Kind of a unique situation (IA)

stupid1001 · Dec 30, 2012

Just posted a new comment at the end as an update from my meeting with my Premed adviser

Hello everyone,

So this past semester, I received an IA. Here is the background:

As an engineering major, most teacher in the department at my school recommend using a website that used to be called Cramster which contains solutions to multiple textbooks to assist us with homework. The main attractiveness of the website is that it shows you the work to get the solution. I, along with most of my class in the engineering course, used the website to help with our homework. The professor found out that we were using this course and reported, 8 students out of 20 total in the class, to the honor code office of my school.

All of us were called into a meeting with a representative of the honor code office and told us to work out the situation in the meeting or it would go to a committee to decide. All 8 of us of course admitted that we used the site.

The professor wanted to give us all to end up with C's in the class so he decided to deal out the punishment based on what our grades were at that time (middle of the semester). I, along with one other student, had an A and therefor the prof decided to drop both of our final grades by 2 letter grades. Others who had a C or lower were not reduced any points and some were reduced 1 letter grade.

I ended up getting a B as my final grade at the end of the semester which was dropped down to a D.

I understand that I should have made sure with the prof if it was ok with him if we used the website for help with HW but based on my experience with other professors in the department, i didnt think he would mind. Usually for engineering classes, most teachers give you the ans or the solution to the question because that same question will never show up on a test. Its not like you can just memorize it and get an A. You are suppose to use the solution to the question to learn the concept.

How big and how bad of an impact with this have on my ability to be admitted to medical school.

Some info about me: 3.55 cGPA, 3.72 sGPA, 31 MCAT , Great EC, Lots of research (2 publications).

I will be applying the upcoming cycle.

aspiring20 · Dec 30, 2012

stupid1001 said:
Hello everyone,

So this past semester, I received an IA. Here is the background:

As an engineering major, most teacher in the department at my school recommend using a website that used to be called Cramster which contains solutions to multiple textbooks to assist us with homework. The main attractiveness of the website is that it shows you the work to get the solution. I, along with most of my class in the engineering course, used the website to help with our homework. The professor found out that we were using this course and reported, 8 students out of 20 total in the class, to the honor code office of my school.

All of us were called into a meeting with a representative of the honor code office and told us to work out the situation in the meeting or it would go to a committee to decide. All 8 of us of course admitted that we used the site.

The professor wanted to give us all to end up with C's in the class so he decided to deal out the punishment based on what our grades were at that time (middle of the semester). I, along with one other student, had an A and therefor the prof decided to drop both of our final grades for 2 letter grades. Others who had a C or lower were not reduced any points and some were reduced 1 letter grade.

I ended up getting a B as my final grade at the end of the semester which was dropped down to a D.

I understand that I should have made sure with the prof if it was ok with him if we used the website for help with HW but based on my experience with other professors in the department, i didnt think he would mind. Usually for engineering classes, most teachers give you the ans or the solution to the question because that same question will never show up on a test. Its not like you can just memorize it and get an A. You are suppose to use the solution to the question to learn the concept.

How big and how bad of an impact with this have on my ability to be admitted to medical school.

Some info about me: 3.55 cGPA, 3.72 sGPA, studying for MCAT right now, Great EC, Lots of research (2 publications).

I will be applying the upcoming cycle.

so your professor never explicitly told you that you can use cramster, but you did it anyways because most other professors in the department don't have a problem with it? it is a stupid mistake on your part, but i dont think the incident as a whole will be a big deal. now, the crucial question is whether this counts as an institutional action at your school. what was the specific violation that you were found responsible for? is it something under the academic-honesty clause? regardless, i believe this incident is relatively minor, and it should not derail your plans.

perhaps LizzyM can offer some advice.

stupid1001 · Dec 30, 2012

aspiring20 said:
so your professor never explicitly told you that you can use cramster, but you did it anyways because most other professors in the department don't have a problem with it? it is a stupid mistake on your part, but i dont think the incident as a whole will be a big deal. now, the crucial question is whether this counts as an institutional action at your school. what was the specific violation that you were found responsible for? is it something under the academic-honesty clause? regardless, i believe this incident is relatively minor, and it should not derail your plans.

perhaps LizzyM can offer some advice.

