stirring things up

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Qtip96 said:
"Minority physicians are also more likely to enter into primary care specialties, to practice in underserved areas, and to serve uninsured and Medicaid patients, regardless of the patients’ race or ethnicity. See, e.g., Keith, supra, at 1524; Moy & Bartman, supra, at 1517; Komaromy, supra, at 1308-09; Joel C. Cantor et al..."

Perhaps, we should make contracts with URMs who get admitted with known lower scores that REQUIRE them to go into primary care serving the underserved patiets.

If that were in place, then I would have ABSOLUTELY ZERO issues with admitting lower scoring applicatns.

I hope that it was not lost on you that Futurestork...claiming minority status....is seeking a lifestyle specialty....to serve herself...not the community.

My experience in medicine...since 1989 when I started medical school...is a series of encountering minority physicians who fit the "AA profle"....the last one being a non-BE anesthesiologist in my current practice.

Members don't see this ad.
 
militarymd said:
Medicine has changed enormously in the last 10 years. There was soooo little known about medicine in the 60's and 70's that the practice of medicine was not mentally taxing.....it was more of a physical and emotional challenge.

With the explosion of "evidence" from rigorous trials that have been conducted in the last 10 years and which are continuing to be conducted, the practice of medicine is becoming more and more of a "mental" challenge.

The "mental" component of the basic skill sets are becoming more and more important with the greater breath of knowledge that a physician needs to grasp.

One of my interests is ARDS....Did you know that there have been 4 studies publsihed in the NEJM alone in the last few months? All prospective..and..3 randomized multicenter trials. Just following one disease process is a mentally challenging exercise.

So with the practice of medicine becoming more and more mentally taxing, we want to lower the bar on the measureable intellectual component of the admission process with AA policies?

qtip said:
"Candidate selection, conducted exclusively or predominantly by grades and test scores, [would] create an admission system with great potential for overlooking individuals who would, in fact, make superior physicians.” American Medical Ass’n Board of Trustees Report 15..."

I disagree with the assumption that poor scorers can make superior physicians.
 
militarymd said:
Perhaps, we should make contracts with URMs who get admitted with known lower scores that REQUIRE them to go into primary care serving the underserved patiets.

If that were in place, then I would have ABSOLUTELY ZERO issues with admitting lower scoring applicatns.

I hope that it was not lost on you that Futurestork...claiming minority status....is seeking a lifestyle specialty....to serve herself...not the community.

My experience in medicine...since 1989 when I started medical school...is a series of encountering minority physicians who fit the "AA profle"....the last one being a non-BE anesthesiologist in my current practice.


Doesn't finishing residency make you BE?
 
Members don't see this ad :)
better yet why don't u just designate everyone with a certian score into a certian residency based on competitiveness so that way everyone goes into what they can handle...does that sound good??? c'mon give me break, get off ur high horse.
 
toughlife said:
Doesn't finishing residency make you BE?

Yes, but if you fail the written boards 6 times, you lose your board eligible status.
 
"Sure they accept racism in their favor"

Yeah I accept racism in my favor....like when on a rotation evaluation I was told my fund of knowledge was below average but went on the next day to miss ONLY TWO questions on that rotation's national shelf exam....yep, I accepted that racism in my favor.

And in regards to the myth that most URM being accepted on AA are middle class. From personal experience as an African American I have found that majority URM are usually the first doctors in their family. And even the ones whose immediate family is "middle class" they are usually only first generation. Lets not forget the 60s, a time when career options for minorities were LIMITED, was not that long ago.

I think everyone's opinion is made up on AA. So I agree with the other dude I am done.
 
so let him do cholies appies all day...what's the big deal???
 
medstudent99 said:
so let him do cholies appies all day...what's the big deal???

OK...let's say we do that....should this person be paid the same as everyone else?????
 
Sure that makes sense....let's make URMs who score low on the MCAT, or maybe we should make all of them (that would be even better) go into primary care fields. Then, we could make the applicants whose fathers' college roommates are on the admission com go into plastics. The MCAT only evaluates what you learned in college and your test taking ability; it should not be used to decide future career options. You all love pointing out one crazy example and using that as your foundation of why you are against AA. As an African American who interacts with lots of minority I can tell you your one isolated examples are just that rare situations. I am sure there are plenty of non BE white anesthesiologist.

