NYU vs taking 1-2 years off

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DHallenbeck

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Hi all,

Recently, I've been accepted to NYU. I was originally ecstatic to have received this acceptance, seeing as how it was my first, and possibly only one for this cycle. But...

The only reason I applied...and the only reason I really considered attending was through the Army HPSP. My recruiter had let me know that I had been approved for the scholarship, and that they had one waiting for me. Little did I know, last week when I called him following my acceptance, he told me that the higher ranking oncologist in the army denied my waiver for the scholarship due to the fact that I had testicular cancer 2.5 years ago, and I needed to be in remission for 5 years...

So now I'm faced with a choice...either accept NYU with the huge burden of debt...or wait another year or two. I really would love to be in texas (my fiancee is from there, and my family plans to move down there in the near future), but I can't get Texas residency and actually be competitive to their schools until Fall 2015. I could maintain my NY residency and try for Buffalo and Stony Brook again next year...but who knows if any of these plans would work out.

Nevertheless, I am still leaning away from NYU. We're talking about a huge (100k/year, which after accumulating interest while in school will be like 500k when you graduate) loan to pay off. It would be near impossible to pay this size off in 10 years. Maybe in 20 years, but those 20 years would not be comfortable...to pay off 500k in 20 years thats still $4100 a month...which is about 50k a year. If you start out making 120k a year right out of graduation (which would be a good starting salary), you take home about 90k after taxes, -50k for your loans, leaves you with around a 40k salary to live on. This doesn't sound that appealing. Unless you got lucky, 120-150k a year are good numbers to expect right out of graduation. And you would be doing this for 20 years unless you find something better, or take more loans to start your own or buy your own practice.

NYU sounds like highway robbery. Well...the loans you need to take out are what actually kills you. 20 years to pay off $500k actually turns into 1 mil to pay off. 500k principal and 500k interest.

To take out loans to pay for a Texas school, 200k. To pay that off in 10 years, that would be $2,500 a month, and you'd only pay 95k in interest. That sounds like its worth the wait for me...

Do you all think I'm crazy? Or am I right in this assessment? Of course if I took the year or two off, I would continue to do service work, shadow dentists when I could, and take 1-2 classes a semester. Maybe also retake the DAT (But only if I have to since I'm happy with my scores) I have to deposit or withdraw from NYU by Saturday. Btw I am a fairly competitive applicant
oGPA (after graduation) will be 3.41-3.45
sGPA 3.52
AA 22
TS 21
PAT 20
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I dunno why people are trying to pay the minimum each month... My 3 uncles told me to pay it off as much as possible. U mention u want to pay it off comfortably but its not you're gonna be homeless.... 40k a year is fine and you're gonna have a second income (aka fiance)... People need to stop worry about debt so much as everyone is in the same boat as u are. I'm sorry u got denied of hpsp because of medical reasons but its really up to u to make the decision whether to wait or go nyu. 400k in debt is doable within 6-8 years and I recently spoke to a tufts graduate and said she is in track of paying it off within 4 years.... Just saying
 
aznboi89x said:
I dunno why people are trying to pay the minimum each month... My 3 uncles told me to pay it off as much as possible. U mention u want to pay it off comfortably but its not you're gonna be homeless.... 40k a year is fine and you're gonna have a second income (aka fiance)... People need to stop worry about debt so much as everyone is in the same boat as u are. I'm sorry u got denied of hpsp because of medical reasons but its really up to u to make the decision whether to wait or go nyu. 400k in debt is doable within 6-8 years and I recently spoke to a tufts graduate and said she is in track of paying it off within 4 years.... Just saying
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o rly? as a general dentist with a 400k loan? does she have a sugar daddy?
 
To OP, I noticed you have a 5-year remission period for medical reasons. Will you be able to re-apply for HPSP in 1-2 years or after 5 years?
 
aznboi89x said:
I dunno why people are trying to pay the minimum each month... My 3 uncles told me to pay it off as much as possible. U mention u want to pay it off comfortably but its not you're gonna be homeless.... 40k a year is fine and you're gonna have a second income (aka fiance)... People need to stop worry about debt so much as everyone is in the same boat as u are. I'm sorry u got denied of hpsp because of medical reasons but its really up to u to make the decision whether to wait or go nyu. 400k in debt is doable within 6-8 years and I recently spoke to a tufts graduate and said she is in track of paying it off within 4 years.... Just saying
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Ridiculous. Have you ever looked at a loan repayment calculator?? First of all...loans accrue interest while you're in school. 500k loans to pay off in 5 years at 7.9% APR (rate I found from two private lenders), you would end up having to spend about 10k a month!! Thats 120k a year! I don't know how you'd ever pay that off without a sugar daddy or being an Oral Surgeon or Ortho or some act of God. Even if you somehow escape with only 400k when you start making payments, to pay that off in 5 years is still 8k a month, or 96k a year. To pay off 400k in 10 years, you're looking at 4,800 a month, almost 55-60k a year. Get my point? If you try to pay it off quickly, you either can't do it, or you'll live in a shack. That is, if you can't find a job starting off that pays more than 150k year.
 
deez said:
To OP, I noticed you have a 5-year remission period for medical reasons. Will you be able to re-apply for HPSP in 1-2 years or after 5 years?
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Yeah, I'm at 2.5 years now..so I don't know if I'll be eligible in 2 years or in 3...it depends how picky they are with dates.
 
aznboi89x said:
I dunno why people are trying to pay the minimum each month... My 3 uncles told me to pay it off as much as possible. U mention u want to pay it off comfortably but its not you're gonna be homeless.... 40k a year is fine and you're gonna have a second income (aka fiance)... People need to stop worry about debt so much as everyone is in the same boat as u are. I'm sorry u got denied of hpsp because of medical reasons but its really up to u to make the decision whether to wait or go nyu. 400k in debt is doable within 6-8 years and I recently spoke to a tufts graduate and said she is in track of paying it off within 4 years.... Just saying
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$400K from Tufts in 4 years!?

