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I hope that the numbers above demonstrate why dentists are not poor, and why you will be able to pay back your loans and live a good live eventually so long as the dental industry doesn’t change for the worse and schools don’t become 100% more expensive in the next five years or so.
@Ferneezy, Yeah, I italicized and quoted the word 'slave' to reflect the fact that being a slave is all a matter of perspective. Having worked a low-wage job through college, then kept it out of college during the recession, I don't view any of our options as a form of slavery but serious opportunities. Dentistry is a great field.
I wish salaries were reported as median incomes, not mean. I want to know what the median associate income is. From what I've read, that number is around $120,000, but it varies widely. Obviously if you're willing to work in high demand areas, your alray will generally increase. Major cities are overrated.
Also, there are loan repayment options. Right now, they are generally 90-110k salary plus 20-30k in repayment. This should help ease the minds a little of those who will be in the $400,000 debt range just a little. You'll still be a slave, but there are some options.
And finally, live below your means. Pay off the debt, save, and live like a poor person because that's what you are. Commit to it.
Also, about the interest rates, aren't they lower now?
The rates are now 5.41% for direct unsubsidized loans and 6.41% for grad plus loans. So a little better than previously but not muchI wish salaries were reported as median incomes, not mean. I want to know what the median associate income is. From what I've read, that number is around $120,000, but it varies widely. Obviously if you're willing to work in high demand areas, your alray will generally increase. Major cities are overrated.
Also, there are loan repayment options. Right now, they are generally 90-110k salary plus 20-30k in repayment. This should help ease the minds a little of those who will be in the $400,000 debt range just a little. You'll still be a slave, but there are some options.
And finally, live below your means. Pay off the debt, save, and live like a poor person because that's what you are. Commit to it.
Also, about the interest rates, aren't they lower now?
Out of curiosity, have any of you considered dentistry in Alaska after dental school? I've heard folklore that associates there can make 300k+ straight out of dental school because the demand is so high (even more if not an associate). Pretty much every job there pays more, like 100k/year as a middle school teacher or 300k/year as a pharmacist (these were offers family & friends considered). Most people aren't willing to do that though. If you're looking for ways to pay debt, this might be one way to sacrifice for a few years and get it all wiped out.
I'm doing the military route, so doesn't apply to me right now unless I want a comfortable nest egg after the military. Given that I'll be 30 years old by that point, I might want to just settle though.
Can't live solely from ice-fishing..
Your dad... sounds amazing!Ha, my dad would argue with you on that one for sure. He just made tea out of pine needles and recently learned how to leech the acid out of acorns to safely make them into flour... and had me get him a "Lard" cookbook for Christmas haha. If he didn't have his family here, he'd move up to Alaska in a heartbeat and fish + hunt and probably be a mountain man to survive
Alaska is actually not bad. haha. I have some family in Fairbanks and it is pretty thereOut of curiosity, have any of you considered dentistry in Alaska after dental school? I've heard folklore that associates there can make 300k+ straight out of dental school because the demand is so high (even more if not an associate). Pretty much every job there pays more, like 100k/year as a middle school teacher or 300k/year as a pharmacist (these were offers family & friends considered). Most people aren't willing to do that though. If you're looking for ways to pay debt, this might be one way to sacrifice for a few years and get it all wiped out.
I'm doing the military route, so doesn't apply to me right now unless I want a comfortable nest egg after the military. Given that I'll be 30 years old by that point, I might want to just settle though.
There is also the potential that a spouse's income can really help, but that variable is hard to account for. I know that for me personally, it will help immensely.
I am convinced that this is still a very lucrative career for people who have a bit of common sense. Furthermore, dentists don't work terribly long hours (unless they want to), and the field isn't as high stress as other medical fields. I can't complain.
Yea, $900 will get you 1,000 sqft 2bed/2bath where I'm from, but I have the same idea.Did you forget to include purchasing a home, which most people see as something that's "required"? The math gets a little hairy when you have fresh grads thinking they're now rich doctors and they want the 500-700k McMansion in the suburbs. Show me my 900/month 1 bedroom apartment.
Yea, $900 will get you 1,000 sqft 2bed/2bath where I'm from, but I have the same idea.
