Affirmative Action and Med School Application

are you applying as disadvantaged status?

Yes.

The song rocks, but affirmative action sucks (because it doesn't help me too much ). At some schools (and I'm sure at most schools), being Asian doesn't help me. I'm white to them!

Originally posted by chrisfeliciano
Not really. For example, in some Ugad programs, they [the admissions committee] factors (ie race) for acceptance. Do they perfom the same actions in Med School Applicants?

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Yes, affirmative action is present in full force for med school applications.

Some would argue the benefit is even greater than that provided to URMs for undergrad.

True story: 28 year oldwhite guy, below 3.0 GPA and sub -30 MCAT gets rejected EVERYWHERE he applies; Relatively powerful MD
"makes a call " to a certain medical school remaining on his list , and BOOM....interview granted. Affirmative action works in various ways. This is not to spark controversy....I just know where this might potentially be headed....down the same hackneyed stream of posts seen on previous aa threads.

It's true. Look at the white/asian guy who got in with a 26 MCAT/2.85 GPA. That example of a non-meritorious admit certainly justifies any non-meritorious preference based on race.

Ryo-Ohki:
Calm yourself. Were you unable to read that I explicitly stated that my comment was not meant to spark controversy ? Jeez.

LUV your ability to use " non-meritorious " correctly in a sentence though.

Asians receive the benefits of AA in areas like federal contracting (construction work, etc). However, they do not receive the benefits of AA in medical school admissions. After all, because you are same race as a lot of other med students, you do not provide "diversity"...nor can you effectively treat patients of races other than your own.

Originally posted by chrisfeliciano
Im ASIAN myself. I heard that they provide less sympathy to some minorites (ie Asians) than hispanics or African-Americans. Is it true. Does it help being a minority but that minority group is Asian?

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this is a pretty touchy issue, but african americans, native americans, and hispanics (minorities from the americas) are the groups that are known as underrepresented minorities (URM's here in the SDN realm)....many of us know this, but maybe to OP hasn't heard of this yet. These minority groups are highly sought after by medical schools and other graduate programs because of the fact that the entire population of these groups are growing quite rapidly (most markedly in the hispanic group....not really in the native americans), but their representation in medicine and the sciences is not.......thus, schools welcome URM applicants, and some have been known to lower their 'bar' in order to accomodate these applicants. As far as other minorities go, there seems to not be quite a shortage of asian physicians and scientists compared to the minorities of the americas, so hence why they may not be as sought out for as other minorities (not to say they are not valuable to our health care system)

I am a Hispanic applicant who was hails from Colombia (now an american citizen). I really haven't gotten the vibe that I've been given any special treatment as an applicant....i have pretty goody stats, which have led to 2 acceptances, 4 rejections, and 2 waitlists (at my top choices.......ugggh). To be honest with you, I'm not really expecting (and really don't care for....unless we're talkin' scholarships )any special treatment.....i write about my heritage and culture in my apps NOT to get any special treatment and milk the fact that I'm an URM, but just to more accurately describe myself to the adcoms

Buena suerte a todos, especialmente a los que estan metidos en el juego de espera

There are some Asians that are considered URMs. The Hmong, for example. Also, if you are from Nepal, Burma/Myanmar, Laos...you will pretty much make the URM list.

You know, going on interviews and everything, I am beginning to wonder about the whole URM thing. I went to one school in particular, whic is housed in a city where 68% of the population is AA. In an incoming class of 150 people, there were only 11 blacks/hispanics! So when I hear about the URM complaints, I begin to wonder where in the world these URMS that schools are working so hard to recruit are...

Any thoughts?

chris, are you pilipino?

here is an interesting exercise: go to mdapplicants.com and do a search by med school... just pick one at random, say Duke. Now browse through the list of profiles of people who were accepted. Once in a while you'll see one with a GPA/MCAT that is significantly lower than average for the bunch. Click on that profile to try to see what is different about that person. I'm not saying it's wrong, in fact I think it's necessary... but it's definitely there.

DAMMIT!!! Who stole my ten foot pole??

regardless of whether or not you think AA sucks...URMs are not stealing your spot in a med school.

if they were how come i dont find a majority of most med school classes consisting of URMs...i mean to see a class with 10% URMs is hard enough to find in almost all of the meds schools here in states...