I agree. It was the stupidest thing I have done in my life due to its immense consequences. I was found responsible for plagiarism I believe. I think I would have to list it even if it was not considered institutional action because my school committee does a check with the honor code office and this would show up. I have an appointment in the near future with the premed committee (basically one guy) to talk about this and how he would report this.

aspiring20 · Dec 30, 2012

stupid1001 said:
I agree. It was the stupidest thing I have done in my life due to its immense consequences. I was found responsible for plagiarism I believe. I think I would have to list it even if it was not considered institutional action because my school committee does a check with the honor code office and this would show up. I have an appointment in the near future with the premed committee (basically one guy) to talk about this and how he would report this.

is the incident noted on your disciplinary record (not transcript) maintained by your school? if it is, then it basically counts as an IA no matter how minor it was.

you mentioned that you'll be applying this upcoming cycle (june 2013)? in my opinion, you should wait a year and put some distance between this incident and your application.

but definitely talk to your premed dean on how to approach this issue.

it most likely isn't as bad as you think it is, good luck and stay strong!

lucitrea · Dec 30, 2012

i cant believe you guys didnt fight that. i think you will be fine as long as you can explain what happened.

plumhill · Dec 30, 2012

stupid1001 said:
Hello everyone,

So this past semester, I received an IA. Here is the background:

As an engineering major, most teacher in the department at my school recommend using a website that used to be called Cramster which contains solutions to multiple textbooks to assist us with homework. The main attractiveness of the website is that it shows you the work to get the solution. I, along with most of my class in the engineering course, used the website to help with our homework. The professor found out that we were using this course and reported, 8 students out of 20 total in the class, to the honor code office of my school.

All of us were called into a meeting with a representative of the honor code office and told us to work out the situation in the meeting or it would go to a committee to decide. All 8 of us of course admitted that we used the site.

The professor wanted to give us all to end up with C's in the class so he decided to deal out the punishment based on what our grades were at that time (middle of the semester). I, along with one other student, had an A and therefor the prof decided to drop both of our final grades for 2 letter grades. Others who had a C or lower were not reduced any points and some were reduced 1 letter grade.

I ended up getting a B as my final grade at the end of the semester which was dropped down to a D.

I understand that I should have made sure with the prof if it was ok with him if we used the website for help with HW but based on my experience with other professors in the department, i didnt think he would mind. Usually for engineering classes, most teachers give you the ans or the solution to the question because that same question will never show up on a test. Its not like you can just memorize it and get an A. You are suppose to use the solution to the question to learn the concept.

How big and how bad of an impact with this have on my ability to be admitted to medical school.

Some info about me: 3.55 cGPA, 3.72 sGPA, studying for MCAT right now, Great EC, Lots of research (2 publications).

I will be applying the upcoming cycle.

If there is going to be a record of you cheating in any document that can or will show up in your application, then you're pretty much done (refer to the LizzyM thread where she said that med schools don't want liars, cheaters or criminals in med schools). However, if the only "trace" of this incident is getting a D in that course, then you're okay (and very, very lucky. At my school, being caught using an illicit online resource would result in an automatic failure and further action by the University). You have to decide for yourself how you will answer if asked about that D in an interview, but one bad grade won't rule you out.

Your numbers are good and if your MCAT is also strong, hopefully this won't keep you out.

Lollygag · Dec 30, 2012

Well if nothing is on your record nor has ever been on your record then there is no proof of it and I don't see why it would need to be reported. If it is an IA tho and is on your record then it must be reported. From the looks of it though, it seems like your professor took matters into his own hands and didn't go through all the judicial stuff.

You should talk to your university and find out if its on record or not

plumhill · Dec 30, 2012

stupid1001 said:
I agree. It was the stupidest thing I have done in my life due to its immense consequences. I was found responsible for plagiarism I believe. I think I would have to list it even if it was not considered institutional action because my school committee does a check with the honor code office and this would show up. I have an appointment in the near future with the premed committee (basically one guy) to talk about this and how he would report this.

