ADCOMS: Semi-Solicited Advice [Part II]

Adcoms,

Thanks for taking your time to help us pre-med'ers in our time of crisis!

I started as a traditional applicant, applying at 20 yrs old after graduating with my BS from a California State University. Due to graduating with pre-med and major courses in 10 quarters (ie: 22+ units/quarter), my grades were 3.45 overall and 3.1 science (with C's in chemistry). I initially applied to DO programs and was waitlisted. I continued onto grad school completing a Master's about a year later, with a GPA of 3.8. I reapplied DO and was again waitlisted. I took a few years off of applying and focused on my career. In the time off (5 yrs since I graduated with my BS), I have worked in an Emergency Department for 4.5 years as an EMT and have worked full time in a peace officer status for 3 years. I have also been teaching at both university and community college levels for the past year and a half. My clinical experience is plentiful and I spend over 1000 hours/year volunteering.

Since it's been 5 yrs since I've been in undergrad, my undergrad stopped having a pre-medical committee. Now, they just compile letters for your and send out a form letter in a pretty packet to the schools. I'm disturbed by this, but it's the new policy apparently. I have a pre-med committee letter from 2002, but should that be included with my current LOR's? I have a feeling that it's just too old and outdated, but it's the only true pre-medical committee letter I'm going to get.

My personal statement notes my low initial GPA but mostly focuses on my recent accomplishments and teaching. I'm retaking the MCAT next month (and am very excited about it being computerized) - and hope to score in the low 30's. I'm not sure, in my application, what to focus on though - since I'm not able to list everything. Is the clinical time or volunteering more important to focus on?

Also, I am applying MD only this year. Will my applications for DO in the past come back to haunt me in the process? Will the non-trad status (with multiple jobs in between) hurt or help? I forgot how frustrating this process was...

Thank you for your time.

Hi Lizzy:

Let me first thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.

First, a little of my background:
I started in a Community College with engineering major and then transferred to a top school with a GPA around 4.0. In middle of the way, I decided to pursue medicine and so started to shadow a physician and took Bio and O-chem courses besides my heavy engineering classes. I graduated from that school with a 3.4 GPA. After I graduated I also took a molecular bio and genetics class + a biochemistry class at a local CC.
My overall GPA is 3.65 and BCPM GPA is 3.86.
I took the MCAT twice. The first time I did really bad and got 22M(P=10, V=6, B=6). The second time I got 31L(P=11, V=9, B=11).
To have more clinical exposure, I started volunteering at a hospital from last April. I got also involved in a clinical research at that hospital and volunteer there as a research assistant for about 15 hrs/week. (I still continue both of these activities)
This year I applied to about 40 schools but very very late in the cycle. My primary got processed in mid-October and many of my secondaries were completed in the last days.
So not surprisingly, I only got one interview, which resulted in a waitlist.

Now for this time, I want to have the best possible application. I talked to the some of these schools and was told that I had a strong application and it was the lateness of my application that hurt me.
Obviously this time, I will submit my application in the first few days of the cycle.
I appreciate it if you can answer any of my questions:

1) I am pretty happy with my PS, my motivation is still the same and other than the research (which I will add to my PS) I don’t have much to change about it. How important is it to change my Personal Statement? Do I need to mention anything about the reapplication? Do medical schools compare the new application with the old one (both primary and secondary)?

2) My last name recently changed. I know that both of my names show up in my file and I think that my AMCAS# does not change. Nevertheless, I can ask some of the LOR writers to change their LOR but it’s hard to change all of them. Do I need to get a new set of LOR or I can still use the LOR’s written in October with my old last name?

3) Since I transferred to my four-year university, I had to take math, physics, and G-chemistry courses in the CC that I started. Other than a few math and Biology classes and many electrical engineering classes, which were basically advanced physics, I took my O-chem sequence, one bio, and a biochemistry class at a CC (because of my busy schedule, cost, going over the unit limit, and having to take a lot engineering classes). Does this weaken my application? Should I address this in my PS? Should I take any upper-division Bio classes in a four-year university regardless of its cost?

4) Which GPA should I use for the LizzyM #?

5) Will Med schools question my motivation for medicine bad if I start working as an engineer next year?

6) Finally, should I also start volunteering in another department of this hospital? Is there anything else that I can do to improve my application?

Thank you again for your help.

Forensic Chick said:

Since it's been 5 yrs since I've been in undergrad, my undergrad stopped having a pre-medical committee. Now, they just compile letters for your and send out a form letter in a pretty packet to the schools. I'm disturbed by this, but it's the new policy apparently. I have a pre-med committee letter from 2002, but should that be included with my current LOR's? I have a feeling that it's just too old and outdated, but it's the only true pre-medical committee letter I'm going to get.

Click to expand...

You don't need a committee letter. Individual letters as specified by each school (some want so many science professors, non-science professors, etc) are sufficient. You might not want to include the 2002 letter... it is old and didn't seem to help previously.

My personal statement notes my low initial GPA but mostly focuses on my recent accomplishments and teaching.

Click to expand...

Eliminated any mention of what is poor. Focus the reader's attention on your good M.S. grades and your work as an instructor.

I'm not sure, in my application, what to focus on though - since I'm not able to list everything. Is the clinical time or volunteering more important to focus on?

Click to expand...

Focus on your desire to serve others, engage in lifetime learning, and to be a leader in the healthcare team.

Also, I am applying MD only this year. Will my applications for DO in the past come back to haunt me in the process? Will the non-trad status (with multiple jobs in between) hurt or help?

Click to expand...

No, and not hurt (but many not help, either).

cse2060 said:

1) I am pretty happy with my PS, my motivation is still the same and other than the research (which I will add to my PS) I don’t have much to change about it. How important is it to change my Personal Statement? Do I need to mention anything about the reapplication? Do medical schools compare the new application with the old one (both primary and secondary)?

