Apathetic Doctors

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

perfectpursuits

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2013
Messages
12
Reaction score
0
I have been thinking about entering the healthcare industry for some time. I have noticed something, though, and i hope you guys can share some of your opinions and shed light on this for me.

I find many doctors are quite apathetic to the fate of their patients and their complaints. I see doctors who often don't try their best to help their patients... my own doctor takes my word on what to prescribe me and what not to give me; this is strange to say the least. This is from personal experience but not limited to that, as I hear similar stories from family members and peers. As well, I volunteered in a hospital for a few months and was in touch with doctors and nurses.

What about the medical field makes people apathetic? Is medicine such an incomplete science-based practice that people's passion just cools off? I find it unlikely that so many doctors would pursue such gruesome training to get a job they were not passionate about to begin with, so I think there must be something wrong with medicine, its practice, the politics involved, etc. Which is it?
 
I have been thinking about entering the healthcare industry for some time. I have noticed something, though, and i hope you guys can share some of your opinions and shed light on this for me.

I find many doctors are quite apathetic to the fate of their patients and their complaints. I see doctors who often don't try their best to help their patients... my own doctor takes my word on what to prescribe me and what not to give me; this is strange to say the least. This is from personal experience but not limited to that, as I hear similar stories from family members and peers. As well, I volunteered in a hospital for a few months and was in touch with doctors and nurses.

What about the medical field makes people apathetic? Is medicine such an incomplete science-based practice that people's passion just cools off? I find it unlikely that so many doctors would pursue such gruesome training to get a job they were not passionate about to begin with, so I think there must be something wrong with medicine, its practice, the politics involved, etc. Which is it?

They get exhausted by working in (or rather, against) a horrible system and get tired of feeling like they made no difference, or can't make a difference.

There is a lot of reading out there about the emotional toll that medicine takes on practitioners. Just start googling 'doctor' and 'burn-out'.
 
I have been thinking about entering the healthcare industry for some time. I have noticed something, though, and i hope you guys can share some of your opinions and shed light on this for me.

I find many doctors are quite apathetic to the fate of their patients and their complaints. I see doctors who often don't try their best to help their patients... my own doctor takes my word on what to prescribe me and what not to give me; this is strange to say the least. This is from personal experience but not limited to that, as I hear similar stories from family members and peers. As well, I volunteered in a hospital for a few months and was in touch with doctors and nurses.

What about the medical field makes people apathetic? Is medicine such an incomplete science-based practice that people's passion just cools off? I find it unlikely that so many doctors would pursue such gruesome training to get a job they were not passionate about to begin with, so I think there must be something wrong with medicine, its practice, the politics involved, etc. Which is it?

The drug seekers, the frequent fliers, the non-compliance, the epidemic of obesity, my friend calls it disease of TAOS (Tobacco, Alcohol, Obesity, and Sloth), the inability to take responsibility for one's health. Then there is the paperwork, the government regulations, the insurance company denials of everything you want to order, people have no money for the meds that you want to give, the disfunctional families, the uncontrolled psych issues, etc.

The list goes on and on and on.
 
I find many doctors are quite apathetic to the fate of their patients and their complaints. I see doctors who often don't try their best to help their patients...

It's not that we don't care and don't try our best. But when we see the same people over and over and they aren't trying to help themselves (asthmatics who refuse to try to quit smoking, heart disease patients who won't try and lose weight, etc). There is a point where we are just pissing into the wind. If the patient isn't an active participant in their own health care then there's not much we can do.

Why should I care more about a patient's health than they do? It's their life, not mine..
 
The drug seekers, the frequent fliers, the non-compliance, the epidemic of obesity, my friend calls it disease of TAOS (Tobacco, Alcohol, Obesity, and Sloth), the inability to take responsibility for one's health. Then there is the paperwork, the government regulations, the insurance company denials of everything you want to order, people have no money for the meds that you want to give, the disfunctional families, the uncontrolled psych issues, etc.

The list goes on and on and on.

Haha, that's funny. Hasn't "sloth" been pathologized though? You can take drugs and/or receive therapy for a lot of mental health conditions that make you seem uncaring and lazy as a symptom. I understand what you are saying though, and it makes sense that perhaps after hundreds (maybe thousands?) of patients, doctors might feel a little less impactful than they originally hoped. It's an interesting perspective.

Insurance company denials must suck! I live in Canada, so not much of a problem with a part of that. Drug insurance is still an issue here, but there are some social programs for people who don't have benefits and many doctors dispense samples liberally to those without a plan.

Also, by frequent fliers do you mean people who make too many appointments?
 
Last edited:
They get exhausted by working in (or rather, against) a horrible system and get tired of feeling like they made no difference, or can't make a difference.

There is a lot of reading out there about the emotional toll that medicine takes on practitioners. Just start googling 'doctor' and 'burn-out'.

I will look that up! Thanks.
 
I think all the work you put into your training plus the population you are dealing with makes you physically and emotionally vulnerable. As a protective response we can become apathetic. That way when patient's fail to meet your expectations/ignore your advice (which will happen a lot), you won't be as disappointed/burnt out.
 
It's not that we don't care and don't try our best. But when we see the same people over and over and they aren't trying to help themselves (asthmatics who refuse to try to quit smoking, heart disease patients who won't try and lose weight, etc). There is a point where we are just pissing into the wind. If the patient isn't an active participant in their own health care then there's not much we can do.

Why should I care more about a patient's health than they do? It's their life, not mine..

Fair enough! I wonder if this could be a misunderstanding on the part of patients regarding what healthcare should entail, what doctors should be able to do for them, their understanding of medical science, versus the doctors' understanding. I wonder how much consensus one would find amongst laypeople/patients regarding their care expectations.

I just feel that maybe if there was a resource available to those people who don't understand the purpose and limits of the relationship, it would help them. Something like a patient manual.
 
Last edited:
I think all the work you put into your training plus the population you are dealing with makes you physically and emotionally vulnerable. As a protective response we can become apathetic. That way when patient's fail to meet your expectations/ignore your advice (which will happen a lot), you won't be as disappointed/burnt out.