Wait what? Uh, what you did was bad, but it wasn't plagiarism.....you're going to want to look into this and be clear on exactly how you'll be reported.

stupid1001 · Dec 30, 2012

aspiring20 said:
is the incident noted on your disciplinary record (not transcript) maintained by your school? if it is, then it basically counts as an IA no matter how minor it was.

you mentioned that you'll be applying this upcoming cycle (june 2013)? in my opinion, you should wait a year and put some distance between this incident and your application.

but definitely talk to your premed dean on how to approach this issue.

it most likely isn't as bad as you think it is, good luck and stay strong!

It is not on my transcript. It is only in a file at the Honor Code office. I agree, I think it would count as an IA.

Ismet · Dec 30, 2012

You should try to bring this up with the dean or the head of the honor council and explain your situation. The professor probably thought you were just copying the solutions and handing it in for a grade rather than getting hints or help for the homework. Unless the professor explicitly said to NOT use Cramster, slapping you with a plagiarism charge is unjust.

plumhill said:
At my school, being caught using an illicit online resource would result in an automatic failure and further action by the University

Cramster isn't an "illicit online resource." I used it for help when I took calculus and calc-based physics. There's a difference between using it for help with homework and just completely copying the solutions and handing in the homework. What's the difference between using it responsibly and working on the homework with a classmate, getting help on the steps you don't understand? Cramster for math/science is like SparkNotes for English/lit. Yes it can definitely be abused (and plagiarized) but it can also be a valuable resource if used responsibly.

stupid1001 · Dec 30, 2012

Lollygag said:
Well if nothing is on your record nor has ever been on your record then there is no proof of it and I don't see why it would need to be reported. If it is an IA tho and is on your record then it must be reported. From the looks of it though, it seems like your professor took matters into his own hands and didn't go through all the judicial stuff.

You should talk to your university and find out if its on record or not

Actually, he did. The first step in the official guideline is the meeting I mentioned above. If we cant come to a conclusion in the meeting, the case is passed on to a committee who makes a decision. The options for decision from the committee were EVERY strong such as a note on the transcript, exposition, suspension, etc. That's why we decided not to fight it any more and just accept the punishment.

stupid1001 · Dec 30, 2012

Ismet said:
You should try to bring this up with the dean or the head of the honor council and explain your situation. The professor probably thought you were just copying the solutions and handing it in for a grade rather than getting hints or help for the homework. Unless the professor explicitly said to NOT use Cramster, slapping you with a plagiarism charge is unjust.

Cramster isn't an "illicit online resource." I used it for help when I took calculus and calc-based physics. There's a difference between using it for help with homework and just completely copying the solutions and handing in the homework. What's the difference between using it responsibly and working on the homework with a classmate, getting help on the steps you don't understand? Cramster for math/science is like SparkNotes for English/lit. Yes it can definitely be abused (and plagiarized) but it can also be a valuable resource if used responsibly.

He knew that we weren't just copying it. That topic came up in our meeting but he still said that it was illegal to be using the website. There is no way I would have had an A in the class if I was just copying the hw rather than using it for guidance as you said.

Ismet · Dec 30, 2012

stupid1001 said:
He knew that we weren't just copying it. That topic came up in our meeting but he still said that it was illegal to be using the website. There is no way I would have had an A in the class if I was just copying the hw rather than using it for guidance as you said.

That's just ridiculous. It is definitely not an illegal site. I see very little difference between using Cramster for help and getting help from a classmate or tutor, but maybe that's just me.

EarthtoneJon · Dec 30, 2012

As a college instructor myself, I empathize with professors who need to deal with cases like this. But if your story is accurate, and there are no omissions, I believe that your professor is wrong this time. Here are the reasons why:

1) Your professor never explicitly stated that you could not use Cramster (or, I'm guessing, a solutions manual, which is commercially available for most text books!) Stealing an answer code or cheat sheet from the university, department, or individual professor is one thing. Obtaining perfectly legal, commercially available information is quite another. Unless the syllabus explicitly stated that Cramster was off limits, or it was otherwise disseminated to the entire class in writing, IT ISN'T LAW. I have been in similar situations where there is a discrepancy between what students should do, and what they have been formally instructed to do. In situations like these, the instructor must "eat" his or her mistakes; in other words, he or she should admit that he or she failed to clarify the issue in the syllabus, try to level the playing field by making those solutions available to the rest of the class, and then say "OK, no more Cramster from here on out."