I don't know how you could pay off $328K in 10-years. That's $76K per year just in loan repayment. Add on top of that taxes ($34K) on an average GP salary and you got $110K in yearly loss. Average GP salary of $120K - $110K = $10K per year. Then you have to consider if you're even fortunate enough to have a starting salary anywhere near $120K and have enough capital at the end of each month to qualify for a loan in the hopes of opening up your own practice.

$76K per year is just for the 10-year plan. If the person from Tufts wanted to pay of the loans in less than five years, that's like $76K x 2 = $152K per year just in loan repayment. I don't know how this person could pay off this much loans in such little time.

I would consider income-based repayment or NHSC.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=985145
 
I feel you man. That's a serious note to pay off. If you have full confidence that you will indeed move to Texas with your fiancé and will remain a competitive candidate there, AND gain residency, I would recommend that route. If not just for peace of mind alone.

Regarding NYU, I was originally going to go to Tufts, but I have someone paying living expenses for me. This was going to leave me with a loan balance of around 350-375k after interest accrual, which is a lot better than 500k. Could your fiancé pay the living expenses while in school to minimize the debt? Also don't live in the city if you go to NYU!!! I'd for sure live somewhere like Stamford, CT and take MetroNorth to Grand Central and then hop on the subway. It's about an hour commute but you could study on the train and save serious cash.

But you're right to seriously consider the cost. Keep it as cheap as possible.
 
i dunno man she be making that money traveling to NY (lives in connecticut) everyday being a GP. I dont know how she does it... She lives very frugally so I dont know how much that helps...
 
Your situation totally sucks, and I hate you're having to deal with this.

My advice, though, would be to wait. If I was to receive only one acceptance next year to an outrageously expensive school, I would decline and try again. Most of us are young and don't have a great concept of money, but man, I certainly realize that I don't want to be paying off a $400,000 debt. Become a resident of Texas and get in-state tuition to one of those schools. Work to strengthen your application throughout the year. Some people would consider this approach to be "playing with fire" since you're banking on getting accepted again. However, if you were previously accepted to a school and work diligently to better your app, it would only make sense that you would get in again--and likely to more schools! I wish you the best of luck.
 
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Depending on when you took the DAT, you probably will have to retake it for the cycle that you qualify for Texas residency. Another thing is you will need a full-time job or marriage to a Texas resident. On top of that, you better be doing something good to make yourself a good applicant.
 
Glimmer1991 said:
Your situation totally sucks, and I hate you're having to deal with this.

My advice, though, would be to wait. If I was to receive only one acceptance next year to an outrageously expensive school, I would decline and try again. Most of us are young and don't have a great concept of money, but man, I certainly realize that I don't want to be paying off a $400,000 debt. Become a resident of Texas and get in-state tuition to one of those schools. Work to strengthen your application throughout the year. Some people would consider this approach to be "playing with fire" since you're banking on getting accepted again. However, if you were previously accepted to a school and work diligently to better your app, it would only make sense that you would get in again--and likely to more schools! I wish you the best of luck.
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The playing with fire is the scary thought...but not nearly as scary as 400k+!! Thanks for your advice...I'll definitely have to make sure to keep my app as current and competitive as possible if I take this route!

timmytim said:
There is also IBR plan which will make 400k debt manageable.
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What is an IBR plan and how could I learn more about it? I'd be interested...but there is a difference between "more manageable" and still obscene amounts of money. More manageable probably means 3k a month, which is true, that is more manageable. But it would likely cost you more in the long run since you're paying the loans off slower, with a greater number of years.

r2thekesh said:
Depending on when you took the DAT, you probably will have to retake it for the cycle that you qualify for Texas residency. Another thing is you will need a full-time job or marriage to a Texas resident. On top of that, you better be doing something good to make yourself a good applicant.
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I'll be doing all of those things...haha. I'll be getting married, I have a couple different job opportunities that I can pursue if this is what I want, and I'll move down there this June. I'd be ready to go for the Fall 2015 cycle. The tough part would be to take additional coursework...since Texas won't consider you a resident unless you are less than a half time student, and maintain a job with 20+ hours a week for a full year. But I'd probably still try to squeeze in 1-2 courses a semester. I'm graduating from a liberal arts college, so I never had opportunities to take classes that would be offered at bigger schools, like Immunology, Pharmacology, etc.
 
aznboi89x said:
I dunno why people are trying to pay the minimum each month... My 3 uncles told me to pay it off as much as possible. U mention u want to pay it off comfortably but its not you're gonna be homeless.... 40k a year is fine and you're gonna have a second income (aka fiance)... People need to stop worry about debt so much as everyone is in the same boat as u are. I'm sorry u got denied of hpsp because of medical reasons but its really up to u to make the decision whether to wait or go nyu. 400k in debt is doable within 6-8 years and I recently spoke to a tufts graduate and said she is in track of paying it off within 4 years.... Just saying
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^^This is coming from someone who applied to 51 schools, so money may not be such a big factor for him. Debt is something very real for most people, and it is something that you really do have to worry about (unless you have someone paying your loans off).