Okay, I see. It's interesting to see that I'm not imagining this "attitude" or problem of sorts between doctors and patients. Maybe it's well documented; I'm not sure because I haven't done any research yet. Do you think there could be a remedy to this, or there needs to be a remedy? Feeling cared about by a healthcare provider alone could potentially improve a patient's wellbeing (I'm making a leap, but it's based on a study I read of reiki therapy vs. regular nurses who were particularly attentive, and they both helped the patients equally).
 
Okay, I see. It's interesting to see that I'm not imagining this "attitude" or problem of sorts between doctors and patients. Maybe it's well documented; I'm not sure because I haven't done any research yet. Do you think there could be a remedy to this, or there needs to be a remedy? Feeling cared about by a healthcare provider alone could potentially improve a patient's wellbeing (I'm making a leap, but it's based on a study I read of reiki therapy vs. regular nurses who were particularly attentive, and they both helped the patients equally).

I agree that there are certainly frustrations in caring for patients that won't heed advice, don't seem to care about their health, etc. However I would hesitate to call it apathy. I think just like anything else, the physician learns to choose their battles, we aren't there to MAKE someone do what we tell them to do, we are there to be a resource and a guide to help people make their OWN informed choices. The best you can do is educate and let them weigh the benefits for themselves. Some patients just put other priorities before their own health, you know? The physician cannot and should not live and die over those patients because there are too many sick people that really do want and need help.
 
The drug seekers, the frequent fliers, the non-compliance, the epidemic of obesity, my friend calls it disease of TAOS (Tobacco, Alcohol, Obesity, and Sloth), the inability to take responsibility for one's health. Then there is the paperwork, the government regulations, the insurance company denials of everything you want to order, people have no money for the meds that you want to give, the disfunctional families, the uncontrolled psych issues, etc.

The list goes on and on and on.
This.

Why should I care more about a patient's health than they do? It's their life, not mine..
And this.

Add on also that for residents, your own needs (time with family, sleep, food, going to the bathroom) are not prioritized (and in fact are actively discouraged); most have the financial stress of high loans coming due where you can't afford to quit medicine even if you want to (and that goes for attendings too); and dealing with the emotions of seeing the worst that human beings can do to each other as well as to themselves. I spent my last Christmas doing a 25 hour shift in the ICU taking care of two people who tried to hang themselves and one who shot half his face off (and survived). I'm guessing yours was a tad more pleasant, OP. At least I hope so.

Also, by frequent fliers do you mean people who make too many appointments?
No. Frequent fliers are people who show up to the ED constantly for chronic issues that can't be taken care of in the ED and that aren't emergencies. They're things like being drunk/disorderly, chronic pain (often seeking opiates), and other patients who tend to be among the more unpleasant to deal with because they're also manipulative and belligerent people with personality disorders, and there's nothing you can do to make them better.

Fair enough! I wonder if this could be a misunderstanding on the part of patients regarding what healthcare should entail, what doctors should be able to do for them, their understanding of medical science, versus the doctors' understanding. I wonder how much consensus one would find amongst laypeople/patients regarding their care expectations.
People are remarkably uneducated about their health care issues. For example, it's incredibly frustrating when you ask someone what they take for their diabetes, and they're either like, "wait, I have diabetes?" or "I'm not taking any meds," or my absolute favorite, "it's the little round white pill." Oh, of course. Because there's only one little round white pill in existence on the planet, and since I'm sitting around memorizing what every name brand and generic pill for your health condition looks like (sarcastic), now I know exactly what you're taking, including the dose and schedule, all of which I need to document to make sure that you get the correct meds in the correct amounts at the correct times while you're in the hospital (which you're being admitted to because you weren't actually taking those little round white pills like you were supposed to).

I just feel that maybe if there was a resource available to those people who don't understand the purpose and limits of the relationship, it would help them. Something like a patient manual.
There are. Everyone who gets admitted to the hospital gets a packet, and every patient who gets discharged gets oral and written discharge instructions. But there are several problems with them. First, we grossly overestimate our patients' health care literacy, and their literacy in general. A lot of patient care info is written at a high school reading level, while a lot of patients read at an elementary school reading level. Or they can't read at all, and they've learned how to effectively fake their way through. Or they don't understand English all that well, and we don't have patient materials printed in Swahili. Second, even when patients understand what they're supposed to do and are willing to do it, there are a lot of social factors that interfere, from lack of money (can't buy their meds) to lack of transportation (can't physically go to their follow up appointment) to lack of accessibility (can't get time off from work during business hours to get to the doctor). I don't have a good solution to any of those problems. If you do, have at it.

Okay, I see. It's interesting to see that I'm not imagining this "attitude" or problem of sorts between doctors and patients. Maybe it's well documented; I'm not sure because I haven't done any research yet. Do you think there could be a remedy to this, or there needs to be a remedy? Feeling cared about by a healthcare provider alone could potentially improve a patient's wellbeing (I'm making a leap, but it's based on a study I read of reiki therapy vs. regular nurses who were particularly attentive, and they both helped the patients equally).
It's very well documented, from how med student and physician empathy decreases over time the more patient care experience they have, to kinds of patients that physicians dread (see Groves J: Taking care of the hateful patient. N Engl J Med 1978; 298: 883-887 for the classic article on that topic. For one of the earlier studies discussing erosion of empathy among trainees, see Hojat M, et al: The Devil is in the Third Year: A Longitudinal Study of Erosion of Empathy in Medical School. Academic Medicine 2009; 84: 1182-119.)

A word of unsolicited advice: don't ever say another thing about reiki that suggests you're a proponent of it, unless you're discussing how it's a great example of the placebo effect. That's doubly true if you actually believe it works. Defending reiki (or homeopathy, my other favorite completely implausible alternative medicine modality) is a great way to ensure that you'll have zero credibility whatsoever with most Western-trained physicians, including the ones on adcoms who will be evaluating your med school apps. (On a semi-facetious note, I have plenty of anecdotal evidence for the existence of anti-reiki, where I can adjust the patient's energy fields by merely bringing my hands near them without actually touching them, and it causes them to have excruciating 10/10 pain that can only be relieved by IV dilaudid.)
 
This.


And this.

Add on also that for residents, your own needs (time with family, sleep, food, going to the bathroom) are not prioritized (and in fact are actively discouraged); most have the financial stress of high loans coming due where you can't afford to quit medicine even if you want to (and that goes for attendings too); and dealing with the emotions of seeing the worst that human beings can do to each other as well as to themselves. I spent my last Christmas doing a 25 hour shift in the ICU taking care of two people who tried to hang themselves and one who shot half his face off (and survived). I'm guessing yours was a tad more pleasant, OP. At least I hope so.


