ADCOMS: Semi-Solicited Advice [Part II]

[LizzyM]

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Hi Lizzy,

As I mentioned in a post a while ago, I'm going into the application process at deficit because of a low GPA (2.98) from an ivy league because of a horrible first 1.5 years. I have a 36 on my mcat and I'm currently doing some post-bacc bio courses at a grad school (i know how ambivalent you are about grad courses, but coming from a literature major they've been absolutely fascinating 🙂 ). I'm obviously trying to play up whatever attributes I can to balance out the low GPA (hopefully not too shamelessly).

My actual question is about talking about ECs like research and clinical experience and if they can ever work against each other. I come from a critically underserved (medically) region on the border of Mexico (yes, i'm hispanic) and i've spent some time working with local doctors in high school and during my college summers to try and raise awareness about preventative medicine, particularly with diabetes. I really like that educational aspect of community medicine and part of me wouldn't be opposed to going back and working in my hometown. However, I've also done research since I was a teenager in 3 different labs and I'm currently hoping to have two papers approved for publication from my current research job. The other part of me is kind of leaning towards academic medicine. In reality, I don't want to make up my mind until I've been through basic sciences, rotations, etc (fingers crossed!). In my limited experience, they seem like such polar aspects of medicine and I'm worried that expressing interest in one will negate the sincerity of my interest in the other.
My interest in medicine comes from so many different places--community health, my work as a nurses assistant, the lab bench, studying the interplay of literature and medicine--and while I'd love to talk about all of them, I feel like I'd be more successful by focusing on one or two. Any thoughts?

P.S. Sorry for going on and on 😀

Doctors frequently wear several hats. Doing bench research as a PI and being a community organizer might be two hats too many but a career in academic medicine in an underserved area (San Antonio comes to mind) with some role in community health is entirely feasible. Clinical research (currently there is a thread on the topic here in the pre-allo forum) may be an outlet for your scientific interest while pursuing efforts to improve the health of the community as well (studies of the outcomes of community-wide interventions and research into health disparities are very big right now).

 

[LizzyM]

Dear Adcomm's,

Just one of the many questions running through my mind.

1. I have a BS in Bus & Admin., but finished with a really low Cum GPA 2.19. (Started in Sci for 2 yrs w/ 3.6~, changed to Business and went down form there. Longg story, but do have a 3.6 in Sci in that degree) I am getting a second UG in Bio (retaking all sci's) and will grad in may 09 with 2nd UG. I will make a 4.0 during this 2nd UG, but that will only pull my GPA up to about 2.7-3.0. But I will be applying next summer for 09 matriculation. My question is will an adcomm even look at my other criteria before stamping rejected?

Thanks

(I am doing a laundry list of other items to help prove myself, but just wondering if they will even look at it all b/c of the bad GPA)

If everything is lumped into a single gpa it is going to be tough to make the effort to even open your file.

I also don't see the point of repeating science courses if you had a science gpa of 3.6. I think you're going to need to discuss your reasons for starting out in sciences, switching to business & back to medicine, if anyone even gets as far as your PS.

You've got yourself in a pickle and I'm at a loss as to how this may play out.

 

[LizzyM]

Hi Lizzy, thanks for youre responses 🙂

I have 2 more questions..sorry....

1) If they dont take my courses as physics prerequisites from engineering, is it ok if I take them by the time I get in (hypothetically), ie. 2008. So I can take them part time this year/by correspondance or something like that? Or does it depend on each school? So essentially my BCPM average will not include physics.

It is my understanding that this is OK. One very successful applicant this year had not completed a year of biology before taking the MCAT and applying-- with great success.

2) I notice that a lot of people are asking you this but I just want some advice for the kind of gpa I have...

my first two years of engineering were really bad 2.68 and 2.61. Last two years were 3.75 and 3.75. Post bacc year 3.9. However that still makes my overall gpa only 3.34.

You gave an approximate number of >3.39 in an earlier post. Will my marks cut it? Or will my application get thrown out because I didnt make the cut off?

Thank you so much for your advice, it is much much appreciated.

Different schools and different adcom members have different cut points. My mental cut point is about 0.3-0.5 below the average gpa for matriculants at my school. I might go lower if the applicant has an engineering degree, graduated from a school that I know has no grade inflation, or is an older non-trad who had a non-science undergrad degree. At my school, every application gets eyeballed for 20-30 minutes by at least one member of the adcom and usualy gets a second & third set of eyeballs before an interview is granted. After the interviews, there are many more eyeballs applied to the application before an admission decision is made.

Some schools, I suspect, use computer generated algorithms rather than eyeballs, and you may have less of a chance at some of those school, particularly if they are higher tier.

 

[LizzyM]

This thread alone makes me want to donate to SDN.

Anyway! I have a question about the PS:

How much detail about activities should you give in the PS before jumping into what you got from it via anecdotes?

Does every person who receives the PS also receive the rest of the application including the activity summaries? Or will some background information/description of responsibilities need to be given?

Also, a follow-up question regarding starting PS with quotations. Do applicants usually pull it off? Or does it end up taking too much space to explain the significance?

Thanks in advance!

Well, we hope that you will think enough of SDN to become a member.

What an adcom member gets at any particular school is impossible to say. At my school, the "reader" gets the whole file. Each of us differs in how we choose to read. Some read the LORs first, some go to the essay first, some look at the thing from front to back starting with page 1 of the AMCAS and going through in order which means they read the experiences section before the PS. You can't predict. Don't duplicate information and understand that if someone is confused by the PS, the first instinct is to look at the experience section for an explanation of the activity being described.

Quotes usually come across as a bit of intellectual snobbery. "Oh, look at me. I'm so well read, I've included an epigraph in my essay to pique your interest."🙄 It takes a very, very strong writer to pull it off without looking like a twit.

 

[LizzyM]

Hi,

I'm applying to MSTPs this summer. The decision to go to med school is one I made at the end of college (I love love research, but I also love working with people and the research I did wasn't applicable enough). I have a first author cognition publication and 2 other abstracts/conference presentations. I'm finishing prereqs while working full time as a chemistry teacher (I'm in Teach for America, which is very high pressure) and studying for the MCAT. I'm taking it in July. I have a lot more research than clinical experience, but I will start hospital volunteering/shadowing in May, and I hope it's something I can send updates about as I apply.