If your calculations come out to almost a million after interest, it may be better to gain residency in Texas and try again.
 
DHallenbeck said:
What is an IBR plan and how could I learn more about it? I'd be interested...but there is a difference between "more manageable" and still obscene amounts of money. More manageable probably means 3k a month, which is true, that is more manageable. But it would likely cost you more in the long run since you're paying the loans off slower, with a greater number of years.
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Income Based Repayment for federal loans (somebody correct me if I'm wrong here). My understanding is that you pay a percentage of your salary each month, with adjustments for number of dependents. After 25 years the remainder of the loan is forgiven. So if your debt is extremely high and you're not able to make the regular payment then this may be an option.
I asked about this during an interview visit with a certain school. The financial aid person clearly didn't know much about it and gave me a blanket "that isn't a good idea" answer. It looks pretty attractive though if you go to an uber expensive school and don't plan to specialize.
http://www.ibrinfo.org/
 
What most people overlook with IBR is that the debt isn't forgiven. Whatever amount you have failed to pay counts towards your taxable income when it is "forgiven". If you have 100k left over on the loan, and you made 150k that year, the government says you made 250k that year and you have to pay taxes on that amount.

The other reason I dislike IBR is that for people with balances left over at the end, paying taxes on it does not cover the rest of the balance you owed. So where does it that money go? On the back of the taxpayers. The government lent you money for a super expensive school that you evidently could not afford (because you had to do IBR), and then you rely on the tax payers to bail you out at the end. My conservative mind has a big issue with that. If you sign on the dotted line, hold up your end of the deal. Don't ask your fellow citizens and uncle Sam to help you out.

I would never rely on IBR. But that's just me.
 
My only concern is how this is going to look in a few years when you reapply. They will be able to see that you've applied before, so I wonder if they might ask. I suppose there's no way they would know that you actually got into a dental school before, but what if there is? How would you respond to the interview question, "Why did you choose not to go to dental school after being accepted?"

I know that you can transfer to some schools, so that is also something to consider. I know someone that transferred to a state school from a private school. It depends on the school.
 
NDPitch said:
What most people overlook with IBR is that the debt isn't forgiven. Whatever amount you have failed to pay counts towards your taxable income when it is "forgiven". If you have 100k left over on the loan, and you made 150k that year, the government says you made 250k that year and you have to pay taxes on that amount.

The other reason I dislike IBR is that for people with balances left over at the end, paying taxes on it does not cover the rest of the balance you owed. So where does it that money go? On the back of the taxpayers. The government lent you money for a super expensive school that you evidently could not afford (because you had to do IBR), and then you rely on the tax payers to bail you out at the end. My conservative mind has a big issue with that. If you sign on the dotted line, hold up your end of the deal. Don't ask your fellow citizens and uncle Sam to help you out.

I would never rely on IBR. But that's just me.
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From the IBRinfo.org website:

"Congressman Sandy Levin (D-MI) is leading a bipartisan effort to ensure that borrowers who qualify for loan forgiveness through IBR (and Income Contingent Repayment) get the same treatment. Responsible borrowers with modest incomes shouldn't have to pay potentially crippling taxes on forgiven student loans. We are hopeful that this issue will be resolved before any borrowers qualify for forgiveness through IBR. We'll continue to work on this issue and keep you informed. "

So it looks like that is something that could change, but for now you'll pay taxes on it, you're right.
 
NDPitch said:
What most people overlook with IBR is that the debt isn't forgiven. Whatever amount you have failed to pay counts towards your taxable income when it is "forgiven". If you have 100k left over on the loan, and you made 150k that year, the government says you made 250k that year and you have to pay taxes on that amount.
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Still paying ~$0.38 on the marginal dollar isn't bad.

NDPitch said:
The other reason I dislike IBR is that for people with balances left over at the end, paying taxes on it does not cover the rest of the balance you owed. So where does it that money go? On the back of the taxpayers. The government lent you money for a super expensive school that you evidently could not afford (because you had to do IBR), and then you rely on the tax payers to bail you out at the end. My conservative mind has a big issue with that. If you sign on the dotted line, hold up your end of the deal. Don't ask your fellow citizens and uncle Sam to help you out.

I would never rely on IBR. But that's just me.
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The libertarian in me agrees with you (although I think it is likely that all the principal will be recovered over the 25 years of repayment and the taxpayer will only lose out on interest). The realist in me disagrees, there are tons of government programs to incentivise all sorts of behavior and I don't see how this is any different than say the home interest deduction or the dependent deduction.
 
predent12 said:
My only concern is how this is going to look in a few years when you reapply. They will be able to see that you've applied before, so I wonder if they might ask. I suppose there's no way they would know that you actually got into a dental school before, but what if there is? How would you respond to the interview question, "Why did you choose not to go to dental school after being accepted?"

I know that you can transfer to some schools, so that is also something to consider. I know someone that transferred to a state school from a private school. It depends on the school.
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I should hope that no school would question me, or look less favorably upon me if I told them I wasn't ready to take on that much debt at that time. At least as long as I was interviewing at a cheaper school...you're right, schools like Midwestern or Western or Tufts that all cost comparable would probably look less favorably since I already turned down NYU. But...since I'm also going to be getting married, I can say that it just wasn't the right time for me, and I needed to take a year or two off to work and settle down, etc.
 