In the end we all have the pass the same shelfs, same rotations, same boards. So why does it matter how a person got into med school. Obviously it shouldnt because there are BC URM doctors...guess they passed! And sure there are URMs who couldnt "hack it" I know a couple white guys at my school who could not "hack it" either...They did not graduate. And...so WHAT!

Man, I wish you guys would wear your hoods to work. Then, we would not have to waste our time interacting with each other.
 
militarymd said:
I hope that it was not lost on you that Futurestork...claiming minority status....is seeking a lifestyle specialty....to serve herself...not the community.

"claiming minority status??" Dude, what is your problem. To serve myself?

By the way, for those of you lost by this statement, I asked about Anesthesia in a previous post -the pay, and the lifestyle, etc. All important factors in choosing a career. And military continues to give me a hard time about it, continues to suggest that since I'm "claiming minority status" I should serve in primary care. He has no clue which community I will be serving.

Since you guys seem to know him better, someone please change his diaper, give him a passy, and tell him to shut the F*** up!
 
FutureStork said:
Since you guys seem to know him better, someone please change his diaper, give him a passy, and tell him to shut the F*** up!

Qtip,

See what I'm tallking about....I discuss issues....lists some observations, some facts, and opinions....

and what do the pro-AA folks do????

They insult me (I have insulted no one), and call me names (I have called no one names).....

You see the problems here?
 
FutureStork said:
"claiming minority status??" Dude, what is your problem. To serve myself?

By the way, for those of you lost by this statement, I asked about Anesthesia in a previous post -the pay, and the lifestyle, etc. All important factors in choosing a career. And military continues to give me a hard time about it, continues to suggest that since I'm "claiming minority status" I should serve in primary care. He has no clue which community I will be serving.

Since you guys seem to know him better, someone please change his diaper, give him a passy, and tell him to shut the F*** up!

oh, and btw...I thought you were done with this thread....your words.
 
militarymd said:
and what do the pro-AA folks do????
militarymd said:
1) Pro AA guy, like me, asks questions, points out some facts, hoping to see the other sides arguments....other than "diversity" is good....because I'm pointing out the "diversity" leads to decreased measurable performance

militarymd said:
If that were in place, then I would have ABSOLUTELY ZERO issues with admitting lower scoring applicatns.


Huh? :confused: Maybe this is why you don't appear sincere. Just a guess.

By the way, you don't have to call names to insult. I don't agree that you "insulted noone"
 
Members don't see this ad :)
FutureStork said:
Huh? :confused: Maybe this is why you don't appear sincere. Just a guess.

By the way, you don't have to call names to insult. I don't agree that you "insulted noone"

link my post where I openly insult someone....name calling....asking to have someone's diaper changed....etc.

I have posted some observations that may hurt the feelings of people who believe they perform at a level that they do not as measured by objective means......but that's just stating an observation....it is not an insult...

To make believe things are "equal" when they are not.....now, THAT is insulting everyone's intelligence.
 
FutureStork said:
Since you guys seem to know him better, someone please change his diaper, give him a passy, and tell him to shut the F*** up!

Show me one of my posts where I say something similar to this.
 
militarymd said:
Show me one of my posts where I say something similar to this.

You know what, seriously, your right about the names. I'm sorry about that. The diaper statement, etc- public apology for that part.

You just keep knocking me about the anesthesia career choice and that's pretty annoying, but name calling is out of my character, honestly.
 
Johan here:

My medical school roommate and best friend is black and he kicked my ass on a consistent basis in grades, scoring women and shooting hoops and common sense so I have a cursory interest in the topic at hand. And his family was poor as hell. He went to City College of NY up in harlem. Which incidentally is an impressive school even though it is in the worst frikkin neighborhood. I think at some point they had the most amount of nobel prize winners. I did a quick search and the number of black medical students matriculating in the United States is about a 1000 give or take a cuppla hundred and has declined in the last few years. The amount graduating is about the same. Now there ARE I believe 3 predominantly black medical colleges so iw ould say that there is about 300 total matriculants in those. That would leave approximately 750 black medical students in the remaining 120 or so medical schools. That’s 6 black medical students in each class. And the average class size is prolly about 140-150 I find it hard to beleve that this really low number of black matriculants would keep our friend student..ie out of medical school or any other qualified majority applicant who is motivated and is willing to go anywhere within the continental united states for medical school . Although I empathize with student ie. whole heartedly.. I would have welcomed the opportunity to go abroad to med school. I need some more indepth data but they want me to pay to get it.. So I have what I have

