Regret over DO?

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DeLaughterDO said:
No, not once.

A lot of people make a big deal out of the DO appellation, when, in my experience, the people to whom it should matter most rarely if ever even notice.

I have never once had a patient ask about the letters after my name. Never. I'm just their doctor and they are asking for help.

Of course, working in the ED, anyone who looks at me crosswise gets intubated before they have the chance to say anything :smuggrin:
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thats hilarious
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Its even funnier since only MD's are allowed to give etomidate before the sucs.
 
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Red Beard said:
On the contrary, I think this site tends to paint an overly optimistic view. Having friends who went through the match process this year, I've heard about too many cases of "we don't take DOs" to believe the "no bias" line any longer. Its still out there, especially in university programs and in community programs in highly competitive specialties.

Combine this with my diminishing belief and interest in OMM (having now done my 3rd year OMM clerkship), my ideological opposition to for-profit medical schools (which the AOA has not put forth one iota of opposition to)...I would say that if I could go back I wouldn't do it again. I would have been more geographically flexible and gone to an MD program.
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So you do 1 OMM clerkship that you don't like. Thats like 4wks out of 4yrs? As for med school tuition, I think Erie-Bradenton is cheaper than some of the m.d. schools... So your reasons do not seem very strong to me. I am more worried about not being able to match into the specialty that I want. And I am presently not sure which specialty I want.
 
stud247 said:
So you do 1 OMM clerkship that you don't like. Thats like 4wks out of 4yrs?
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When you get to medical school, you will see that it does not take long to rule out certain fields. Psychiatry was ruled-out in 2nd year, before I hit the wards. One of my best friends from undergrad knew from day one of med school that she was gonna be a psychiatrist. We did ob/gyn together as 3rd years. By the end of the rotation she was begging to take my call nights because she wanted to deliver more babies.
 
DeLaughterDO said:
No, not once.

A lot of people make a big deal out of the DO appellation, when, in my experience, the people to whom it should matter most rarely if ever even notice.

I have never once had a patient ask about the letters after my name. Never. I'm just their doctor and they are asking for help.

Of course, working in the ED, anyone who looks at me crosswise gets intubated before they have the chance to say anything :smuggrin:
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:laugh:
 
schrute said:
Path isn't as competitive as rads, gas, etc, but all path programs are not created equal; getting in might be relatively easy, but that doesn't translate into good training.
in any case, path is more competitive than primary care, and the avg board scores are considerably higher.
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I have heard that alot of the path in rosevelt hospital in NYC are DO's
 
tkim said:
It's a running gag about the how DO's get paid less, have to kowtow to MDs, etc., etc., but what makes it alright and funny is that DO students are the ones saying it. It's getting pretty old.
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What? I thought if it contained sarcasm you could say the same "joke" over and over ad infinitum and it would still be hilarious. Especially if it contained the word "ninja" or "DOs are only allowed to [insert menial pseudomedical task or Voodoo ritual].
 
Saregamapadanis said:
did they say it to the applicant's face--> "Oh you were a good applicant, you have excellent scores and grades as well as good recommendations, but our policy states that we don't take osteopathic candidates, so better luck elsewhere?" or something similar? If they did, can you please provide me the names of programs that state something like this? you can PM me if you like.


Or is this the applicant's explanation: "Oh i can't believe i didn't land that residency, it must be because of my DO degree"
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There are plenty of schools that neither let DOs rotate nor consider them for residency.
 
stud247 said:
So you do 1 OMM clerkship that you don't like. Thats like 4wks out of 4yrs? As for med school tuition, I think Erie-Bradenton is cheaper than some of the m.d. schools... So your reasons do not seem very strong to me. I am more worried about not being able to match into the specialty that I want. And I am presently not sure which specialty I want.
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Cheaper than some, but also $10-$15k more expensive than others.
 
Blesbok said:
There are plenty of schools that neither let DOs rotate nor consider them for residency.
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I do not think this is correct. A few at best will not let them rotate. Evidence please?
 
Blesbok said:
There are plenty of schools that neither let DOs rotate nor consider them for residency.
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danzman said:
I do not think this is correct. A few at best will not let them rotate. Evidence please?
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A residency example:

The hospital I rotate at has 0 DO surgical residents/fellows in any surgical program at any level, including OBGYN and in all fellowships.