My GPA from undergrad is 3.7 at an ivy league and nearly 4.0 since then in postbacc and education grad classes. My initial MCAT diagnostic was a 33, and I have a lot of studying ahead of me so I'm hoping it will go up a lot.

I'm totally committed to this route, but applying this summer will be a huge crunch for me. I will still need a quarter of physics and maybe a semester of chem, although I took all the way through orgo (just placed into an acclerated 1 semester general chem). Will not taking the MCAT until July really hurt my chances? Enough that I should wait another year, even though I really want to get started? I just won't do as well on it if I take it in June.

I'm working at a clinical neuroscience lab next year. I'm worried about my lack of clnical experience, too, but again, I'm going to start volunteering in May and some experience will come with this job. Previously I've worked with some autistic patients and worked in a veterinary clinic (orthogonal, I know, but experience with blood/guts/clients..i thought about going to veterinary school before I discovered the human brain.). My record is strongly service-oriented.

Suggestions about this timeline or my chances? I'm planning to apply broadly-over 20 schools. Thanks so much.

My instinct is to say that you will be OK. Your application will be in the "second wave" and it will be one of those that makes the adcom members shake their heads and say, "there are still so many excellent applicants; the quality isn't declining as the year goes on as we might expect." I'd give you an interview, even if it meant seeing you on the last interview day of the season....


Good luck! I'm going to look for your meows on the board as the season progresses.

Oops -- what I said is based on straight MD only. If you are wanting to go MSTP, I'd suggest converting your lab gig to 2 years and holding back on the application process until Spring 2008.

 

[farrago]

Lizzy,

I have three pretty bad semesters (out of nine) – a 3.0 (three classes), a 3.0, and a 2.5. The other semesters are a 3.9, 3.6, 3.7, 3.7, 3.75, 4.0, 4.0. Now, on AMCAS, when I enter these by grade-level (credit-wise), I end up with GPAs of Fresh: 3.78, Soph: 3.25, Junior: 3.0 and Senior: ~ 3.9 , which looks pretty terrible. So, would you mainly focus on this, or the semester breakdown, which is pretty good first two semesters, then mostly the crappy semesters, and then very good last three semesters?

My overall GPA is probably going to be a 3.52 and a 3.44 BCMP (4 C's) – I could probably squeeze in a couple of classes over the summer, and add about 0.03 points to my GPA, but would it even matter from your perspective – a 3.52 vs a 3.55? (It would make ME feel marginally better 😳 )

And, how much would a really high MCAT help me – would, say, a 39 vs a 33 make a big difference (in terms of the academic qualifications, especially since the C's are science classes)? Can I over-compensate with a high Lizzy number? What aspect of the application has the most impact with these mediocre (borderline?) numbers to at least get an interview? Cool ECs to pique your interest? Well-written PS? Or does everything have to be super-humanly, exceptionally, amazingly awesome?

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[LizzyM]

Lizzy,

I have three pretty bad semesters (out of nine) – a 3.0 (three classes), a 3.0, and a 2.5. The other semesters are a 3.9, 3.6, 3.7, 3.7, 3.75, 4.0, 4.0. Now, on AMCAS, when I enter these by grade-level (credit-wise), I end up with GPAs of Fresh: 3.78, Soph: 3.25, Junior: 3.0 and Senior: ~ 3.9 , which looks pretty terrible. So, would you mainly focus on this, or the semester breakdown, which is pretty good first two semesters, then mostly the crappy semesters, and then very good last three semesters?

On the AMCAS we don't see grades by semester but only by year. So, the slide for 2 years & then a rebound is what it is...

My overall GPA is probably going to be a 3.52 and a 3.44 BCMP (4 C’s) – I could probably squeeze in a couple of classes over the summer, and add about 0.03 points to my GPA, but would it even matter from your perspective – a 3.52 vs a 3.55? (It would make ME feel marginally better 😳 )

The extra 0.03 is not going to impress me.

And, how much would a really high MCAT help me – would, say, a 39 vs a 33 make a big difference (in terms of the academic qualifications, especially since the C’s are science classes)? Can I over-compensate with a high Lizzy number?

If your gpa is 0.2 less than the average for the school, then your MCAT needs to be 1 point higher than the avg MCAT for the school to compensate. (Lizzy number is gpa(10)+ MCAT) So, an MCAT of 33 would give you a Lizzy number that would put many schools within your reach. I do wonder if someone seeing an MCAT of 39 and a 3.55 gpa with Cs in science classes might wonder if you are a really smart person who doesn't work hard in the day-to-day world but who tests well. So, yeah, there can be some eyebrows raised when the gpa and MCAT don't seem to be correlated.

What aspect of the application has the most impact with these mediocre (borderline?) numbers to at least get an interview? Cool ECs to pique your interest? Well-written PS? Or does everything have to be super-humanly, exceptionally, amazingly awesome?

Thanks for your thoughts.

We don't yet know your MCAT so I don't know if you are average (a little below avg on the gpa/a little above avg on the MCAT) or if you are mediocre. Interesting, unusual ECs or life situation, well written PS, something out of the usual will sometimes make us say, "let's take a look" (grant an interview).

 

[rtm2008]

I am currently a junior with a 3.82 GPA (3.83 BCMP) and have a decent amount of clinical/other actives, unfortunately I have been unable to do research up to now due to a variety of reasons, and wont have any before senior year (I have research set up for both semesters of senior year). Just wondering if I should make any mention of that in the application, and how much not having any research prior to senior year will hurt me.

Thanks for your help

 

[NewYorkDoc]

Lizzy, I see that you said that you dont see by semester, but by year. You don't look at semester grades at all?

 

[LizzyM]

I am currently a junior with a 3.82 GPA (3.83 BCMP) and have a decent amount of clinical/other actives, unfortunately I have been unable to do research up to now due to a variety of reasons, and wont have any before senior year (I have research set up for both semesters of senior year). Just wondering if I should make any mention of that in the application, and how much not having any research prior to senior year will hurt me.

Thanks for your help

What did you do with your summers? That's when many applicants fit in research. Junior year is also good.