Click to expand...

You need not change the PS, you could mention that you are reapplying but it is not essential. I think that we have too much to do without digging out old applications. I've never known anyone to say that they looked back .

2) My last name recently changed. I know that both of my names show up in my file and I think that my AMCAS# does not change. Nevertheless, I can ask some of the LOR writers to change their LOR but it’s hard to change all of them. Do I need to get a new set of LOR or I can still use the LOR’s written in October with my old last name?

Click to expand...

No need to change names on the letters. The adcom will figure it out.

3) Since I transferred to my four-year university, I had to take math, physics, and G-chemistry courses in the CC that I started. Other than a few math and Biology classes and many electrical engineering classes, which were basically advanced physics, I took my O-chem sequence, one bio, and a biochemistry class at a CC (because of my busy schedule, cost, going over the unit limit, and having to take a lot engineering classes). Does this weaken my application? Should I address this in my PS? Should I take any upper-division Bio classes in a four-year university regardless of its cost?

Click to expand...

Obviously, you were a community college student who transferred to a 4 year college (this is different than taking coursework at a lesser school to avoid a weed-out course at your own school). Engineering is hard, so you might figure the whole thing to be a wash.

4) Which GPA should I use for the LizzyM #?

Click to expand...

Your total undergrad gpa.

5) Will Med schools question my motivation for medicine bad if I start working as an engineer next year?

Click to expand...

No.

6) Finally, should I also start volunteering in another department of this hospital? Is there anything else that I can do to improve my application?

Thank you again for your help.

Click to expand...

Rather than taking on more tasks, see if you can grow within the dept where you are now: training new people, accepting more responsibility-- leadership stuff.

Hi Lizzy!

I posted this earlier, but I think it may have gotten lost in the mix. You mentioned in a previous post that you are willing to look at a GPA that is .3-.5 below your school's mean. I just wanted to clarify what this means. If your school's mean GPA is a 3.7, you are willing to consider applications with a GPA as low as 3.2? You also suggested that this was especially true in reference to certain schools. I was wondering if you could give some examples of undergrad schools that you generally do this for.

And one final question that was not posted before. For the LizzyM number, you said to use the overall GPA. What if the overall GPA (3.55) is higher than the science gpa (3.2 with upward trend)? Is it still appropriate to use the overall GPA? I am a non-science major and I had a hard time recovering from my poor grades in general chemistry freshman year (but pulled an A in biochem and an A- in an advanced biochem class senior year, among good grades in a other science classes).

Thanks for your help!

chickenlittle84 said:

Hi Lizzy!

I posted this earlier, but I think it may have gotten lost in the mix. You mentioned in a previous post that you are willing to look at a GPA that is .3-.5 below your school's mean. I just wanted to clarify what this means. If your school's mean GPA is a 3.7, you are willing to consider applications with a GPA as low as 3.2? You also suggested that this was especially true in reference to certain schools. I was wondering if you could give some examples of undergrad schools that you generally do this for.

Click to expand...

Basically, yes. If the mean gpa at my school is 3.7, I have an unofficial cut off in the back of my mind of 3.2. (maybe 3.4). I don't want to name specific schools but there are a few that have no grade inflation (the committee letters point out the curves used in grading at the school, etc).

And one final question that was not posted before. For the LizzyM number, you said to use the overall GPA. What if the overall GPA (3.55) is higher than the science gpa (3.2 with upward trend)? Is it still appropriate to use the overall GPA? I am a non-science major and I had a hard time recovering from my poor grades in general chemistry freshman year (but pulled an A in biochem and an A- in an advanced biochem class senior year, among good grades in a other science classes).

Thanks for your help!

Click to expand...

If you can find the school's avg science gpa use that and then use your own science gpa.

Hi Lizzy M.

In the experience section do we have to list a phone number if we worked for a family? If so, do medical schools actually call the people we have listed as a contact?

The reason I am asking is that I worked for a family with an autistic child. I was trained to do ABA therapy and I worked closely with them for several months before they decided to discontinue with the therapy. It was a short experience, but I found it to be a significant learning experience. I have lost contact with them (it was 4 years ago) and I do not have their number.

I also nannied for several families and before I put their phone numbers on my application I would like to let them know if they are going to get a phone call as a courtesy.


Thank you for your help.

ilovelucy said:

Hi Lizzy M.

In the experience section do we have to list a phone number if we worked for a family? If so, do medical schools actually call the people we have listed as a contact?

The reason I am asking is that I worked for a family with an autistic child. I was trained to do ABA therapy and I worked closely with them for several months before they decided to discontinue with the therapy. It was a short experience, but I found it to be a significant learning experience. I have lost contact with them (it was 4 years ago) and I do not have their number.

I also nannied for several families and before I put their phone numbers on my application I would like to let them know if they are going to get a phone call as a courtesy.


Thank you for your help.

Click to expand...

It is not essential to include a phone number and it is understandable that you might not have a telephone number for a family that you lost touch with years ago. In all my years on the adcom, I've only known of one case where the suggestion was made that a phone call be made to verify something on the application and that was a listed research experience that the candidate seemed unable to describe at all during the interview (such that the person interviewing the candidate was led to believe that the research experience was imaginary).

Dear Adcoms,

I am kinda depressed and not sure what to do b/c I am taking the mcat in a month and am not scoring above a 25.. I took the tpr course and been studying for a while. I talked to my state school which I want to get into and they said that they would take the latest mcat score and dont care about the first one if you improve ( this will be the 1st time I take the mcat) and a good friend of mine told me to just take it since I have been studying and took the tpr course and see what happens. His reasoning was that even if I do bad I will have gone through the experience and if I take it again the state school I want to get into will like that since it shows my improvement/dedication and I will know what to expect the 2nd time(if i do bad the first time). Sorry for the ling post, but with all this being said and a month left to study hard, should I take it or not? Any advice and help will be appreciated....thanks

Dear Adcoms,

I hear that every year a few students don't show up for the first day of enrollment. Admissions committees scramble to fill the empty slots. Would it be offensive to show up the first day and inquire about these empty spaces? I have been urged to do this by a couple of physicians, but it seems like it might be a bit extreme.