After looking at the website, correct me if I'm wrong, the IBR is only available (only takes into acount) loan debt from federal loans, and NOT from private lenders...is that right?
 
DHallenbeck said:
I should hope that no school would question me, or look less favorably upon me if I told them I wasn't ready to take on that much debt at that time. At least as long as I was interviewing at a cheaper school...you're right, schools like Midwestern or Western or Tufts that all cost comparable would probably look less favorably since I already turned down NYU. But...since I'm also going to be getting married, I can say that it just wasn't the right time for me, and I needed to take a year or two off to work and settle down, etc.
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If you don't want to take on the debt now from nyu, why even apply to Midwestern, western, tufts unless you waited to qualify for hpsp. That would just be wasting a year and then taking on the same debt (probably more due to tuition hikes) from a different private school. So those schools' opinions wouldn't really matter anyway
 
timbo31490 said:
If you don't want to take on the debt now from nyu, why even apply to Midwestern, western, tufts unless you waited to qualify for hpsp. That would just be wasting a year and then taking on the same debt (probably more due to tuition hikes) from a different private school. So those schools' opinions wouldn't really matter anyway
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I was just using those schools as an example. I wouldn't want to attend any of those either due to the same price tags.

But when I do apply again, I will apply to a few of these schools, since they are generally fairly easier to get into, and in 2 years when I apply, if I don't get in to a cheaper school, I may decide to then bite the bullet....but not now.
 
DHallenbeck said:
I was just using those schools as an example. I wouldn't want to attend any of those either due to the same price tags.

But when I do apply again, I will apply to a few of these schools, since they are generally fairly easier to get into, and in 2 years when I apply, if I don't get in to a cheaper school, I may decide to then bite the bullet....but not now.
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Good point and sorry about your unfortunate situation. I'm one of those who is biting the bullet and attending a pricy school next year, but it was also one of my top choices. Hopefully, I won't regret it.
 
preDENT1210 said:
o rly? as a general dentist with a 400k loan? does she have a sugar daddy?
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My wife and I saved $35,000 in 20 months with a cumulative annual income of only $60,000. Keep in mind that more of our earnings had to go to living expenses than a family which earns more than us. Extrapolate that out 8 years and even on our relatively low combined income we could have paid off ~$170,000. I believe that had we made double what we did we could easily have put away $100,000 in that same period, if not more. So yes, it seems very possible to me.

NDPitch said:
The other reason I dislike IBR is that for people with balances left over at the end, paying taxes on it does not cover the rest of the balance you owed. So where does it that money go? On the back of the taxpayers. The government lent you money for a super expensive school that you evidently could not afford (because you had to do IBR), and then you rely on the tax payers to bail you out at the end. My conservative mind has a big issue with that. If you sign on the dotted line, hold up your end of the deal. Don't ask your fellow citizens and uncle Sam to help you out.
Click to expand...

How does one justify skyrocketing tuition at these super expensive schools? At some point we risk returning to a society where only the wealthy can afford to send their children to college. This is exactly what programs like IBR are intended to prevent. Liberal or conservative, lack of social mobility due to prohibitively expensive educational / training costs does not bode well for the future of any nation.

Not to spark a political debate in this thread or anything, just adding an alternative viewpoint to yours NDPitch. A democratic government and free market economy will necessarily be at odds from time to time.
 
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That tuition is pretty scary but at the same time I wouldn't want to risk an acceptance for having to take the DAT again and reapplying. Getting into your Texas school may not happen, and then you will regret not going when you could have.
 
Cello said:
My wife and I saved $35,000 in 20 months with a cumulative annual income of only $60,000. Keep in mind that more of our earnings had to go to living expenses than a family which earns more than us. Extrapolate that out 8 years and even on our relatively low combined income we could have paid off ~$170,000. I believe that had we made double what we did we could easily have put away $100,000 in that same period, if not more. So yes, it seems very possible to me.
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To pay off 400k in 8 years @ 7.9% is about $5,600 a month, which = about $67,000 a year. Maybe its possible, but it is extreme. And that is 10 years of that. I'd rather wait 2 now if I have to and not have to worry about this garbage.

Msmouth said:
That tuition is pretty scary but at the same time I wouldn't want to risk an acceptance for having to take the DAT again and reapplying. Getting into your Texas school may not happen, and then you will regret not going when you could have.
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Yeah....I know. It's a risk. But one that I'm willing to take. And I think it will benefit me so much in the future. I have high confidence in myself to be able to be accepted later down the road.
 
Cello said:
My wife and I saved $35,000 in 20 months with a cumulative annual income of only $60,000. Keep in mind that more of our earnings had to go to living expenses than a family which earns more than us. Extrapolate that out 8 years and even on our relatively low combined income we could have paid off ~$170,000. I believe that had we made double what we did we could easily have put away $100,000 in that same period, if not more. So yes, it seems very possible to me.
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Let's assume that you weren't saving, and that you were putting all of this money towards loans, so about $1750 a month. Except, the monthly payment for one of these huge 400k balances is more than that, so that amount wouldn't cover the payment. This is kind of irrelevant though, because obviously a dentist would make more than $60,000. What is relevant, though, is that it seems you forgot about interest. Sure, after 8 years, you would have PAID about 170 grand, but your principle balance only would have decreased by about half that. The interest on these loans is really high. For a large part of the loan period, your payments are covering primarily interest.