No. Frequent fliers are people who show up to the ED constantly for chronic issues that can't be taken care of in the ED and that aren't emergencies. They're things like being drunk/disorderly, chronic pain (often seeking opiates), and other patients who tend to be among the more unpleasant to deal with because they're also manipulative and belligerent people with personality disorders, and there's nothing you can do to make them better.


People are remarkably uneducated about their health care issues. For example, it's incredibly frustrating when you ask someone what they take for their diabetes, and they're either like, "wait, I have diabetes?" or "I'm not taking any meds," or my absolute favorite, "it's the little round white pill." Oh, of course. Because there's only one little round white pill in existence on the planet, and since I'm sitting around memorizing what every name brand and generic pill for your health condition looks like (sarcastic), now I know exactly what you're taking, including the dose and schedule, all of which I need to document to make sure that you get the correct meds in the correct amounts at the correct times while you're in the hospital (which you're being admitted to because you weren't actually taking those little round white pills like you were supposed to).


There are. Everyone who gets admitted to the hospital gets a packet, and every patient who gets discharged gets oral and written discharge instructions. But there are several problems with them. First, we grossly overestimate our patients' health care literacy, and their literacy in general. A lot of patient care info is written at a high school reading level, while a lot of patients read at an elementary school reading level. Or they can't read at all, and they've learned how to effectively fake their way through. Or they don't understand English all that well, and we don't have patient materials printed in Swahili. Second, even when patients understand what they're supposed to do and are willing to do it, there are a lot of social factors that interfere, from lack of money (can't buy their meds) to lack of transportation (can't physically go to their follow up appointment) to lack of accessibility (can't get time off from work during business hours to get to the doctor). I don't have a good solution to any of those problems. If you do, have at it.


It's very well documented, from how med student and physician empathy decreases over time the more patient care experience they have, to kinds of patients that physicians dread (see Groves J: Taking care of the hateful patient. N Engl J Med 1978; 298: 883-887 for the classic article on that topic. For one of the earlier studies discussing erosion of empathy among trainees, see Hojat M, et al: The Devil is in the Third Year: A Longitudinal Study of Erosion of Empathy in Medical School. Academic Medicine 2009; 84: 1182-119.)

A word of unsolicited advice: don't ever say another thing about reiki that suggests you're a proponent of it, unless you're discussing how it's a great example of the placebo effect. That's doubly true if you actually believe it works. Defending reiki (or homeopathy, my other favorite completely implausible alternative medicine modality) is a great way to ensure that you'll have zero credibility whatsoever with most Western-trained physicians, including the ones on adcoms who will be evaluating your med school apps. (On a semi-facetious note, I have plenty of anecdotal evidence for the existence of anti-reiki, where I can adjust the patient's energy fields by merely bringing my hands near them without actually touching them, and it causes them to have excruciating 10/10 pain that can only be relieved by IV dilaudid.)

I will definitely look up those articles and do more research on this, since I find this "erosion of empathy" really interesting. It's a good way of phrasing what happens. Aside from the issues that you and others have mentioned, I seem to meet doctors who point blank don't seem to care.

I wish my GP was an isolated incident, but from anecdotes I hear from others, she's not. Of course, most of my info is family medicine related. I initially meant to discuss a kind of apathy that in my opinion significantly affects the quality of practice.

For example, when doctors get tired of telling their patient to do X thing that most people then neglect to do, do they give up and stop telling future patients? They shouldn't if that's the case.

I visit my overbooked doctor for ~10 min appointments often (Canada here), and I've talked about my race injury several times, for example, and the best I got is to take Advil. This is not an isolated incident. I'm not even sure she's listening to me when I talk. I visited another doctor in the same clinic when mine was on vacation: I shared a worrying symptom, and he didn't lift his head up from a work note he was writing for me.

I think a lot of this may also be policy related and so specific to location. I've been hospitalized before, though only through ER, and was never given a pamphlet. Regardless, I meant a patient guidebook or manual for the everyday patient who visits their GP, not necessarily a hospital doc or specialist.

The study I brought up definitely shouldn't have suggested that I am a proponent of the practice... My point was that when healthcare practitioners are caring, patient wellbeing increases. It's from a study I read a long time ago, and the study's results were, ultimately, that reiki is no better than no reiki for improving patient wellbeing when the attendant is caring.
 
For example, when doctors get tired of telling their patient to do X thing that most people then neglect to do, do they give up and stop telling future patients? They shouldn't if that's the case.
Speaking for myself at least, no. I would say my biggest pet issue is trying to get people to stop smoking. There is nothing else people do that has more potential to improve their health than to stop smoking. Plus, it's expensive and just plain nasty. So I tell every smoker on every visit to quit (assuming there's not some acute issue preventing us from having the discussion). Does it work? Tough to say. There are studies that suggest it does help some patients to hear "you need to quit" from a person wearing a white coat with an MD after their name. I don't know of anyone specifically who has quit just because I told them to though.

I visit my overbooked doctor for ~10 min appointments often (Canada here), and I've talked about my race injury several times, for example, and the best I got is to take Advil. This is not an isolated incident. I'm not even sure she's listening to me when I talk. I visited another doctor in the same clinic when mine was on vacation: I shared a worrying symptom, and he didn't lift his head up from a work note he was writing for me.
I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, it's less that I "don't care," and more that I have many other competing priorities besides making patients feel "cared for." (Not to mention needing to try to figure out what that even means to each person.) I don't know you, so this may not apply. But there are some patients who, when you ask them what brings them in today, want to tell you about stuff that happened a decade ago. I don't have time to be interested in a decade ago. For ambulatory (like outpatient clinic) patients, I have ten minutes to find out what your problem is, examine you, figure out what further testing you need, develop a plan, and explain it to you (and hopefully get your buy-in). So if I'm charting or writing discharge instructions while someone is blabbing on about stuff that is not directly relevant to why they came in today or what I need to get done during their ten minutes of face time, that's why. Maybe this is what you're talking about when you suggested before that patients and docs have different expectations of the visit?

