Does this constitute cheating?
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Would getting a good night's sleep count as cheating? Or taking a study-skills class?
An advantage is an advantage. While I think that Ritalin and all that has been hyped up to have far more of a placebo effect than actually granting a real advantage, if that's what it takes to make good grades, who cares?
My main concern would be if someone couldn't function and was a complete loser without the drugs. If that was the case, I would worry about how well that person would be able to keep up with medical school (since they were just coasting through undergrad on the drugs), and more importantly, whether that person would still be an effective doctor should he/she run out of a prescription one day and have to go to work without it.
An advantage is an advantage. While I think that Ritalin and all that has been hyped up to have far more of a placebo effect than actually granting a real advantage, if that's what it takes to make good grades, who cares?
My main concern would be if someone couldn't function and was a complete loser without the drugs. If that was the case, I would worry about how well that person would be able to keep up with medical school (since they were just coasting through undergrad on the drugs), and more importantly, whether that person would still be an effective doctor should he/she run out of a prescription one day and have to go to work without it.
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If it does constitute cheating then so does red-bull, so does ACE it gum, and so does coffee. Adderall does not make someone smarter than you, and does not give them an unfair advantage. It allows them to focus more and gives them energy to study longer. Does it help? Absolutely. Does it help as much as stealing a test from a profs drawer, or saving formulas in your calculator, or taking a picture of a cheat sheet on your phone, or paying someone to write a paper for you? No. You are still doing all the work on your own, and you are actually studying for whatever purpose it is you are studying. It's like saying Michael Jordan cheated because he drank gatorade before games...
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i disagree. the way i see it, taking adderall to prep for a test is more like taking steroids to prep and build muscle for a game than it is like the gatorade analogy. both steroids and adderall give you a significant, unnatural advantage. if you take steroids you're also still putting in all the work to prepare...but people are generally outraged when an athlete is discovered to have been 'cheating' by using.
why not just be better organized so you don't need to take adderall and cram the night before? i've never pulled an academic all-nighter in my life. (i also don't drink coffee, red bull, or take any kind of stimulants due to crohn's disease). it can be done.
why not just be better organized so you don't need to take adderall and cram the night before? i've never pulled an academic all-nighter in my life. (i also don't drink coffee, red bull, or take any kind of stimulants due to crohn's disease). it can be done.
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caffeine is available to anyone. big difference.
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It depends. If someone is taking it because they have ADD, then no. If someone is taking it without a prescription, then yes IMO. To me, that is no different than sports players taking performance enhancing drugs. Also, comparing it to coffee is not really accurate. Adderall is much more powerful and pure than coffee and lasts longer as well. Plus anyone can get coffee, not everyone can get adderall.
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Sure, it can be done.
We can also lift pianos without the use of a pulley. It just takes a massive amount more work to get the thing up the stairs to the third floor, doesn't it?
I think that, if we were to look at this from an ethical point of view, the difference between a game and good grades is pretty obvious. As stated earlier, the drug does not give someone inherent knowledge. They do not gain answers from the drugs. All it does is put their brain into a state more ready to absorb information (like a study-skills class would). The end goal is to absorb information, but at the end of the day, there is absolutely nothing wrong with having a lot more information than anyone else. In fact, learning a lot really fast is generally a good thing.
Sports is about playing a game. The game itself means nothing. When people leave the game, the world is the same. They don't apply that game to anything else, nor does the game provide them with a means to move to anything else besides that game (normally). So the game is about playing the game, which means that everyone needs to be playing by the same regulations. Because at the end of the day, the game is only the game.
With college, what you learn goes FAR beyond the test. After passing the class, you're expected to keep going and going with what you've learned, and in cases like that of the pre-med, the amount of information coming at you can be much more easily managed with something like Ritalin. But the difference is that while it might be considered cheating if the end result was just to pass the class, the end result is, instead, to take that knowledge and apply it to the real world in some constructive way.