Thank you!

-Azura

Lizzy,

25/m, completed my Master's degree in physician assistant studies in august of 05 and since have worked in a busy ER while finishing the prereqs i didn't have as an under grad (calc, orgo, physics). my undergrade science and total gpa is approximately 3.6 i take mcats end of may 07. my questions are:

how much will it help me that I am a practicing physician assistant?
how do my graduate course grades factor into my overall gpa?
I got As in orgo, A and B in calc, and Cs in physics? how will these C grades affect my chances? (only Cs in undergraduate courses).
I am a pennsylvania resident, any med schools in PA that might appreciate my background/experience?

thanks ahead of time,

Dante

Lizzy,

Thank you in advance. I have three questions.

To your knowledge, do allopathic medical schools allow osteopathic medical students to transfer after their first or second year?

Also, can osteopathic M-1 students apply and matriculate into allopathic medical schools to begin their M-1 all over again?

Would it be a mistake to turn down a DO acceptance to try for a MD acceptance next year? My Science GPA is 3.3 and MCAT 28 (9V, 10P, 9B)

I have a problem. I failed bio 101 last semester, and Im taking it again now. The thing is, I dont want to do a bio major anymore. I want to switch to math.

1. Can adcoms tell when, or if, a student changed their major? Or does it just tell what the graduate with?

2. would it help me in the admissions process to stay a bio major and try to get A's in higher level bio courses?

Hi Lizzy M,

I just found out that I got B- for one of my graduate courses(biomedical engineering). I have been hearing about the graduate school GPA inflation in this forum and I am really concerned about this horrible performance.

I have been wondering whether B- in graduate course can lead to "automatic" rejection at the primary or secondary application step.

My undegraduate overall GPA is 3.57 (Science:3.63) and MCAT score is 35P. I have two publications (second and first author) and I am planning to apply for MD/PhD.

Thank you for your help in advance!

Of the three sections in MCAT: verbal, physical science and biological science, which section carries the most weight?

AzuraDragon said:

Dear Adcoms,

I hear that every year a few students don't show up for the first day of enrollment. Admissions committees scramble to fill the empty slots. Would it be offensive to show up the first day and inquire about these empty spaces? I have been urged to do this by a couple of physicians, but it seems like it might be a bit extreme.

Thank you!

-Azura

Click to expand...

I have never heard this... I suppose you'd have to be on the waitlist at that school and have your transcripts in hand... if you have non-conformist but gutsy audacity, go for it!

Old ortho said:

Of the three sections in MCAT: verbal, physical science and biological science, which section carries the most weight?

Click to expand...

I think that this varies by adcom and within adcoms and is relative. A given medical school's mean for each section might give you a clue.

moto_za said:

Dear Adcoms,

I am kinda depressed and not sure what to do b/c I am taking the mcat in a month and am not scoring above a 25.. I took the tpr course and been studying for a while. I talked to my state school which I want to get into and they said that they would take the latest mcat score and dont care about the first one if you improve ( this will be the 1st time I take the mcat) and a good friend of mine told me to just take it since I have been studying and took the tpr course and see what happens. His reasoning was that even if I do bad I will have gone through the experience and if I take it again the state school I want to get into will like that since it shows my improvement/dedication and I will know what to expect the 2nd time(if i do bad the first time). Sorry for the ling post, but with all this being said and a month left to study hard, should I take it or not? Any advice and help will be appreciated....thanks

Click to expand...

What do you want from me? Go study!

michcalif said:

Hi Lizzy M,

I just found out that I got B- for one of my graduate courses(biomedical engineering). I have been hearing about the graduate school GPA inflation in this forum and I am really concerned about this horrible performance.

I have been wondering whether B- in graduate course can lead to "automatic" rejection at the primary or secondary application step.

My undegraduate overall GPA is 3.57 (Science:3.63) and MCAT score is 35P. I have two publications (second and first author) and I am planning to apply for MD/PhD.

Thank you for your help in advance!

Click to expand...

Dang! Obviously you aren't cut out for biomedical engineering. Nothing you can do about the grade. I don't know enough about the inner workings of the MD/PhD adcom (it does its own thing) although I know that they love publications. Maybe they'll love you.

NewYorkDoc said:

I have a problem. I failed bio 101 last semester, and Im taking it again now. The thing is, I dont want to do a bio major anymore. I want to switch to math.

1. Can adcoms tell when, or if, a student changed their major? Or does it just tell what the graduate with?

Click to expand...

Just your major at graduation (or at the time you submit the AMCAS if you've not yet graduated).

2. would it help me in the admissions process to stay a bio major and try to get A's in higher level bio courses?

Click to expand...

No.

waterbuffalo said:

Lizzy,

Thank you in advance. I have three questions.

To your knowledge, do allopathic medical schools allow osteopathic medical students to transfer after their first or second year?

Click to expand...

As far as I know, no.

Also, can osteopathic M-1 students apply and matriculate into allopathic medical schools to begin their M-1 all over again?

Click to expand...

Highly doubtful.

Would it be a mistake to turn down a DO acceptance to try for a MD acceptance next year? My Science GPA is 3.3 and MCAT 28 (9V, 10P, 9B)

Click to expand...