2) You lost 2 letter grades, whereas some students lost 1 or none. This is absolutely unacceptable. Academic infractions should rarely be punishable at the whim of the instructor. Just like there is a rubric for every quiz, test, etc. outlining point distribution, your university should have a rubric of sorts that outlines the various academic infractions, and what their specific, quantitative punishment should be. Of course, there are some situations that fall outside the boundaries, so the professor is free to use his or discretion. But deducting a different number of points from two different students for what are basically identical infractions is shameful.

stupid1001 · Dec 30, 2012

EarthtoneJon said:
As a college instructor myself, I empathize with professors who need to deal with cases like this. But if your story is accurate, and there are no omissions, I believe that your professor is wrong this time. Here are the reasons why:

1) Your professor never explicitly stated that you could not use Cramster (or, I'm guessing, a solutions manual, which is commercially available for most text books!) Stealing an answer code or cheat sheet from the university, department, or individual professor is one thing. Obtaining perfectly legal, commercially available information is quite another. Unless the syllabus explicitly stated that Cramster was off limits, or it was otherwise disseminated to the entire class in writing, IT ISN'T LAW. I have been in similar situations where there is a discrepancy between what students should do, and what they have been formally instructed to do. In situations like these, the instructor must "eat" his or her mistakes; in other words, he or she should admit that he or she failed to clarify the issue in the syllabus, try to level the playing field by making those solutions available to the rest of the class, and then say "OK, no more Cramster from here on out."

2) You lost 2 letter grades, whereas some students lost 1 or none. This is absolutely unacceptable. Academic infractions should rarely be punishable at the whim of the instructor. Just like there is a rubric for every quiz, test, etc. outlining point distribution, your university should have a rubric of sorts that outlines the various academic infractions, and what their specific, quantitative punishment should be. Of course, there are some situations that fall outside the boundaries, so the professor is free to use his or discretion. But deducting a different number of points from two different students for what are basically identical infractions is shameful.

I agree with you in every respect. He did not say cramster can not be used. In fact, many people in the class actually bought the solution manual (sold at our book store) to use for the semester. A lot of people don't like to "eat their mistakes" as you put it and I believe that was the case here. Another problem is that the professors are given too much power in cases like these at my school. Even though there was a representative from the honor code office sitting there to moderate the meeting, she did not say anything about giving out different punishments to different individuals for the same crime.

LizzyM · Dec 30, 2012

Well, you'll need to report this institutional action. Whether you are dealt with harshly or not will be up to each school. This does seem a bit different than "cheating" so some adcoms may have pity on you. It doesn't change the fact that a 1.0 in a physics class is going to damage your gpa. In fact, seeing that the D was a punishment and not a reflection of your academic performance might actually help reassure adcoms that you have the academic abililty to do well, you just made an error in judgment.

aspiring20 · Dec 30, 2012

OP, i think it is important to state in your explanation that your professor did not explicitly forbid cramster.com. he didn't say anything regarding the website, so you assumed that he doesn't have a problem with it because the other professors in the department are fine with the website.

so based on well-reasoned grounds, you made an assumption that turned out to be incorrect. it was an error in your judgement, but it really is entirely different from willfully cheating on an exam. intent is VERY important in cases like this, and it's clear that your intent is NOT to cheat. so i wouldn't worry about it too much, but i still stand by my previous statement suggesting you delay your app for a year.

stupid1001 · Dec 30, 2012

aspiring20 said:
OP, i think it is important to state in your explanation that your professor did not explicitly forbid cramster.com. he didn't say anything regarding the website, so you assumed that he doesn't have a problem with it because the other professors in the department are fine with the website.

so based on well-reasoned grounds, you made an assumption that turned out to be incorrect. it was an error in your judgement, but it really is entirely different from willfully cheating on an exam. intent is VERY important in cases like this, and it's clear that your intent is NOT to cheat. so i wouldn't worry about it too much, but i still stand by my previous statement suggesting you delay your app for a year.