I don't think that anyone would argue that health care practitioners shouldn't care about patients or try to help them as much as possible. But unfortunately, the incentives are all for docs to spend less time talking to patients, not more. The person whose appointment is after yours doesn't want to stay out in the waiting room for another ten minutes while you talk to the doc about old injuries. Your PCP doesn't want to spend a couple of extra hours at the end of the day charting because you and every other patient each wanted an extra ten minutes to shoot the breeze or discuss unrelated problems. S/he almost certainly can't do anything about an old injury anyway. So since that injury is old and probably not what brought you in, s/he will want to spend the ten minutes you have together on things related to why you're there now, today.

If this doesn't sound like what you want to do for a career, think long and hard about going to medical school. Moving people from the waiting room to the exam room and out the door as rapidly as possible has become the major metric by which ambulatory (including emergency room) physicians are judged.
the study's results were, ultimately, that reiki is no better than no reiki for improving patient wellbeing when the attendant is caring.
Which should surprise no one. :d
 
All of this sounds like it would make a good focus group.

Back in college, I vaguely remember a time that I didn't follow a doctor's instructions first time around. Then I was stuck going back because it got worse. The doctor sort of joked at me, "Just going to the doctor doesn't make you better!" "You have to follow the doctor's instructions." (The image that came to mind was sort of like, if you've played The Legend of Zelda, walking into that area with the fairy and your life fills up. It was like the doctor in the place of the fairy. Maybe you had to be there.) I might try making this into a poster someday, if I could make it silly and the tone right. Probably not with Zelda though. That was back when I was young.
 
Last edited:
Fair enough! I wonder if this could be a misunderstanding on the part of patients regarding what healthcare should entail, what doctors should be able to do for them, their understanding of medical science, versus the doctors' understanding. I wonder how much consensus one would find amongst laypeople/patients regarding their care expectations.

This is also really interesting to me-- search up "physician-patient communication" on PubMed. One of my professors in college was particularly interested in communication and how it affects adherence to medication in patients with HIV/AIDS; a lot of studies have shown that the way you talk to patients has an effect on how they approach their own health (e.g. saying "take two and call me in the morning" is probably not going to work as well as having a conversation with a patient about why it's important for them to take medication x, what medication x does [and explained in terms they can understand], etc.). I mean, I think people are just generally more receptive to being treated like equals than being talked down to, no? Of course, the time constraints on most patient visits precludes having a useful conversation like this-- but in an ideal world, if the system was different..

I spent my last Christmas doing a 25 hour shift in the ICU taking care of two people who tried to hang themselves and one who shot half his face off (and survived).

What kind of doctor are you, if you don't mind my asking?
 
All of this sounds like it would make a good focus group.

👍👍 Yes. This is one of the reasons why I love SDN, despite all the crazy pre-meds and how stressful these forums can sometimes be-- you're exposed to so many perspectives and you really get to discuss and just think about these issues that are relevant and interesting and important. I wish my pre-med club in college had groups/opportunities to have these kinds of discussions.
 
Okay, I see. It's interesting to see that I'm not imagining this "attitude" or problem of sorts between doctors and patients. Maybe it's well documented; I'm not sure because I haven't done any research yet. Do you think there could be a remedy to this, or there needs to be a remedy? Feeling cared about by a healthcare provider alone could potentially improve a patient's wellbeing (I'm making a leap, but it's based on a study I read of reiki therapy vs. regular nurses who were particularly attentive, and they both helped the patients equally).

I don't want to generalize but what I said before is the vibe I'd get from physicians and nurses... kind of apathetic or numb particularly in the ED since we see a lot of drug seeking, psychiatric, homeless, non-compliance (you'll see this one everywhere in regards to special diets, meds, etc).

I mean part of it is the patient but it's also our responsibility as providers to care and try to convince them to make a healthy change. However, we can't force them. All we can do is educate and warn them about quitting smoking, eating healthier, etc. I think primary care and prevention and catching them young is really important and could be a remedy. When I was in nursing school I would always come across that COPD, obese, CHF patient who really needed to lay off the smoking and salty diet. But he was 50-60 years old, set in his ways, and said hey, I don't have much longer so I'm just going to enjoy my cigs and junk food while I still can. Our whole floor would be filled with pts like this and it can be tough to think about especially if you're part of a younger/somewhat healthier generation.

Top all of that with a financial and emotional strain I think a lot of residents have after going through the gauntlet of medical school, plus competing priorities, protocols, and management and it would be very easy for me to throw up that numbing wall to try and save myself. I think caring is important but it's even more important to protect myself and make sure I am healthy otherwise all that training and your ability to help others goes to waste.

This is a fun thread btw 😛
 
Last edited:
I wish my GP was an isolated incident, but from anecdotes I hear from others, she's not.

It's tough to extrapolate to the general population of doctors based on a series of anecdotes. I would wager I have just as many anecdotal stories of doctors being very caring and taking an extra hour with their patients...

N2MD said:
When I was in nursing school I would always come across that COPD, obese, CHF patient who really needed to lay off the smoking and salty diet. But he was 50-60 years old, set in his ways, and said hey, I don't have much longer so I'm just going to enjoy my cigs and junk food while I still can.

I see patients like this all the time. I wish there was a way to deny them care at the door. "Sorry you're in respiratory distress... but... you made the life choice, you were counseled repeatedly on the potential consequences and you chose to continue with your choices. So now you have to suffer with the outcome". But no, I have to vent them, diurese them, do whatever to get them back to a semblance of stability before sending them back home to continue their bad habits.
 
I'm apathetic to people who fret over other people's apathy.

We do this to our teachers. We give them the hardest job in the world, dump of all of society's problems on them, and then we get to listen to some trailer queen'e toothless rant about how the teachers aren't transforming her inbred twit offspring into a nuclear physicist with proper English comportment.

Do it yourself. And see how you do it. If you can sing joy and revelation into the hearts of the downtrodden while you whistle through your paper work then start teaching a seminar on how to do it. Otherwise, you're in the stands. Amongst a sea of faces. Shouting all at once with different complaints about the mundane moments of your self-absorbed lives.

How apathetic is my garbage man? How about the dude who makes sandwiches? How come the don't care about my feelies? Etc.
 
That said. I've been mistreated by physicians as a patient and it sucks. I'm generally regarded by others as very empathetic.