Wut...a 400sqft box here.
Wut...
There is also the potential that a spouse's income can really help, but that variable is hard to account for. I know that for me personally, it will help immensely.
I am convinced that this is still a very lucrative career for people who have a bit of common sense. Furthermore, dentists don't work terribly long hours (unless they want to), and the field isn't as high stress as other medical fields. I can't complain.
oh you fancy huh? nota 400sqft box here.
Just out of curiosity, what was your opinion on deciding on GPR over the other specialty programs through the military?I actually tend to hear the opposite about the military regarding hand skills getting up to speed. One of the reasons why I'm very hesitant about it. Also forgot to mention those scholarships that require you to live in a particular area.
fort polk la posted this the other day
I have worked at fort gordan and fort polk... Fort gordan is terrible because everything is referred out to specialties. Amalgam mill is all thats left and exams. I have 2 year gpr and 25 yesrs practice under my belt. I thought this avenue would be a nice way to give back since my retirement and to support our soldiers . I was terribly wrong!!!!! You young docs just graduating beware
@ Cello,
What about consolidating loans after graduation? I know one can do this with federal loans. Some consolidation agreements will give you 1% back of what you originally consolidated if you pay on time for 4 yrs. and knock off 1% of the interest on top of that, but only once. And if you pay through direct deposit, they will take an additional 0.5% off the interest. I think this might be useful to some and I will look into it.
did you account that you pay 15% of you Discretionary income or just 15% of your total income for the year? theres a big difference
Below I go over the major three paths to financial security as a dentist, and why dentistry is still a very lucrative and secure profession if you don't make a lot of mistakes (like staying home to take care of your children your first year out of dental school).
Dental School Average Tuition: ~$200,000 (according to stats recorded through 2010)
Non-Military / Non-PhD Path:
· In the hole ~$200,000 ($160,000 @ 6.8% and $40,000 @ 7.9%)
· If you pursue AEGD or GPR and are not granted a loan deferment then assume ~$40,000 income for the GPR or ~$20,000 for an AEGD [thanks doc toothache] (allowing for little or no payback of loan) and therefore your loan becomes ~$214,000 at the end of residency if you pay nothing towards it (see how quickly it adds up?).
· If you manage to secure an associate position, you can expect to make between $90,000 and $110,000 (we’ll say $100,000) from what I keep seeing on these forums. Depending on your tax bracket you will either pay $28,000 if you’re single (28%), or $25,000 if you’re married filing jointly (25%). Now, state income tax depends entirely upon where you live (some states have no state income at all). We’ll assume 8%, which is on the ‘upper’ end of the spectrum for state income. That means that if you are single, you are paying $36,000 of your total income to state and federal income tax.
This effectively leaves you with $62,000 of your income as an associate to pay back your student loans, eat, keep a roof over your head, drive a car, etc. Now, as we saw in the previous bullet point, your loan increases by roughly $14,000 if you pay nothing on it. So, that means that just to keep our loan roughly where it’s at, $14,000 of what you pay is not really going towards the principal loan amount of $200,000. So, if you pay $20,000 (leaving you with $42,000 in net earnings to live on) towards your $200,000 loan, remember that the interest eats away ~$14,000 of the amount that you paid, meaning your principal really only went down by $6,000 that first year to roughly $194,000.
Each year that you pay $20,000 however will have a bigger impact because the principal loan is diminished and the interest on it is reduced. The second year for example your accrued interest is roughly $13,620. The following year even less, and eventually most of your hard-earned cash is going to pay for the principal amount. But, this shows why it often takes 20 years to pay back your loans! I am not accounting for the fact that you may make a full $2,500 tax reduction on your student loan interest if you earn $55,000 (single) or $110,000 (married). Also, you may make partial deductions up to $150,000. A $2,500 reduction to your taxes may not seem like a lot in the grand scheme of things, but it can make quite a difference when you extrapolate out ten or twenty years (the life of the loan).
· So, where does this leave us? Well, assuming that we pay $20,000 on our loan each year and ONLY $20,000 each year, we will take roughly 13 – 14 years to pay our loan back.
