Apathetic Doctors

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Not only does it once and for all disabuse anybody of that laughingly idiotic notion of "personal responsibility", but it also quantifies a very real person that blame can be applied to. This of course will provide a boon to our friends in litigation, who as we know have also been hit hard by the economic downturn.

Hahaha...

But the lawyers aren't going to want to sue the caregiver. They don't have enough money to make it worthwhile.

Besides, the caregiver can just blame the problem on -their- caregiver who can turn around and point the finger at -their- caregiver. Ultimately there would just have to be one person who is appointed to be the central point of blame for the entire country.
 
I think Q's point is being glossed over.

The premise of this thing is asking, "Why are some doctor's apathetic?" and everyone is foisting external influences on them to answer the question. In general curiosity, ok it might be a fun exercise. But if you read all of these posts, and address Q's point, how about just viewing doctors as people.

I like being a med student. I like wanting to be a physician like the doctors who are sharing here, but at the end of it all, I am me. And as Q pointed out, no one ever really asks the doctor, "Oh so how are you? What kind of day are you having that you are late? What is going on today that has you so rushed?"

I can bet that many of the physicians who shared something have their own favorite patients. And I bet they are the exact opposite of apathetic w/ these patients. And they shared their least favorite patients (or types) for the most part. So they are extra nice to their favorites, and lesser so w/ their least favorites.

ALSO, how many of you med school hopefuls don't think that apathy is something of a defense mechanism for the field you want to be in??? Cuz it is. Don't think it is?? I challenge you to care and give your all to 100 strangers you meet. Treat none of them differently. The drunkard. The unfit mother. Abusive father. ALL the same. Now realize these strangers...they are your future patients. And this is your ideal career. Ideally you need to be the following: Non-judgmental. Very supportive. Very caring about everyone who approaches you.

Wouldn't some apathy be useful? The people who don't want to help themselves. How long can you pour your all into it. Don't you have your own feelings and emotions?? Aren't YOU your own person??

Maybe you, or ANY of us, need to start thinking more about the other person. Think about your apathetic doctor. And at least be grateful they do what they do. Day in. Day out. W/ some constant regard for you over their own needs.

It's tougher than you think! And maybe I've been fortunate enough to have physicians in my family. And have some genuinely nice relationships w/ my interns, residents, attendings.

Value what is being posted. It's the truth. When you get to 3rd year, after you've survived all of basic sciences, and you finally get exhausted by working an entire shift, sit down and understand that your interns, residents, attendings coddled you from the rest of medicine. They're doing all of the paperwork (for legal purposes you really can't do most of it as a student).

Instead of asking why so many doctors are apathetic, we really need to ask ourselves what we can do to make them choose to be less apathetic.

I know as a med student, it REALLY gave me energy when a discharged patient would thank us as a team, or individually. Let me tell you, from my experience in my rotations so far...that is actually rare. And doctors see far MORE patients, so it wouldn't surprise me if their rate of grateful patients is even smaller.

Thinking back on my last annual w/ my doctor, I didn't say "Thank you for your time! I appreciate your efforts" I remember she was walking out, and I was going for my wallet cuz I knew I had an office copay. I'M not a terrific patient. 🙁
 
Reading pre-meds' thoughts on apethetic doctors reminds me when I was just as naive. Don't worry, OP, if you end up in the american medical education machine, you'll understand.

A funny idea to all pre-meds: Bookmark this thread and then if you do make it through medical school, update us your thoughts on apathetic doctors in about 6 years. I'm guessing you'll shock yourself at how your attitude has changed.
 
This is true no matter your economic placement.
It does make a difference. There are countless studies on healthy food access/price and availability of safe public space. The clear consensus is that there is a clear correlation between the income and how much resources are available for a personal use to improve health.

How is it unreasonable to expect someone to take care of themself? Why not put them all in a prison somewhere so they can be fed, clothed, housed, and have an alotted 1 hour a day to exercise? Seriously?
It is unreasonable if you make it impossible to eat healthy. I worked with inner-city populations whose only accessible sources of food were McDonald's and a Gas Station and the school cafeteria food was no better. What do you suggest a teen/young adult should do if he doesn't own a car and there is no other place to eat in the area?