That includes: general surgery, plastics, urology, ophthalmology, neurosurgery, OMF, ENT, orthopedics, OB, trauma, vascular, transplant, burn, critical care, thoracic, laparoscopic and surg-onc. 0 DOs.

Certain fields, especially allopathic surgery are harder to get as a DO.
 
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Instatewaiter said:
A residency example:

The hospital I rotate at has 0 DO surgical residents/fellows in any surgical program at any level, including OBGYN and in all fellowships.

That includes: general surgery, plastics, urology, ophthalmology, neurosurgery, OMF, ENT, orthopedics, OB, trauma, vascular, transplant, burn, critical care, thoracic, laparoscopic and surg-onc. 0 DOs.

Certain fields, especially allopathic surgery are harder to get as a DO.
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Which hospital is it?
 
Instatewaiter said:
Certain fields, especially allopathic surgery are harder to get as a DO.
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I don't really think this is even arguable. ACGME surgery specialties just see too many insane MD applicants and have too many old school PDs for things like Integrated PRS, ENT, Uro etc to be 'DO friendly.' DOs are very fortunate to have AOA residencies (minus integrated PRS, but do have PRS fellowships) in all these fields.
 
tkim said:
Which hospital is it?
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Which hospital it is is not important. You will find a few DOs in other fields in the hospital. For instance there are 4 DOs in the internal medicine department and 7 in Gas so it's not a total hospital policy.
 
Instatewaiter said:
Which hospital it is is not important. You will find a few DOs in other fields in the hospital. For instance there are 4 DOs in the internal medicine department and 7 in Gas so it's not a total hospital policy.
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Went from no DOs anywhere to now there are a few. My bet, is if you look at the hospital directory, there will be a lot more DOs. Every graduating year, 1 in ever 5 US doctors is a DO.
 
Instatewaiter said:
Which hospital it is is not important. You will find a few DOs in other fields in the hospital. For instance there are 4 DOs in the internal medicine department and 7 in Gas so it's not a total hospital policy.
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Are you afraid that the hospital is going to find out it was you and blacklist you? Oh yeah, according to you they already did because your a DO :scared:
 
Instatewaiter said:
A residency example:

The hospital I rotate at has 0 DO surgical residents/fellows in any surgical program at any level, including OBGYN and in all fellowships.

That includes: general surgery, plastics, urology, ophthalmology, neurosurgery, OMF, ENT, orthopedics, OB, trauma, vascular, transplant, burn, critical care, thoracic, laparoscopic and surg-onc. 0 DOs.

Certain fields, especially allopathic surgery are harder to get as a DO.
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ChiDO said:
Went from no DOs anywhere to now there are a few. My bet, is if you look at the hospital directory, there will be a lot more DOs. Every graduating year, 1 in ever 5 US doctors is a DO.
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You completely misread my post and then missed my point. My point was that surgery is a field that while ostensibly it isn't "closed to DOs" often it is essentially closed. I posted the medicine and the anesthesiology numbers to show that it is not a hospital wide policy.

So to recap there are 0/140+ DO residents in the surgical program, in any surgical subspecialty, in any year including fellowships.

Going through the directory with other programs since it was asked for:
4/110 are in medicine

0 in derm (big surprise there)

3/27 Emergency

7/45 n gas

1/20 in path

3/62 in peds

4/21 in PM&R not including interns which I cannot find

Psych- not listed on website

0/8 Rad onc

1/37 Rads


SteelCity said:
Are you afraid that the hospital is going to find out it was you and blacklist you? Oh yeah, according to you they already did because your a DO :scared:
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I'm not a DO.
 
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Instatewaiter said:
Overall just under 5% of residents are DOs
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Sounds about right, as DOs make up ~5-6% of all physicians. Thus, you will see places with less DOs and some with more DOs based on geography. I'm not sure why people are dissecting this issue out.
 
Instatewaiter said:
You completely misread my post and then missed my point. My point was that surgery is a field that while ostensibly it isn't "closed to DOs" often it is essentially closed. I posted the medicine and the anesthesiology numbers to show that it is not a hospital wide policy.

So to recap there are 0/140+ DO residents in the surgical program, in any surgical subspecialty, in any year including fellowships.