Thank You. I will make sure to state that it was not my intention to cheat. Is there anything else I should add about this situation when I submit my application.

What is the benefit of delaying my application for a year? I will still have to report the IA, right?

aspiring20 · Dec 30, 2012

stupid1001 said:
Thank You. I will make sure to state that it was not my intention to cheat. Is there anything else I should add about this situation when I submit my application.

What is the benefit of delaying my application for a year? I will still have to report the IA, right?

since this incident just happened, and you are applying this coming june, there is very little time between the incident and your application. if you wait a year, you can say that the incident happened "over 1.5 years ago" and that you had a solid year to reflect, grow, and whatnot.

i also have an IA that needs to be reported, although it is a minor one that yours. however, my IA probably will benefit MORE from a delayed app than yours.

some IAs can be explained away with the passage of time.

but i would talk to your adviser first and hear what he suggests. you can also PM LizzyM and ask for her opinion.

stupid1001 · Dec 30, 2012

LizzyM said:
Well, you'll need to report this institutional action. Whether you are dealt with harshly or not will be up to each school. This does seem a bit different than "cheating" so some adcoms may have pity on you. It doesn't change the fact that a 1.0 in a physics class is going to damage your gpa. In fact, seeing that the D was a punishment and not a reflection of your academic performance might actually help reassure adcoms that you have the academic abililty to do well, you just made an error in judgment.

Thank You for your input,

Getting the D in an engineering class did hurt my cGPA (3.55 after the incident) but my sGPA was not hurt (3.72).

Si Se Puede · Dec 30, 2012

First, you should definitely read up on your school's honor code. Second, try looking at the teacher's syllabus for any honor code bulletpoints. In this case, if you did not copy down the answers and work, then I believe your actions would not violate any of the specifics on the honor code. One point of concern is that for engineering problems, if you did use Cramster as an aid to homework because you did not know how to solve that particular problem, then I don't see how you would have used the resource to just learn and not copy down their work for a particular problem; your teacher may be coming from this viewpoint. I would try your best to try and remedy the situation before just accepting it. Good luck!

stupid1001 · Dec 30, 2012

Si Se Puede said:
First, you should definitely read up on your school's honor code. Second, try looking at the teacher's syllabus for any honor code bulletpoints. In this case, if you did not copy down the answers and work, then I believe your actions would not violate any of the specifics on the honor code. One point of concern is that for engineering problems, if you did use Cramster as an aid to homework because you did not know how to solve that particular problem, then I don't see how you would have used the resource to just learn and not copy down their work for a particular problem; your teacher may be coming from this viewpoint. I would try your best to try and remedy the situation before just accepting it. Good luck!

I approached all these avenues while going through the situation but the only step I could take was to allow the decision to go to a committee. If the committee had found me guilty, the punishments would have been MUCH harsher. Therefore, I had to settle with what the professor wanted to do.

plumhill · Dec 30, 2012

Ismet said:
Cramster isn't an "illicit online resource." I used it for help when I took calculus and calc-based physics. There's a difference between using it for help with homework and just completely copying the solutions and handing in the homework. What's the difference between using it responsibly and working on the homework with a classmate, getting help on the steps you don't understand? Cramster for math/science is like SparkNotes for English/lit. Yes it can definitely be abused (and plagiarized) but it can also be a valuable resource if used responsibly.

Lucky you...too bad at my school, anything online that wasn't "approved" was considered illicit, and using it would have been considered cheating, unless you had a very lenient professor.

IlDestriero · Dec 30, 2012

If what you wrote is correct and true, I would have taken it to the honor committee. There was no clear intent to cheat, especially if others used similar materials available at the book store and were not brought before the committee. Also, it does not even appear that there was a violation at all, assuming the professor's course materials didn't explicitly ban solution manuals or that web site. This would have almost certainly been dismissed by the committee after investigation at my old school.
Why would you admit to doing something that you didn't do? I don't understand that decision. There is a reason that the honor committee exists, half that reason is to protect the innocent. Too late now however.

LizzyM · Dec 30, 2012

stupid1001 said:
I approached all these avenues while going through the situation but the only step I could take was to allow the decision to go to a committee. If the committee had found me guilty, the punishments would have been MUCH harsher. Therefore, I had to settle with what the professor wanted to do.