But there is ample hypocrisy in the constant moral monitoring of our physicians level of outward shows of empathy. Mostly by people who've never been monitored constantly for empathetic cues at whatever they do. And pardon me if it seems they less they do the more they have to say about what others do. ie the PTA over enthusiastic homemaker.
 
It's not that we don't care and don't try our best. But when we see the same people over and over and they aren't trying to help themselves (asthmatics who refuse to try to quit smoking, heart disease patients who won't try and lose weight, etc). There is a point where we are just pissing into the wind. If the patient isn't an active participant in their own health care then there's not much we can do.

Why should I care more about a patient's health than they do? It's their life, not mine..

Isn't it your job to care? I'm confused about something. Before you went to medical school, didnt you know that a lot of your patient's health issues would be caused by an suboptimal lifestyle?
 
What kind of doctor are you, if you don't mind my asking?
She's two kinds: Medical (MD) and Philosophy (Ph.D.) in the strict original "love of wisdom" sense. :meanie:

Anonymity is appreciated on SDN - suffice to say Master Q is mostly done with her residency and soon will "hang out her shingle" and enlighten us on the current state of employment for newly-minted doctors! 🙂

To add another layer to the oft-cited research into the decline in empathy - some of this is due to underlying age, I firmly believe, and not just years of training. I feel like I maybe came in relatively "jaded" into medical school.
 
Isn't it your job to care? I'm confused about something. Before you went to medical school, didnt you know that a lot of your patient's health issues would be caused by an suboptimal lifestyle?

Sure I knew. And I know that when they walk in, that some aspect of their lifestyle is probably to blame for their current condition.

Fine, they smoked too much and now they have emphysema. So it goes, and I do the best I can to make them better.

Now they have a bad medical condition, I have talked to them about risk reduction for future episodes. If they go home, make a good faith effort to improve their health and they come back with an exacerbation then I continue to care.

But if they go home, shrug their shoulders, make no effort to improve their health and reduce their risk and then come back in worse condition, why should I care more than them? I'm not the one who has to drag around an oxygen tank; I'm not the one who has to breathe through a trach.

That is the point at which I lose empathy; the return visit and the re-return and the re-re-return; with no sign from the patient that they want to make the effort to be an active participant in their own health care.
 
Isn't it your job to care? I'm confused about something. Before you went to medical school, didnt you know that a lot of your patient's health issues would be caused by an suboptimal lifestyle?
Of course we all knew going into this that much of modern health issues stem from poor choices. If anything - doctors (and med students) and even MORE keenly aware the consequences because we don't just hear and read about the trainwrecks on the news...we watch them daily in a very personal way.

Heck - I was there when a man was told he needed to quit smoking, and (as fate would have it) I held his leg in the OR when it was cut it off because he refused to quit... and I was there when he said he still wouldn't quit to spare his other leg post-operatively. Meanwhile, I still tell the baristas at Starbucks to quit smoking at least once a week when I see them in the alley puffing.

I think you can care - you just also need to protect your own sanity. I think we do for the most part care - it's just emotionally exhausting to get worked up about every defeat or setback. Every doc I know still gets very upset when very bad things happen to patients - just like they get excited and happy when great things happen too.
 
Sure I knew. And I know that when they walk in, that some aspect of their lifestyle is probably to blame for their current condition.

Fine, they smoked too much and now they have emphysema. So it goes, and I do the best I can to make them better.

Now they have a bad medical condition, I have talked to them about risk reduction for future episodes. If they go home, make a good faith effort to improve their health and they come back with an exacerbation then I continue to care.

But if they go home, shrug their shoulders, make no effort to improve their health and reduce their risk and then come back in worse condition, why should I care more than them? I'm not the one who has to drag around an oxygen tank; I'm not the one who has to breathe through a trach.

That is the point at which I lose empathy; the return visit and the re-return and the re-re-return; with no sign from the patient that they want to make the effort to be an active participant in their own health care.

Exactly. Why do people feel no responsibility to BE more of a sympathetic character in the lives of their doctor who is but a minor character in their own story of health. For their own sake. For the sake of their loved ones. To be the champion of their own damn life.

Just know that any child who comes in really sick will jerk the tears of the most hardened ED nurse. And so on. The frequent flyer who is strangely receptive to Q's sith-like anti-reiki powers...not so much. And everywhere in between.

I sometimes wonder if people would prefer empathy robots taking care of them rather than human beings.
 
I'm apathetic to people who fret over other people's apathy.

We do this to our teachers. We give them the hardest job in the world, dump of all of society's problems on them, and then we get to listen to some trailer queen'e toothless rant about how the teachers aren't transforming her inbred twit offspring into a nuclear physicist with proper English comportment.

Do it yourself. And see how you do it. If you can sing joy and revelation into the hearts of the downtrodden while you whistle through your paper work then start teaching a seminar on how to do it. Otherwise, you're in the stands. Amongst a sea of faces. Shouting all at once with different complaints about the mundane moments of your self-absorbed lives.

How apathetic is my garbage man? How about the dude who makes sandwiches? How come the don't care about my feelies? Etc.

That said. I've been mistreated by physicians as a patient and it sucks. I'm generally regarded by others as very empathetic.

But there is ample hypocrisy in the constant moral monitoring of our physicians level of outward shows of empathy. Mostly by people who've never been monitored constantly for empathetic cues at whatever they do. And pardon me if it seems they less they do the more they have to say about what others do. ie the PTA over enthusiastic homemaker.
All good points.

It's easy to be a cheerleader for empathy when it's *someone else* who needs to "care more" about you. But what are *you* doing to care more about other people, especially those of you who are yearning greatly to get into medical school so that you can "help people?" Well, you don't have to be a doc to help people or make them feel "cared for." Everyone, regardless of their education or skill level, can do something to help care for someone else. And as Ghandi wisely said, *you* be the change you wish to see in the world.

It's interesting to me that no one addressed one of my prior points. To whit, almost no one in the waiting room gives a flying rip about the doctor's needs. In fact, some entitled patients and families are plenty happy to rip the doc a new one if they waited five extra minutes to be seen because the doc needed to take a pee. How empathetic is that? Presumably all of you have had the experience of having an uncomfortably full bladder and needing to go empty it. Why can some of you patients who feel so marginalized not understand that your doc has the same physiologic limitations that you have when it comes to these things? And if your doc is in the middle of a nasty divorce, or she's six weeks pregnant and struggling with morning sickness, or she's just having a bad day in general, why is that somehow irrelevant? Do any of you really think that earning an MD suddenly makes you superhuman? Because I can tell you that it doesn't.
 