Absolutely. Yes.

d3tubp said:

Lizzy,

25/m, completed my Master's degree in physician assistant studies in august of 05 and since have worked in a busy ER while finishing the prereqs i didn't have as an under grad (calc, orgo, physics). my undergrade science and total gpa is approximately 3.6 i take mcats end of may 07. my questions are:

how much will it help me that I am a practicing physician assistant?
how do my graduate course grades factor into my overall gpa?
I got As in orgo, A and B in calc, and Cs in physics? how will these C grades affect my chances? (only Cs in undergraduate courses).
I am a pennsylvania resident, any med schools in PA that might appreciate my background/experience?

thanks ahead of time,

Dante

Click to expand...

I don't do "what are my chances" so I can't tell you where to apply.

Being a PA-C is clinical experience so you've got that but that's all it is. You will need to justify changing careers, you will need to tell the adcom "why medicine".

Cs in physics will hurt but an undergrad gpa of 3.6 isn't too bad.

undergrad gpa is separate from grad gpa. Post bach is shown separately. Quick & dirty look/see is of the undergrad gpa only. After than (if you aren't so low that the adcom figures it is a lost cause) the adcom will look at BCPM and AO (all other) and total gpa by academic year for undergrad, total undergrad, grad (total, BCPM and AO), and post-bach (total, BCPM, and AO). The adcom can also look at every course by name, school, semester taken and grade.

Thank you fruitcake lady, you're awesome

Hello ADCOMs and everyone,

I'm pretty new to the forums but have been browsing for about a year. I am not quite sure how much of a non-traditional applicant I am at age 24. I graduated UCSD Bioengineering in 2004 and will be applying this June for the first time after 3 years of work. I have UG GPA of 3.28 and science GPA of a bit below that (I worked about 20 hours a week during college). I took all my premed course when I was in UG but never applied since I was not certain why I wanted to go into medcine. I took the MCAT in undergrad twice and received a 28L, 29N. I was heavily involved in a christian fellowship and was a leader in a ministry to bring awaeness of international injustice issues to the campus.

I was going to apply to MBA sometimes last year and did very well on my GMAT (98 percentile). Shortly after that I lost my job and had a long time to think about life. I decided that I would be unhappy being in business and felt that even one year of working as an actual doctor would mean much more to me than all the money I could make as an MBA grad. I took the MCAT for the third time in April 2006 and scored a 32Q (09 P, 11 B, 12V). I went back to work shortly after that as my family was still recovering from my father going to seminary school and we had many expenses (sold the house, etc, my sister first year of college). I have been volunteering at a local hospital in the ER and ICU and shadowing a pediatritian whenever I could. I sometimes go to Mexico for one-day medical trips and have been attending the UCSD Christian Medical Fellowship for the past two years (UCSD's medical students christian org. From that I have seen medical students go through first years, second year, boards, third year... just to say that I think understand a bit about what it takes to go through medical school).

In my three years of work I have been a Research Associate at a Biotech company and currently the data coordinator for the UCSD Transplant (Histocompatibilty) Lab. I have had some prior research experience as an undergrad as well, but no paper was published.

Many non-traditional applicants tend to go back to school for an MS or Post-Bac to boost their GPA but I did not. My reasoning for not going was 1) for financial reasons since it is expensive and the year that I would be in school would be a year I could work and save money for medical school. 2) The road ahead is long and I wanted to be able to bring medicine to the underserved and internationally as soon as possible and I just felt that I did not want to wait another year.

I did take 3 UCSD undergrad courses through the extension programs and have received As for all three. They were not taken in the same quarter though.

Questions:

Would not going to Post-Bac or MS programs be seen as a negative marker of someone who is not really determined to go into medicine? If so, are my reasoning inadequate?

Would ADCOMs consider someone with my stats above? If I make it to interviews, what other questions should I expect (not counting the general ones)?

Should I even mention my GMAT score as something positive? (Since I'm not going into business, I'm just trying to find some use of this score I suppose. Perhaps as a sign that I can do well if I tried hard).

Sorry for the long thread and I must say, this is an awesome community! Thank you for answers in advance!

I'm planning on applying to med school next year as a nontraditional student - I'm just finishing up my PhD in Physics right now and I'm planning on working as a post-doc until I start med school. My question is regarding coursework for nontraditional students. (I realize I'll probably have to ask at the schools I apply to but your advice and opinion is greatly appreciated)

Are there exemptions made for nontraditional premeds? I've taken a semester of bio, a semester of neuroscience w/lab, a semester of graduate biochemistry, as well as all the required chemistry and physics classes. I don't have bio lab or chem lab but my thesis involved extensive chemistry and biology labwork. Will I need to take another semester of bio, as well as bio and orgo lab? Or is it possible to have those courses waved?

Thanks much!

Will it look bad to the ADCOM if i finish my degree (psych) in 3 years and then finish my pre reqs the following year? That would be orgran chem 1 & 2, physics 1 & 2 and maybe biochemistry(not required I know.) Worried that grouping all prereqs together will look like a "last minute decision", but I want to do this because I think I will be able to focus much better on medical school/MCAT once I have my degree out of the way. Thanks.

I'm sure these questions get redundant, but here goes anyways:

I graduated in December with a gpa of 3.2 (bcmp 3.0) from a good university. I struggled with an illness through the middle two years, which doesn't excuse my grades though does tend to explain them. My last semester I had a 3.8 in all upper-level courses. I have been working full-time since at the med school of my choice doing research, and am already in the works of getting authorship on a paper. I have good ECs, clinical work, shadowing, and volunteering hours. I also work part-time outside of my regular research job (the research doesn't pay great but I thought it was a great opportunity). I am taking the MCAT in July. I'm not entirely sure what to do about my grades. Obviously, after taking ~140 credits in undergrad, it would be impossible to bring my gpa up enough to impress med schools. However, it seems to be a general consensus that graduate grades aren't looked upon in the best light (grade inflation, etc.). RIght now, it seems that grad school is the only option, since I need to work to support myself. Will taking graduate courses and doing well show my academic ability (while working ~50+ hrs/wk and volunteering)? Or should I be going in a different direction?