· Now, there’s some good news, with a bit of, well, mixed news. Because a dentist’s salary almost always increases during the span of the career. Now, BLS says that the average income for a general dentist is ~$141,000, but that doesn’t differentiate between associates, those working at corporate dental mills, and private dentists who own or are part owners of their practice. The ADA claims that general dentists who own part or all of their own practice make $192,680.
· Things become complicated here, because to make the leap from associate to part or full owner of a practice, you have to take out another loan... You have to be seen as a good risk to the lender before anyone will loan you the money, which means you must have good credit and likely will have had to pay down your loan significantly. I would like to say that five years out you’ll be making $150,000, but that depends entirely upon how quickly you build a patient base. The fact is, many dentists report net losses the first year running their own practice. By the fifth year, maybe they are making something between the BLS and ADA figures, we’ll say $175,000 for our purposes, but that could actually be 6, 7, or 8 years after dental school. If you do an AEGD or GPR, then associate for one or two years before buying into a practice, you are looking at a long period of time before you’re making the ‘big bucks’.
· The good news though, is that you will build equity on your practice if you own the building and/or property. Another bit of good news is that if you buy into an existing practice as a partner or take over from a retiring dentist, you won’t take as long to build a patient base. The second variable depends a bit upon good fortune as well as circumstances.
· So, now we’re seven years out of dental school we’ll say. We’ve been making our $20,000 annual student loan payments and worked the loan down to a more manageable ~$130,000 or so. Now we find ourselves making $175,000 which means we can pay more than $20,000 onto our loan. Now, we probably would have steadily increased the payback amount before this point anyway, but I’m laying out an easy and likely worst-case scenario. After taxes we are making $126,000 after federal taxes, and $112,000 after state taxes. We are now netting roughly $112,000 annually, which means we can even triple our loan repayment to $60,000 and still be earning $52,000 which is $10,000 more than we earned before. Our loan will be decimated at that repayment rate. But, we are still seven years in at this point…
Military Option:
· You start with a debt of $0 with the HPSP scholarship. Nothing to pay back except for four years of your life. Now, those four years are better than prison, but not by much if you’re used to a cushy lifestyle. You will earn a stipend during dental school of $2,157 which works out to $25,884 annually. So, not only are we not in the hole, but we have income DURING dental school to keep us from taking out loans for cost of living. Furthermore, most of your school fees are paid for.
· When you finish dental school, you payback your commitment for four years (still less than the seven years of less than desirable circumstances mentioned in the non-military option) and may be sent to such wonderful locations as… the desert. You will sleep on cots, learn how to be a leader (or so they say), and earn some decent benefits. You get roughly $75,000 averaged over the four years for captain’s pay. An additional $10,000 for dental officer pay brings us to $85,000 which is almost the lower end of an associate dentist’s salary. When you are in a combat zone your salary is tax-free and you get some (relatively small) combat bonus pay. You get BHA, and some retention bonuses (though these may increase your commitment to the military, so we will ignore them for now).
· Lots of dentists say that you will pretty much suck straight out of dental school because you have to develop speed and learn many things that can’t be taught in 4 years of DS on your own and with CE. So, many dentists seem to think that the military gives you a great opportunity to develop your skills as a dentist much like an associate would, or someone working at a dental mill would. Some people do their AEGD or GPR residency in the military which adds one year to their total commitment. I believe that this is paid for.
· All of that said, you have to decide if you’d rather be a corporate slave, a government slave, or another dentist’s slave and how long you can handle any of those scenarios. The military is four years, while corporate / associateships seem to average two. Straight out of the military (four or five years) you have $0 debt and are in a great position to purchase a practice. With the other two paths you still likely have significant debt at the end of seven years (unless you’re really good with finances AND willing to live cheaply) but are beginning to make some serious dough.
PhD Option:
· This is a great option if you want to work in academic dentistry. You have a commitment to your institution to get the free DS tuition, much like the military, but without the desert and roadside bombs. Many DDS/PhD and DMD/PhD programs offer a stipend of roughly $20,000 which is similar to the amount given by the military. If you’re really into research, can buckle down, and are lucky enough, you MAY finish your PhD in three years. But, chances are you’re looking at four or five which is also similar to the military.