Originally posted by jlee9531
regardless of whether or not you think AA sucks...URMs are not stealing your spot in a med school.

if they were how come i dont find a majority of most med school classes consisting of URMs...i mean to see a class with 10% URMs is hard enough to find in almost all of the meds schools here in states...

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If, for instance, "URMs" are being allowed into more prestigious universities at greater numbers that their stats merit, where do you suppose those "extra" positions come from?

"Just because you can't handle high school math doesn't mean it's not useful.

I want your reply, luthertakestwointhea$$"

Yep. It's so useful, the majority of med schools don't have any math reqs whatsoeve

Originally posted by Luthertaketwo
If, for instance, "URMs" are being allowed acceptance into more prestigious universities at greater numbers that their stats merit, where do you suppose those "extra" positions come from?

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I don't see it as a matter of "extra positions" in a class but as an effort to increase the quality of life at the school and encourage diversity within the field (who would want to join a med school class of 100% white males?). Medical schools sometimes have to dig a little deeper in the pile numbers-wise to find those people who will make their classes attractive/well-rounded and still thrive in the profession (haven't we all received rejection letters stating that the number of qualified applicants far exceeds the number of available positions?).

Originally posted by No Egrets
I don't see it as a matter of "extra positions" in a class but as an effort to increase the quality of life at the school and encourage diversity within the field (who would want to join a med school class of 100% white males?). Medical schools sometimes have to dig a little deeper in the pile numbers-wise to find those people who will make their classes attractive/well-rounded and still thrive in the profession (haven't we all received rejection letters stating that the number of qualified applicants far exceeds the number of available positions?).

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I asked a question, not for your pathetic pontifications/rationalizations.

But hwere are these URMs? Most of the URMs I know who go to hopkins/Harvard/Emory/Stanford. Kicked butt! So where are the URMs that go to prestigious universities in droves? As jlee already pointed out, it's hard to find schools with a sginficant number of URMs. Think about it: URMs make up to 25 - 20% of the US population collectively, depending in where you are. And they barely make 10% of the entering class in the so-calle dprestigious medical schools?
The argument that URMs are taking someone's spot just doesnt add up when you think of things that way....

Originally posted by mosoriire
someone's spot just doesnt add up when you think of things that way....

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No. Your illogic is what doesn't add up.

URM's are stealing your spots as we speak........deal with it luther

Originally posted by felipe5
URM's are stealing your spots as we speak........deal with it luther

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People out there aren't ignorant toadies. Deal with it.

Originally posted by Luthertaketwo
I asked a question, not for your pathetic pontifications/rationalizations.

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It's called a discussion.

Originally posted by No Egrets
It's called a discussion.

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i agree......

Luther, you ask questions, and then when people give their honest opinions, you disregard them as illogical and pathetic. Who are you to judge that....are you the foremost authority on logic???? sounds like you're the ignorant 'toadie' or whatever the f*** you were harping about earlier

Originally posted by felipe5
URM's are stealing your spots as we speak........deal with it luther

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It really trips me out when people say that some "stole their spot" I heard that alot from ppl at my high school. If luther is as big an ass as he seems online then a spot was never his to have in the first place.

Just a thought

yeah i totally agree.....i only said that to bug luther.....i don't think that URM's take away from anyone else's chances of being accepted.

Originally posted by No Egrets
It's called a discussion.

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No, it's called BS. I asked a simple question: WHERE DO THOSE "EXTRA" SPOTS COME FROM? Hint: THEY AREN'T "EXTRA." People lose those spots on the grounds of what race they were born. You did not discuss the question I posed whatsover; all you did was spew some dogmatic bullcrap.

By any objective measure of quality, some minorities are "stealing" spots from more qualified applicants. Alot have good numbers. But the average accepted mcat for a black applicant is 24.8, the standard deviation is 4.9, which (though my statistics are rusty) puts fully 15% or more black entrants at sub 20 scores. Keep in mind also that, being multiple choice, a first grader will get fully 25% of the questions right as long as he answerers every question. Say what you want about diversity i don't think we want the levels of intelligence of our doctors to be "diverse". Call me arrogant (and I am sure you all will), but if you cannot break 20 on the mcat, YOU SHOULD NOT BE A DOCTOR!

Stop being so blindly PC. You people brainwash yourselves.

Worse yet are puerto ricans of whom a full fifth have pysical science section scores of 5 and biologial scores of 6! a score of 5, maybe 4, is literaly the score you get by knowing nothing. verbal is no better.