Sorry to be repetative, I just wanted to know what to do in my situation.

Thanks so much!

LizzyM said:

You seem to have a good shot. Don't sweat 3.49 vs 3.50. It's 2 decimal places and rounded, AFAIK.

Click to expand...

Hi Lizzy,
First of all, thanks for answering so many questions. I've been reading through and it's a great help.
Anyway, can I take your quote above mean that all GPAs appear rounded to one decimal place? E.g. a 3.59 appears as 3.6? That's great news if so, but that AFAIK is worrying me It seems a silly thing to worry about, but there's a reason everything costs $x.99, and the human/random element is impossible to ignore in this process.

Thanks,
Ari

Lizzy,

Thanks for your help.

I'm planning on studying in France next fall through my school's abroad program. I'll be taking courses in French with regular University students, and the grades I'll get will be on my school transcript but will not count towards my school's GPA. I contacted AMCAS and they said that if I transfer credit (I'm pretty sure I have to) back to my home institution, the grades will be listed on the AMCAS transcript but will not cont towards the AMCAS GPA.

I imagine there's a good chance I won't do so hot in these classes since my French will be much worse than those of the other students. However, I think that this would be a great opportunity to become completely fluent in the language.

What's your experience with such grades? Should I not do this program since I might get poor grades, or will adcoms be understanding that I wanted to challenge myself by taking courses in a foreign language?

Thanks again.

banana5 said:

Lizzy,

Thanks for your help.

I'm planning on studying in France next fall through my school's abroad program. I'll be taking courses in French with regular University students, and the grades I'll get will be on my school transcript but will not count towards my school's GPA. I contacted AMCAS and they said that if I transfer credit (I'm pretty sure I have to) back to my home institution, the grades will be listed on the AMCAS transcript but will not cont towards the AMCAS GPA.

I imagine there's a good chance I won't do so hot in these classes since my French will be much worse than those of the other students. However, I think that this would be a great opportunity to become completely fluent in the language.

What's your experience with such grades? Should I not do this program since I might get poor grades, or will adcoms be understanding that I wanted to challenge myself by taking courses in a foreign language?

Thanks again.

Click to expand...

Are you sure that the grades do not count in AMCAS - I may be wrong, but I thought I read an AMCAS PDF explaining that study abroad grades done through your home college DO count in your AMCAS GPA because they will be reflected on your home institution transcript - there was some allowance for foreign college transcripts at institutions abroad with no ties to US colleges, but my reading of that passage left me thinking that very few people would be affected that way...study abroad programs are pretty common place and it would be strange for them to NOT count those grades, it seems to me...

//edit// the following passage is taken from the 2008 AMCAS instructions PDF, and it indicates that if you receive a letter grade from your home college for foreign study coursework, it is included in your AMCAS GPA - it appears that the only way it does not get included is if it is pass / fail:

Study Abroad Course Work
Courses attempted through a study abroad program sponsored by a U.S. or
Canadian institution must be entered. If your transcript does not indicate that
the courses were part of a formal study abroad program, you must ask the
registrar's office to attach a letter of explanation to the official transcript
before it is sent to AMCAS.
• Include the foreign institution and the sponsoring U.S. or Canadian institution
in your list of colleges attended.
• Request a transcript exception for the foreign institution. Indicate the U.S. or
Canadian institution on whose transcript credits will appear.
• List study abroad course work under the foreign college at which it was
attempted.
• If the sponsoring U.S. or Canadian institution provides letter grades (e.g., A,
B, C, etc.) and credit hours convertible to semester hours for each course on
their transcript or on an official letter attached to their transcript:
• Enter all required course data.
• AMCAS will include this course work in AMCAS GPAs.


If the sponsoring U.S. or Canadian institution does NOT provide letter grades other
than Pass/Fail:
• Indicate "Pass/Fail" as the Course Type and provide all other required
course data, entering the transcript grade exactly as it appears on the
official transcript of the U.S. or Canadian sponsoring institution.
• AMCAS will NOT include this course work in AMCAS GPAs; however,
AMCAS will include this course work in cumulative Pass/Fail-Pass and
Pass/Fail-Fail credit hour totals.

1John4:8 said:

<snip>
Questions:

Would not going to Post-Bac or MS programs be seen as a negative marker of someone who is not really determined to go into medicine? If so, are my reasoning inadequate?

Click to expand...

Post-bac is for people who haven't done the pre-reqs for med school. You've done those so you needn't do one. SMP (special masters programs) are similar to the first year of med school and are favored by those who didn't do very well in the pre-reqs or in science courses in general and who feel the need to prove their ability to perform satisfactorily in the medical sciences.

Would ADCOMs consider someone with my stats above? If I make it to interviews, what other questions should I expect (not counting the general ones)?

Click to expand...

Your latest MCAT is pretty good. Your gpa is rather low for some upper tier schools but might get you a look at some unranked schools.

Should I even mention my GMAT score as something positive? (Since I'm not going into business, I'm just trying to find some use of this score I suppose. Perhaps as a sign that I can do well if I tried hard).

Click to expand...

Pretty much irrelevant. Might confuse the adcom or make it seem like you are only half-heartedly going into medicine or that you are gunning for MD/MBA. Also makes it look as if you are better suited to business than medicine.

BluePhoenix said:

I'm planning on applying to med school next year as a nontraditional student - I'm just finishing up my PhD in Physics right now and I'm planning on working as a post-doc until I start med school. My question is regarding coursework for nontraditional students. (I realize I'll probably have to ask at the schools I apply to but your advice and opinion is greatly appreciated)

Are there exemptions made for nontraditional premeds? I've taken a semester of bio, a semester of neuroscience w/lab, a semester of graduate biochemistry, as well as all the required chemistry and physics classes. I don't have bio lab or chem lab but my thesis involved extensive chemistry and biology labwork. Will I need to take another semester of bio, as well as bio and orgo lab? Or is it possible to have those courses waved?