· You come out of a DDS/PhD program with $0 in debt just like the military. You owe nothing to the government (except taxes), but you do owe the institution which paid your tuition. You will be in a great financial position to purchase a practice when you finish your DDS/PhD (if that’s really your intention with such a degree), but you have one big problem.
All of the time you spent at the lab bench earning your PhD though is time that you were not becoming a better dentist. So, while this option has roughly the same financial perks that the military does with the added incentive of having a PhD and being able to work in research or academics, you will not be as practiced at the art of dentistry as someone who went the military route. This is why it is absolutely essential that you decide whether you want to practice academic dentistry or dental research before pursing a DDS/PhD or DMD/PhD program.
In the end you have three options which are as follows:
1. Become a 'slave' to a lender and ultimately a 'slave' to a dental mill or older dentist for two years before buying into a practice.
2. Become a 'slave' to the US government for four years before buying into a practice.
3. Become a 'slave' to an academic institution for four years before getting an academic job or buying into a practice.
Unless you are independently wealthy or have rich parents, you will probably be someone’s slave for half a decade or more. Each option has some serious advantages and disadvantages to think about. The thing about slavery though, is that today’s version is much better than anything in centuries gone by. So, if I have to sacrifice five years of my life to be financially secure, I think it’s very worth it.
Two things before ending this post.
1. If you can poke holes in the info I’ve given above, please do so and let me know so that I can fix it.
2. I hope that the numbers above demonstrate why dentists are not poor, and why you will be able to pay back your loans and live a good live eventually so long as the dental industry doesn’t change for the worse and schools don’t become 100% more expensive in the next five years or so.
Errr!!!The only thing I take issue with your post is you are grossly exaggerating the Military (HPSP) scholarship. While I am not a recipient of a HPSP scholarship I am a Marine Corps veteran and have dealt with Navy Dental/Medical for 4 years and the lifestyle you portray is wrong. If anything medical professionals in the military have the cushiest lifestyle of them all. Not once have I seen a medical officer in a cot or in the desert more than likely they are at an air base or Landstuhl in Germany in an air-conditioned room eating the beat meals available and are far away from any combat scenario. This is why we have corpsman! No one thinking about the military should even worry about lifestyle or combat the only thing they should worry about is the culture shock because we do things differently than civilians do. With that said everything else was on the money, besides $0 debt is hard to beat for 4 years of basically doing nothing.
Very nice summary. Specifically, your comments on the military option very much summed up my understanding of the HPSP program. One thing I would like to add is that if you do HPSP, you don't have to be in the "top" of the class in order to specialize, meaning there is a little more breathing room if you are considering about specializing (besides AEGD or GPR).
The only thing I take issue with your post is you are grossly exaggerating the Military (HPSP) scholarship. While I am not a recipient of a HPSP scholarship I am a Marine Corps veteran and have dealt with Navy Dental/Medical for 4 years and the lifestyle you portray is wrong. If anything medical professionals in the military have the cushiest lifestyle of them all. Not once have I seen a medical officer in a cot or in the desert more than likely they are at an air base or Landstuhl in Germany in an air-conditioned room eating the beat meals available and are far away from any combat scenario. This is why we have corpsman! No one thinking about the military should even worry about lifestyle or combat the only thing they should worry about is the culture shock because we do things differently than civilians do. With that said everything else was on the money, besides $0 debt is hard to beat for 4 years of basically doing nothing.
It's actually 8 years of service in the military...Below I go over the major three paths to financial security as a dentist, and why dentistry is still a very lucrative and secure profession if you don't make a lot of mistakes (like staying home to take care of your children your first year out of dental school).
Dental School Average Tuition: ~$200,000 (according to stats recorded through 2010)
Non-Military / Non-PhD Path:
· In the hole ~$200,000 ($160,000 @ 6.8% and $40,000 @ 7.9%)
· If you pursue AEGD or GPR and are not granted a loan deferment then assume ~$40,000 income for the GPR or ~$20,000 for an AEGD [thanks doc toothache] (allowing for little or no payback of loan) and therefore your loan becomes ~$214,000 at the end of residency if you pay nothing towards it (see how quickly it adds up?).