Besides, looking at the drugs alone can make the difference. Ritalin has, in prescribed doses, shown none of the serious adverse effects that steroids have. It's much more easily controlled in terms of intake, and the danger levels of each drug are pretty disproportionate.
It would be unfair to passively force players of a sport to take drugs that are pretty dangerous and have some serious long term effects just to be competitive with everyone else. Therefore, they are banned, so that nobody has to put themselves in any additional danger than the sport itself provides. College isn't quite like that, both with the fact that college kids aren't regulated by drug rules designed to govern competition and that the drug itself is not nearly on the same level as a typical sports-enhancing steroid.
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To me, you are missing an important part. So much of college is not about how "smart" one is. It is about how much time, effort, and work one is willing to put in. Even if someone is incredibly smart they would still need to study if they have never taken a class in that subject. Its not like they just know it without ever going over the material just because they have an above average IQ.
That is where adderall gives the unfair advantage, when it comes to stamina for studying.
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of course the analogy isn't perfect. i wanted merely to point out that using adderall is far more serious than gatorade, lol.
what you posted also emphasizes another big problem i have with using adderall when you don't have a medical condition that requires using it. using adderall encourages a memorization-oriented approach, when in reality you should be aiming to learn conceptually and to problem solve. any information you learn in a class is most likely not going to stick with you. ask any private practice physician how to arrow push a michael addition, or even to tell you the name of a random muscle in the body - many of them would not know. you do not need to cram or memorize to learn how to problem solve. nor *should* you aim to remember every small factoid from every class you ever take. i think there is a subset of people who are unwilling to put in the time over the course of a semester to learn conceptually, and for many the natural tendency is to procrastinate, which lends itself to memorizing to get by. of course, adderall is then an attractive solution. the majority of people who use adderall are not using it for the noble intentions you've listed.
but we can agree to disagree 🙂
what you posted also emphasizes another big problem i have with using adderall when you don't have a medical condition that requires using it. using adderall encourages a memorization-oriented approach, when in reality you should be aiming to learn conceptually and to problem solve. any information you learn in a class is most likely not going to stick with you. ask any private practice physician how to arrow push a michael addition, or even to tell you the name of a random muscle in the body - many of them would not know. you do not need to cram or memorize to learn how to problem solve. nor *should* you aim to remember every small factoid from every class you ever take. i think there is a subset of people who are unwilling to put in the time over the course of a semester to learn conceptually, and for many the natural tendency is to procrastinate, which lends itself to memorizing to get by. of course, adderall is then an attractive solution. the majority of people who use adderall are not using it for the noble intentions you've listed.
but we can agree to disagree 🙂
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Well, no, not really. Force, now that's another matter.
What the hell is it you think Ritalin is? Sugar pills? It's an amphetamine.
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I can tell you that for the first part of my organic chemistry class, I coasted through purely on lectures. This was mainly because I simply understood stereochemistry, and I understood the differences between isomers, and so on and so forth. I never had to open the book or practice to understand this, and I aced the test.
I know that most of my classmates were copying down notes intently, I know that many of them spent the whole prior weekend studying vigorously, and I know that many of them failed the test.
It had absolutely nothing to do with studying, and it really did have to do with just being able to absorb information. This isn't me boasting about how smart I am. I had to spend a LOT of time studying Physics and working out lots of problems, while there were people in my lecture class that didn't ever seem to try and still aced the class.
So, if we're going to make the "stamina for studying" case, then it would actually be more fair for everyone to have access to ritalin, since there really are people out there who, for some subjects, at least, don't need to do nearly as much studying, and that's just the way they are.
redsquareblack said:
Semantics.
redsquareblack said:
...which, in prescribed doses (ie, the dose actually needed to get the effect most people are after in terms of studying) is not nearly as dangerous as the effects of the OVERDOSING on steroids that sports players need to be competitive.