Why do you take one thing I said and exaggerate it to make it ridiculous? Nobody is talking about prisons or personal caretaker. But maybe if we subsidized healthy local grown foods and farmer markets instead of corn and oil it would have better effects on the health. Maybe if we didn't build a suburban sprawl nightmare where to get from one side of neighborhood to another would take you a day if you don't have a car and willing to trespass. Maybe we invested into European-style (hell... the rest of the developed countries-style) integrated (not income-segregated) communities with people living on top of local grocery stores and having easy access to safe public space and public transportation we wouldn't see healthcare costs pilling up and lazy "sloth" patients not willing to take care of themselves? Designing our environment in a smart manner to make healthy choices a more convenient default options (streets easy to walk on and get to places and not driving-mandatory) is not putting people in prisons or providing them with a nanny-state caregivers. It is just common sense that has been employed by urban planners for thousands of years and even in the US until 1950's. Maybe trying to give everyone the largest house they can afford while allowing giant real-estate developers to write the new rules of urban/suburban living was not such a good idea?


When I was on food stamps, my kids still ate healthy. They had meat, vegetables, and homemade snacks. Nothing cheaper or healthier for daily amino acid intake than bean and rice tortillas. If you lay off the sodas and twinkies and bags of chips, all will be well. Perhaps cooking classes in high school... oh, wait.
In some of the work I do, majority of people I come across have no idea what "amino acids" are. I know you might think that since you were able to do it - so should others. But this mentality will get us nowhere. Most people don't really know what is good for them and what isn't. Hell, even most researchers are unsure about it still and there hundreds of different theories out there. Also, lets not forget that the FDA "pyramid" or "plate" used as guide and taught in school is funded by lobbyists and most researchers in the filed that I work with see it as deeply flawed. So the one source of information that may be taught in school is actually bad advice. Lastly, the food prices and access in different areas is very different. Where I work the cheapest food and most available by far is complete junk and larger stores/supermarkets are not within walking distance. This is a very common trend in the American inner-cities that has been studied in detail.

Look I was in a very deep poverty growing up and consider myself simply very lucky to get out. I was just in the right place in the right time to learn things I've learned and meet the right people to push me ahead. Most of the others I grew up with were much less fortunate. I know its tempting to think that I am somehow better than them but the reality is that I was just lucky. The decrease in social mobility and raise in income inequality in America suggests that in contemporary US who your parents will increasingly determine your fate. This is very unfortunate and very troubling to me.

The social engineering and taking over people's lives for them because they're too dumb to take care of themselves is a wrong attitude and does disservice to the poor. And to say that because someone is poor they are more likely to have an unfortunate genetic makeup? wow. I have no patience for elitest attitudes.

Wrong attitude is to assume that everything is in person's control and his circumstances can be overcame with hard work when most of the research clearly shows the opposite to be true. This notion of personal responsibility assumes that someone who is poor is poor because he/she is simply a loser. This idea propagated since 1980's has correlated with further income segregation and disintegration of the middle class in America. My attitude is to assume that they were just less fortunate than me to have faced tougher challenges in life than I did and clearly had less access to opportunity than me.

Regarding the genetics, what I've said was that minority populations who are increasingly likely to live in a worse conditions are also more likely to have propensity to diabetes, obesity, etc. I can link you to some literature if you don't believe me. If you still feel my statement is elitists but don't have a problem with other calling patients "sloth", you may need to do some serious soul-searching.
 
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All of you who think doctors have a right to be apathetic and the patients are to blame should watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LZK1evm8-Q

I had to listen that self-infatuated f@ck ramble for 10 minutes before he said sugar is toxic. Ok. And somethingorother about a personal spiritual revelation about foot amputations. Ok.

Look, you're coming at it like a typical liberal morality sermon. Conveniently with yourself cast as savior of the downtrodden. Also typical.