As many as 86% of matriculants at the top schools have research experience. Is it essential for admission? No, obviously not unless the proportion of matriculants with research experience = 100%. Is it merely coincidental ? (I would guess that a similar proportion of applicants have had music lessons but that's certainly not a requirement for admission although many people will put it on their list of ECs.) At some schools, research may be all but required (a few exceptions are made). At other schools, it is considered a positive attribute that might help you get an interview, but isn't an absolute deal breaker. If you don't have research experience by the date on which you submit the AMCAS then you might be at a disadvantage at some of the top tier research schools, particularly those schools that put a big emphasis on student research projects. If your goal is a mid-tier school that does not put a high priority on student research, then you might be ok with your plan as it stands.

 

[LizzyM]

Lizzy, I see that you said that you dont see by semester, but by year. You don't look at semester grades at all?

Here's how the AMCAS displays grades:

Seven columns: Academic year, BCPM gpa, BCPM credits taken, AO (all other) gpa, AO credits taken, Total gpa, total credits taken.

Each row is an academic year. Then there is a total undergrad followed by rows for post-bac and/or grad school.

Further along there is a display of every course taken along with the grade earned and number of credits. These usually appear in chronological order although sometimes it is not exactly chrono (not sure why). I think that there is a column in that display that shows whether it was first semester, second semester or summer semester along with the name of the school. In essence it is your transcript but there is no gpa by semester as there often is on the transcript itself. I'd need to have way too much time on my hands to want to figure out gpa semester by semester given the information as it is provided to me on the AMCAS application. So, that's how we assess what we have.

 

[FON86]

Here's how the AMCAS displays grades:

THANKS.

i was wondering if doing bad in dual enrollment(no prereq classes taken) matter at all to adcoms when your cumulative GPA still comes out to a 3.5 (~3.7 after high school GPA)

 

[NewYorkDoc]

Thank you Lizzy! What a burden off my back that semester gpa isnt displayed, or taken into account. This will help my application. Thank you again!😀 👍

 

[chickenlittle84]

Hi Lizzy! You mentioned in a previous post that you are willing to look at a GPA that is .3-.5 below your school's mean. I just wanted to clarify what this means. If your school's mean GPA is a 3.7, you are willing to consider applications with a GPA as low as 3.2?

You also suggested that this was especially true in reference to certain schools. I was wondering if you could give some examples of schools that you generally do this for.

Thanks for your help!

 

[meowkat444]

My instinct is to say that you will be OK. Your application will be in the "second wave" and it will be one of those that makes the adcom members shake their heads and say, "there are still so many excellent applicants; the quality isn't declining as the year goes on as we might expect." I'd give you an interview, even if it meant seeing you on the last interview day of the season....


Good luck! I'm going to look for your meows on the board as the season progresses.

Oops -- what I said is based on straight MD only. If you are wanting to go MSTP, I'd suggest converting your lab gig to 2 years and holding back on the application process until Spring 2008.

Thank you so much for replying to me today! Input is so helpful. I sort of have a clarifying question... you suggested I push application back a year and get 2 years in a lab. I actually already have 2 years in another lab already, plus summer research, plus affiliation with yet another lab in undergrad. So actually, this would be my 4th, and 2nd really intense lab experience. My question for you was whether you suggested waiting a year because I didn't have enough research, or simply because the whole process is so competitive that I need to work on other things to make sure my application is better. If it's the first reason--then is 4 lab involvements (2 very extensive) really not enough? If it's the latter, then--maybe a good point 😎

The feeling i am trying to convey is shattered by the blue dude's sunglasses. Ah, well.

 

[LizzyM]

THANKS.

i was wondering if doing bad in dual enrollment(no prereq classes taken) matter at all to adcoms when your cumulative GPA still comes out to a 3.5 (~3.7 after high school GPA)

Doing badly is never good. If this happened earlier in your academic career and there is a continuously improving trend then you might be OK.

 

[LizzyM]

Thank you so much for replying to me today! Input is so helpful. I sort of have a clarifying question... you suggested I push application back a year and get 2 years in a lab. I actually already have 2 years in another lab already, plus summer research, plus affiliation with yet another lab in undergrad. So actually, this would be my 4th, and 2nd really intense lab experience. My question for you was whether you suggested waiting a year because I didn't have enough research, or simply because the whole process is so competitive that I need to work on other things to make sure my application is better. If it's the first reason--then is 4 lab involvements (2 very extensive) really not enough? If it's the latter, then--maybe a good point 😎

The feeling i am trying to convey is shattered by the blue dude's sunglasses. Ah, well.

On an MSTP application, you can never have too much lab experience. However, the real reason I suggested waiting out a year is that whereas you could get away with being in the second wave of appies for medical school, the MSTP program has far fewer interview days and, at least at my school, the last interview day is a full month earlier than the last MD interview day. So, whereas I'd fit you in even on the last possible day, the MSTP program might not have that luxury-- even if you come in under the deadline you may be "too late". Furthermore, having been out of the lab for a year or two with Teach for America, it might be good to have at least a year (more like 18 mos) of research to talk about in your interviews. Finally, lack of any clinical experience can scuttle an MSTP application so be sure to have a little something in that regard.

 

[phantomx87]

Dear AdComs:

First off, I want to say that I am thoroughly impressed and encouraged by all the interaction and honesty in this forum. I'm a long-time reader but first-time poster. Anyways, on to the questions:

Would you say it's better to briefly address any negatives in your PS or simply not mention any negatives at all (make the entire PS positive)? (This question is not implying that an applicant is simply ignoring any poor performance, but rather trying to emphasize/bolster the merits of his or her other credentials.)

If it is better to address negatives (poor academic performance, lack of exposure, or any other deviation from "prototypical" applications), what approach should be taken? Is it better to briefly, but brutally honestly, talk about the lapses, or should an applicant take a more "glossed-over" (can't think of a more appropriate term) tone?