Going through the directory with other programs:
4/110 are in medicine

0 in derm (big surprise there)

3/27 Emergency

7/45 n gas

1/20 in path

3/62 in peds

4/21 in PM&R not including interns which I cannot find

Psych- not listed on website

0/8 Rad onc

1/37 Rads

Overall just under 5% of residents are DOs
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Your point was noted...with the rest
:beat:
 
Instatewaiter said:
A residency example:

The hospital I rotate at has 0 DO surgical residents/fellows in any surgical program at any level, including OBGYN and in all fellowships....
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Doesn't surprise me at all. The company I used to work for sent me to Richmond in the middle 90's. You couldn't pay me enough to ever go back there again. Except for the one booby bar near the VA that had breakfast specials and strip karaoke on Wednesday nights, I found nothing of value in the entire area.
 
scpod said:
Doesn't surprise me at all. The company I used to work for sent me to Richmond in the middle 90's. You couldn't pay me enough to ever go back there again. Except for the one booby bar near the VA that had breakfast specials and strip karaoke on Wednesday nights, I found nothing of value in the entire area.
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Seems like a pretty good reason to me. ;)
 
scpod said:
Doesn't surprise me at all. The company I used to work for sent me to Richmond in the middle 90's. You couldn't pay me enough to ever go back there again. Except for the one booby bar near the VA that had breakfast specials and strip karaoke on Wednesday nights, I found nothing of value in the entire area.
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Can't argue your position? Might as well try a variation to an old favorite on SDN- the ad hominem.
 
I'm getting sick and tired of seeing this thread at the top of forum (although I guess I'm not helping by posting).

Instatewaiter, 5% of the residents in that hospital are DOs because only 5% of the physician workforce are DOs. You do the math. Nevermind the fact that there are DO-only residencies (including your favorite - surgery), which means that this 5% at an allopathic institution actually represents an overrepresentation of DOs.

What's more important is the fact that if you search any top-tier institution such as Harvard, Hopkins, UCSF, Mayo, etc, you will see at least a few DO residents/attendings among their ranks. And the numbers are continuing to increase.

And to address the thread topic, I have absolutely no regrets about going DO. I landed my top-choice residency at a prestigious academic institution. Did I have to work harder to get that spot than an MD student from, say, Harvard? Sure, a little. But that makes it all the more satisfying. On top of that, I can fix a neck ache in 30 seconds, which most MDs cannot do.
 
Red Beard said:
On the contrary, I think this site tends to paint an overly optimistic view. Having friends who went through the match process this year, I've heard about too many cases of "we don't take DOs" to believe the "no bias" line any longer. Its still out there, especially in university programs and in community programs in highly competitive specialties.

Combine this with my diminishing belief and interest in OMM (having now done my 3rd year OMM clerkship), my ideological opposition to for-profit medical schools (which the AOA has not put forth one iota of opposition to)...I would say that if I could go back I wouldn't do it again. I would have been more geographically flexible and gone to an MD program.
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Can you give some examples of residency programs which have a "No DO" policy?

I've listened to, and conversed with, the incoming AOA president regarding the for-profit school issue, and your statement that they have "not put forth one iota of opposition" to it is not quite right. They were very opposed to the idea but have been basically forced to accept the school or else allow the school to obtain its accreditation from another agency. This was the choice COCA was given, and they decided on the lesser of two evils--to keep the school under their purview. Obviously, politics has played a role here. I don't like the for-profit idea either, but it's not accurate to say the AOA just shooed them in.

People need to do their due diligence prior to making a huge and expensive decision such as whether and where to attend medical school. That means, research all your options, speak to a lot of people in the real world and have a big grain of salt with anonymous chat boards like SDN that tend to be heavy on opinions and short on facts. Go to conferences, meet medical admissions people, visit med schools and talk with the students. Read AOA and AMA websites. There is a lot you can do in advance to avoid making unfortunate decisions such as this person has done.
 
Instatewaiter said:
You completely misread my post and then missed my point. My point was that surgery is a field that while ostensibly it isn't "closed to DOs" often it is essentially closed. I posted the medicine and the anesthesiology numbers to show that it is not a hospital wide policy.
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Huh? I know a lot of DOs who went into surgery. Here in the U.S., I mean. Are you talking about the same country?