Thanks much!

Click to expand...

There are no exceptions. You must have "one year" of each of the subjects listed. If you haven't already completed the course work you may do so during the year that you are applying. You must have completed the coursework before matriculating to med school.

patrickd223 said:

Will it look bad to the ADCOM if i finish my degree (psych) in 3 years and then finish my pre reqs the following year? That would be orgran chem 1 & 2, physics 1 & 2 and maybe biochemistry(not required I know.) Worried that grouping all prereqs together will look like a "last minute decision", but I want to do this because I think I will be able to focus much better on medical school/MCAT once I have my degree out of the way. Thanks.

Click to expand...

The only problem with this plan is that you will need to take a gap year between the end of college and your application to medical school. Obviously you can't take the MCAT without having taken O-chem and physics and you can't apply to medical school without the MCAT. Furthermore, you can't very well apply to med school with most of the pre-reqs yet to be done (how can we compare you to other candidates with regard to performance on the pre-reqs?)

You should get some shadowing, clinical exposure and the like well before your senior year to show that this is an ongoing interest.

mlee8 said:

I'm sure these questions get redundant, but here goes anyways:

I graduated in December with a gpa of 3.2 (bcmp 3.0) from a good university. <snip> Obviously, after taking ~140 credits in undergrad, it would be impossible to bring my gpa up enough to impress med schools. However, it seems to be a general consensus that graduate grades aren't looked upon in the best light (grade inflation, etc.). RIght now, it seems that grad school is the only option, since I need to work to support myself. Will taking graduate courses and doing well show my academic ability (while working ~50+ hrs/wk and volunteering)? Or should I be going in a different direction?

Click to expand...

Your gpa is on the low side. Your next step may hinge on your MCAT. However, I would be very careful with working 50 hours and volunteering while taking classes. Will you work to support yourself in medical school? Could you see yourself borrowing living expenses for 5 years of medical school? If so, you might want to consider a one-year SMP to show that you can do handle the science curriculum.

A M.S. or MPH might be another option...but given a 3.0 bcpm, I'd suggest the SMP. If you are on the fence about medicine though, the M.S. in biology or chemistry may be more marketable.

linuxizer said:

Hi Lizzy,
First of all, thanks for answering so many questions. I've been reading through and it's a great help.
Anyway, can I take your quote above mean that all GPAs appear rounded to one decimal place? E.g. a 3.59 appears as 3.6? That's great news if so, but that AFAIK is worrying me It seems a silly thing to worry about, but there's a reason everything costs $x.99, and the human/random element is impossible to ignore in this process.

Thanks,
Ari

Click to expand...

No, what I'm saying is that the gpa is displayed to two decimal places. Sure there is a psychological jump from 3.59 to 3.60 but most of us are scientists who know that there isn't anything magical about that extra 0.01.

Greetings,

I am a non-trad preparing to begin a post-bac program this summer and planning to apply in the 2008 cycle. I graduated from a prestigious undergraduate university several years ago with a degree in Mechanical Engineering and 3.3GPA (3.4 BCPM). My plan is to earn straight A’s in the pre-reqs, which would leave me with a 3.4 overall GPA and a 3.7 BCPM. I will take the MCAT next spring. I also plan to continue volunteering and find a lab research position where I can hopefully get published between now and interview time.

My questions are...

1. I am trying to choose between Harvard Extension School Health Careers Program and UPenn’s Pre-Health program for my post-bacc. HES is less formal; they offer all of the courses and write a committee letter for those who make acceptable grades. Volunteering, research, etc. are up to you. UPenn is a much more selective program and it seems to have more structure: regular advising, easy access to research and volunteer work. For geographic and financial reasons, I am leaning toward Harvard; however, Penn seems to have more prestige and will provide more assistance and guidance. Assuming that I get the same grades, continue volunteering and achieve the same level of success in research at either school, will adcoms see a difference between the less formal Harvard Extension School program and the structured, more selective UPenn program? Do you see any other reason for choosing one program over the other?

2. I am new to the world of research, but I am fascinated by both lab and clinical neuroscience studies I have read about. I am eager to get involved in either or both and I ultimately want a career in academic medicine. I have been told by a few doctors that being published is the only thing that matters and if I’m going to end up cleaning test tubes, my time would be better spent on other endeavors that will have a more meaningful impact on my application. Do you agree? How important is being published compared to simply getting involved?

3. I am confident in my aptitude, my drive and above all else, my motivation for pursuing a career in medicine, but I recognize that my numbers may be a hindrance. Assuming I am able to fulfill the plan I have described and I do well on the MCAT, do you see me as a viable candidate for medical school? Are there other things I should be focused on in the next 2 years?

Thank you very much for your advice!!!!

LizzyM said:

Your latest MCAT is pretty good. Your gpa is rather low for some upper tier schools but might get you a look at some unranked schools.

Click to expand...

Thank you for your answer. I really appreciate the insight and hope to still get in somewhere this cycle. This is a question for everyone. What are unranked schools?

Thanks!

Hi Lizzy,
I have been admitted by two DO schools, and St. George's, and am on the waitlist at two MD schools. I don't know where this is going to end up, and was wondering: what is the likelihood of being able to transfer out of a DO school and to be accepted by an MD school?
Thanks so much.

Hi everyone,
(I just joined SDN, and I have to say it's too awesome, especially this thread. )

I'm a 2nd year at a UC in CA, and hoping to increase my chances of getting into an in-state school...