Looking at the average grade of all matriculants 2005

Avg cumulative gpa

black 3.36
white 3.66,
Mexican 3.47
Peurtorican 3.49
Cuban 3.58
Asian 3.64

MCAT verbal reasoning all matriculants 2005
Black 8.2
White 10.1
Peurtorican 7.6
Mexican 9.1
Cuban 9.1
Asian 9.7


Writing sample Mcat of all matriculants
Mexican and cuban P
Black O
Peurtorican N
White P
Asian Q

Just looking at the numbers above.. It looks like they are doing a pretty good job at accepting who they need to be accepting.
 
FutureStork said:
You know what, seriously, your right about the names. I'm sorry about that. The diaper statement, etc- public apology for that part.

You just keep knocking me about the anesthesia career choice and that's pretty annoying, but name calling is out of my character, honestly.

OK, fair is fair....I publicly apologize for knocking on you about picking anesthesia.

But I'm not knocking on you for picking anesthesia....You are SMART to pick anesthesia...It is a very good specialty with a lot of potential in the future with our expansion into more stuff outside of the OR.

And another thing...although you consider yourself as an URM, You DO NOT count, at least in my book, as an "AA/URM"....you're just another high achiever choosing a specialty.

But IF you were a "AA/URM", then the choice of anesthesia is kind of inconsistent with many of the reasons why we need to have "aa/urm"s....ie we need more primary care physicians who are going to serve an underserved population.
 
johankriek said:
Johan here:

My medical school roommate and best friend is black and he kicked my ass on a consistent basis in grades, scoring women and shooting hoops and common sense so I have a cursory interest in the topic at hand. And his family was poor as hell. He went to City College of NY up in harlem. Which incidentally is an impressive school even though it is in the worst frikkin neighborhood. I think at some point they had the most amount of nobel prize winners. I did a quick search and the number of black medical students matriculating in the United States is about a 1000 give or take a cuppla hundred and has declined in the last few years. The amount graduating is about the same. Now there ARE I believe 3 predominantly black medical colleges so iw ould say that there is about 300 total matriculants in those. That would leave approximately 750 black medical students in the remaining 120 or so medical schools. That’s 6 black medical students in each class. And the average class size is prolly about 140-150 I find it hard to beleve that this really low number of black matriculants would keep our friend student..ie out of medical school or any other qualified majority applicant who is motivated and is willing to go anywhere within the continental united states for medical school . Although I empathize with student ie. whole heartedly.. I would have welcomed the opportunity to go abroad to med school. I need some more indepth data but they want me to pay to get it.. So I have what I have

Looking at the average grade of all matriculants 2005

Avg cumulative gpa

black 3.36
white 3.66,
Mexican 3.47
Peurtorican 3.49
Cuban 3.58
Asian 3.64

MCAT verbal reasoning all matriculants 2005
Black 8.2
White 10.1
Peurtorican 7.6
Mexican 9.1
Cuban 9.1
Asian 9.7


Writing sample Mcat of all matriculants
Mexican and cuban P
Black O
Peurtorican N
White P
Asian Q

Just looking at the numbers above.. It looks like they are doing a pretty good job at accepting who they need to be accepting.

No one is arguing there is a plethora of qualified blacks out there (yeah, I believe in cutting through the mustard and posting comments that may be misconstrued in intent, but whatever...I know who I am and what my true position is concerning races, and I'm really not concerned of your opinion of me), just like theres a plethora of qualified whites, asians, indians, latinos, etc.

But thats not the point.

The point of contention is that AA allows people not-as-qualified as other applicants to play the nebulous trump card, taking a slot someone else deserved.

I feel the same way about outside-the-match slots for DOs.
 
i think the poor latino/black who went to crappy public schools who got the 28 on his mcat is more deserving then the privileged white guy who went to private instituations who got 30+, sorry that's just what i believe. don't forget the majority of ppl who get in are either white, asian or indian.
 
militarymd said:
Yes, but if you fail the written boards 6 times, you lose your board eligible status.