Anything is dangerous if you take too much. But to bulk up on steroids requires pretty high amounts, when compared with the increasing danger of a higher dose. To get a dose of Ritalin needed to get the "increased focus" effect does not require nearly the same level of danger. In fact, that's the dose that it is prescribed at. Anything more than 20mg per dose, two doses per day is just recreational, and that's when bad things can start happening.
Big difference.
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the 'dangers' of ritalin usage is not really in the scope of this issue imo
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I think it's a lazy person's way out. Man up, make yourself sit down and concentrate, and do it. No drugs necessary.
(Now, if someone's got legitimately diagnosed ADD/ADHD, fine. But when I overhear people talking about borrowing their sorority sister's Ritalin, that's when I get mad)
(Now, if someone's got legitimately diagnosed ADD/ADHD, fine. But when I overhear people talking about borrowing their sorority sister's Ritalin, that's when I get mad)
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Not superficially, no. But if we're going to be explaining the rationale behind sports-enhancing drugs, and try to differentiate them from academically-enhancing drugs, then the dangers of either drug (and therefore why it would be ethically bad to allow) would certainly come into play. I already know that the comparison can't be made between sports and academics, which is why those against the drugs were the first ones to make the argument that they were somehow related.
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They are related. They both allow people to artificially enhance their capabilities. I'm not talking about how dangerous they are, and I don't think the OP was either. Strictly from a performance standpoint, they both, unfairly IMO, allow the user to perform better than someone who does not use.
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Then you should read what I was saying above.
"Unfair" is measured how? In terms of success?
In a game, success in the game is the only objective, and it means nothing outside of the game.
In academics, success per class is NOT the only objective. The objective is to learn that information, and store it so that it can be applied later, whether it's to medicine, business, or whatever. What is learned will likely have an affect on something besides a score board.
Which is why "fair" needs to be better defined. If someone is going to be a better doctor because they were able to learn information at a higher rate and retain it better all because they took a pill, then I have absolutely no problem with them getting a slot in medical school. Their grades are actually indicative of what they learned (as opposed to true cheating, where the grades do NOT represent what they actually learned).
As I stated originally, my problem would arise if the person could only function on drugs, and without the drugs cannot do anything. If this were the case, then the one day they are without the drug, then they are useless, and in the medical world, that's a problem.
But unlike in sports, success in the real world actually means something. The rules and regulations defining the "fairness" of succeeding at a game that has no effect on anything cannot be applied to the real world. That's why it's a game.
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Alright. Can you provide a different argument, then, as to why not? Steroids and sports-enhancing drugs don't make a convincing argument. So for what other reason can it be considered "unfair?"
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read my posts above.
i do think it is unfair, but i think the biggest problem i have with using adderall is that it is self-defeating. in my view, by using adderall you are not only cheating with respect to your classes, but you are also cheating yourself.
i do think it is unfair, but i think the biggest problem i have with using adderall is that it is self-defeating. in my view, by using adderall you are not only cheating with respect to your classes, but you are also cheating yourself.
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If it's breaking the law, it's probably cheating as well.
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They don't arrest you for cheating. They arrest you for breaking and entering (stealing a test), or for taking a controlled substance without a prescription (for Adderol).
That wasn't the question, though.
jla314 said:
How is it self-defeating for a person who doesn't have ADD, but it isn't for someone who does? The drug doesn't work "better" with someone who has ADD. It does the exact same thing, no matter who takes it.
It's just prescribed to ADD patients because it helps their concentration, and they normally have a difficult time with it. But it helps ANYONE'S concentration. It's prescription-based because you can get high off of it, not because it's safer or more effective for people with ADD.
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From my understanding it does work differently for people who have ADHD. It calms them down. For people who don't have it it speeds them up. At least that is how my friend who used to take it said.
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Which is why it's cheating...
Isn't cheating defined to be an action that is against the rules which gives an advantage over the people who don't break the rules?
How does illegally taking substances (yes, taking adderall without a prescription is illegal) not fall into that category?