I'm not into this type of thing so I leave you to fight your moral battles with people who give a crap about such things. But as you decide your career in medicine in the future it's a very reasonable question to ask yourself who are you most empathetic towards. That's a large part of how I decided what I'm applying to this year.

I know sugar is toxic and it's everywhere. I'm not as interested or empathetic to those issues as I am to others.

Your point about poor communities having less access to whole foods is a good one but perhaps just as important is a cultural environment that does not encourage their consumption. There are vegan enclaves of culture in blighted urban areas. And they make use of an iconography of race war and revolution as a basis for it. So I think its a bit more complex than how feely is my doctor in the ER at 2 am on a Tuesday.

How you manage your consciousness is your most basic right. If I had to play mine out strictly in your moral terms I'd be bored to tears.

No thanks. I'll take my apathy and irony and existential futility in the proportions that suit my sanity and sense of fun.

And I'll not take too many notes from high minded premeds about how I should feel about what I'm doing.
 
I had to listen that self-infatuated f@ck ramble for 10 minutes before he said sugar is toxic. Ok. And somethingorother about a personal spiritual revelation about foot amputations. Ok.

Look, you're coming at it like a typical liberal morality sermon. Conveniently with yourself cast as savior of the downtrodden. Also typical.
I don't understand a reason for your hostility towards him. He presents his point of view and does it rather well. If you disagree with something you can outline your thinking and state where he is wrong and why. I just don't see a point in cynicism.
I'm not into this type of thing so I leave you to fight your moral battles with people who give a crap about such things. But as you decide your career in medicine in the future it's a very reasonable question to ask yourself who are you most empathetic towards. That's a large part of how I decided what I'm applying to this year.
Absolutely. This actually hits a nail on the head. Too many physicians, IMO, end up serving populations that they don't really understand or can relate to and will only contribute to a problem rather than thinking about creative ways to solve it.

I know sugar is toxic and it's everywhere. I'm not as interested or empathetic to those issues as I am to others.

Your point about poor communities having less access to whole foods is a good one but perhaps just as important is a cultural environment that does not encourage their consumption. There are vegan enclaves of culture in blighted urban areas. And they make use of an iconography of race war and revolution as a basis for it. So I think its a bit more complex than how feely is my doctor in the ER at 2 am on a Tuesday.
I agree that there are many layers to this problem and that's why if you read my very first comment in this thread you will see that I was the one urging people to think beyond the point-finger-at-that-fat-ass-and-tell-him-to-take-some-goddamn-personal-responsibility-and-care-for-himself attitude.

How you manage your consciousness is your most basic right. If I had to play mine out strictly in your moral terms I'd be bored to tears.

No thanks. I'll take my apathy and irony and existential futility in the proportions that suit my sanity and sense of fun.

And I'll not take too many notes from high minded premeds about how I should feel about what I'm doing.

I don't think I was encouraging people to feel certain way. Maybe to acknowledge a different side of an argument. The whole thread just seems filled with excuses and I am not even blaming doctors. I think we need to create a better system for all of us to be more satisfied. Does sound like something "high minded premeds" would think? Sure. The bigger question is whether it is short-sighted to feel this way and I believe the answer is no.
 
An echo of thought:

For certain minds, why does good and evil always hang precariously in the balance for the right coded behavior to redeem it?

I am empathetic and therefore good because I said X and while tilting my head just so. A slight furrow of brow. With an...I understand you. I am knowing by proper feeling that you are a victim of imperial racist American schemes of domination and oppression wielding corporate influence on air water food and vibe. Therefore I will transmit this knowledge of nutrition for your enlightenment and future awesomeness. And you will go forth from here with sound foot and heart and mind.

And without irony to the pulpit for educating for the constant and unwavering empathy towards everything.

That's why I'm not liberal any more. I could get my ass kicked within an inch of my life for no other reason than walking down the street with my black wife. And still get a liberal lecture on how I need to preemptively and empathetically apologize for my naturally oppressive existence.

They'll have you empathizing with f'n terrorist these spoiled moralistic infants.
 