I appreciate all of the opinions and insight given (not just to this question, but to everything posted on this forum)! 😀

 

[LizzyM]

Dear AdComs:

First off, I want to say that I am thoroughly impressed and encouraged by all the interaction and honesty in this forum. I'm a long-time reader but first-time poster. Anyways, on to the questions:

Would you say it's better to briefly address any negatives in your PS or simply not mention any negatives at all (make the entire PS positive)? (This question is not implying that an applicant is simply ignoring any poor performance, but rather trying to emphasize/bolster the merits of his or her other credentials.)

If it is better to address negatives (poor academic performance, lack of exposure, or any other deviation from "prototypical" applications), what approach should be taken? Is it better to briefly, but brutally honestly, talk about the lapses, or should an applicant take a more "glossed-over" (can't think of a more appropriate term) tone?

I appreciate all of the opinions and insight given (not just to this question, but to everything posted on this forum)! 😀

If there is a major issue that puts your record into perspective, then you should describe that in your PS (I am thinking, for example of a guy who withdrew from all of his classes early in the semester and skipped the next semester due to a catastrophic accident.) Otherwise, I think it is much better to put on a happy face and accentuate the positive (stop me before I start singing 60s show tunes )

 

[WoodyInvincible]

Dear Adcom,

I was planning to apply this June but am seriously considering applying next year instead. The main reason would be to increase my EC's so that my application would be more complete. I don't have any research xp. My clinical xp includes volunteering approximately 180 hours in an ER and shadowing two different docs for a day each. I've only been active in one club (held a leadership role though), been a coach for a high school football team for a year, and been a preceptor for a class. Do you think my EC's are sufficient or would I be better served by spending a year adding to them?
My GPA is 3.66, BCPM of 3.71, and an mcat score of 33N (9V, 12P, 12B).

 

[st0w]

Adcoms -

As far as LORs, I realize that it is best (if not outright necessary) to have at least one from a professor in the pre-med science courses. I am both a transfer and a non-traditional; some of my prereqs (bio and calc, plus first half of inorg chem) were taken during my first year as an undergrad, at a different institution from where my degree was granted.

My adviser has suggested that committees overwhelmingly prefer letters from professors at the institution that granted one's degree. The only recent prereq I took was Orgo last year, to make up for a bad first attempt when I worked full-time to pay tuition and took too heavy a course load. Any LOR obtained from either Orgo lecture or lab professors would be from my undergrad degree-granting institution, and recent, but only mildly personal at best.

Alternatively, I could get a VERY personal, very strong letter from my freshman year Bio prof (smaller school, plus I didn't have to work due to much lower tuition, and was able to spend a lot more time around the labs and working with her outside class) - but it would be eight years old and from a different university.

Which of the two options is better? Should I try for both, or would it seem like I was unable to apply myself similarly at the second institution? My grades weren't quite as good at the second school, however it was due to work affecting Orgo and classes, which I do mention in my PS. Combined overall AMCAS/BCPM both 3.4 including both Orgo grades; would be 3.6 overall, 3.84BCPM without first orgo grades. Both are very good private universities, not community college. I took the MCAT this past August, and got a 35R (11 PS, 12 VR, 12 BS).

Thanks!

 

[newnewness]

Hi Lizzy,

I'm a late-20s non-trad. I've had great luck with interviews, but have been waitlisted at 8 out of 10 of the schools I interviewed at. I didn't act incredibly different at the interviews that got me accepted, however I think I may have acted overly casual and comfortable in a few instances. I am currently waitlisted at the only two schools I want to attend and wonder if there are some red flags in my application that I am unaware of? My GPA is 3.7 total, 3.8 science, MCAT is 33P, and during my 2 years of postbacc and 1 lag year I've done 1.5 yrs clinical research, 0.5 yrs hospital volunteering, and 2 yrs basic science research employment. I majored in humanities, and did some writing and photo-related extracurriculars when in college the first time around. I have not done any other volunteer work whatsoever, and bombed my last class of postbacc studies because of work and the mcat. What do you think my red flags are? Is there anything I should say in a letter to the dean that might increase my likelihood of acceptance off the waitlist?

Thanks.

 

[dabiophyz]

Hi Lizzy,

First, thank you for taking the time to answer these questions. I am applying this cycle, and am not sure what to make of my situation. My GPA is lackluster (3.2-3.3). I am taking the MCAT, and if I am consistent with practice exams I will be int he 35 range, hopefully a bit higher. I have good research experience, good ecs, and an internship at the NIH. My recs will be very strong, and I think my personal statement is on point. How much will my GPA hold me back? I ran into a bit of bad luck getting sick spring of my freshman year, a friend passing away fall of my sophomore year, and my grandfather getting sick after that. I don't want it to seem like a string of excuses, but I was wondering how I should include these things in my application, and what you think my chances are this year.Thanks!

 

[srs58s]

Hi adcoms,

This is in regards to LoRs. I volunteer in the OR of an Ophthalmology center and I've met all the doctors, did some OR shadowing, had conversations with them and stuff, but I feel most comfortable asking a letter from a nurse there, since she knows me and interact with me on a more personal level. She also knows all of the shadowing/clinical experiences I've had and knows more about my contribution to the OR than the doctors.

How will admissions committees view this letter? Would you recommend I try to get a letter from a ophthalmologist there instead?

 

[BlackSails]

Hi adcoms,

This is in regards to LoRs. I volunteer in the OR of an Ophthalmology center and I've met all the doctors, did some OR shadowing, had conversations with them and stuff, but I feel most comfortable asking a letter from a nurse there, since she knows me and interact with me on a more personal level. She also knows all of the shadowing/clinical experiences I've had and knows more about my contribution to the OR than the doctors.

How will admissions committees view this letter? Would you recommend I try to get a letter from a ophthalmologist there instead?

In my premed opinion, a letter from a nurse will raise the question: Why dont you want to be a nurse?

 

[fyodor06]

In my premed opinion, a letter from a nurse will raise the question: Why dont you want to be a nurse?

i realize this is lizzy's thread and my opinion only comes from a pre-med perspective, but i say go with the nurse. you'd be much better off submitting a letter from someone who can actually say something meaningful about you than having a doctor reiterate your resume. besides, nurses work with doctor's day in and out--good and bad--can probably offer interesting insight into who they would like to work with. at least that's my opinion. but maybe that's just my rationalization for having my nurse boss submit a letter on my behalf.