If adderall use for studying were legal, it wouldn't be cheating. But that would be quite ridiculous.
i think the point here is whether the drug gives an unfair advantage.
from what ive noticed, the drug has effects similar to caffeine, and gives the user more energy. this is nothing more than drinking loads of coffee, and is totally up to the individual to weigh their own costs and benefits.
and if we really have to be picky about medication and drug effects, isnt marijuana something people should be more concerned with?
from what ive noticed, the drug has effects similar to caffeine, and gives the user more energy. this is nothing more than drinking loads of coffee, and is totally up to the individual to weigh their own costs and benefits.
and if we really have to be picky about medication and drug effects, isnt marijuana something people should be more concerned with?
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I said "no".
Users of these drugs do not get "cheats" during an exam but must truly know and understand the material. I have never tried any of these scholastic drugs but there are quite a few people in my upper level science courses who I know use them. I usually perform better than them on the exams, so I don't really see a huge advantage or really care as it is not really effecting me or causing others to "rise above me".
Users of these drugs do not get "cheats" during an exam but must truly know and understand the material. I have never tried any of these scholastic drugs but there are quite a few people in my upper level science courses who I know use them. I usually perform better than them on the exams, so I don't really see a huge advantage or really care as it is not really effecting me or causing others to "rise above me".
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Do you guys realize that you keep comparing coffee to an amphetamine? One is much purer than the other. Which one is it?
Mary-Jane does not enhance a persons ability to study. In fact it usually deters from it.
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It affects different people different ways, but it doesn't have to do with ADD or ADHD. Ritalin and Adderol stimulate the central nervous system, which, in tern, will lead to better concentration. Methylphenidate (generic Ritalin) was patented in 1954. ADHD was not recognized until 1978. As far as I am aware, a drug would only work the way your friend describes if it was acting directly on the cause of ADHD, and not only do we not have a drug for that (as far as I know), but we don't even know what that cause is.
That rumor comes from the fact that someone who has ADD/ADHD has their attention constantly refocusing, which makes them feel (and act) "fast." Ritalin focuses concentration, which means that all of a sudden, random refocuses in concentration aren't happening, which can make it seem like things are slowing down. For people who don't have constantly refocusing attention, the results will feel different, like speeding up. After all, Ritalin is basically a low dose of cocaine, for simplicity's sake.
But at the end of the day, the drug is doing the EXACT same thing to the body. People with ADHD benefit the exact same way people without ADHD would. Which means that every single person who has ADHD has that studying advantage on people without.
So if we're talking "fair", everyone should be allowed to use the drugs.
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So you really think that Adderall is illegal because it gives people an unfair advantage?🙄
It's illegal because you can get high off of it. If you couldn't, I have no doubt in my mind it would be over-the-counter.
We have all been there stressed before a test maxing out our caffeine levels and looking for anything to help our studies. We have all heard how back in the day many many medical students (now our senior preceptors) used cocaine or amphetamines prior to exams to help stay awake and focus for their study. But it poses an interesting question as to if it cheating.... since you ARE doing the studying and learning the material just needing a little help in staying awake or focusing... however it is prescription meds we are talking about... hmmmmm
my take is that if you are prescribed the medications as part of a medical treatment for a medical disorder than it can not be constituted as cheating or abuse... however if it is NOT medicaly prescribed for a REAL disorder (cuzz damn we ALLLL have problems focusing and studying for hours upon hours as mandated by our medical studies) then this would be clearly constituted as drug abuse! It is kinda like the big steroid controversy... some people have testosterone deficiency and NEED exogenous forms of T to get to appropriate levels. If you do not medically require T then it is considered abuse by both the athlete and the prescribing physician. And just like adderol or Ridilin is not a "fix all" pill, neither is exogenous testosterone. We still have to study and learn the material just as the athletes still have to weight train and fine tune their athletic skills --- but lets be real it IS an unfair advantage!!! It IS substance abuse!!