· If you manage to secure an associate position, you can expect to make between $90,000 and $110,000 (we’ll say $100,000) from what I keep seeing on these forums. Depending on your tax bracket you will either pay $28,000 if you’re single (28%), or $25,000 if you’re married filing jointly (25%). Now, state income tax depends entirely upon where you live (some states have no state income at all). We’ll assume 8%, which is on the ‘upper’ end of the spectrum for state income. That means that if you are single, you are paying $36,000 of your total income to state and federal income tax.
This effectively leaves you with $62,000 of your income as an associate to pay back your student loans, eat, keep a roof over your head, drive a car, etc. Now, as we saw in the previous bullet point, your loan increases by roughly $14,000 if you pay nothing on it. So, that means that just to keep our loan roughly where it’s at, $14,000 of what you pay is not really going towards the principal loan amount of $200,000. So, if you pay $20,000 (leaving you with $42,000 in net earnings to live on) towards your $200,000 loan, remember that the interest eats away ~$14,000 of the amount that you paid, meaning your principal really only went down by $6,000 that first year to roughly $194,000.
Each year that you pay $20,000 however will have a bigger impact because the principal loan is diminished and the interest on it is reduced. The second year for example your accrued interest is roughly $13,620. The following year even less, and eventually most of your hard-earned cash is going to pay for the principal amount. But, this shows why it often takes 20 years to pay back your loans! I am not accounting for the fact that you may make a full $2,500 tax reduction on your student loan interest if you earn $55,000 (single) or $110,000 (married). Also, you may make partial deductions up to $150,000. A $2,500 reduction to your taxes may not seem like a lot in the grand scheme of things, but it can make quite a difference when you extrapolate out ten or twenty years (the life of the loan).
· So, where does this leave us? Well, assuming that we pay $20,000 on our loan each year and ONLY $20,000 each year, we will take roughly 13 – 14 years to pay our loan back.
· Now, there’s some good news, with a bit of, well, mixed news. Because a dentist’s salary almost always increases during the span of the career. Now, BLS says that the average income for a general dentist is ~$141,000, but that doesn’t differentiate between associates, those working at corporate dental mills, and private dentists who own or are part owners of their practice. The ADA claims that general dentists who own part or all of their own practice make $192,680.
· Things become complicated here, because to make the leap from associate to part or full owner of a practice, you have to take out another loan... You have to be seen as a good risk to the lender before anyone will loan you the money, which means you must have good credit and likely will have had to pay down your loan significantly. I would like to say that five years out you’ll be making $150,000, but that depends entirely upon how quickly you build a patient base. The fact is, many dentists report net losses the first year running their own practice. By the fifth year, maybe they are making something between the BLS and ADA figures, we’ll say $175,000 for our purposes, but that could actually be 6, 7, or 8 years after dental school. If you do an AEGD or GPR, then associate for one or two years before buying into a practice, you are looking at a long period of time before you’re making the ‘big bucks’.
· The good news though, is that you will build equity on your practice if you own the building and/or property. Another bit of good news is that if you buy into an existing practice as a partner or take over from a retiring dentist, you won’t take as long to build a patient base. The second variable depends a bit upon good fortune as well as circumstances.
· So, now we’re seven years out of dental school we’ll say. We’ve been making our $20,000 annual student loan payments and worked the loan down to a more manageable ~$130,000 or so. Now we find ourselves making $175,000 which means we can pay more than $20,000 onto our loan. Now, we probably would have steadily increased the payback amount before this point anyway, but I’m laying out an easy and likely worst-case scenario. After taxes we are making $126,000 after federal taxes, and $112,000 after state taxes. We are now netting roughly $112,000 annually, which means we can even triple our loan repayment to $60,000 and still be earning $52,000 which is $10,000 more than we earned before. Our loan will be decimated at that repayment rate. But, we are still seven years in at this point…
Military Option:
· You start with a debt of $0 with the HPSP scholarship. Nothing to pay back except for four years of your life. Now, those four years are better than prison, but not by much if you’re used to a cushy lifestyle. You will earn a stipend during dental school of $2,157 which works out to $25,884 annually. So, not only are we not in the hole, but we have income DURING dental school to keep us from taking out loans for cost of living. Furthermore, most of your school fees are paid for.