Go to this website and input the following numbers...

http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/college-planning/loan-calculator.aspx

Loan - 400k (this is likely to be even higher because of capitalized interest)
Term - 25 years (maximum period)
Rate - 7.4% (weighted average of 6.8 and 7.9 for direct and gradPLUS, respectively)

Click calculate to generate the monthly payment (about 3 grand).

Then play with the additional amounts per month to see how much faster you can pay it off, and click Show/Recalculate amortization.

You'll see that it would take just short of 10 grand a month to pay off a 400k loan in 4 years, which equates to making 120k a year AFTER taxes, and paying every dollar from your paycheck towards your loans. New grads do not make 120 grand after taxes and benefits (that would be a salary of about 175-180 grand a year).

I don't see there being any way to pay off a fully financed private school education in 4 years. The math doesn't add up, and new grads just don't make enough money to do so. They'd have to have a well off significant other or spouse, and the majority of earnings would have to be pumped into the loan while living in a shack and eating ramen.



Cello said:
How does one justify skyrocketing tuition at these super expensive schools?
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Easy. You don't! It's crazy. I love the old saying - if you can't pay, don't play. But as long as students keep lining up and signing on the dotted line, tuition will keep heading for the sky.

Cello said:
At some point we risk returning to a society where only the wealthy can afford to send their children to college. This is exactly what programs like IBR are intended to prevent. Liberal or conservative, lack of social mobility due to prohibitively expensive educational / training costs does not bode well for the future of any nation.

Not to spark a political debate in this thread or anything, just adding an alternative viewpoint to yours NDPitch. A democratic government and free market economy will necessarily be at odds from time to time.
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My strong opinion is that the only reason these schools charge so much money, is because there is an infinite amount of money that gets lent out to students without a second thought from the government. I think programs like IBR are only worsening this issue. In order for these tuition rates to fall, we need to go through a really rough time, where students suddenly don't have a way to pay for a dental education that will cost them more than 400 thousand dollars. In other words, the bubble needs to burst.

Anyway, I feel like sometimes my posts regarding dental school finances can sound mean. If you think that's the case here, that's not my intent. Just my strong beliefs.

:thumbup:
 
2 years of lost income is likely a significant figure which you shouldn't simply ignore. 2 years @ $120,000 is $240,000 of income you'll lose provided you do nothing else in that time. I don't know if you have a good job or not, but that might be something to consider.

@NDPitch, I didn't forget about interest, but I also didn't include the fact that OP's fiancee will be a source of potential income, so I figured it would likely even out. And you don't sound mean, just smart. ;)
 
DHallenbeck said:
T

Yeah....I know. It's a risk. But one that I'm willing to take. And I think it will benefit me so much in the future. I have high confidence in myself to be able to be accepted later down the road.
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That is all that matters. If you feel that this much debt is too much for you now, especially with all these big changes coming up in your life, then my advice is to wait.
 
Cello said:
2 years of lost income is likely a significant figure which you shouldn't simply ignore. 2 years @ $120,000 is $240,000 of income you'll lose provided you do nothing else in that time. I don't know if you have a good job or not, but that might be something to consider.
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The lost income argument doesn't hold water for a few reasons:

With a larger loan you have way less cash flow in your years out of d-school. Way less cash flow means you are socking way less money into retirement in your early years when that money has the most time to grow.

Larger debt also means more years until you can feasibly buy a practice which means fewer years at your peak earning potential.

It isn't nearly as simple as just talking about years of lost wages. Your debt load will be far more significant to your long term financial health than people realize. That's partly why I never understand the argument for paying a fortune to attend U of P just to get 1 more year of earning power.



To the OP: I am sorry you aren't able to do the HPSP. In light of your circumstances, I would sit out until you get into a more reasonably priced school. No way I would go to a school with the price tag of NYU when your stats are good and will get you much better options moving forward. Even sitting out just 1 year and reapplying to the cheapest OOS options would be tempting to me...anything but paying NYU level pricing on loans.
 
why is everyone so fixated on paying back in 10 yrs?
400k debt is manageable
just live within your means and don't expect to drive a porsche in your 30s and work only 20hrs a week.

i know plenty of dentists who graduated in the past ten yrs who paid off their debt (ranging 250k-350k) already.
 
Your not guaranteed anything, who knows maybe they deny the scholarship again, or maybe you don't get in again, the admissions process is unpredictable. I don't want to be a downer but your already accepted, take it. That's just my opinion.
 
sacapuntas said:
The lost income argument doesn't hold water for a few reasons:

With a larger loan you have way less cash flow in your years out of d-school. Way less cash flow means you are socking way less money into retirement in your early years when that money has the most time to grow.

Larger debt also means more years until you can feasibly buy a practice which means fewer years at your peak earning potential.

It isn't nearly as simple as just talking about years of lost wages. Your debt load will be far more significant to your long term financial health than people realize. That's partly why I never understand the argument for paying a fortune to attend U of P just to get 1 more year of earning power.

To the OP: I am sorry you aren't able to do the HPSP. In light of your circumstances, I would sit out until you get into a more reasonably priced school. No way I would go to a school with the price tag of NYU when your stats are good and will get you much better options moving forward. Even sitting out just 1 year and reapplying to the cheapest OOS options would be tempting to me...anything but paying NYU level pricing on loans.
Click to expand...

Completely agree. In addition, $500k in debt is $500k. $120k in earning power is NOT $120k. When you take out taxes, you'll be lucky to keep $80k of that. When you hope to buy a car, house, have kids, etc. when you're getting out of dental school remember how hard its going to be to realistically put down just the minimum payments on that loan, let alone pay back more than your base payments to try and pay it off early. $4000 a month payments for 15 years are going to be tough unless your spouse has a nice second income or you don't mind living like a peasant for a while.
 