my take is that if you are prescribed the medications as part of a medical treatment for a medical disorder than it can not be constituted as cheating or abuse... however if it is NOT medicaly prescribed for a REAL disorder (cuzz damn we ALLLL have problems focusing and studying for hours upon hours as mandated by our medical studies) then this would be clearly constituted as drug abuse! It is kinda like the big steroid controversy... some people have testosterone deficiency and NEED exogenous forms of T to get to appropriate levels. If you do not medically require T then it is considered abuse by both the athlete and the prescribing physician. And just like adderol or Ridilin is not a "fix all" pill, neither is exogenous testosterone. We still have to study and learn the material just as the athletes still have to weight train and fine tune their athletic skills --- but lets be real it IS an unfair advantage!!! It IS substance abuse!!
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My $.02: If you need a crutch, feel free. I don't care. I can get my work done the old fashioned way.
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I think that was the OP, wasn't it?
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If I could take a pill take made me hyper focused and lessened the amount of time that it would take me to master material? Hell yes! Unfortunately, the only pills that do that have the potential to give me cardiovascular problems. So I'll pass on the amphetamines.
As far as the op's question is concerned, no I don't think it's cheating.
And as far as the news headline "New drug on campus!" LOL They do this "new" drug on campus story every 3 years, and it's the same old drug.
As far as the op's question is concerned, no I don't think it's cheating.
And as far as the news headline "New drug on campus!" LOL They do this "new" drug on campus story every 3 years, and it's the same old drug.
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I think it's self defeating in that the person taking adderall isn't relying upon themselves to simply *study* without breaking the law/taking adderall without a prescription. How can someone feel good about that and themselves? Taking a test is not the end of the world, no need to treat it like that by taking such a drastic step.
Also, as I mentioned in an earlier post, it's mostly self defeating due to the method of studying adderall encourages. Adderall is most widely used in cramming type situations, which i've argued is not the primary mode of learning one would hope for in a future doctor. We need problem solvers and conceptual thinkers, not doctors (or any other types of professional) that rely on a powerful stimulant to "learn" the night before a test. If you never practice learning without adderall, how can you ever hope to cope as a professional? Continue the illegal practice?
And of course there is nothing inherently self-defeating about someone taking adderall if they truly need it for their ADD. I'm just saying if you don't have ADD, you don't need to enhance your concentration artificially - you just need to stop being lazy and study.
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mj IS illegal
So is using prescription pills you do not have a prescription for.
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first of all, if it doesnt calm you down, you shouldnt take it
my brother took the stuff cuz he really had add(though it wouldnt be hard to get a paper claiming you had it too if you knew all the right answers to the good doctors questions...)
anyways theres no guarantee it would even help you unless you really had the problem it was designed for
can make you overly anxious and give you brain blocks...hurt your performance more than enhance it
or...it can make you feel like youre focused and become a crutch(ex:a kid who procrastinates wants a pill one weekend so he could hurry up and catch up on work that was due a week or so before...heh...he graduated salutatorian...)
i have no problem with those who need it to balance them out...and i see how the "not cheating" response could be justified...but in my opinion if your brain is already working just fine in that area you should use the natural chemical god gave you and put the hours in to get the results you desire. blah blah blah blah and so on---
i guess this whole debate could go on forever but i need to study.
so im going to go pop some adderall and get to it😉
my brother took the stuff cuz he really had add(though it wouldnt be hard to get a paper claiming you had it too if you knew all the right answers to the good doctors questions...)
anyways theres no guarantee it would even help you unless you really had the problem it was designed for
can make you overly anxious and give you brain blocks...hurt your performance more than enhance it
or...it can make you feel like youre focused and become a crutch(ex:a kid who procrastinates wants a pill one weekend so he could hurry up and catch up on work that was due a week or so before...heh...he graduated salutatorian
...) i have no problem with those who need it to balance them out...and i see how the "not cheating" response could be justified...but in my opinion if your brain is already working just fine in that area you should use the natural chemical god gave you and put the hours in to get the results you desire. blah blah blah blah and so on---
i guess this whole debate could go on forever but i need to study.