You should ask the school administration if the action was an institutional action or if the school chose not to act and deferred to the professor to dock your grade (an action that the school administration can't do). There is an outside chance that this is not an institutional action but you might want to be very sure before failing to report it, particularly if your "committee letter" reports it as an IA (in which case you might as well get a job at the local pet store becuase that's the closest you'll ever get to medicine).

deleted307836 · Dec 30, 2012

IlDestriero said:
If what you wrote is correct and true, I would have taken it to the honor committee. There was no clear intent to cheat, especially if others used similar materials available at the book store and were not brought before the committee. Also, it does not even appear that there was a violation at all, assuming the professor's course materials didn't explicitly ban solution manuals or that web site. This would have almost certainly been dismissed by the committee after investigation at my old school.
Why would you admit to doing something that you didn't do? I don't understand that decision. There is a reason that the honor committee exists, half that reason is to protect the innocent. Too late now however.

I agree with this; how was this not seen before the honor committee? What you did was absolutely not worthy of any type of disciplinary action. Is is it really too late though to bring this before a committee? It doesn't sound like you were able to make your case. Again, assuming this was not prohibited in the syllabus or by verbal warnings from the professor, you didn't do anything wrong.

deleted307836 · Dec 30, 2012

LizzyM said:
You should ask the school administration if the action was an institutional action or if the school chose not to act and deferred to the professor to dock your grade (an action that the school administration can't do). There is an outside chance that this is not an institutional action but you might want to be very sure before failing to report it, particularly if your "committee letter" reports it as an IA (in which case you might as well get a job at the local pet store becuase that's the closest you'll ever get to medicine).

This is a good point. If it were a true IA for 'plagiarism' I would think your grade would have been an F instead. Definitely look into this OP.

aspiring20 · Dec 30, 2012

LizzyM said:
You should ask the school administration if the action was an institutional action or if the school chose not to act and deferred to the professor to dock your grade (an action that the school administration can't do). There is an outside chance that this is not an institutional action but you might want to be very sure before failing to report it, particularly if your "committee letter" reports it as an IA (in which case you might as well get a job at the local pet store becuase that's the closest you'll ever get to medicine).

i am not sure if you are aware of this, but many schools are purposefully ambiguous on whether something counts as an "IA" according to amcas definitions.

stupid1001 · Dec 30, 2012

LizzyM said:
You should ask the school administration if the action was an institutional action or if the school chose not to act and deferred to the professor to dock your grade (an action that the school administration can't do). There is an outside chance that this is not an institutional action but you might want to be very sure before failing to report it, particularly if your "committee letter" reports it as an IA (in which case you might as well get a job at the local pet store becuase that's the closest you'll ever get to medicine).

aspiring20 said:
i am not sure if you are aware of this, but many schools are purposefully ambiguous on whether something counts as an "IA" according to amcas definitions.

I will talk about this with my premed committee in our upcoming meeting and make sure. The lady that moderated our meeting said that this was something "that would be kept in the file at their office and that they cannot release it to anyone without my permission. It was a way for them to take harsher steps toward you if you were to be charged with something like this again". The problem is that I know for a fact that I have to give consent to the premed committee at my school to do a check with the honor office. They would defiantly find out about it.

stupid1001 · Dec 30, 2012

Most probably, I will end up reporting it as IA. I would much rather be safe than to be sorry if they were to find out from any other sources.

aspiring20 · Dec 30, 2012

stupid1001 said:
Most probably, I will end up reporting it as IA. I would much rather be safe than to be sorry if they were to find out from any other sources.

if it isn't considered an IA by the school, then you can ignore it with a 100 % clear conscious. however, like i stated earlier, schools can be purposefully ambiguous on whether something counts as an "IA".

i would talk to the dean responsible for dealing with disciplinary records and show him the amcas question verbatim. then, ask him if you should answer yes or no (no other choices). chances are in your situation, the dean will give an ambiguous answer. if that's the case, then i really dont know what you should do.