My GPA right now is 3.78, but I hope I can raise it to at least above a 3.8 and get an MCAT score of >35. Right now I have ~200hrs of clinical volunteering, including some at a vet hospital ( does that count?), but since I go to different departments each quarter, I don't have the chance to really get to know anyone well enough to write me a good LOR. I'm thinking I can get to know some professors next year so I can get a few letters, but I know they won't be anything really amazing because of the limited time I'll have with them. How badly would not having wonderful LORs affect my application?

For research, my only exp. is from high school, where I did 3 yrs and did a presentation and had my abstract published at a so. cali conference for undergrads. Since that was back in high school, would adcoms give is a lot less weight than if it was done in college? Do you think I should try to work in a lab next year?

Would volunteering at a hospital near my home (I'm heading home for the summer) look better, or would working in say...a convalescent home be better? Does it matter? Oh, and do organizations like Phi Beta Kappa matter at all?

I'm also planning to do some tutoring or TA'ing for leadership next year, and also be involved in two clubs. I don't have anything that I've done continuously for years and have LORs or something to show for it, because I really had (and still have some...) a lot of difficulty speaking to/interacting with people. I know this is a hugely negative thing against me, but I'm wondering if I can address overcoming this issue in order to go into medicine in my PS or somewhere else, since it has been a big part of my life? Is it possible adcoms will somewhat forgive my lack of involvement in anything because of that?

Gee! this is really long, I'm sorry! Basically, do you think there is anything else that I should do in the the next years to set me apart and get me a chance into a CA school or any of the top-tier schools? Thank you so much!

futuredr said:

Hi Lizzy,
I have been admitted by two DO schools, and St. George's, and am on the waitlist at two MD schools. I don't know where this is going to end up, and was wondering: what is the likelihood of being able to transfer out of a DO school and to be accepted by an MD school?
Thanks so much.

Click to expand...

The likelihood of being able to transfer from one MD school to another is almost zero. I can't imagine that the likelihood of tranferring from DO to MD would be higher.

Pick a DO school & go. If you wish, stay on the MD waitlist as long as you can hold out. Everything is pointing toward success: you are 4 years away from graduating from a US school and become a licensed physician. Go for it!

LBostonA said:

Greetings,

I am a non-trad preparing to begin a post-bac program this summer and planning to apply in the 2008 cycle. I graduated from a prestigious undergraduate university several years ago with a degree in Mechanical Engineering and 3.3GPA (3.4 BCPM). My plan is to earn straight A’s in the pre-reqs, which would leave me with a 3.4 overall GPA and a 3.7 BCPM. I will take the MCAT next spring. I also plan to continue volunteering and find a lab research position where I can hopefully get published between now and interview time.

My questions are...

1. I am trying to choose between Harvard Extension School Health Careers Program and UPenn’s Pre-Health program for my post-bacc. HES is less formal; they offer all of the courses and write a committee letter for those who make acceptable grades. Volunteering, research, etc. are up to you. UPenn is a much more selective program and it seems to have more structure: regular advising, easy access to research and volunteer work. For geographic and financial reasons, I am leaning toward Harvard; however, Penn seems to have more prestige and will provide more assistance and guidance. Assuming that I get the same grades, continue volunteering and achieve the same level of success in research at either school, will adcoms see a difference between the less formal Harvard Extension School program and the structured, more selective UPenn program? Do you see any other reason for choosing one program over the other?

2. I am new to the world of research, but I am fascinated by both lab and clinical neuroscience studies I have read about. I am eager to get involved in either or both and I ultimately want a career in academic medicine. I have been told by a few doctors that being published is the only thing that matters and if I’m going to end up cleaning test tubes, my time would be better spent on other endeavors that will have a more meaningful impact on my application. Do you agree? How important is being published compared to simply getting involved?

3. I am confident in my aptitude, my drive and above all else, my motivation for pursuing a career in medicine, but I recognize that my numbers may be a hindrance. Assuming I am able to fulfill the plan I have described and I do well on the MCAT, do you see me as a viable candidate for medical school? Are there other things I should be focused on in the next 2 years?

Thank you very much for your advice!!!!

Click to expand...

I've no preference between the two. You need to be a little more of a self-starter if you choose Harvard but as long as you move your feet to get research & clinical experience in addition to the classes you should be ok.

At the top tier research schools, it is rare to get an interview unless you've done some research (85-90% of those who ultimately matriculate have research experience) A publication is far more rare (5% of those who interview at my school, IIRC). So, do something. By the time you are a resident you should be doing something that can be published but it is unusual for students (UG, post-bac or MD) to get published.

Engineering is usually seen as a bitch as far as what it does to the gpa. So you might be considered equivalent to a 3.6 B.A. in sociology (or whatever you want to think of as a "soft" major). Post-bac grades get shown separately on the AMCAS so a 4.0 post-gac is going to be very impressive. Show us that and a sweet MCAT (plus research & clinical exposure) and you'll have a good shot.

1John4:8 said:

Thank you for your answer. I really appreciate the insight and hope to still get in somewhere this cycle. This is a question for everyone. What are unranked schools?

Thanks!

Click to expand...

The schools that aren't ranked by US News and World Report (the top 50 are ranked). The ranking is imperfect but for this purpose it is not inappropriate. You can also get a copy of the MSAR and compare your stats with the average admission stats for each school.

rainsymphony said:

How badly would not having wonderful LORs affect my application?

Click to expand...

Hard to say. Does your school offer a committee letter? Some public schools don't offer very high quality LORs because profs don't get a chance to know students. Adcoms that deal with those schools know of that sort of situation and will take it in stride.

For research, my only exp. is from high school, where I did 3 yrs and did a presentation and had my abstract published at a so. cali conference for undergrads. Since that was back in high school, would adcoms give is a lot less weight than if it was done in college? Do you think I should try to work in a lab next year?

Click to expand...