Two thoughts about that video clip:

First, a scientific/practical objection: if insulin resistance is the cause of obesity, then why does bariatric surgery improve insulin resistance? Because we know it does. I'm not saying he's wrong that obesity is an "effect" rather than a cause. But there's no reason not to think that insulin resistance is also an "effect." In other words, there is something else going on that affects both insulin resistance and obesity. We're still missing some pieces of the puzzle, and I'm betting that his hypothesis is going to wind up being just as overly simplistic as its inverse.

Second, this clip being posted here illustrates why we have the people who have gone to med school and the people who haven't talking past each other in this thread. The existence of insulin resistance, obesity, unhealthy food options, bad city planning, unfairness in life in general isn't *my* fault either. I didn't create these problems. And concerning the health issues that come through my hospital's doors, I'm doing my best to help solve these problems, using the best available information and tools that I have. But you know, it's kind of a downer when I put others before myself to the point that it affects my quality of life, my health, and I get blamed for not being able to "fix" a lot of society's ills that plenty of people much smarter than I am have grappled with unsuccessfully in the past. And then get upbraided for being upset about the unfairness of the unreasonable expectations people have of me, one of which is that I should be able to function as though I weren't made of flesh and blood myself.

I'd also point out that a significant part of my job as a physician is to make judgments about patients. Evaluating complete strangers and making decisions based upon my knowledge, experience, evidence from literature, etc. is what I get paid for. That includes judging when I think someone is lying to me or otherwise full of s***. It might be tragic if I misjudge someone, but I can't not judge them and still do my job. So that's a risk I have to take with every patient I see. Those of you who don't want to judge people may want to consider not going into a career like medicine where patients' lives can depend on your ability and willingness to judge people.
 
Two thoughts about that video clip:

First, a scientific/practical objection: if insulin resistance is the cause of obesity, then why does bariatric surgery improve insulin resistance? Because we know it does. I'm not saying he's wrong that obesity is an "effect" rather than a cause. But there's no reason not to think that insulin resistance is also an "effect." In other words, there is something else going on that affects both insulin resistance and obesity. We're still missing some pieces of the puzzle, and I'm betting that his hypothesis is going to wind up being just as overly simplistic as its inverse.
Good point. You both agree though that the issue is very complex and definitely needs further scientific analysis.
Second, this clip being posted here illustrates why we have the people who have gone to med school and the people who haven't talking past each other in this thread. The existence of insulin resistance, obesity, unhealthy food options, bad city planning, unfairness in life in general isn't *my* fault either. I didn't create these problems. And concerning the health issues that come through my hospital's doors, I'm doing my best to help solve these problems, using the best available information and tools that I have. But you know, it's kind of a downer when I put others before myself to the point that it affects my quality of life, my health, and I get blamed for not being able to "fix" a lot of society's ills that plenty of people much smarter than I am have grappled with unsuccessfully in the past. And then get upbraided for being upset about the unfairness of the unreasonable expectations people have of me, one of which is that I should be able to function as though I weren't made of flesh and blood myself.
I totally agree with you here. That is why it in my view we should look for ways to improve/revamp the system as a whole because what we have currently seems to be making to many people miserable and encourages blaming other side rather than looking for a workable solutions.
I'd also point out that a significant part of my job as a physician is to make judgments about patients. Evaluating complete strangers and making decisions based upon my knowledge, experience, evidence from literature, etc. is what I get paid for. That includes judging when I think someone is lying to me or otherwise full of s***. It might be tragic if I misjudge someone, but I can't not judge them and still do my job. So that's a risk I have to take with every patient I see. Those of you who don't want to judge people may want to consider not going into a career like medicine where patients' lives can depend on your ability and willingness to judge people.
Here is where I respectfully disagree. At first you say your job is to make judgments but in the second sentence you clarify it as making decisions based on all of the information available. Those two are very different from each other and should not be confused. When you making a judgment about someone's character, you are essentially putting that person into a certain category with its own expectations and preconceived notions. It has been demonstrate numerous times that those expectations will have an influence on the overall flow of interaction and may even influence the outcome in a negative way. This is a lot different from making a decision (or a single judgement call) on whether someone is be lying or not. It does not necessitate you making assumptions about that person's character and rely on those assumptions to consciously (or subconsciously) treat your patient in certain manner. I cannot think of a situation in which this type of bias can be helpful, let along essential for any job that relies on human interaction and trust.