 

[pcu]

Hiya

Graduated with BA in film studies from Pitt 2002 (2.65 gpa). Worked in a restaurant for a eyar then managed an AmeriCorps office for 2 years. Currently I'll graduate from a diploma nursing school (it is accredited) in Dec 07. Nursing gpa about 3.4. Overall gpa at about 2.9 with around 210 credits. Of note (at least to me) I did get an A in Bio 1 from a CC as well as A's in microbio, A&P 1 and A&P2 as part of my nursing curriculum that was completed at a 4 year university (Chatham).

I then have to work for the hospital for 2 years as part of free tuition. In that time I will take the majority of my BCMP courses and I plan on getting all A's of course to hopefully bring my gpa up to about 3.1 maaaaaybe 3.2. Does my most recent work have a snowballs chance in hell at overcoming that overall gpa? All my recent BCMP will be at or very near 4.0 all the while nursing 36 hours a week.

So I will also have my nursing experience. I know that will lend me confidence in my abilities to excel in a clinical setting.

That should also parlay into some very good LOR's.

I have also shadowed extensively and that will not be a problem going forward either given my access. I can even say I have shadowed CRNA's, NP's, PA's etc etc to be sure and the one overriding thought every time was that I want to be a doctor.

Of course I know I will have to ace the MCAT as well.

So what do you think? I'm sure I left stuff out. I am hoping to be considered to start fall 2011.

 

[shevie]

Hi, I’m new here and need some advice. (“what are my chances?” kind of advice…) Heres my story
So I was pre-med throughout college but after graduating in 05, I took a job teaching high school English (I really needed a change of scenery). During this year off I enrolled in Kaplan, but truth be told, my mind and heart were not there so I basically blew it off, justifying it in my mind by telling myself “I’m not interested in making a ten-year commitment right now, but being that I still love medicine, I guess I’ll go to PA school right now, I can do most of what I am interested in as a PA temporarily, and reconsider MD 5-10 years from now.” I applied to 3 PA schools on a whim a week before the deadline and got into all 3 (was supposed to start in Aug 06). Last winter while teaching though, I also met my current husband, who was in college in Maryland, and we got married and I moved here for him to finish school and was fortunate enough to be offered a position at the NIH. During this time, I have come to the conclusion that being a PA will never placate me and my quest for knowledge and desire to become a physician. Sooooooooo I want to throw my hat in for 08, (Plan on taking August 14 MCAT) but I want to know where I stand.
I would go to any school in the NY/NJ/CT/MD/DC area (around 20 schools)
Here are my stats:
21/F
-Bio Major, 3.5 GPA, 3.7 Science GPA
It may not be the highest GPA out there, but i consider myself pretty well-rounded...I have >170 and we only needed 120 to graduate. I know my grades are mediocre but I never got below a B- i anything...
- Deans list for 3 years in college
-Clinical Research-2 summers, 1 published article , 1 semester doing a research internship through AECOM and the NY DOH
-Lab Research -2 summers (same lab), 1 published article, Currently completing a yearlong post-bac research internship at the NIH (hopefully will have an article out within the next six wks)

-2000+ hours Nursing Home volunteering (since I was in 10th grade)
-appx 300 hrs shadowing experience (a little of everything...Internal Medicine, ID, Cardiology, Nephrology, Transplant Surgery, Vascular Surgery, Neurosurgery)
-extensive Tutoring, T.A., and teaching experience
-very involved with EC's in college (section editor for school newspaper, pre-med club, bio club president for two years)
In terms of public vs private schools the tuition isnt that much of an issue for me.

So...Where do I stand, competition wise? And what MCAT score do I need to get in?
Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!






See what's free at AOL.com.

 

[LizzyM]

Dear Adcom,

I was planning to apply this June but am seriously considering applying next year instead. The main reason would be to increase my EC's so that my application would be more complete. I don't have any research xp. My clinical xp includes volunteering approximately 180 hours in an ER and shadowing two different docs for a day each. I've only been active in one club (held a leadership role though), been a coach for a high school football team for a year, and been a preceptor for a class. Do you think my EC's are sufficient or would I be better served by spending a year adding to them?
My GPA is 3.66, BCPM of 3.71, and an mcat score of 33N (9V, 12P, 12B).

The usual, "apply early, apply broadly". The lack of research experience might hurt you in the top research schools (Harvard, Hopkins, Baylor, USCD, etc) but otherwise you should be in good shape.

 

[LizzyM]

Adcoms -

As far as LORs, I realize that it is best (if not outright necessary) to have at least one from a professor in the pre-med science courses. I am both a transfer and a non-traditional; some of my prereqs (bio and calc, plus first half of inorg chem) were taken during my first year as an undergrad, at a different institution from where my degree was granted.

My adviser has suggested that committees overwhelmingly prefer letters from professors at the institution that granted one's degree. The only recent prereq I took was Orgo last year, to make up for a bad first attempt when I worked full-time to pay tuition and took too heavy a course load. Any LOR obtained from either Orgo lecture or lab professors would be from my undergrad degree-granting institution, and recent, but only mildly personal at best.

Alternatively, I could get a VERY personal, very strong letter from my freshman year Bio prof (smaller school, plus I didn't have to work due to much lower tuition, and was able to spend a lot more time around the labs and working with her outside class) - but it would be eight years old and from a different university.

Which of the two options is better? Should I try for both, or would it seem like I was unable to apply myself similarly at the second institution? My grades weren't quite as good at the second school, however it was due to work affecting Orgo and classes, which I do mention in my PS. Combined overall AMCAS/BCPM both 3.4 including both Orgo grades; would be 3.6 overall, 3.84BCPM without first orgo grades. Both are very good private universities, not community college. I took the MCAT this past August, and got a 35R (11 PS, 12 VR, 12 BS).

Thanks!

Oh, I'm dizzy. Frankly, I don't pay much attention to the school where the LOR writer is from. I'm more interested in who the writer is (academic rank, higher is better), how long they've known you, the context in which they've gotten to know you (classroom, lab, workplace, etc), and their assessment of your academic talent and your work ethic/morals, personality.