Holy smokes! Are you sure this person does not have fragile x syndrome?
 
toughlife said:
Holy smokes! Are you sure this person does not have fragile x syndrome?

Maybe, but, on the surface, looks like your average person.
 
jetproppilot said:
No one is arguing there is a plethora of qualified blacks out there (yeah, I believe in cutting through the mustard and posting comments that may be misconstrued in intent, but whatever...I know who I am and what my true position is concerning races, and I'm really not concerned of your opinion of me), just like theres a plethora of qualified whites, asians, indians, latinos, etc.

But thats not the point.

The point of contention is that AA allows people not-as-qualified as other applicants to play the nebulous trump card, taking a slot someone else deserved.

I feel the same way about outside-the-match slots for DOs.

johan here,

I presented some numbers.. I think all the numbers are consistent with good quality people entering medicine with the goal of serving the diverse public. and you mention not as qualified, nebulous trump card. Please present data on people who play the "nebulous trump card" and please present data on the number of majority applicants who were not offered a spot in a US medical school because a spot was offered to an URM and who ultimately did not pursue medicine becauase the spot was given to an URM. I dont know student ie's specifics or how many schools he or she applied to.. I woul dhave to know the complete data. thats ultimately why this debate is going on.. IF there is such a case the number is remarkably low.. probably in the single digits if at all it exists..
 
AA :thumbdown:

I'm a caribbean grad, but I would never expect special consideration... I'll let my numbers, and work ethic speak for me. We had a discussion on prematching earlier this year, and I admitted that it was an unfair practice for the same reason I'm posting now.
I also happen to be a minority, and again, expect no special treatment from anyone. In fact, if anyone gives me special treatment, be it bad or good, I consider it discrimination. Judge me on merit, not where my ancestors came from, what god I worship, or how hard I had it when I was growing up... WAHHH.
Now that I've mentioned it, doesn't AA run contrary to the "equality" idea we here in the US of A believe is so important. If you're getting special consideration for anything, then doesn't that make you unequal to your competitors?
 
FutureStork said:
You know what, seriously, your right about the names. I'm sorry about that. The diaper statement, etc- public apology for that part.

You just keep knocking me about the anesthesia career choice and that's pretty annoying, but name calling is out of my character, honestly.

I respect people that have the integrity to admit when they're wrong/make a mistake :thumbup: .
 
militarymd said:
I disagree with the assumption that poor scorers can make superior physicians.
i agree with you to some extent. it is unlikely for someone who scores poorly by objective assessments to become a superior clinician. however, beyond demonstrated competence, it becomes difficult to discriminate based on scores. for example, if the average MCAT scores at UTSouthwestern is higher than at Hopkins, i would NOT be ready to summarily deduct that Southwestern has better students(maybe they do). i don't believe that personal statements, letters of recommendation, and curricula vitae are utilized in applications strictly for AA purposes, but genuinely to help identify people beyond the numbers. i have met many people who make great grades and score highly on exams but who are poor communicators, cannot think on their feet, and have trouble assimilating new complex information.
militarymd said:
Qtip,

See what I'm tallking about....I discuss issues....lists some observations, some facts, and opinions....

and what do the pro-AA folks do????

They insult me (I have insulted no one), and call me names (I have called no one names).....

You see the problems here?
well, you DID pick an emotionally charged subject.

anyways, i am not guiltless, since i have been picking on student.ie.
for one, because he's an angry person, and two, because it's fun. ;) . what can i say, i'm weak...

there is not much more that i can add that i haven't already. and the AAMC publication i referenced is pretty self-explanatory, though i am not in complete agreement about how it is being implemented. i would disagree with jetpropilot's assertion that there is a "plethora of qualified blacks out there". the problem is that there are too few, and most data point toward a declining supply of motivated and interested URMs.

yawn... i'm gonna hit the sack. my wife thinks i'm stupid for spending time on this forum, so i'm gonna make myself scarce. good luck folks.
 
I just spent about an hour trying to read this whole thread. I enjoyed all of the arguements. I think that you all have beat both sides to death..I want to change the perspective a little.

