse in many issues.
 
Lawper said:
Socially liberal being that everyone should live their life to their fullest extent and enjoy their individual freedoms to do whatever they please.

And i know where you're heading with the tax argument so agree to disagree. Kinda sad we are stuck in an impasse in many issues.
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Yep, as opposed to the fully conservative how dare you love someone of the same sex type of thing

And indeed it's an impasse with me willing to try and convert! But I can't seem to stop caring about seeing the needs met of the sick poor and old
 
efle said:
Yep, as opposed to the fully conservative how dare you love someone of the same sex type of thing

And indeed it's an impasse with me willing to try and convert! But I can't seem to stop caring about seeing the needs met of the sick poor and old
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Surprisingly, social conservatism was derived from the left-wing factions (anti-Stalinist left, Confederacy Democrats), so maybe libertarianism/liberalism was truly right-wing all along!

Everyone should care about the sick, the poor and elderly. The means to achieve it is what becomes the problem here.
 
Lawper said:
Surprisingly, social conservatism was derived from the left-wing factions (anti-Stalinist left, Confederacy Democrats), so maybe libertarianism/liberalism was truly right-wing all along!

Everyone should care about the sick, the poor and elderly. The means to achieve it is what becomes the problem here.
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In the end, time is a flat circle

Everyone should, many who espouse it in public/abstract don't ever follow through though, and it is abundantly clear that letting the rich keep every cent is not the means to achieve it
 
efle said:
In the end, time is a flat circle

Everyone should, many who espouse it in public/abstract don't ever follow through though, and it is abundantly clear that letting the rich keep every cent is not the means to achieve it
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But the rich went to schools and got degrees and followed the rules. Why can't they do anything they please now? :(
 
efle said:
They ****ing can, the 0.1% are not being held back from experiencing every joy money can provide access too, and they still wouldn't have issues making half as much
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Ehhh idk. That capital gains tax is pretty lame....
 
efle said:
lame as in too low maybe
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Please. All it does is f*** the true working class of America. Those who actually produce and create organizations that benefit the rest of society.
 
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efle said:
In the end, time is a flat circle

Everyone should, many who espouse it in public/abstract don't ever follow through though, and it is abundantly clear that letting the rich keep every cent is not the means to achieve it
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I miss season 1 of true detective :(
 
efle said:
And yet it never did trickle down did it
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Equality is impossible. The upper class will always be more efficient and better producers than the lower class. Nonetheless, everyone does better when the upper class thrives, and don't have to spend a significant amount of effort shaking off leaches.
 
SabaChampion said:
everyone does better when the upper class thrives, and don't have to spend a significant amount of effort shaking off leaches.
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Except they don't. See: early industrial America before the government stepped in to give children protection so they could be educated instead of working factory shifts, workers protection from dangerous conditions, etc.
 
efle said:
Except they don't. See: early industrial America before the government stepped in to give children protection so they could be educated instead of working factory shifts, workers protection from dangerous conditions, etc.
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A great time of great prosperity. A rough time, no doubt. But the working conditions would have improved naturally once the owners gained enough disposable income to improve them. Instead, thugs in Washington put their boots on the necks of businessmen trying to do something great in this world.
 
SabaChampion said:
A great time of great prosperity. A rough time, no doubt. But the working conditions would have improved naturally once the owners gained enough disposable income to improve them. Instead, thugs in Washington put their boots on the necks of businessmen trying to do something great in this world.
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Except instead of conditions improving, the business continually expanded. I'm sure you saw the end of slavery as something similar? They'd have freed their slaves I'd only they'd gotten wealthy enough to do so, before those pesky moral thugs got involved
 
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Ah yes....the Robber Baron days. That was true America.

I am also certain they would have improved once factory owners were shown the conditions that workers were subjected to.

@efle why would you take money from those that rightfully earned it? What sort of message does this send to up and coming young men and women in the working class? "Work hard so those in poverty that didn't work can steal your money?" Please explain yourself, efle.
 
efle said:
Except instead of conditions improving, the business continually expanded. I'm sure you saw the end of slavery as something similar? They'd have freed their slaves I'd only they'd gotten wealthy enough to do so, before those pesky moral thugs got involved
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Also agreed on this point. It would have become a moral imperative, eventually.

If Madam curie hadn't discovered Curium, someone else eventually would have.
 
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