DHallenbeck said:
Hi all,

Recently, I've been accepted to NYU. I was originally ecstatic to have received this acceptance, seeing as how it was my first, and possibly only one for this cycle. But...

The only reason I applied...and the only reason I really considered attending was through the Army HPSP. My recruiter had let me know that I had been approved for the scholarship, and that they had one waiting for me. Little did I know, last week when I called him following my acceptance, he told me that the higher ranking oncologist in the army denied my waiver for the scholarship due to the fact that I had testicular cancer 2.5 years ago, and I needed to be in remission for 5 years...

So now I'm faced with a choice...either accept NYU with the huge burden of debt...or wait another year or two. I really would love to be in texas (my fiancee is from there, and my family plans to move down there in the near future), but I can't get Texas residency and actually be competitive to their schools until Fall 2015. I could maintain my NY residency and try for Buffalo and Stony Brook again next year...but who knows if any of these plans would work out.

Nevertheless, I am still leaning away from NYU. We're talking about a huge (100k/year, which after accumulating interest while in school will be like 500k when you graduate) loan to pay off. It would be near impossible to pay this size off in 10 years. Maybe in 20 years, but those 20 years would not be comfortable...to pay off 500k in 20 years thats still $4100 a month...which is about 50k a year. If you start out making 120k a year right out of graduation (which would be a good starting salary), you take home about 90k after taxes, -50k for your loans, leaves you with around a 40k salary to live on. This doesn't sound that appealing. Unless you got lucky, 120-150k a year are good numbers to expect right out of graduation. And you would be doing this for 20 years unless you find something better, or take more loans to start your own or buy your own practice.

NYU sounds like highway robbery. Well...the loans you need to take out are what actually kills you. 20 years to pay off $500k actually turns into 1 mil to pay off. 500k principal and 500k interest.

To take out loans to pay for a Texas school, 200k. To pay that off in 10 years, that would be $2,500 a month, and you'd only pay 95k in interest. That sounds like its worth the wait for me...

Do you all think I'm crazy? Or am I right in this assessment? Of course if I took the year or two off, I would continue to do service work, shadow dentists when I could, and take 1-2 classes a semester. Maybe also retake the DAT (But only if I have to since I'm happy with my scores) I have to deposit or withdraw from NYU by Saturday. Btw I am a fairly competitive applicant
oGPA (after graduation) will be 3.41-3.45
sGPA 3.52
AA 22
TS 21
PAT 20
Click to expand...



It sounds like you are not 100% for dentistry.

Give up your seat and let another predental student dreams come true.
 
tooth knockn said:
It sounds like you are not 100% for dentistry.

Give up your seat and let another predental student dreams come true.
Click to expand...

HA! What if I was looking to buy a house or apartment, and I decided I didn't want to buy anything in NYC because it is so expensive? Would you say I'm not 100% for buying a place to live? Fact is, I could get just as much and as nice a place or more if I waited and bought somewhere else, and it would be worlds cheaper. This is the mindset that I'm using in this decision.

I'm completely for dentistry as my career, and have been for a very long time.

diene said:
:confused: Being reasonable about the amount of debt you take makes you less interested in dentistry? :O

To the OP, what you are doing requires a lot of patience and uncertainty. Most people would not be able to do it, but kudos for thinking reasonably. I wish you the best of luck!
Click to expand...

Exactly...lol. Thanks!!
 
aznboi89x said:
I dunno why people are trying to pay the minimum each month... My 3 uncles told me to pay it off as much as possible. U mention u want to pay it off comfortably but its not you're gonna be homeless.... 40k a year is fine and you're gonna have a second income (aka fiance)... People need to stop worry about debt so much as everyone is in the same boat as u are. I'm sorry u got denied of hpsp because of medical reasons but its really up to u to make the decision whether to wait or go nyu. 400k in debt is doable within 6-8 years and I recently spoke to a tufts graduate and said she is in track of paying it off within 4 years.... Just saying
Click to expand...

That's ridiculous. If you had some common sense, you would probably realize she definitely had either her living expenses or most likely, ALL of her expenses aside from tuition already covered. Therefore, you're just providing false hope for the OP. I'm most likely attending Tufts next year and I'm fortunate to be in the same position, taking out 260k in loans at most (accounting for tuition hikes throughout the next four years, etc.). Going through all the financial scenarios, even repaying 260k with interest within 4 years is extremely difficult. Repaying 500k debt (after interested accrued during dschool) plus further interest within 4 years is 100% impossible, mathematically, even with a starting salary of 120k a year for four years. Am I missing something? Even if you own a practice two years out, it's hard to do. This is all assuming you can even find a decent associate position when you graduate. According to Dental Town, I've heard that dentists are reluctant to hire associates without at least a one year GPR. That's another year of interest accrued on your already enormous debt. Obviously, they still do but I would take that into consideration.


To the OP, like you said, you realistically won't be able to pay off your debt in 10 years if you end up going to NYU. Half a million dollars of debt PLUS the outrageous interest is nuts. You obviously know this. When did you apply? Is there a reason you only have one acceptance? Is something lacking in your application? If you applied in early June and still only got one acceptance, maybe you should attend NYU. There's no guarantee that you'll get accepted next year or the year after that unless it's another expensive private school (which tend to be easier to get into). If you applied late and that's the reason you probably only have 1 acceptance, or your application's lacking in a certain area, then maybe wait until next year and apply much earlier with an improved application. It's good that you're definitely aware and cautious of your future, financially speaking. Also, whoever posted that you're not 100% into dentistry because you're actually being financially smart and looking at all of your options, is straight up ridiculous.