· When you finish dental school, you payback your commitment for four years (still less than the seven years of less than desirable circumstances mentioned in the non-military option) and may be sent to such wonderful locations as… the desert. You will sleep on cots, learn how to be a leader (or so they say), and earn some decent benefits. You get roughly $75,000 averaged over the four years for captain’s pay. An additional $10,000 for dental officer pay brings us to $85,000 which is almost the lower end of an associate dentist’s salary. When you are in a combat zone your salary is tax-free and you get some (relatively small) combat bonus pay. You get BHA, and some retention bonuses (though these may increase your commitment to the military, so we will ignore them for now).
· Lots of dentists say that you will pretty much suck straight out of dental school because you have to develop speed and learn many things that can’t be taught in 4 years of DS on your own and with CE. So, many dentists seem to think that the military gives you a great opportunity to develop your skills as a dentist much like an associate would, or someone working at a dental mill would. Some people do their AEGD or GPR residency in the military which adds one year to their total commitment. I believe that this is paid for.
· All of that said, you have to decide if you’d rather be a corporate slave, a government slave, or another dentist’s slave and how long you can handle any of those scenarios. The military is four years, while corporate / associateships seem to average two. Straight out of the military (four or five years) you have $0 debt and are in a great position to purchase a practice. With the other two paths you still likely have significant debt at the end of seven years (unless you’re really good with finances AND willing to live cheaply) but are beginning to make some serious dough.
PhD Option:
· This is a great option if you want to work in academic dentistry. You have a commitment to your institution to get the free DS tuition, much like the military, but without the desert and roadside bombs. Many DDS/PhD and DMD/PhD programs offer a stipend of roughly $20,000 which is similar to the amount given by the military. If you’re really into research, can buckle down, and are lucky enough, you MAY finish your PhD in three years. But, chances are you’re looking at four or five which is also similar to the military.
· You come out of a DDS/PhD program with $0 in debt just like the military. You owe nothing to the government (except taxes), but you do owe the institution which paid your tuition. You will be in a great financial position to purchase a practice when you finish your DDS/PhD (if that’s really your intention with such a degree), but you have one big problem.
All of the time you spent at the lab bench earning your PhD though is time that you were not becoming a better dentist. So, while this option has roughly the same financial perks that the military does with the added incentive of having a PhD and being able to work in research or academics, you will not be as practiced at the art of dentistry as someone who went the military route. This is why it is absolutely essential that you decide whether you want to practice academic dentistry or dental research before pursing a DDS/PhD or DMD/PhD program.
In the end you have three options which are as follows:
1. Become a 'slave' to a lender and ultimately a 'slave' to a dental mill or older dentist for two years before buying into a practice.
2. Become a 'slave' to the US government for four years before buying into a practice.
3. Become a 'slave' to an academic institution for four years before getting an academic job or buying into a practice.
Unless you are independently wealthy or have rich parents, you will probably be someone’s slave for half a decade or more. Each option has some serious advantages and disadvantages to think about. The thing about slavery though, is that today’s version is much better than anything in centuries gone by. So, if I have to sacrifice five years of my life to be financially secure, I think it’s very worth it.
Two things before ending this post.
1. If you can poke holes in the info I’ve given above, please do so and let me know so that I can fix it.
2. I hope that the numbers above demonstrate why dentists are not poor, and why you will be able to pay back your loans and live a good live eventually so long as the dental industry doesn’t change for the worse and schools don’t become 100% more expensive in the next five years or so.
Can't we just raise the prices on procedures to adjust for the rise of tuition.Greetings,
With tuition of DS reaching an average of 250K plus living expenses, you will be 300K in debt when you graduate. If you do residency that pays, the stipent is barely enough for you to live on leave alone trying to pay some of your debt. The quickest way to pay off the loan is to have a thriving practice and live frugally for at least 5 years. Although I have a very comfortable life now, I wish I had started to repay my loan much sooner than I did. That is why I tell people to minimize the debt as much as you can and forget about Ivy League status. The extra cost is not worth it in my opinion. DP
It's actually 8 years of service in the military...