 

[LizzyM]

Hi Lizzy,

I'm a late-20s non-trad. I've had great luck with interviews, but have been waitlisted at 8 out of 10 of the schools I interviewed at. I didn't act incredibly different at the interviews that got me accepted, however I think I may have acted overly casual and comfortable in a few instances. I am currently waitlisted at the only two schools I want to attend and wonder if there are some red flags in my application that I am unaware of? My GPA is 3.7 total, 3.8 science, MCAT is 33P, and during my 2 years of postbacc and 1 lag year I've done 1.5 yrs clinical research, 0.5 yrs hospital volunteering, and 2 yrs basic science research employment. I majored in humanities, and did some writing and photo-related extracurriculars when in college the first time around. I have not done any other volunteer work whatsoever, and bombed my last class of postbacc studies because of work and the mcat. What do you think my red flags are? Is there anything I should say in a letter to the dean that might increase my likelihood of acceptance off the waitlist?

Thanks.

You got accepted at at least one school? And you got waitlisted at 8 schools? There is nothing wrong with you although you seem exceptionally unlucky. If your interviews were really bad, you would have been rejected...

What to say to the Dean: You are available, you will be there at a moment's notice if selected, and you love the school because (here you name one or two things that make the school very attractive to you). There are people out there holding 6 offers. As they give up all but one, some schools will have openings. You should have a good shot at getting one of those spots.

 

[LizzyM]

Hi Lizzy,

First, thank you for taking the time to answer these questions. I am applying this cycle, and am not sure what to make of my situation. My GPA is lackluster (3.2-3.3). I am taking the MCAT, and if I am consistent with practice exams I will be int he 35 range, hopefully a bit higher. I have good research experience, good ecs, and an internship at the NIH. My recs will be very strong, and I think my personal statement is on point. How much will my GPA hold me back? I ran into a bit of bad luck getting sick spring of my freshman year, a friend passing away fall of my sophomore year, and my grandfather getting sick after that. I don't want it to seem like a string of excuses, but I was wondering how I should include these things in my application, and what you think my chances are this year.Thanks!

It's always something. Your gpa is a major drawback; the fact that you fall apart academically when stressed does give us pause... and the fact that you had 3 stressful semesters in a row....It does seem like a string of excuses. The big question is given a good MCAT (you hope) why couldn't you do better in everyday classroom work? Will you stay on an even keel in med school or will there be another string of catastrophies? This is what an adcom is going to be asking.

You have an uphill climb but might have a chance at some mid tier schools. (Calculate your Lizzy scores: gpa(10)+MCAT. Compare to the medical schools LizzyM score: gpa(10)+MCAT-1. Look for schools that have LizzyM scores that are equal to or less than your Lizzy score.)

 

[LizzyM]

Hi adcoms,

This is in regards to LoRs. I volunteer in the OR of an Ophthalmology center and I've met all the doctors, did some OR shadowing, had conversations with them and stuff, but I feel most comfortable asking a letter from a nurse there, since she knows me and interact with me on a more personal level. She also knows all of the shadowing/clinical experiences I've had and knows more about my contribution to the OR than the doctors.

How will admissions committees view this letter? Would you recommend I try to get a letter from a ophthalmologist there instead?

The rank of the letter writer matters. If this were an PhD nurse doing research in the OR, or if you were in a clinical setting where physicians are seen rarely (e.g.a family planning clinic run by midwives) then maybe the nurse's opinion would carry some weight. Otherwise, it seems as if you didn't have the courage to ask a doc for a letter and instead asked a lower ranked allied health professional. I don't believe that interviewers would ask "why don't you want to go into nursing?" but I still would encourage you to have a letter from a doc.

 

[LizzyM]

i realize this is lizzy's thread and my opinion only comes from a pre-med perspective, but i say go with the nurse. you'd be much better off submitting a letter from someone who can actually say something meaningful about you than having a doctor reiterate your resume. besides, nurses work with doctor's day in and out--good and bad--can probably offer interesting insight into who they would like to work with. at least that's my opinion. but maybe that's just my rationalization for having my nurse boss submit a letter on my behalf.

A nurse boss is a different critter than a nurse who is around when you are shadowing surgical specialists in the OR.

 

[LizzyM]

There is a "what are my chances" thread sticky at the top of this forum. I'm not going to answer anymore "what are my chances" questions. My experience is just too limited to do justice to these questions and I'd hate to be overly pessamistic because my experience has been limited to top tier schools.

 

[sandyblonde11]

Hi Lizzy,

I have another question about LOR (you answered one for me awhile back).

I have 2 options for a letter from a Non-science professor. Both are profs for (hardcore) courses that are a GE requirement. The GE, from at least my point of view, is unlike most--it's a series of classes in which an A is almost unheard of, and the first quarters are more units than the rest (and hence more work). I'm now heavily involved in a school-funded EC that tutors students through this series. So, here's the deal:

Prof 1: first quarter
well-established professor, remembers me as a student (which was 2 years ago), got a B+ in the class

Prof 2: second quarter
PhD but younger/less established, somewhat remembers me from 2 years ago, got an A in the class.

I want to ask for a letter from Prof 1, but I am worried that most Adcoms will look at the grade and not have the ideal understanding of how it's an unusually hard course. Of course my prof will likely address this sort of thing, but I want to know if adcoms would prefer to see a decent letter from a prof in whose class i received an A.

THANK YOU for all of your advice on this thread!

 

[pcu]

Hi Lizzy, how about this.

I am currently in nursing school. Its a UPMC hospital based diploma school. Their school is accredited. It gets a little tricky though. At the school itself they hire nurses with MSN's as faculty to teach the core nursing credits (which again are in fact accredited). There are other classes that are subcontracted (for lack of a better word) out to another 4 year accredited university (Chatham). These include more traditional college courses, Microbio, A&P1, A&P2, Human growth and development, Diversity, etc.

So, will adcom's have any issue with ay of these credits?

One more thing, I ahve psoriatic arthritis. I'm 28. Any idea what impact this might have on anything? I know my current Dr will sign off on a physical for me, he better as he has encouraged me to a degree to pursue my interest). He signed off for my nursing school/career. No one would ever know except that my nails are disformed/discolored. Anyway not sure what type of stuff one must disclose on these apps pertaining to medical Hx.