dbeast · Dec 30, 2012

I'm just shocked this was such a huge deal. I openly told my calc 2 professor about cramster and I was raving to him about how much it helped me without even giving it a second thought that it could be interpreted as cheating. I mean, if you just copy down the homework without using it to understand the material, you're gonna fail the ish out of the test and everything balances out. Hmmm... maybe I shouldn't be so open with people.

stupid1001 · Dec 30, 2012

dbeast said:
I'm just shocked this was such a huge deal. I openly told my calc 2 professor about cramster and I was raving to him about how much it helped me without even giving it a second thought that it could be interpreted as cheating. I mean, if you just copy down the homework without using it to understand the material, you're gonna fail the ish out of the test and everything balances out. Hmmm... maybe I shouldn't be so open with people.

Ya its something that most of my engineering and math professors support. You should definitely be more careful.

stupid1001 · Dec 30, 2012

aspiring20 said:
if it isn't considered an IA by the school, then you can ignore it with a 100 % clear conscious. however, like i stated earlier, schools can be purposefully ambiguous on whether something counts as an "IA".

i would talk to the dean responsible for dealing with disciplinary records and show him the amcas question verbatim. then, ask him if you should answer yes or no (no other choices). chances are in your situation, the dean will give an ambiguous answer. if that's the case, then i really dont know what you should do.

You and me both man. Cant believe I am in this situation.

aspiring20 · Dec 30, 2012

CityLights said:
I agree with this; how was this not seen before the honor committee? What you did was absolutely not worthy of any type of disciplinary action. Is is it really too late though to bring this before a committee? It doesn't sound like you were able to make your case. Again, assuming this was not prohibited in the syllabus or by verbal warnings from the professor, you didn't do anything wrong.

i would be careful. i can't speak for OP's situation/school, but i also have an IA and if i were to tell you the reason, you would be pretty shocked as well. however, i think i did deserve my IA, a very minor one.

my point is, universities have very rigid rules that are sometimes inflexible. but in my experience, the administration are fair individuals who have high expectations for their students.

stupid1001 · Dec 30, 2012

aspiring20 said:
i would be careful. i can't speak for OP's situation/school, but i also have an IA and if i were to tell you the reason, you would be pretty shocked as well. however, i think i did deserve my IA, a very minor one.

my point is, universities have very rigid rules that are sometimes inflexible. but in my experience, the administration are fair individuals who have high expectations for their students.

Have you applied to medical school yet? If so, how was your situation viewed by the admission committee? How were you asked about it during interviews?

aspiring20 · Dec 30, 2012

stupid1001 said:
Have you applied to medical school yet? If so, how was your situation viewed by the admission committee? How were you asked about it during interviews?

i am not applying until 2014, but i've talked to the deans at my school, the adcoms on SDN, and members on SDN.

the consensus is that my IA will have little to no impact. it didn't involve alcohol, drugs, academic issues, or any sort of criminal actions. it was a careless mistake on my part.

Doctor Strange · Dec 30, 2012

stupid1001 said:
The professor wanted to give us all to end up with C's in the class so he decided to deal out the punishment based on what our grades were at that time (middle of the semester). I, along with one other student, had an A and therefor the prof decided to drop both of our final grades by 2 letter grades. Others who had a C or lower were not reduced any points and some were reduced 1 letter grade.

I ended up getting a B as my final grade at the end of the semester which was dropped down to a D.

This does not seem fair at all. Does your school have a grievance committee? If so, I would appeal to them, because this action, to me, is pretty arbitrary, capricious, and unjust. In essence, a portion of the "offenders" were not penalized at all, while some of you were significantly penalized in comparison.

aspiring20 · Dec 30, 2012

OP, how's your current relationship with the professor of this class?

another thing you can consider is to have this professor write you a LOR and explain that you are a bright and honest kid who made an error in judgement. basically, have the professor comment that it isn't a big deal at all.

of course, this is risky, especially if the relationship between you and the prof is strained.

aspiring20 · Dec 30, 2012

Doctor Strange said:
This does not seem fair at all. Does your school have a grievance committee? If so, I would appeal to them, because this action, to me, is pretty arbitrary, capricious, and unjust. In essence, a portion of the "offenders" were not penalized at all, while some of you were significantly penalized in comparison.

this is a good suggestion. at most schools, you can file an appeal based on clearly stated grounds. it is worth a shot, regardless of the final outcome.

stupid1001 · Dec 30, 2012

aspiring20 said:
OP, how's your current relationship with the professor of this class?

another thing you can consider is to have this professor write you a LOR and explain that you are a bright and honest kid who made an error in judgement. basically, have the professor comment that it isn't a big deal at all.

of course, this is risky, especially if the relationship between you and the prof is strained.