Quick question... it seems like you're set on taking out private loans as opposed to federal loans? From what I've heard from several people, it's better to take out federal loans since their interest rates are actually static whereas interest rates from private lenders tend to fluctuate. Does anyone have more detail on this?
 
iDentastic said:
To the OP, like you said, you realistically won't be able to pay off your debt in 10 years if you end up going to NYU. Half a million dollars of debt PLUS the outrageous interest is nuts. You obviously know this. When did you apply? Is there a reason you only have one acceptance? Is something lacking in your application? If you applied in early June and still only got one acceptance, maybe you should attend NYU. There's no guarantee that you'll get accepted next year or the year after that unless it's another expensive private school (which tend to be easier to get into). If you applied late and that's the reason you probably only have 1 acceptance, or your application's lacking in a certain area, then maybe wait until next year and apply much earlier with an improved application. It's good that you're definitely aware and cautious of your future, financially speaking. Also, whoever posted that you're not 100% into dentistry because you're actually being financially smart and looking at all of your options, is straight up ridiculous.

Quick question... it seems like you're set on taking out private loans as opposed to federal loans? From what I've heard from several people, it's better to take out federal loans since their interest rates are actually static whereas interest rates from private lenders tend to fluctuate. Does anyone have more detail on this?
Click to expand...

My application was completed and received by my schools by August 17th. I realize that this was a factor as to why the only 1 acceptance this time around, as well as the fact that I only applied to 5 schools.

Also! When my application was completed, I had a oGPA of 3.27. When I submitted the academic update, I had boosted my oGPA to 3.36. By the time I graduate this May, my oGPA will be >3.4. The main reason for this is my freshman year I had a oGPA of 2.68. I've gotten over a 3.5 GPA for every semester since freshman year.

Just by virtue of the fact that my oGPA will be over a 3.4 rather than the 3.27 that I had when I initially applied, I believe that this alone already makes me more competitive for the 2014 and 2015 cycles. If I take a few more post-bacc classes (that I haven't taken in my undergrad) like molecular biology, pharmacology, immunology, histology, etc, I think I will be a very competitive applicant. I may need to re-take the DAT, but I know I can do just as well or better.

From what I can gather, you can't cover the full cost of NYU or other private schools by using federal loans only. It seems that the most you can take out with the federal loans is around 40k. (This is the subsidized and unsubsidized, not including the PLUS loans). The PLUS loans seem to have the same interest rate as other private loans. Oh, and private loans you can either take out at a "static" or fixed rate, or you can take them out at a variable rate. Your choice.
 
"There is a crisis in dentistry today…graduating students will have it much more difficult than I. The cost of education is impacting the new professional. Government intervention is pervasive. I "have" lived through the golden age of dentistry. Nevertheless, there is always room at the top. There is no room at the bottom for unethical and unscrupulous practitioners."

http://www.asdablog.com/asda-alum-shares-experience-with-students-at-free-clinic/

Dr. Robert Allen
 
DHallenbeck said:
My application was completed and received by my schools by August 17th. I realize that this was a factor as to why the only 1 acceptance this time around, as well as the fact that I only applied to 5 schools.

Also! When my application was completed, I had a oGPA of 3.27. When I submitted the academic update, I had boosted my oGPA to 3.36. By the time I graduate this May, my oGPA will be >3.4. The main reason for this is my freshman year I had a oGPA of 2.68. I've gotten over a 3.5 GPA for every semester since freshman year.

Just by virtue of the fact that my oGPA will be over a 3.4 rather than the 3.27 that I had when I initially applied, I believe that this alone already makes me more competitive for the 2014 and 2015 cycles. If I take a few more post-bacc classes (that I haven't taken in my undergrad) like molecular biology, pharmacology, immunology, histology, etc, I think I will be a very competitive applicant. I may need to re-take the DAT, but I know I can do just as well or better.

From what I can gather, you can't cover the full cost of NYU or other private schools by using federal loans only. It seems that the most you can take out with the federal loans is around 40k. (This is the subsidized and unsubsidized, not including the PLUS loans). The PLUS loans seem to have the same interest rate as other private loans. Oh, and private loans you can either take out at a "static" or fixed rate, or you can take them out at a variable rate. Your choice.
Click to expand...

But with federal loans you, your tax bracket is considered only for gross income minus loan repayments and you have very flexible loan repayment schedules compared to private loans.
 
If you're invited to the party, come.

Go to NYU. No time for re-application games.
 
So what's the decision you have come to, DHallenbeck?
 
the application cycles are getting more and more competitive. with that said, go to NYU.

nothing in life is guaranteed
 
preDENT1210 said:
the application cycles are getting more and more competitive. with that said, go to NYU.

nothing in life is guaranteed
Click to expand...

Well, that massive debt is guaranteed, along with the fact that it will take me 20 years to pay it off.

I've decided to turn down my acceptance. If Buffalo accepts me off the waitlist this cycle, I will accept and go there in a heartbeat!! If not, I will take my chances, work to improve my app, and look to the future.