All good points.

It's easy to be a cheerleader for empathy when it's *someone else* who needs to "care more" about you. But what are *you* doing to care more about other people, especially those of you who are yearning greatly to get into medical school so that you can "help people?" Well, you don't have to be a doc to help people or make them feel "cared for." Everyone, regardless of their education or skill level, can do something to help care for someone else. And as Ghandi wisely said, *you* be the change you wish to see in the world.

It's interesting to me that no one addressed one of my prior points. To whit, almost no one in the waiting room gives a flying rip about the doctor's needs. In fact, some entitled patients and families are plenty happy to rip the doc a new one if they waited five extra minutes to be seen because the doc needed to take a pee. How empathetic is that? Presumably all of you have had the experience of having an uncomfortably full bladder and needing to go empty it. Why can some of you patients who feel so marginalized not understand that your doc has the same physiologic limitations that you have when it comes to these things? And if your doc is in the middle of a nasty divorce, or she's six weeks pregnant and struggling with morning sickness, or she's just having a bad day in general, why is that somehow irrelevant? Do any of you really think that earning an MD suddenly makes you superhuman? Because I can tell you that it doesn't.

Great power, great responsibility and all that jazz? I learned that from the military, also Spider-Man. I'm not sure why you want your patient to empathize. Most physicians are extremely healthy people who are much more educated, adjusted and grounded than their patients. They also realize that it's your job to help them.

I don't want to go to med school so I can help people, I want to learn medicine and practice it. It just so happens that I'm a very caring person and I associate with people with similar values. I've already saved lives, helped friends, rescued baby kittens and all that fun stuff.
 
Isn't it your job to care? I'm confused about something. Before you went to medical school, didnt you know that a lot of your patient's health issues would be caused by an suboptimal lifestyle?

It's your job to provide care for a patient, not to care about a patient. In fact, if you care about a patient too much, ie a family member, generally you're not supposed to be their doctor. In the rest of the cases, sometimes caring about a patient happens, often it doesn't. Doesn't mean you're not a competent physician. But if you had total empathy for every person who walked through your door, you'd burn out pretty fast. And when someone's bound and determined to ruin their health, how long can you really be sympathetic? You can certainly try, but you can't be all things to all people.

As to whether the average doc knew what they'd be encountering when they matriculated, well... On one hand, that's why shadowing is an unwritten requirement. On the other, if you talk to just about any resident or attending they'll probably say that they had no idea of the whole scope of things when they started. Some more than others, but almost none totally. Second hand is never first hand.
 
Great power, great responsibility and all that jazz? I learned that from the military, also Spider-Man. I'm not sure why you want your patient to empathize. Most physicians are extremely healthy people who are much more educated, adjusted and grounded than their patients. They also realize that it's your job to help them.

I don't want to go to med school so I can help people, I want to learn medicine and practice it. It just so happens that I'm a very caring person and I associate with people with similar values. I've already saved lives, helped friends, rescued baby kittens and all that fun stuff.

On the bolded, I will call BS. Some, yes. Most, no.

Also, if you want your doc to empathize with you, maybe you should start by returning the favor.
 
Well, I'm not a doctor (or even a pre-med), and have offered my thoughts, for whatever they're worth, on what in a loose moment I unfortunately called 'empathy' in another thread. Wrt apathy, my 2 cents (as a non-minted person with an ambition to work in healthcare, and an interest in its sociology) is that labour laws, like the EU's Working Time Directive, might help mitigate burnout, etc. (That one's controversial and imperfect, and has been imperfectly applied, but it's at least an attempt at system change. Which is potentially more fruitful than expecting people in pain to see past their noses.)
 
I visit my overbooked doctor for ~10 min appointments often (Canada here), and I've talked about my race injury several times, for example, and the best I got is to take Advil. This is not an isolated incident. I'm not even sure she's listening to me when I talk. I visited another doctor in the same clinic when mine was on vacation: I shared a worrying symptom, and he didn't lift his head up from a work note he was writing for me.

This right here encapsulates how your behavior and expectations drive your doctor crazy, and you don't even realize it.

"I visit my overbooked doctor for a ~10 min appointment..." I just need a 10 minute appointment, why does my doctor need to schedule so many other appointments? Because there are hundreds to thousands of people who want a piece of their doctor's time, and they all consider "overbooked" to be some symptom of inept scheduling rather than what is - tons of people begging for an appointment ASAP, asking to be squeezed in, taking up tons of time in the room discussing ten different chronic issues rather than the one they were booked to talk about.

"...I've talked about my race injury several times, and the best advice I got was to take Advil." Sometimes, nay, many times, that is the best advice there is for sports injuries. I don't know what your injury is, specifically, but if it's not complicated or acute enough to need a referral to orthopedics then NSAIDs and rest IS basically the best advice available. It sounds like you're not happy with that, and that you blame your doctor for not coming up with some magic solution. There's nothing like unrealistic patient expectations to common, non-life threatening problems to put a damper on your enthusiasm...especially when that patient keeps coming to see you for the same problem, expecting some different answer. Do you want to know how to adjust your running stance to avoid future injury? Talk to a personal trainer. That's not what doctors are trained for, generally.

"I shared a worrying symptom, and he didn't lift his head up from a work note he was writing for me..." Always a crowd pleaser - my doctor didn't show enough empathy (while he was busy doing something else for me)! Well, turns out you can't shock your doctor. He/she has seen, heard, felt, smelled, and even tasted far more shocking things than whatever it is you brought to the office. If he didn't bat an eyelash, that doesn't mean he was ignoring whatever you said. Of course, many people want to act out their favorite dramatic medical show moment with their doctor in the room, but when your working you'll take the mild disappointment of the dramatist-to-be to the dozen or so angry why-can't-schedule-and-see-me-right-away people who are waiting in other rooms, blissfully ignorant to the fact that there are other people in the world who want help for their problems.
 
It's your job to provide care for a patient, not to care about a patient. In fact, if you care about a patient too much, ie a family member, generally you're not supposed to be their doctor. In the rest of the cases, sometimes caring about a patient happens, often it doesn't. Doesn't mean you're not a competent physician. But if you had total empathy for every person who walked through your door, you'd burn out pretty fast. And when someone's bound and determined to ruin their health, how long can you really be sympathetic? You can certainly try, but you can't be all things to all people.

