DO physicians can get MD title?

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WaterDragon

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I am just curious and it might sounds ridiculous...but after you graduate from the DO school, is it possible for DO physicians to obtain the MD title? I know that you can take the USMLE to match into ACGME residencies as DO students depending on the specialty. But, I was just wondering if DO graduates have a chance to get the MD title. You might reply to me like "why don't you just attend the MD school if you care about the title?" I will be attending the KCOM this Fall and I don't really care about the title, but one of my friends asked me if DO graduates can try for getting the MD title. I thought at first that it is meaningless to obtain both even if it is possible since after you graduate from either med school, you can practice. What benefits would be there to have both titles? That is what I thought, I couldn't easily find about this online. That is why I wanted to post this. Also, I heard from someone that MD graduates can obtain the DO title by passing the test(?)...

I apologize for my ignorance in advance.
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Didn't they use to do that in California during the 1960s for a $65 filing fee?
 
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WaterDragon said:
I am just curious and it might sounds ridiculous...but after you graduate from the DO school, is it possible for DO physicians to obtain the MD title?
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If you graduate from an osteopathic school you will have a DO degree and if you graduate from an allopathic school you will have an MD degree. There is no way to "get the other degree" just because you have one of them. In fact, in my state (and I imagine most/all others), it is illegal for a physician to misrepresent their degree. For example, a DO can't run an advertisement saying they are an "MD" or vice versa.

I thought at first that it is meaningless to obtain both even if it is possible since after you graduate from either med school, you can practice. What benefits would be there to have both titles?
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Yes, you are right there is absolutely no reason to get both degrees since you are a physician with either degree and no one in their right mind wants to repeat med school and double their student loan debt.

@costales: Back in the 1960's in California the state did offer a one time degree change for a small fee. But that has never happened again and given the AOA's efforts to keep DO a separate degree, probably will never happen again. Though from time to time, people bring up the issue of changing the DO degree to some variation with MD - the current suggestion is "MD, DO." But, really, probably never gonna happen.

Also, I heard from someone that MD graduates can obtain the DO title by passing the test(?)...
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You can take the USMLEs as a DO student (and many DO students do) but that will not change your degree. Neither would sitting for the COMLEX change an MD to a DO. In fact, I doubt they'd allow an MD student to register for the COMLEX since MD students are not permitted to do AOA residencies.

Now, there are some courses offered for MDs to learn osteopathic techniques if they are interested. But again, this won't change their degree.
 
There is a school in the carib that will give DOs an MD degree, but the MD degree doesn't really hold in most states. You can obviously practice legally as a DO, but you'll still have to advertise yourself as a DO. I guess it can help if you want to author a book or something that an MD helps market to the mass, but otherwise, a complete waste of time and money.
 
Planets said:
There is a school in the carib that will give DOs an MD degree, but the MD degree doesn't really hold in most states. You can obviously practice legally as a DO, but you'll still have to advertise yourself as a DO. I guess it can help if you want to author a book or something that an MD helps market to the mass, but otherwise, a complete waste of time and money.
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I have heard of someone who graduated DO, did an ACGME residency, and received his MD degree from a Caribbean school while still in residency. He moved to a different state and applied for licensure. The state board lists him as a "Medical Doctor" (the way it lists MDs licensed in that state) and not an "Osteopathic Physician" (the way it lists DOs licensed in that state).
 
whatbout2morrow said:
I have heard of someone who graduated DO, did an ACGME residency, and received his MD degree from a Caribbean school while still in residency. He moved to a different state and applied for licensure. The state board lists him as a "Medical Doctor" (the way it lists MDs licensed in that state) and not an "Osteopathic Physician" (the way it lists DOs licensed in that state).
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What state?
 
This is a bit off topic but I've heard that KCUMB will offer the MD degree starting with the 2015-2016 matriculating class... can anyone confirm this? It kinda makes sense, given that KCUMB's stats are above those of the low-tier MD schools (especially the HBCs and Carib) and Missouri already has one DO school.
 