I'm not a DO.
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meaning...? :confused:
 
DO + USMLE 1 and 2 = MD. We love to say how we are equal to MDs. Well if we are really equal, don't want to do OMM and can pass the same boards, have the same hours of didactic and clinical education, we should be able to legally use the title MD.
We need state by state legislation. All it will take is for one state to get the ball rolling.
One MD resident once told me. Every time I see the letters DO on a jacket its always like "hmmmm". And went on to say its always a strike against credibility that must be overcome whereas MDs don't have to do this.
I personally am sick of these damn letters that have nothing to do with how I will practice.

And yes, I probably should have been more geographically flexible and expanded my allo applications but I didn't and at the time, like many DO students I don't think I fully understood the implications.
 
ceftazidime said:
Instatewaiter, 5% of the residents in that hospital are DOs because only 5% of the physician workforce are DOs. You do the math. Nevermind the fact that there are DO-only residencies (including your favorite - surgery), which means that this 5% at an allopathic institution actually represents an overrepresentation of DOs.

What's more important is the fact that if you search any top-tier institution such as Harvard, Hopkins, UCSF, Mayo, etc, you will see at least a few DO residents/attendings among their ranks. And the numbers are continuing to increase.
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Everyone's jumping down my throat when I was just responding to Danzman's request for evidence there is a stigma and then ChiDos request for the rest of the residency positions at that hospital. Relax.

Second after I did the math I realized your math is off. As CHIDO said, currently ~20% of graduating seniors in the US are DOs. So while 5% of practicing doctors are DOs, that percentage should not be used when evaluating adequate representation in a residency because currently 20% of graduating seniors are DOs.
 
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ceftazidime said:
What's more important is the fact that if you search any top-tier institution such as Harvard, Hopkins, UCSF, Mayo, etc, you will see at least a few DO residents/attendings among their ranks. And the numbers are continuing to increase.
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So i was curious to see if this was the case and I am bored so I decided to look into it. I chose UCSF b/c they have a really easy website to look at and harvard/hopkins' websites were a pain in the ass to use:

As a disclaimer the ENT, derm, Gas websites do not list degrees.

According to the websites these are the ratio of DOs to total Residents at UCSF

Neuro- 0/43
EM- 0/25
Medicine 0/160
Neurosurg 0/14
optho- 0/15
Ortho 0/31
OB-gyn- 0/32
pathology 0/29
peds- 0/84
psych 0/64
rad-onc 0/13
rads- 0/52
Surg- 0/54
Uro- 0/18
 
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I can't believe you actually counted all those residency slots, but whatever.

I'm finding it a little disappointing you guys are ****ting over this guy's med school location in this thread. I mean, can you people get any more desperate with a manuver like that?

There some programs that will not take DO's. It may not seem fair or nice, but there it is. Most often it's the old school, well-established specialties with old, old white men who probably got into a fistfight with a DO many years ago and made a point never to take one in when they became chairman.

Many old guard think DO's are inferior. This may never change, but old white men do eventually die off and get replaced by slightly younger old white men who probably learned to hate just as much. It's okay, they probably wouldn't take the dude from State U as well.

Why you guys are even talking about this is a mystery.
 
Instatewaiter said:
So i was curious to see if this was the case and I am bored so I decided to look into it. I chose UCSF b/c they have a really easy website to look at and harvard/hopkins' websites were a pain in the ass to use:

As a disclaimer the ENT, derm, Gas websites do not list degrees.

According to the websites these are the ratio of DOs to total Residents at UCSF

Neuro- 0/43
EM- 0/25
Medicine 0/160
Neurosurg 0/14
optho- 0/15
Ortho 0/31
OB-gyn- 0/32
pathology 0/29
peds- 0/84
psych 0/64
rad-onc 0/13
rads- 0/52
Surg- 0/54
Uro- 0/18
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That's interesting. It sort of aligns with the rumors I've been hearing that DOs tend to have trouble attaining allo residencies in CA.
 
Instatewaiter said:
So i was curious to see if this was the case and I am bored so I decided to look into it. I chose UCSF b/c they have a really easy website to look at and harvard/hopkins' websites were a pain in the ass to use:

As a disclaimer the ENT, derm, Gas websites do not list degrees.

According to the websites these are the ratio of DOs to total Residents at UCSF

Neuro- 0/43
EM- 0/25
Medicine 0/160
Neurosurg 0/14
optho- 0/15
Ortho 0/31
OB-gyn- 0/32
pathology 0/29
peds- 0/84
psych 0/64
rad-onc 0/13
rads- 0/52
Surg- 0/54
Uro- 0/18
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Wow...just let it go dude.
 