Are the American MD medical schools missing the boat on the number of available spots in the US? (NUmbers approx below)

21,000 residency spots + DO spots
16,500 MD grads
3,500 DO grads
lots more FMG.

4-5 new..i mean BRAND new DO schools in 3 years. PCOM in GA, LECOM in Tampa, Blacksburg, VA, plus a couple of others (sorry it is late and I do not sleep at night secondary to 10 week old).

When was the last new MD school in the US. Maybe we are forcing good candidates to go to the Caribbean. I am sure more states in the Northwest would love a new medical school. I am sure that rural areas would love another medical school. Why has the AAMC not expanded?

I just think that are standards are too high? I am not saying that a 24 deserves a spot at Harvard (not the best medical school, but just an example). A 28 should be good enough. We have a shortage of doctors in this country. Maybe we should stop depending on Foreign Medical schools to fill our residency spots.

cubs suck still...I hope that the Canes dont.
 
I have tried to read most of this thread as it kind of moved in and out of civil discussion. My position is really still not nailed down on this issue. I got a public high school education in Mississippi and Tennessee, colllege at UTK, and med school at Wake Forest. The med school is decent, but the rest is mediocre at best (unless we're talking football.) Now keep in mind, I'm white, not particularly smart, and from an underprivileged (read poor, no relatives with college education) background. I graduated HS from a public school in downtown Memphis (where a white male is definitely a minority.) I really think that some people are just going to get it done no matter what obstacles you throw in front of them. And let's face it... medical school is not that hard to get into. With my background, I took no MCAT prep course, had no connections, and still got accepted to 3 med schools out of the 4 to which I applied. It's hard for me to believe that if a motivated college student (URM or not) does some minimal amount of preparation for getting into medical school, that he can't manage to get accepted into some school. The people here who are upset with their lack of acceptance to a US med school should probably take a good hard look at how much they put into making their goals happen. Also, I believe there is room for a large amount of discrimination in the med school application process. I know that all of my interviewers were lily white. Also, every place I interviewed, I talked more about the 4 years I spent as a raft guide than I did about why I wanted to be a doctor. It's a mystery to me how people end up getting accepted to med school. I know people in my class who were on the wait list who had better scores and ultimately ended up being better med students than me, but almost didn't make it into med school.

At the same time, I don't think that the way we approach AA is appropriate right now. I might offend some folks, but I'm sorry. I know that when I graduated high school some of my URM classmates did not give one iota about their grades or performance b/c they knew that they could get a job based on their race (almost all URMs are black in Memphis.) Later, in college I saw the same thing. Not as bad, but some of my classmates knew that they didn't have to perform to the same level that I did. Many of these people were much smarter than me, but they were effectively being lulled into complacency by AA policies. I outperformed them simply because I knew that at some level, I had a different standard to meet than they did.

Also, I'm 1/4 Cherokee, but I never claimed any minority status b/c I'm 3/4 white and I don't plan on working on a reservation in South Dakota once I'm finished with training.

So, I see both sides, and I'm still not convinced that one is patently right. I truly believe that any moderately motivated individual can get into a US med school. I also think that the current AA policy (as I understand it) often does nothing to motivate otherwise bright individuals to reach their potential.
 
cubs3canes said:
Are the American MD medical schools missing the boat on the number of available spots in the US? (NUmbers approx below)

[snip]

I just think that are standards are too high?


Keeping the barriers to entry into medicine high protects our salaries by keeping us in demand. More physicians trained does not lead to rural areas being better served (IMHO), it means city docs will have more competition.

Standards are NOT too high. Plenty of lazy bums, incompetents, and total idiots manage to look good enough on paper to sail past admissions.
 
NavMtnDoc said:
Also, I'm 1/4 Cherokee, but I never claimed any minority status b/c I'm 3/4 white and I don't plan on working on a reservation in South Dakota once I'm finished with training.

Dude,
You're nuts to not use your status as a Native American for education, if you have reasonable college entrance test scores, there are a number of universities that give enrolled tribal members a free education. Dartmouth comes to mind but there are others as well. This is simply a financial perspective...
 
seattledoc said:
Dude,
You're nuts to not use your status as a Native American for education, if you have reasonable college entrance test scores, there are a number of universities that give enrolled tribal members a free education. Dartmouth comes to mind but there are others as well. This is simply a financial perspective...