Santorum Surge said:
This is a bit off topic but I've heard that KCUMB will offer the MD degree starting with the 2015-2016 matriculating class... can anyone confirm this? It kinda makes sense, given that KCUMB's stats are above those of the low-tier MD schools (especially the HBCs and Carib) and Missouri already has one DO school.
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Oh baby
 
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Santorum Surge said:
This is a bit off topic but I've heard that KCUMB will offer the MD degree starting with the 2015-2016 matriculating class... can anyone confirm this? It kinda makes sense, given that KCUMB's stats are above those of the low-tier MD schools (especially the HBCs and Carib) and Missouri already has one DO school.
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No this is false. They were thinking about offering an MD,DO degree 3 years ago, however it was shot down by the AOA.
 
I don't think the AOA wants people to be able to switch from DO to MD. They reacted to the California DO "amnesty" in the 60's as an existential threat.

Too bad. It would be better for everyone.
 
johnnydrama said:
I don't think the AOA wants people to be able to switch from DO to MD. They reacted to the California DO "amnesty" in the 60's as an existential threat.

Too bad. It would be better for everyone.
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I don't think people should be able to switch degrees. That wouldn't make sense. If you earned a DO, it's a DO. If you earned a BA, it's a BA, not a BS. But I do think we might see some of the good DO schools switching to the MD degree, given that their students are more qualified than those in the low-tier MD schools (the ones I previously mentioned)...
 
johnnydrama said:
I don't think the AOA wants people to be able to switch from DO to MD. They reacted to the California DO "amnesty" in the 60's as an existential threat.

Too bad. It would be better for everyone.
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I don't think the LCME would be too happy about that......
 
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Santorum Surge said:
I don't think people should be able to switch degrees. That wouldn't make sense. If you earned a DO, it's a DO. If you earned a BA, it's a BA, not a BS. But I do think we might see some of the good DO schools switching to the MD degree, given that their students are more qualified than those in the low-tier MD schools (the ones I previously mentioned)...
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The point was to abolish the DO as a separate degree. At the moment, it's basically just an MD curriculum + voodoo. Everyone would be better served if OMM slept with the leeches.
 
I'm perfectly happy with DO alone, but that would be interesting to see "MD/DO" in the title because technically we are obtaining a physician education PLUS OMM.

It's like kind of/sort of having MD/PhD...LOL
 
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I don't really see the reason for this thread. The DO degree is more than 100 years old. Why change it?

Other doctoral degrees like Psy.D, O.D, D.O.T, D.P.T were all created just recently.
 
DPT is newer than DO? I had no idea. Do you know what was the equivalent before DPT came about?
 
OncoMD said:
DPT is newer than DO? I had no idea. Do you know what was the equivalent before DPT came about?
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USC had the first DPT program in 1992. KCOM (the first DO school) started in 1892. UPENN (Perelman School of Medicine) started in 1765.
 
I guess I'll voice my opinion.

As said above, the DO degree has been doing just fine the past many decades.

It'd be nice if the public was less ignorant of what a DO is and the type of training they receive, which is the same as an MD. I don't see this ignorance disappearing anytime soon though... MD is equivalent to saying "physician", to the point where a lot of people say "I need to see an MD" instead of "I need to see a doctor". Who knows... maybe things will get better in the future with all the new DO schools opening up.

I don't agree with any of the "DO/MD" title nonsense. Either call everyone an MD (simply because it's more popular and known) and completely get rid of the DO degree all together, or continue the separation of MD and DO.
 
Let us just change the MD to DA (Doctor of Allopathic Medicine) and all MD schools to Colleges/Schools of Allopathic Medicine. Then we can all live happily ever after :rolleyes:
 
Iliketoytles said:
I guess I'll voice my opinion.

As said above, the DO degree has been doing just fine the past many decades.

It'd be nice if the public was less ignorant of what a DO is and the type of training they receive, which is the same as an MD. I don't see this ignorance disappearing anytime soon though... MD is equivalent to saying "physician", to the point where a lot of people say "I need to see an MD" instead of "I need to see a doctor". Who knows... maybe things will get better in the future with all the new DO schools opening up.

I don't agree with any of the "DO/MD" title nonsense. Either call everyone an MD (simply because it's more popular and known) and completely get rid of the DO degree all together, or continue the separation of MD and DO.
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Yup. Also the american public is ignorant in more important things besides for the MD/DO title. Really, all of this is not the least important.
 