 

[LizzyM]

Hi Lizzy,

I have another question about LOR (you answered one for me awhile back).

I have 2 options for a letter from a Non-science professor. Both are profs for (hardcore) courses that are a GE requirement. The GE, from at least my point of view, is unlike most--it's a series of classes in which an A is almost unheard of, and the first quarters are more units than the rest (and hence more work). I'm now heavily involved in a school-funded EC that tutors students through this series. So, here's the deal:

Prof 1: first quarter
well-established professor, remembers me as a student (which was 2 years ago), got a B+ in the class

Prof 2: second quarter
PhD but younger/less established, somewhat remembers me from 2 years ago, got an A in the class.

I want to ask for a letter from Prof 1, but I am worried that most Adcoms will look at the grade and not have the ideal understanding of how it's an unusually hard course. Of course my prof will likely address this sort of thing, but I want to know if adcoms would prefer to see a decent letter from a prof in whose class i received an A.

THANK YOU for all of your advice on this thread!

Absolutely go with Professor #1.

 

[LizzyM]

Hi Lizzy, how about this.

I am currently in nursing school. Its a UPMC hospital based diploma school. Their school is accredited. It gets a little tricky though. At the school itself they hire nurses with MSN's as faculty to teach the core nursing credits (which again are in fact accredited). There are other classes that are subcontracted (for lack of a better word) out to another 4 year accredited university (Chatham). These include more traditional college courses, Microbio, A&P1, A&P2, Human growth and development, Diversity, etc.

So, will adcom's have any issue with ay of these credits?

One more thing, I ahve psoriatic arthritis. I'm 28. Any idea what impact this might have on anything? I know my current Dr will sign off on a physical for me, he better as he has encouraged me to a degree to pursue my interest). He signed off for my nursing school/career. No one would ever know except that my nails are disformed/discolored. Anyway not sure what type of stuff one must disclose on these apps pertaining to medical Hx.

Do you already have a bachelor's degree. Do you intend to get a bachelor's degree after the nursing diploma? Why are you taking a spotin a nursing program if your goal is med school (your goal is medical school, isn't it?) Diploma school nursing courses may be acceptable to some medical schools & not others but they aren't going to seem as challenging as comparable courses done at a 4-year college. You aren't working on making the strongest case for yourself.

You will not be asked to reveal anything about your medical history. You will be asked to attest that you do not have a disability that would preclude you from performing the tasks required of a medical student.

 

[pcu]

Do you already have a bachelor's degree. Do you intend to get a bachelor's degree after the nursing diploma? Why are you taking a spotin a nursing program if your goal is med school (your goal is medical school, isn't it?) Diploma school nursing courses may be acceptable to some medical schools & not others but they aren't going to seem as challenging as comparable courses done at a 4-year college. You aren't working on making the strongest case for yourself.

You will not be asked to reveal anything about your medical history. You will be asked to attest that you do not have a disability that would preclude you from performing the tasks required of a medical student.

I went into nursing as it was the "safe" choice for me. I could finish in 22 months and it was free in return for 2 years of work. I didn't know if I liked health care. It was very much a shot in the dark based on a gut feeling. I actually wanted to do PA but with no health care experience and a 2.65 gpa that wasn't happening. So I went into nursing. Now that I see what this whole thing is all about I realize more and more that I was born to be a doctor. I always intended to be an advanced practice nurse ASAP but now after doing some shadowing I am realizing even that will not fulfill my desires.

I hold a BA from Pitt in film studies.

I'm sort of surprised that core nursing courses (med surg, critical care, OB/peds, etc) at a diploma school would be looked at any differently then those at a 4 year institution. In the end we all pass the NCLEX. My program (UPMC Shadyside SON) has some of the best NCLEX pass rates as well (97% last I checked). As I said they are accredited as well. Would being affiliated with one of the top UPMC hospitals also help? Maybe only more so at Pitt?

No disability so good there.

Thanks so much!

 

[LizzyM]

I went into nursing as it was the "safe" choice for me. I could finish in 22 months and it was free in return for 2 years of work. I didn't know if I liked health care. It was very much a shot in the dark based on a gut feeling. I actually wanted to do PA but with no health care experience and a 2.65 gpa that wasn't happening. So I went into nursing. Now that I see what this whole thing is all about I realize more and more that I was born to be a doctor. I always intended to be an advanced practice nurse ASAP but now after doing some shadowing I am realizing even that will not fulfill my desires.

I hold a BA from Pitt in film studies.

You are going to have some explaining as to why you have gone from one area of study (film) to an allied health profession to medicine. But you knew that.

I'm sort of surprised that core nursing courses (med surg, critical care, OB/peds, etc) at a diploma school would be looked at any differently then those at a 4 year institution. In the end we all pass the NCLEX. My program (UPMC Shadyside SON) has some of the best NCLEX pass rates as well (97% last I checked). As I said they are accredited as well. Would being affiliated with one of the top UPMC hospitals also help? Maybe only more so at Pitt?

Do you think that the courses you've taken as a diploma nurse are essentially equivalent and the exams and grading as stringent as the same courses offered at (for example) U Penn School of Nursing? Frankly, I don't believe that adcoms view courses taken at a diploma school the same as equivalent courses offered at a major university. After your disasterous undergrad career and this journey into nursing, the adcom is going to place the biggest focus on your performance in the pre-reqs and the MCAT. Doing well in a nursing school course in OB/peds will not count for much.🙁

Good luck!

 

[pcu]

You are going to have some explaining as to why you have gone from one area of study (film) to an allied health profession to medicine. But you knew that.



Do you think that the courses you've taken as a diploma nurse are essentially equivalent and the exams and grading as stringent as the same courses offered at (for example) U Penn School of Nursing? Frankly, I don't believe that adcoms view courses taken at a diploma school the same as equivalent courses offered at a major university. After your disasterous undergrad career and this journey into nursing, the adcom is going to place the biggest focus on your performance in the pre-reqs and the MCAT. Doing well in a nursing school course in OB/peds will not count for much.🙁

Good luck!

I can explain my foray into and out of film and nursing in greater detail if you are interested. Never sure who really wants to hear about that.