So, you picked one of the most competitive locales in the country and searched for a minority population and are surprised that none are in there?
 
theraball said:
I've listened to, and conversed with, the incoming AOA president regarding the for-profit school issue, and your statement that they have "not put forth one iota of opposition" to it is not quite right. They were very opposed to the idea but have been basically forced to accept the school or else allow the school to obtain its accreditation from another agency. This was the choice COCA was given, and they decided on the lesser of two evils--to keep the school under their purview. Obviously, politics has played a role here. I don't like the for-profit idea either, but it's not accurate to say the AOA just shooed them in.
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What other agency could that school have obtained accreditation from?
 
tkim said:
Uh, no, dude. UCSF is hella hard to match into.
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Which I understand, but there are other hella hard programs with DOs matching into them especially in IM.
 
Isoprop said:
Which I understand, but there are other hella hard programs with DOs matching into them especially in IM.
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Right, but you're taking not matching into UCSF and generalizing as it being difficult to match into Cali. Not the same.
 
i have regrets, simply because my school keeps forcing the " we DO's are more complete doctors" stuff down my throat every week, which is ridiculous. Just remember to train to be the best doctor you can be, and let DO/MD designations be damned.
 
Instatewaiter said:
So i was curious to see if this was the case and I am bored so I decided to look into it. I chose UCSF b/c they have a really easy website to look at and harvard/hopkins' websites were a pain in the ass to use:

As a disclaimer the ENT, derm, Gas websites do not list degrees.

According to the websites these are the ratio of DOs to total Residents at UCSF

Neuro- 0/43
EM- 0/25
Medicine 0/160
Neurosurg 0/14
optho- 0/15
Ortho 0/31
OB-gyn- 0/32
pathology 0/29
peds- 0/84
psych 0/64
rad-onc 0/13
rads- 0/52
Surg- 0/54
Uro- 0/18
Click to expand...

I bet it was your first choice to pick the school that had 0 DO residents. Totally random ... didn't search all to find the goose egg and make your point.
 
tkim said:
Right, but you're taking not matching into UCSF and generalizing as it being difficult to match into Cali. Not the same.
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point taken.
 
JaggerPlate said:
I bet it was your first choice to pick the school that had 0 DO residents. Totally random ... didn't search all to find the goose egg and make your point.
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as I said I looked at hopkins and MGH first. Neither had an easy to find resident list. 3rd on ceftazidime's list was UCSF. Easy website. You are more than welcome to look through MGH and hopkins' websites for yourself.
 
Instatewaiter said:
as I said I looked at hopkins and MGH first. Neither had an easy to find resident list. 3rd on ceftazidime's list was UCSF. Easy website. You are more than welcome to look through MGH and hopkins' websites for yourself.
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But it was your point to disprove the theory that DO's are represented in big name hospitals...you look it up. We already know the answer
 
I'll be an MD in a month, so I'm coming from that perspective. I can say without a doubt that on my interviews that the competitiveness of a program and the number of DOs in that program are inversely proportional. However, I'm not sure that's because of inherent bias against DOs. A likely cause, at least on some level, is that most competitive allopathic residencies will either not accept COMLEX or knock off a few points from applicants who did not take the USMLE. So if 20% of graduating med students are DOs but only half of those DO grads took the USMLE then that will lower the number of DOs invited for interviews or ranked competitively. If you want to apply to competitive allopathic programs then you must take USMLE step 1 and 2.

Also, people seem to think the AMA is the MD version of the AOA. That's not true. The AMA represents all physicians, both MD and DO. Osteopathic schools get the same vote in the med student section as do MD schools. The AOA is essentially only for DOs. The AMA does not accredit allopathic schools as that falls to the LCME.
 
Hallm_7 said:
Also, people seem to think the AMA is the MD version of the AOA. That's not true. The AMA represents all physicians, both MD and DO. Osteopathic schools get the same vote in the med student section as do MD schools. The AOA is essentially only for DOs. The AMA does not accredit allopathic schools as that falls to the LCME.
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Great point. I agree and I plan to contact them if I'm ever feeling political enough to advocate change (which might start with this DNP-complete autonomy issue).
 
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