Iliketoytles said:
I don't agree with any of the "DO/MD" title nonsense. Either call everyone an MD (simply because it's more popular and known) and completely get rid of the DO degree all together, or continue the separation of MD and DO.
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Totally agree with this. And please, for the love of god, if you aren't happy becoming a DO, then do not apply to an osteopathic school. Between this thread and the one in the Osteopathic Medical Student forum, I feel like there are too many DO students who want the degree to be converted to an MD degree or a variation of it. In my opinion, these students obviously have some insecurities about the initials at the end of their name, which is unfortunate. Why can't you just be confident about your DO degree and accept it? The degree is not gonna change anytime soon. Period.

I haven't started school yet, but as of now, I'm ecstatic to be a DO. And as much crap as I hear about OMM, I'm excited to learn it. I reserve the right to change my opinion about all this over the next four years, and it's quite possible that I might. But for now, I'm gonna remain confident that my school will prepare me well to be a great, successful physician.

And in before someone tells me I drink the kool-aid
 
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Mbeas said:
Totally agree with this. And please, for the love of god, if you aren't happy becoming a DO, then do not apply to an osteopathic school. Between this thread and the one in the Osteopathic Medical Student forum, I feel like there are too many DO students who want the degree to be converted to an MD degree or a variation of it. In my opinion, these students obviously have some insecurities about the initials at the end of their name, which is unfortunate. Why can't you just be confident about your DO degree and accept it? The degree is not gonna change anytime soon. Period.

I haven't started school yet, but as of now, I'm ecstatic to be a DO. And as much crap as I hear about OMM, I'm excited to learn it. I reserve the right to change my opinion about all this over the next four years, and it's quite possible that I might. But for now, I'm gonna remain confident that my school will prepare me well to be a great, successful physician.

And in before someone tells me I drink the kool-aid
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hey man, there's nothing wrong with drinking the kool-aid. please see link below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxZASSqP0h4
 
donkeykong1 said:
USC had the first DPT program in 1992. KCOM (the first DO school) started in 1892. UPENN (Perelman School of Medicine) started in 1765.
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Most PT programs were MPT's before the gradual transition to DPT began.
 
I am also excited to be a DO. And no I am not some DO homer regardless of what people think. But I am excited because I will be a physician. Period. I could care less about the initials. If OMM works, great. But I will get to make a decision on my own. If I took everything I read on the internet as truth, I would be pretty stupid. When I approach patients in the hospital I will say, "Hi, I am Dr. Freaky Big Stock, what's the problem?" I will not be saying, "Hi, FrkyBgStok, DO. Is that acceptable to you or would you rather have an MD?"

There are people out there that say "I would never go to a fake doctor DO." There are also people that say "I would choose a DO everytime, they actually care." And when I tell people I am going to med school in the fall they say, "Oh really? Like nursing school or EMT school?" No like doctor school. "Oh really? That's cool. Did you decide on a specialty?" No I have four years before I need to decide but I like EM. "Four years to be an EM doc? That's a long time. Well good luck." The fact is that the public is largely stupid or they don't care. Some hospitals may be prejudice, some other doctors as well. But throughout the public, the only patients that will care are the premed ones.
 
FrkyBgStok said:
.. fact is that the public is largely stupid or they don't care. Some hospitals may be prejudice, some other doctors as well. But throughout the public, the only patients that will care are the premed ones.
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And just to expand on this...

I work at a hospital as a patient transporter at a large academic hospital (with an MD school) and I've been called doctor by many patients and nurses. The reality is that very few people care about the MD/DO thing outside of neurotic, insecure premeds who have no maturity or work experience in the real world. At my hospital, I've seen quite a few DO's (one is a cardiothoracic surgeon) and they are all treated with the same respect as the MD gods.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk
 
Mbeas said:
And just to expand on this...
I work at a hospital as a patient transporter at a large academic hospital (with an MD school) and I've been called doctor by many patients and nurses. The reality is that very few people care about the MD/DO thing outside of neurotic, insecure premeds who have no maturity or work experience in the real world.
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Indeed. In the real world, people are either too busy or too sick to give a rat's ass.
 
FrkyBgStok said:
I am also excited to be a DO. And no I am not some DO homer regardless of what people think. But I am excited because I will be a physician. Period. I could care less about the initials. If OMM works, great. But I will get to make a decision on my own. If I took everything I read on the internet as truth, I would be pretty stupid. When I approach patients in the hospital I will say, "Hi, I am Dr. Freaky Big Stock, what's the problem?" I will not be saying, "Hi, FrkyBgStok, DO. Is that acceptable to you or would you rather have an MD?"