so im going to go pop some adderall and get to it😉
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you guys obviously don't know any med students if you really think this is cheating. half of the med students in your class will be taking adderall. yes, ILLEGALLY OMG
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I think you just disproved your own point. Steroids do not increase muscle mass, they--to use your own phrase--make your muscles rebuild faster and stronger after the workout. You still have to do a workout. Just like you still have to sit down and study with such behavior-altering drugs. Not to mention we're talking about using them without a prescription in a pre-med thread...
srsly?!
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What does knowing med students have to do with cheating? Just because half of them are doing it doesn't make it 'not cheating' lol
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first of all, if it doesnt calm you down, you shouldnt take it
my brother took the stuff cuz he really had add(though it wouldnt be hard to get a paper claiming you had it too if you knew all the right answers to the good doctors questions...)
anyways theres no guarantee it would even help you unless you really had the problem it was designed for
can make you overly anxious and give you brain blocks...hurt your performance more than enhance it
or...it can make you feel like youre focused and become a crutch(ex:a kid who procrastinates wants a pill one weekend so he could hurry up and catch up on work that was due a week or so before...heh...he graduated salutatorian
i have no problem with those who need it to balance them out...and i see how the "not cheating" response could be justified...but in my opinion if your brain is already working just fine in that area you should use the natural chemical god gave you and put the hours in to get the results you desire. blah blah blah blah and so on---
i guess this whole debate could go on forever but i need to study.
so im going to go pop some adderall and get to it😉
you obviously know nothing about ADHD, then. it is VERY easy to be diagnosed as having ADHD. they have a list of very common symptoms that everyone faces at one point or another. I think you need to have 3 of the symptoms to be diagnosed. they test you over a few months before they reach a final diagnosis. ADHD is one of the most overly misdiagnosed illnesses in this country.
so, your argument is flawed. you say it's okay for ppl who are prescribed it to use it, but guess what, half of the ppl who are legally prescribed it are misdiagnosed.
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Strawman argument. The argument isn't whether people are fine with drug abuse; it's about if people consider taking Adderrall a form of cheating. That being the question, I would say that taking Adderrall (for the purpose of enhancing concentration and alertness) is no different than chugging a few Red Bulls in preparation for an all-nighter.
Stupid, yes. Cheating, no.
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-shrug-Originally Posted by minicow
first of all, if it doesnt calm you down, you shouldnt take it
my brother took the stuff cuz he really had add(though it wouldnt be hard to get a paper claiming you had it too if you knew all the right answers to the good doctors questions...)
anyways theres no guarantee it would even help you unless you really had the problem it was designed for
can make you overly anxious and give you brain blocks...hurt your performance more than enhance it
or...it can make you feel like youre focused and become a crutch(ex:a kid who procrastinates wants a pill one weekend so he could hurry up and catch up on work that was due a week or so before...heh...he graduated salutatorian
i have no problem with those who need it to balance them out...and i see how the "not cheating" response could be justified...but in my opinion if your brain is already working just fine in that area you should use the natural chemical god gave you and put the hours in to get the results you desire. blah blah blah blah and so on---
i guess this whole debate could go on forever but i need to study.
so im going to go pop some adderall and get to it😉
i didnt say anything about if theyre prescribed, i said if they had the problem the drug was made to correct.
but whatever.
i understand being misdiagnosed and all
im referring to those who use the pills knowing they dont have add/adhd
bleh: oh yeah, they didnt test my brother more than once
what an amazingly flawed system.
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most people who "abuse" them don't really know how to take it. it really doesn't help you get the right answer, but you can make the original case that roids don't help you hit accurately as much as improve the recovery time during a long season.
idk
idk
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Difference: one is illegal, one is not.
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If the gatorade Michael Jordan was drinking wasn't available to other players because they didn't have a prescription- then yes, that would be cheating.
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