Our relationship is fine but it would be very risky to ask him for a LOR since the LOR would probably be a closed letter. I would not be able to see the letter and I cant be sure he would write good things about me.

stupid1001 · Dec 30, 2012

aspiring20 said:
this is a good suggestion. at most schools, you can file an appeal based on clearly stated grounds. it is worth a shot, regardless of the final outcome.

The appeal could only have been done 2 business days after the agreement in the meeting. The appeal would send the case to the honor committee.

deleted307836 · Dec 30, 2012

stupid1001 said:
Our relationship is fine but it would be very risky to ask him for a LOR since the LOR would probably be a closed letter. I would not be able to see the letter and I cant be sure he would write good things about me.

Yeah, don't do this. It sounds like the professor was the one who instigated this based on his belief that what you were doing was ethically wrong. Not someone you want contributing to your admissions portfolio. Sorry that you're dealing with this.

Josh7 · Dec 30, 2012

I don't understand what you did wrong. Your professor caught you using cramster? Are your homework assignments really worth that much? In my engineering classes the HW assignments are worth usually <5% and they aren't really graded for accuracy most of the time.

This is really an unfortunate situation. What's different about you owning the "teacher's edition" of the textbook which is openly available on amazon.

tl;dr your professor needs to get with the times and create unique homework problems or stop relying on homework for an accurate representation of learned knowledge.

stupid1001 · Dec 30, 2012

Josh7 said:
I don't understand what you did wrong. Your professor caught you using cramster? Are your homework assignments really worth that much? In my engineering classes the HW assignments are worth usually <5% and they aren't really graded for accuracy most of the time.

This is really an unfortunate situation. What's different about you owning the "teacher's edition" of the textbook which is openly available on amazon.

tl;dr your professor needs to get with the times and create unique homework problems or stop relying on homework for an accurate representation of learned knowledge.

Our HW was only worth 10% but he really wanted to make sure we were all "punished". So he reduced some people 2 letter grades while no grade reduction for others.

stupid1001 · Dec 30, 2012

CityLights said:
Yeah, don't do this. It sounds like the professor was the one who instigated this based on his belief that what you were doing was ethically wrong. Not someone you want contributing to your admissions portfolio. Sorry that you're dealing with this.

That's alright man. Thank you for the advise.

Josh7 · Dec 30, 2012

stupid1001 said:
Our HW was only worth 10% but he really wanted to make sure we were all "punished". So he reduced some people 2 letter grades while no grade reduction for others.

The main reason for homework in the engineering classes is for practice of concepts. If you're still getting A's and B's on the exams then it isn't like you're getting nothing out of the homework. That really sucks

stupid1001 · Dec 30, 2012

Josh7 said:
The main reason for homework in the engineering classes is for practice of concepts. If you're still getting A's and B's on the exams then it isn't like you're getting nothing out of the homework. That really sucks

Yep, I agree. How can I get this message across to the admission committee members or my premed committee people since these people (people a generation older than us) don't really understand the difference between using a website like cramster or cheating?

Winged Scapula · Dec 30, 2012

Help an old lady out: what is IA?

Josh7 · Dec 30, 2012

stupid1001 said:
Yep, I agree. How can I get this message across to the admission committee members or my premed committee people since these people (people a generation older than us) don't really understand the difference between using a website like cramster or cheating?

I'm not exactly sure. What exactly is cramster? I'd assume it's just like a step by step solution of the problems? If you were just copying those exactly and then turning in the assignment I don't think there's much you can do but if you were just using the solutions as a reference occasionally you could say that it's no different than doing the assignment with a friend.

Kind of a unique situation (IA)

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