Adcoms won't give much weight (if any) to stuff done in HS. You should work in a lab next year.

Would volunteering at a hospital near my home (I'm heading home for the summer) look better, or would working in say...a convalescent home be better? Does it matter? Oh, and do organizations like Phi Beta Kappa matter at all?

Click to expand...

I'm famous for my tag line that clinical experience involves "smelling patients". You want to get as close as you can (smelling, however, is only a figure of speech), and be of service (medicine is a service profession, after all). It isn't about getting a head start on learning about procedures or medical techniques (no one is going to really teach you to read x-rays in a meaningful way, even if they let you look over their shoulder & point out significant findings). Whichever will get you in the door & let you do things that you find meaningful is OK.

Phi Beta Kappa -- hardly worth letting it take up a spot on your application but if you are going to put an honor society on your application it is the only one that really matters.

I'm also planning to do some tutoring or TA'ing for leadership next year, and also be involved in two clubs. I don't have anything that I've done continuously for years and have LORs or something to show for it, because I really had (and still have some...) a lot of difficulty speaking to/interacting with people. I know this is a hugely negative thing against me, but I'm wondering if I can address overcoming this issue in order to go into medicine in my PS or somewhere else, since it has been a big part of my life? Is it possible adcoms will somewhat forgive my lack of involvement in anything because of that?

Click to expand...

This is a big negative and something you should work on overcoming before you pursue medicine. Don't make excuses for your lack of involvement... just accentuate the positive!

Adcom2 said:

I'm a believer in the MCAT, more or less, so it really makes me wonder. Many on my committee place very little value on it, though. But a 24 is almost certainly getting you screened out of interviews many places (I don't know about my school, since I don't do that). You really have to take a prep course and retake the exam, most likely.

Click to expand...

yes 24 might be to low to be reviewd

this question may not be the most interesting, but i'm a bit confused as to how to answer the question on the tmdsas and amcas about the primary or first language. coming from the border, i grew up speaking spanish and english simultaneously... spanish with my mother and grandmother, who lived with us, and english with my father and at school. since there really isn't an option for two languages, which should i put down?

LizzyM - Thanks for answering my previous question, and for all the help you've given to us.

I worked full-time throughout my undergrad years. Because I traveled a lot for business at the time (and was overloaded with too many things at once), I improperly checked out of Orgo Lab and was given an incomplete that was subsequently converted into an F automatically by my university. I explained this at my committee interview, and they indicated they would reference it in my committee letter.

In order to show it was not the coursework, I retook the course and got an A. My professor from the second go-around invited me back to TA some classes for him, and he is writing one of my LORs. Would it be wise to have him also mention what happened, or should I just keep his letter focused on the positive? I suspect his letter will be a very strong one, and I feel like mentioning the negative would detract from its impact.

Thank you!

st0w said:

LizzyM - Thanks for answering my previous question, and for all the help you've given to us.

I worked full-time throughout my undergrad years. Because I traveled a lot for business at the time (and was overloaded with too many things at once), I improperly checked out of Orgo Lab and was given an incomplete that was subsequently converted into an F automatically by my university. I explained this at my committee interview, and they indicated they would reference it in my committee letter.

In order to show it was not the coursework, I retook the course and got an A. My professor from the second go-around invited me back to TA some classes for him, and he is writing one of my LORs. Would it be wise to have him also mention what happened, or should I just keep his letter focused on the positive? I suspect his letter will be a very strong one, and I feel like mentioning the negative would detract from its impact.

Thank you!

Click to expand...

Don't tell the professor what to write. It sounds like he'll be able to write a strong letter (you did well in his class & you later served as his TA).

Be sure to put your work experience in the experience section and in the description section tell a little about the amount of travel required. An adcom will see that it overlaps with the "bad" grade and may cut you some slack.

fyodor06 said:

this question may not be the most interesting, but i'm a bit confused as to how to answer the question on the tmdsas and amcas about the primary or first language. coming from the border, i grew up speaking spanish and english simultaneously... spanish with my mother and grandmother, who lived with us, and english with my father and at school. since there really isn't an option for two languages, which should i put down?

Click to expand...

Obviously, you didn't start "school" at birth. Babies usually spend more time with mom and grandma than with dad so I'd say that your first language is Spanish.

We see many applications each year from applicants who report that their first language is something other than English.

LizzyM said:

No, what I'm saying is that the gpa is displayed to two decimal places. Sure there is a psychological jump from 3.59 to 3.60 but most of us are scientists who know that there isn't anything magical about that extra 0.01.

Click to expand...

Got it. Thanks.

Ari

LizzyM said:

Your gpa is on the low side. Your next step may hinge on your MCAT. However, I would be very careful with working 50 hours and volunteering while taking classes. Will you work to support yourself in medical school? Could you see yourself borrowing living expenses for 5 years of medical school? If so, you might want to consider a one-year SMP to show that you can do handle the science curriculum.

A M.S. or MPH might be another option...but given a 3.0 bcpm, I'd suggest the SMP. If you are on the fence about medicine though, the M.S. in biology or chemistry may be more marketable.

Click to expand...

I know that I definitely want to go into medicine, so the marketability of my M.S. degree (it would be in Bio) outside of the medical field doesn't really worry me. My thought is to take the courses at the University which I work at. Many of the graduate courses and medical courses overlap (i.e. Human Physiology, Immunology). Although this wouldn't be a formal SMP by any means, I was hoping to take 2 courses/semester and cut back on my hours at work. Again, I know that I want to go into medicine, but for a number of financial reasons (including having an ill family member), I would rather not move away right now to do a formal SMP. Also, since the med school I work at is my first choice (although I am by no means only applying here), how would the adcomm here look at this decision, since they are familiar with the courses? Sorry if this is confusing, I just want to know what my next steps should be before it's too late. Thanks a lot!