There are people out there that say "I would never go to a fake doctor DO." There are also people that say "I would choose a DO everytime, they actually care." And when I tell people I am going to med school in the fall they say, "Oh really? Like nursing school or EMT school?" No like doctor school. "Oh really? That's cool. Did you decide on a specialty?" No I have four years before I need to decide but I like EM. "Four years to be an EM doc? That's a long time. Well good luck." The fact is that the public is largely stupid or they don't care. Some hospitals may be prejudice, some other doctors as well. But throughout the public, the only patients that will care are the premed ones.
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I love this! Every time I tell someone I'm going to med school they ask me if I want to be a nurse or a doctor or somebody that works in the hospital. The public really is clueless.
 
AgDoc84 said:
I love this! Every time I tell someone I'm going to med school they ask me if I want to be a nurse or a doctor or somebody that works in the hospital. The public really is clueless.
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People say this all the time, and it is true in a sense, but it comes off negatively. The public isn't dumb. It's just that they don't have the specific knowledge about medicine like we do. Some of us may not be informed about DDS vs. DMD, DVM vs. VMD, or other jobs for that matter. I don't know the educational requirements, entrance exams, application process, etc. for a lot of jobs out there, especially jobs outside of medicine. Does that make me clueless? Definitely not. It just means that I haven't entrenched myself in other fields like I have with medicine. They're just ignorant (this isn't such a negative word like so many people use it), and understandably so. Most of them can't be blamed just because they don't know the specific process used to become a doctor. Furthermore, they can't be blamed for not knowing what a DO is since the majority of people don't pay attention to this anyways + we are in the minority and concentrated in certain parts of the US.

I get impatient with people too when asked seemingly dumb questions all the time, but we are doing our profession a disservice by ignoring them. We need to go out and educate the public.
 
costales said:
Indeed. In the real world, people are either too busy or too sick to give a rat's ass.
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This has so much truth. It's just the reality, and I don't know how to explain it to some premeds. Hopefully, they catch on eventually.
 
When people ask me what I'm going to school for, I said "medicine". When people say what I want to be in the future, I say "a physician". When people ask me how long till I get my degree, I say "4 years". After that? "Residency". After that? "Fellowship" (depending on whatever specialty I choose).

Not once is MD or DO brought up, since every one of those questions above applies to both. So I think saying things like "I'm proud to be a DO" kind of perpetuates the problem by making us sound insecure about our degree... like we have something to prove. When we emphasize the degree, it makes it seem like there's something we shouldn't be proud of about being a DO, which just isn't true.

We should be saying we're "proud to be a physician" or "proud to be going to medical school".... since we are/will be med students and eventually physicians, just like our MD buddies.
 
Iliketoytles said:
When people ask me what I'm going to school for, I said "medicine". When people say what I want to be in the future, I say "a physician". When people ask me how long till I get my degree, I say "4 years". After that? "Residency". After that? "Fellowship" (depending on whatever specialty I choose).
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Agreed. I do the same thing.


Not once is MD or DO brought up, since every one of those questions above applies to both. So I think saying things like "I'm proud to be a DO" kind of perpetuates the problem by making us sound insecure about our degree... like we have something to prove. When we emphasize the degree, it makes it seem like there's something we shouldn't be proud of about being a DO, which just isn't true.
Click to expand...

I guess I need you to expand on this before I argue or disagree. Having pride in a degree or a job does not indicate an insecurity IMO. Au contraire, actually.
 
Mbeas said:
Totally agree with this. And please, for the love of god, if you aren't happy becoming a DO, then do not apply to an osteopathic school. Between this thread and the one in the Osteopathic Medical Student forum, I feel like there are too many DO students who want the degree to be converted to an MD degree or a variation of it. In my opinion, these students obviously have some insecurities about the initials at the end of their name, which is unfortunate. Why can't you just be confident about your DO degree and accept it? The degree is not gonna change anytime soon. Period.