So to sum it up, I think that decision-making is certainly essential part of your job and sometimes the decisions you will make will not be ideal. But judging someone's overall character and think of that person as a sloth based on half-hour interaction probably isn't. It is very hard to keep an open mind and I have been guilty of judging others on multiple occasions in my previous occupations. I do try to work on myself and not let my personal flaws and biases to get the best of me.
 
Here is where I respectfully disagree. At first you say your job is to make judgments but in the second sentence you clarify it as making decisions based on all of the information available. Those two are very different from each other and should not be confused. When you making a judgment about someone's character, you are essentially putting that person into a certain category with its own expectations and preconceived notions. It has been demonstrate numerous times that those expectations will have an influence on the overall flow of interaction and may even influence the outcome in a negative way. This is a lot different from making a decision (or a single judgement call) on whether someone is be lying or not. It does not necessitate you making assumptions about that person's character and rely on those assumptions to consciously (or subconsciously) treat your patient in certain manner. I cannot think of a situation in which this type of bias can be helpful, let along essential for any job that relies on human interaction and trust.

So to sum it up, I think that decision-making is certainly essential part of your job and sometimes the decisions you will make will not be ideal. But judging someone's overall character and think of that person as a sloth based on half-hour interaction probably isn't. It is very hard to keep an open mind and I have been guilty of judging others on multiple occasions in my previous occupations. I do try to work on myself and not let my personal flaws and biases to get the best of me.

I'm with Q on this one. Seriously we have to make these "judgemental" decisions everyday, I think I do more than most since I'm doing urgent care and I almost never see a patient twice. With narcotic seekers, users, abusers, and the legitimate folks I have to decide and determine (or judge) whether they are legitimate or not. We are in a business where everything we write for (i.e. drugs) is tracked, tallied, monitored, etc. so to look at every patient as being sincere just sets you up for DEA investigation and sanctions against your license. Don't judge us until you are in the hot seat on a daily basis.
 
The mental state of your physician and the structure of our healthcare delivery system are very different things. It's fine to say that our system fails to harness human creativity and wellness for optimal effect. And quite another to narrowly confine what is acceptable thought and feeling of your doctor, nurse, etc.

The discussion was initiated on how the physician is making someone feel. Then prescriptions were made on just what is acceptable internal mindscape for a physician to inhabit. I'm sorry I cannot abide a mental North Korea.

Does a pedophile deserve my empathy. They do if you see empathy as a good in itself rather than a tool of rapport and therapeutic alliance. What form should empathy take? Motivational interviewing, brief psychodynamic therapy, behavior change methodologies. What exactly is possible in a ED or urgent care setting where every second interacting with a patient must also be utilized to correctly diagnose, treat, and manage severity of illness. What if you had to repeat that over and over and over quickly for 10 hours just to get through a shift. How are YOUR reflexive listening skills in round 9 of such a battle?

So that it becomes survival and preservation of your own internal economy which is not infinite in its resources. And it's a spectrum not an absolute like in the moral symbology being projected here. Apathy is not antipathy.

In a clinical whirlwind that is a typical shift for a busy doc, I intend to abide my own optimal contentment as indicative of what is the best I have to give to all of it. For me, that involves being somewhere between empathy and apathy in a zen like fashion. I want what is healthy for people. But I cannot control the dominant influences of their life. I believe in allowing my self the emotional flexibility to feel more or less empathetic while striving for enough emotional dispassion to remain a professional agency of my clients' health in all cases that I am capable of.

That is an internal self-assessment. The point I'm trying to make is someone's apathy might be someone else's calm dispassion and that moral judgements on that are misplaced. Heath exists entirely outside of the thousands of bureaucratic skirmishes that comprise a clinical work up. If you want to be healthy, the first thing you ought to know is not to look for it there.
 
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