Anyway I can see your point on the comparison to UPenn. I guarantee I'd run circles around them though

I'm glad to hear that the adcoms will place the most emphasis on the BCMP and the MCAT cause I plan on killing em! That information tells me I still have plenty I can control regarding the outcome of all this over the next 4 years.

Thanks again

 

[LizzyM]

I can explain my foray into and out of film and nursing in greater detail if you are interested. Never sure who really wants to hear about that.

Save it for your Personal Statement.

Good luck

 

[ihopeididnt]

Hi,

I have a decision to make soon and would appreciate any advice you have to offer!

First, a little relevant background. I applied for Fall 2006 admission; I was
waitlisted and interviewed by two schools. I graduated with a 3.4 from a top school,have a 3.2 BCPM GPA and a 33 on the MCAT. During college, I tutored
math and reading and, during my senior year, taught science lab; I also
worked in the college house system as a manager, was an RA for the summer, and played violin in the school orchestra. Post college, I volunteered as a mentor and played in a city community orchestra. At the time of application, I had worked for two years after graduation in a molecular biology
laboratory. I had several blips throughout the application process, including losing an interview invite letter through a move, submitting a bit late (early August), not taking one Pre-req until Spring 2006 and writing what may be considered a somewhat militant AMCAS essay. In all honesty,
I put off thinking about med school because I didn't finish the MCAT when I took it the Spring before application and thought I had not done well enough to apply. By the time I received the score,I was already off-schedule with my university and the blocks just tumbled from there...

This time, I'd like to apply with my best foot forward.

A couple things have changed since the last time I applied: new job at a non-profit, a publication in a Chemistry journal, three science classes with A's,weekly shadowing of an internist, and volunteering in hospice care. I changed from mentoring to tutoring, too. Getting the clinical experience, as a side note,has made me even more convinced that I should go to medical school; I was skeptical of the idea as a check on the list before, but I would really recommend it as a potential inspiration or warning to anyone
considering this whole process.

My interest, post college, has been to work in public health. I think an MD/MPH is the correct path. Two months ago, I was feeling a bit antsy to get back to school,leading me to applied to MPH programs. I received
an acceptance at Michigan and a partial, possibly full scholarship. Now, my plans for applying for Fall 2008 admission are confused.

So, my question is: should I apply for Fall 2008 or wait the year and apply for 2009? One downside is that I'd have to take my MCATs again for the 2009 plan. I am aware that an MPH during an MD is one year instead of two, but the phrase "a bird in hand is worth two in the bush" comes to mind. Other than that, will medical schools perceive me negatively if I go in looking to defer? I need to ask Michigan if it is common to complete one year and then finish the other later, but I suspect it's not. I'm not really sure what to do and would appreciate any input. I hope to decide a plan of action in the
next week or so.

Thanks for your help!

 

[Old ortho]

I know every school is different on how they look at multiple MCAT's. Do most look at the latest score, or the highest score?

 

[LizzyM]

I know every school is different on how they look at multiple MCAT's. Do most look at the latest score, or the highest score?

My school has no policy on this. Some of us look at best - some of us look at most recent (usually the most recent is also the best). It is up to each adcom member.

 

[LizzyM]

My interest, post college, has been to work in public health. I think an MD/MPH is the correct path. Two months ago, I was feeling a bit antsy to get back to school,leading me to applied to MPH programs. I received
an acceptance at Michigan and a partial, possibly full scholarship. Now, my plans for applying for Fall 2008 admission are confused.

So, my question is: should I apply for Fall 2008 or wait the year and apply for 2009? One downside is that I'd have to take my MCATs again for the 2009 plan. I am aware that an MPH during an MD is one year instead of two, but the phrase "a bird in hand is worth two in the bush" comes to mind. Other than that, will medical schools perceive me negatively if I go in looking to defer? I need to ask Michigan if it is common to complete one year and then finish the other later, but I suspect it's not. I'm not really sure what to do and would appreciate any input. I hope to decide a plan of action in the
next week or so.

Thanks for your help!

Most schools have the policy that if you are enrolled in a degree granting program, you must graduate from that program before you matriculate in the med school. (Otherwise you are screwing with Michigan's graduation rate and taking their scholarship money without coming out the other end with the MPH.) So, if you apply to med schools this summer & the schools see that you have just begun a 2 year MPH, they won't touch you because there is no way you can matriculate in 2008. So, going to public health school means you will have to wait & apply in Summer 2008 for admission in Fall 2009. This actually works out the same as applying this summer for a 5 year MD/MPH.

 

[Ephesus]

Alright, I guess I will post here...

How is a medical school going to *honestly* look at a student with a mental illness? I am dx'ed with schizophrenia, paranoid type. I am stable and am fine. I know the ADA is out there, but I am sure liability on the medical school has to be taken into account. I want to do an MSTP program. My illness got in the way my first few years of college, but I am now moving on to a tier 1 university and am conflicted on what to do. MSTP has been my dream for some time, but I don't know if it is possible. Cf. http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=395448

Thanks,
Eph

 

[LizzyM]

Alright, I guess I will post here...

How is a medical school going to *honestly* look at a student with a mental illness? I am dx'ed with schizophrenia, paranoid type. I am stable and am fine. I know the ADA is out there, but I am sure liability on the medical school has to be taken into account. I want to do an MSTP program. My illness got in the way my first few years of college, but I am now moving on to a tier 1 university and am conflicted on what to do. MSTP has been my dream for some time, but I don't know if it is possible. Cf. http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=395448

Thanks,
Eph

I've never seen an applicant reveal such information. I imagine that the university lawyers and the psychiatrists on the adcom might be drawn into a conversation with the chief decision-makers if the admission decision were to be anyway influenced by such information. I think that the questions would hinge on the legality of basing an admission decision on this health issue and the probability that this chronic condition could carry a high likelihood of being unable to complete the course of study for the degree(s) as well as the likelihood that a relapse could cause an injury to yourself or others. There might also be issues of state law regarding eligibility for licensure (another reason we'd need legal counsel).

The bigger issue with regard to MSTP is having a strong academic record, clincial experience, and a very strong research record that meshes with the research interests of the schools to which you are applying.

 

[Ephesus]

It sounds like the bigger issue is the one we have grown immune to. But, that is to be expected, even of physicians.