I haven't started school yet, but as of now, I'm ecstatic to be a DO. And as much crap as I hear about OMM, I'm excited to learn it. I reserve the right to change my opinion about all this over the next four years, and it's quite possible that I might. But for now, I'm gonna remain confident that my school will prepare me well to be a great, successful physician.

And in before someone tells me I drink the kool-aid
Click to expand...

Good and thats the way you should be. Keep an open mind going in. Hopefully your OMM dept isnt like mine and doesnt ruin OMM for everyone almost instantly.

I dont think most DO students care about the initials part that much. We care about the fact that DO students do the same work in school, suffer through all the same bull****, and yet we arent going to match as well as MDs. We want all the "stuff" that comes along with the MD degree...not necessarily the initials. Has nothing to do with what people think of me...or worries about perceived bias outside of matching. I worked for many years before coming to med school and I personally never saw any of this "DO bias" crap that so many premeds discuss constantly. Obviously n=1 and things may be more prevalent in other areas of the country. We want better rotation sites, we want better opportunities, we want to be represented by a national organization that wants to advance us, rather than hold us back. Its a really unfortunate state of affairs.
 
Mbeas said:
I guess I need you to expand on this before I argue or disagree. Having pride in a degree or a job does not indicate an insecurity IMO. Au contraire, actually.
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Thanks for giving me the chance, haha. I agree that having pride in a job is not an insecurity at all. Quite the opposite, as you pointed out.

However, our job will be to be a physician. If you want to say "osteopathic physician" since that's technically what we will be, fine... but then we might as well call MD's "allopathic physicians". It just further divides the gap. OMM to me is not a good enough reason to emphasize this gap (just my opinion)... especially these days where the DO and MD philosophies overlap so much.

I feel a small part of where I'm coming from has to do with the way many people post new threads on these forums seeking advice. It's like they feel the need to spout out this "I have no problem being a DO!" nonsense to make themselves feel more secure about it. The truth is... most of us know that the practice and training of DO/MD are almost the exact same, so there's no reason to point it out... if that makes sense.

I don't want to bring it to religion, but if I may as an example... it's kind of like how people go around saying "God is so real!" when something good happens... as if they are still trying to convince themselves of it; otherwise, they wouldn't need to say it at all.

Like others were saying above, in the real world none of this DO/MD stuff means anything to patients (in most cases). They just want to stop feeling sick and be treated right. The fact this is SDN just hypes topic up a lot more than needed since we're technically all considered "doctors"... so the forums have to be divided to address each genre so people can get specific advice. But in the real world, I think all of us (MD/DO/etc.) end up blending together into one category called "physician".

That was a longer explanation than I thought... ha.
 
Iliketoytles said:
Thanks for giving me the chance, haha. I agree that having pride in a job is not an insecurity at all. Quite the opposite, as you pointed out.

However, our job will be to be a physician. If you want to say "osteopathic physician" since that's technically what we will be, fine... but then we might as well call MD's "allopathic physicians". It just further divides the gap. OMM to me is not a good enough reason to emphasize this gap (just my opinion)... especially these days where the DO and MD philosophies overlap so much.

I feel a small part of where I'm coming from has to do with the way many people post new threads on these forums seeking advice. It's like they feel the need to spout out this "I have no problem being a DO!" nonsense to make themselves feel more secure about it. The truth is... most of us know that the practice and training of DO/MD are almost the exact same, so there's no reason to point it out... if that makes sense.

I don't want to bring it to religion, but if I may as an example... it's kind of like how people go around saying "God is so real!" when something good happens... as if they are still trying to convince themselves of it; otherwise, they wouldn't need to say it at all.

Like others were saying above, in the real world none of this DO/MD stuff means anything to patients (in most cases). They just want to stop feeling sick and be treated right. The fact this is SDN just hypes topic up a lot more than needed since we're technically all considered "doctors"... so the forums have to be divided to address each genre so people can get specific advice. But in the real world, I think all of us (MD/DO/etc.) end up blending together into one category called "physician".

That was a longer explanation than I thought... ha.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

Cognitive dissonance is a discomfort caused by holding conflicting cognitions (e.g., ideas, beliefs, values, emotional reactions) simultaneously.

This may be part of the reason I actually enjoy physics now.
 
You guys should send a letter to DO schools requesting to offer ND/MD/DO combined degrees. It should be an interesting proposal.
 
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