As to whether the average doc knew what they'd be encountering when they matriculated, well... On one hand, that's why shadowing is an unwritten requirement. On the other, if you talk to just about any resident or attending they'll probably say that they had no idea of the whole scope of things when they started. Some more than others, but almost none totally. Second hand is never first hand.

On the bolded, I will call BS. Some, yes. Most, no.

Also, if you want your doc to empathize with you, maybe you should start by returning the favor.

15g6454656.gif
 
I work in a prison, and if that's not a place to find all of the negatives of medicine, I don't know what is. But it doesn't bother me. If they don't care about their issues, there's not much I can do other than educate. If they suddenly decide (because Dr Oz said so, not me) that losing weight will be good and do it, more power to them and they get better. Their choices don't determine whether or not I did what I could.

It's still worth it to me, because not every patient is like that. There are unusual diseases, there are things I can fix, and people whose lives do improve.
 
I am following this discussion and this topic is something I am definitely interested in.

So far most opinions seem to center on patient choices as the primary driver of their condition. But don't we have it backwards? It is the conditions their that drive their choices. Not medical conditions, but general living conditions. The system, society if you will, is designed to have an unhealthy option as a default. To live healthy you have to consciously make an effort every day and think about what you're doing every day of your life. Isn't this too much to ask from an average person?
 
I think those that complain about patient compliance/caring should just see cash patients only.
 
I don't think it's apathy but a coping mechanism one develops. Sure, I'll give my patient what they want within reason as long as it treats their ailment. I'll give them my opinion of what I think it's best, but ultimately, if a patient doesn't want that and wants something else that I believe is less effective but still effective for their ailment, I believe they are adults and should live with the consequences of their actions. I wouldn't, however, give them medication that doesn't fit their ailment, may harm them or will be placebo.

As for their destiny, I won't worry because I can't control it. I will do everything in my power to make them informed of the consequences of each actions, but again, I can't live my life worrying about what another adult does with his/her life. If someone doesn't quit smoking despite a cancer scare and all that, what benefit do I get or they get from me worrying? None. You have to accept people are faulty and you do the best you can within your ability. It would be nice to make everyone 100% better in every way, but that's impossible.

I have been thinking about entering the healthcare industry for some time. I have noticed something, though, and i hope you guys can share some of your opinions and shed light on this for me.

I find many doctors are quite apathetic to the fate of their patients and their complaints. I see doctors who often don't try their best to help their patients... my own doctor takes my word on what to prescribe me and what not to give me; this is strange to say the least. This is from personal experience but not limited to that, as I hear similar stories from family members and peers. As well, I volunteered in a hospital for a few months and was in touch with doctors and nurses.

What about the medical field makes people apathetic? Is medicine such an incomplete science-based practice that people's passion just cools off? I find it unlikely that so many doctors would pursue such gruesome training to get a job they were not passionate about to begin with, so I think there must be something wrong with medicine, its practice, the politics involved, etc. Which is it?
 
I work in a prison, and if that's not a place to find all of the negatives of medicine, I don't know what is. But it doesn't bother me. If they don't care about their issues, there's not much I can do other than educate. If they suddenly decide (because Dr Oz said so, not me) that losing weight will be good and do it, more power to them and they get better. Their choices don't determine whether or not I did what I could.

It's still worth it to me, because not every patient is like that. There are unusual diseases, there are things I can fix, and people whose lives do improve.

I totally agree. I have fun everyday but there are those who come see you who don't want to hear what you have to say, don't believe you, or just flat out have already come to their own comclusion (because Dr. Oz or Dr. House says so) and there is nothing you can do to change their mind.

My general statement is ".I'm not here to boss you, just advise you, if you don't feel I'm telling you the right answer then you are welcome to seek assitance elsewhere". I'm doing urgent care right now so they can go see their regular doctor.

Like I saw a girl the other day with a "spider bite" on her leg. The mom brought her in for antibiotics because her spider bite needed them and that's what this needs. Ok..... so the girls leg was swollen with no central necrosis and no cellulitis, and no heat from the area. Just a localized venom reaction with a drop of serosanguinous fluid from the puncture site. Mom not happy I treated with bendryl and ice only. Didn't believe me that it wasn't infected. They are welcome to go elsewhere for second opinion.


OR.... I got this lady who came for a rash but then mentioned that she has chronic back pain and is weaning off of medical marijuana. She can't get into her pain mgmt doc for 2 weeks and is scared of the pain that is yet to come. Wants me to give her narcotics "just in case she has a bad day". RIGHT.... gets upset because urgent care isn't for "just in case pain" and is angry because she knows that back pain folks come in here all time and leave with drugs. SIGH.... I called her pain mgmt doc and got her in on Monday. All in a day.
 
Ior just flat out have already come to their own comclusion (because Dr. Oz or Dr. House says so) and there is nothing you can do to change their mind.

It's not Lupus!

SIGH.... I called her pain mgmt doc and got her in on Monday. All in a day.

That's more than I would have done. She would have gotten a talk about how all pain management needs to come from her doc and I won't interfere with the physician/patient relationship that they have worked so hard to build. Kudos.
 
It's not Lupus!



That's more than I would have done. She would have gotten a talk about how all pain management needs to come from her doc and I won't interfere with the physician/patient relationship that they have worked so hard to build. Kudos.

Yes, well the nice thing is that I am in a rural area and know who her chronic pain guy is. He wanted me to call for any patient who was having issues. That's the only reason I was able to get her in since I had already had that connection.
 
Yes, well the nice thing is that I am in a rural area and know who her chronic pain guy is. He wanted me to call for any patient who was having issues. That's the only reason I was able to get her in since I had already had that connection.

Ah, that would do it. In my city, after hours, the pain docs won't even return calls/pages from the hospital, let alone from patients.
 
I am following this discussion and this topic is something I am definitely interested in.

So far most opinions seem to center on patient choices as the primary driver of their condition. But don't we have it backwards? It is the conditions their that drive their choices. Not medical conditions, but general living conditions. The system, society if you will, is designed to have an unhealthy option as a default. To live healthy you have to consciously make an effort every day and think about what you're doing every day of your life. Isn't this too much to ask from an average person?