Lots of reasons, but mainly I look white, I was raised white, I've always been treated like I'm white (which I am). I don't really know what it's like to be a minority. I got a full ride to college, and I wanted to join the Navy for medicine for other reasons, so it wasn't really an issue. I also had the scores and skills to get in without any extra help. Now, if it would make residency applications easier...... But I'm coming out of a GMO in the Navy, so that's complicated.
 
NavMtnDoc said:
I have tried to read most of this thread as it kind of moved in and out of civil discussion. My position is really still not nailed down on this issue. I got a public high school education in Mississippi and Tennessee, colllege at UTK, and med school at Wake Forest. The med school is decent, but the rest is mediocre at best (unless we're talking football.) Now keep in mind, I'm white, not particularly smart, and from an underprivileged (read poor, no relatives with college education) background. I graduated HS from a public school in downtown Memphis (where a white male is definitely a minority.) I really think that some people are just going to get it done no matter what obstacles you throw in front of them. And let's face it... medical school is not that hard to get into. With my background, I took no MCAT prep course, had no connections, and still got accepted to 3 med schools out of the 4 to which I applied. It's hard for me to believe that if a motivated college student (URM or not) does some minimal amount of preparation for getting into medical school, that he can't manage to get accepted into some school. The people here who are upset with their lack of acceptance to a US med school should probably take a good hard look at how much they put into making their goals happen. Also, I believe there is room for a large amount of discrimination in the med school application process. I know that all of my interviewers were lily white. Also, every place I interviewed, I talked more about the 4 years I spent as a raft guide than I did about why I wanted to be a doctor. It's a mystery to me how people end up getting accepted to med school. I know people in my class who were on the wait list who had better scores and ultimately ended up being better med students than me, but almost didn't make it into med school.

At the same time, I don't think that the way we approach AA is appropriate right now. I might offend some folks, but I'm sorry. I know that when I graduated high school some of my URM classmates did not give one iota about their grades or performance b/c they knew that they could get a job based on their race (almost all URMs are black in Memphis.) Later, in college I saw the same thing. Not as bad, but some of my classmates knew that they didn't have to perform to the same level that I did. Many of these people were much smarter than me, but they were effectively being lulled into complacency by AA policies. I outperformed them simply because I knew that at some level, I had a different standard to meet than they did.

Also, I'm 1/4 Cherokee, but I never claimed any minority status b/c I'm 3/4 white and I don't plan on working on a reservation in South Dakota once I'm finished with training.

So, I see both sides, and I'm still not convinced that one is patently right. I truly believe that any moderately motivated individual can get into a US med school. I also think that the current AA policy (as I understand it) often does nothing to motivate otherwise bright individuals to reach their potential.

Uhhhhhh..............

I'm nominating this post for a Pullitzer Prize Candidate. :thumbup:

Navy Mountain, please call 867-5309 and we'll direct you to millionairre-alley...
 
FutureStork said:
"
Since you guys seem to know him better, someone please change his diaper, give him a passy, and tell him to shut the F*** up!

Sorry, FutureDork, can't do that.

Dude's smarter than me, more politically motivated than me, and is...uhhh...how do I say this....better at controlling himself than me when confronted by antagonistic posts......

SO,

I ain't gonna tell Mil to, as you posted, to "shut the ^&ck up."

I will, however, after carefully reviewing your posts, forcefully/shutting off your airway/ give you your passy, change your Depends , and tell you to SHUT THE ^&CK UP.
 
jetproppilot said:
... however, after carefully reviewing your posts... [/B]

Umm, must not have read it too carefully because I apologized to Mil for that. I would say that you are noble to jump to your friend's defense, but since you realized that I apologized for that before you sent this post, it is clear that you goal is to attempt to say something seemingly clever.

Well, you don't have enough wit to do the funny guy thing so stick being angry. You do that well. Just my 2 cents/ "token" response.

I know how you like to have the last word so I suspect I'll be hearing back from you.
 
powermd said:
Keeping the barriers to entry into medicine high protects our salaries by keeping us in demand. More physicians trained does not lead to rural areas being better served (IMHO), it means city docs will have more competition. ...
Simple econ as you've explained it. It's just supply and demand.
 
Top