And I would like to hear from someone who turned down an acceptance, and was NOT accepted the following year or years. I've looked through the forum and I don't think I've seen a post or thread from anyone who said that they turned down an acceptance, and was not admitted anywhere in the following cycles. If I heard of a few people, with comparable stats, and this happened within the past couple of years, maybe I would reconsider. But it seems like most of this is speculation...and I'd rather not accept 400-500k debt out of fear. I'll live with hope and optimism, (and if I'm lucky, a much less stressful and more debt free future!) :luck:
 
NDPitch said:
Let's assume that you weren't saving, and that you were putting all of this money towards loans, so about $1750 a month. Except, the monthly payment for one of these huge 400k balances is more than that, so that amount wouldn't cover the payment. This is kind of irrelevant though, because obviously a dentist would make more than $60,000. What is relevant, though, is that it seems you forgot about interest. Sure, after 8 years, you would have PAID about 170 grand, but your principle balance only would have decreased by about half that. The interest on these loans is really high. For a large part of the loan period, your payments are covering primarily interest.

Go to this website and input the following numbers...

http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/college-planning/loan-calculator.aspx

Loan - 400k (this is likely to be even higher because of capitalized interest)
Term - 25 years (maximum period)
Rate - 7.4% (weighted average of 6.8 and 7.9 for direct and gradPLUS, respectively)

Click calculate to generate the monthly payment (about 3 grand).

Then play with the additional amounts per month to see how much faster you can pay it off, and click Show/Recalculate amortization.

You'll see that it would take just short of 10 grand a month to pay off a 400k loan in 4 years, which equates to making 120k a year AFTER taxes, and paying every dollar from your paycheck towards your loans. New grads do not make 120 grand after taxes and benefits (that would be a salary of about 175-180 grand a year).

I don't see there being any way to pay off a fully financed private school education in 4 years. The math doesn't add up, and new grads just don't make enough money to do so. They'd have to have a well off significant other or spouse, and the majority of earnings would have to be pumped into the loan while living in a shack and eating ramen.





Easy. You don't! It's crazy. I love the old saying - if you can't pay, don't play. But as long as students keep lining up and signing on the dotted line, tuition will keep heading for the sky.



My strong opinion is that the only reason these schools charge so much money, is because there is an infinite amount of money that gets lent out to students without a second thought from the government. I think programs like IBR are only worsening this issue. In order for these tuition rates to fall, we need to go through a really rough time, where students suddenly don't have a way to pay for a dental education that will cost them more than 400 thousand dollars. In other words, the bubble needs to burst.

Anyway, I feel like sometimes my posts regarding dental school finances can sound mean. If you think that's the case here, that's not my intent. Just my strong beliefs.

:thumbup:
Click to expand...


ND,

You are exactly right. 100%. This is just like the stock market phenomenon of irrational exuberance.

:cool:
 
DHallenbeck said:
Hi all,

Recently, I've been accepted to NYU. I was originally ecstatic to have received this acceptance, seeing as how it was my first, and possibly only one for this cycle. But...

The only reason I applied...and the only reason I really considered attending was through the Army HPSP. My recruiter had let me know that I had been approved for the scholarship, and that they had one waiting for me. Little did I know, last week when I called him following my acceptance, he told me that the higher ranking oncologist in the army denied my waiver for the scholarship due to the fact that I had testicular cancer 2.5 years ago, and I needed to be in remission for 5 years...

So now I'm faced with a choice...either accept NYU with the huge burden of debt...or wait another year or two. I really would love to be in texas (my fiancee is from there, and my family plans to move down there in the near future), but I can't get Texas residency and actually be competitive to their schools until Fall 2015. I could maintain my NY residency and try for Buffalo and Stony Brook again next year...but who knows if any of these plans would work out.

Nevertheless, I am still leaning away from NYU. We're talking about a huge (100k/year, which after accumulating interest while in school will be like 500k when you graduate) loan to pay off. It would be near impossible to pay this size off in 10 years. Maybe in 20 years, but those 20 years would not be comfortable...to pay off 500k in 20 years thats still $4100 a month...which is about 50k a year. If you start out making 120k a year right out of graduation (which would be a good starting salary), you take home about 90k after taxes, -50k for your loans, leaves you with around a 40k salary to live on. This doesn't sound that appealing. Unless you got lucky, 120-150k a year are good numbers to expect right out of graduation. And you would be doing this for 20 years unless you find something better, or take more loans to start your own or buy your own practice.

NYU sounds like highway robbery. Well...the loans you need to take out are what actually kills you. 20 years to pay off $500k actually turns into 1 mil to pay off. 500k principal and 500k interest.

To take out loans to pay for a Texas school, 200k. To pay that off in 10 years, that would be $2,500 a month, and you'd only pay 95k in interest. That sounds like its worth the wait for me...

Do you all think I'm crazy? Or am I right in this assessment? Of course if I took the year or two off, I would continue to do service work, shadow dentists when I could, and take 1-2 classes a semester. Maybe also retake the DAT (But only if I have to since I'm happy with my scores) I have to deposit or withdraw from NYU by Saturday. Btw I am a fairly competitive applicant
oGPA (after graduation) will be 3.41-3.45
sGPA 3.52
AA 22
TS 21
PAT 20
Click to expand...

OP,

I believe NYU has a deferral policy. Why don't you just defer for a year while re-applying?


edit: never mind; just saw that you declined. Oh well. Good luck re-applying. Have your app in June 1 and I'm sure you will get a spot somewhere. Also, apply to more than 5 schools. That's not enough. g'luck.
 
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