Any thoughts on this? I don't know if I quite agree with that last line (unless it was sarcastic) but the stuff that's bolded seems on point. I've used this example before, but say you've got a patient who's obese-- I feel like it's easy enough to write his/her unhealthy behavior off as a personal choice (and a lot of times that's all it is), but what if you don't realize that the reason this person is obese is because s/he's living in a food desert where all there basically is is a liquor store and a McDonald's? Or what if you see an obese kid who doesn't get access to fresh fruits and vegetables and can't play on the playground after school (i.e. exercise) because it's not safe to do so? It seems like in these cases you can't really blame the patient because there are external factors that are (mostly) out of their control.

I don't have hard evidence to present here (though we could probably find some on PubMed), but from what I've learned in classes the social determinants of health are serious issues in some populations. I'm curious as to what the MDs in this thread think about this.
 
but say you've got a patient who's obese-- I feel like it's easy enough to write his/her unhealthy behavior off as a personal choice (and a lot of times that's all it is), but what if you don't realize that the reason this person is obese is because s/he's living in a food desert where all there basically is is a liquor store and a McDonald's? Or what if you see an obese kid who doesn't get access to fresh fruits and vegetables and can't play on the playground after school (i.e. exercise) because it's not safe to do so? It seems like in these cases you can't really blame the patient because there are external factors that are (mostly) out of their control.

Sometimes that argument might be made (whether it holds water or not is another matter).
But the asthmatic who continues to smoke? The liver failure patient who continues to drink? The high-schooler who breaks his leg filming a youtube video of himself jumping off his roof into a trashcan? That's not a societal issue...

And even if your neighborhood isn't safe and you can't exercise outside, that doesn't preclude you from exercising indoors. I'm deployed in a warzone right now; we do all sorts of exercise routines indoors in the hardened facilities. And we don't have a gym indoors... we just make do with what we have.
 
Great power, great responsibility and all that jazz? I learned that from the military, also Spider-Man. I'm not sure why you want your patient to empathize. Most physicians are extremely healthy people who are much more educated, adjusted and grounded than their patients. They also realize that it's your job to help them.
I don't necessarily. It would just be nice if people who don't deign to demonstrate compassion/empathy themselves didn't feel the need to categorically state that docs should be more compassionate and empathetic, as justified by a few bad negative personal experiences with physicians. Because there are always two sides to every story, aren't there? As detailed in the Groves article I cited above and many others like it, physicians (like all people) respond to difficult patients in negative ways, and they often do so subconsciously. In addition, the generalizing of a small number of negative therapeutic interactions to all docs is a logical fallacy. As one of my favorite podcasters, Mark Crislip, likes to say, the pleural of "anecdote" is "anecdotes," not "data." Sure, some docs are a**holes. My point is, so are some patients. Unfortunately, reacting two a**holes together doesn't annihilate them both and give off a burst of useful electromagnetic energy. :d

I don't want to go to med school so I can help people, I want to learn medicine and practice it. It just so happens that I'm a very caring person and I associate with people with similar values. I've already saved lives, helped friends, rescued baby kittens and all that fun stuff.
If all you had to do as a doc was practice the medicine, I think most if not all of us would be a lot happier with this profession. Because a huge source of dissatisfaction for docs is how little time they do spend actually practicing. I often say that someone with common sense and a high school education could do the vast majority of my day-to-day job. Sadly, it's true.
 
Last edited:
Sometimes that argument might be made (whether it holds water or not is another matter).
But the asthmatic who continues to smoke? The liver failure patient who continues to drink? The high-schooler who breaks his leg filming a youtube video of himself jumping off his roof into a trashcan? That's not a societal issue...

And even if your neighborhood isn't safe and you can't exercise outside, that doesn't preclude you from exercising indoors. I'm deployed in a warzone right now; we do all sorts of exercise routines indoors in the hardened facilities. And we don't have a gym indoors... we just make do with what we have.

With all due respect sir, I think you are missing a point.

Theoretically anybody should have at least 15 minutes a day to exercise, but practically staying healthy in America if you are poor requires constant decision-making and conscious effort. The default is unhealthy. To expect the majority to put in this sort of effort is unreasonable. Also, lets not forget that most research shows that exercise alone will not do the trick, diet is a key.

The point I am making is that we have a system in place with more barriers to healthy living imposed on the poorest demographics and ironically on those with most unfortunate genetic makeup in this situation. Pointing fingers at individuals and calling it "personal responsibility" has not worked for us and never will. Rather than focusing on short-term interventions we need to be thinking about redesigning the entire system.
 
Ah, that would do it. In my city, after hours, the pain docs won't even return calls/pages from the hospital, let alone from patients.

In our area, providers can't reach pain management doctors. You have to leave a message and wait for a receptionist to call your office back.
 
Theoretically anybody should have at least 15 minutes a day to exercise, but practically staying healthy in America if you are poor requires constant decision-making and conscious effort.

This is true no matter your economic placement.

To expect the majority to put in this sort of effort is unreasonable.

How is it unreasonable to expect someone to take care of themself? Why not put them all in a prison somewhere so they can be fed, clothed, housed, and have an alotted 1 hour a day to exercise? Seriously?

The point I am making is that we have a system in place with more barriers to healthy living imposed on the poorest demographics and ironically on those with most unfortunate genetic makeup in this situation. Pointing fingers at individuals and calling it "personal responsibility" has not worked for us and never will. Rather than focusing on short-term interventions we need to be thinking about redesigning the entire system.

When I was on food stamps, my kids still ate healthy. They had meat, vegetables, and homemade snacks. Nothing cheaper or healthier for daily amino acid intake than bean and rice tortillas. If you lay off the sodas and twinkies and bags of chips, all will be well. Perhaps cooking classes in high school... oh, wait.

The social engineering and taking over people's lives for them because they're too dumb to take care of themselves is a wrong attitude and does disservice to the poor. And to say that because someone is poor they are more likely to have an unfortunate genetic makeup? wow. I have no patience for elitest attitudes.

The government needs to hire those who are unemployed and have them spoon feed, physically train, and personally administer any medications that these poor people need.

Since they are are too stupid and "poor" to even take care of themselves, I believe that my solution will not only solve the economic crisis, but also revolutionize healthcare.

Nice.
 
Top