I agree that breaking a 20 on the MCAT is sort of an important issue. I cant see how any one who wantes to qualify for medical practice can do so without the requisite test-taking skills.

But then again, different people have different issues and different backgrounds. What if te person who was admitted with a 24L had a 3.9 GPA from Berkley? Would that make you feel better? Or even more commonly, what if an applicant with a 2.9 GPA had a 35Q on the MCAT. Would you feel that would put them in a different position all together?

We keep pretending that only URMs get some sort of break in the admissions process. One of my friends, who is now at UMich, definitely got a break because she was the first person in her family to go to college. Her stats were OK, but definitely close to the URM avg than you'd believe. And she isnt the only one I know of....

Bseides, all the URMs I know who are in medical school right now have some pretty amazing stories behind their acceptances...In my view, it's difficult to weed out who 'shouldnt be there' from those who 'should be'.

Originally posted by mosoriire
I agree that breaking a 20 on the MCAT is sort of an important issue. I cant see how any one who wantes to qualify for medical practice can do so without the requisite test-taking skills.

But then again, different people have different issues and different backgrounds. What if te person who was admitted with a 24L had a 3.9 GPA from Berkley? Would that make you feel better? Or even more commonly, what if an applicant with a 2.9 GPA had a 35Q on the MCAT. Would you feel that would put them in a different position all together?

We keep pretending that only URMs get some sort of break in the admissions process. One of my friends, who is now at UMich, definitely got a break because she was the first person in her family to go to college. Her stats were OK, but definitely close to the URM avg than you'd believe. And she isnt the only one I know of....

Bseides, all the URMs I know who are in medical school right now have some pretty amazing stories behind their acceptances...In my view, it's difficult to weed out who 'shouldnt be there' from those who 'should be'.

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I would be far more forgiving of a low gpa, even sub 3.0 than a horrible MCAT. A low GPA and a high mcat means you are smart but lazy, or smart but you had other things going on that messud up your grades. Things like that are not permanent. If you took all the required classes and still made an 18 (and it wasnt some fluke, you being sick or stoned or something) , you are never going to be smart.

would it make a difference if person who did bad on the mcat had a super GPA? of course. But this is not the reality of AA, the GPA averages are just as bad as the MCAT averages.

And you are right that other people get breaks, but they are a much smaller % and the lesser of the two evils. Though from a fairness stand point, a person getting in by knowing someone or being a legacy is just as reprehensible as getting in becuase of your skin color. legacies ect should be stopped as well, at least in public schools.

Why even have to break 20? I think any double digit MCAT score is fine.

I mean, a medical school wouldn't reject me for having such a sub-30 MCAT score automatically, now would it?

ladies and gents,
numbers dont always do us justice. some people on this site think that they should get in on numbers alone, that they are entitlied to being a doc. they are wrong, those are the docs with horrible bedside manners who only see a diagnosis and not a human. those are the smae individuals who treat nurses, med techs, and other hospital workers like crap. i would not want to go to med school with someone like that. no none is stealing anything from anyone. if you have high numbers and got interviewed but didnt make accept responsibility for your failures and try again using your bad experience as motivation. dont come one here saying that your seat was stolen.

Originally posted by getianshi
Word.....

Especially people who fit this description and who's handles contain the name "luther."

God help any minority who ends up as his patient......if he even bothers to treat them.

Of course, since URM's "stole" all his spots I guess none of us have to worry.....

whew!

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Yes, cause we all know that anyone who points out the racist and classist flaws in AA is a minority-hating etc, etc.

I look forward to "stealing" someones spot this year!

according to the AAMC Filipinos are considered underrepresented minorities, so they are in the Affirmative Action group.....as far as I understand.

To luther and all other AA haters;

Let's put thing's straight. Affirmative action isn't just for minorities. The biggest benefactor of AA was the white woman. Before AA they were considered second class citizens.

Next, this idea about extras spots is ridiculous. Let's breakdown this concept. If 20 (ouf of 120) spots are "reserved" for minorities, and there are 300 minority applicants...you do the math. Minorities have to compete with other subsets of minorities and there white counterparts. It has already been proven that standardized tests are socially biased, but that a whole different discussion. In short, to gain admission to medical school as minority is much more difficult.

You (AA haters and luther) must think that every minority students profile is worse than every white medical students In fact, minority students are usually the cream of the crop of minority students. AA just states that you can discriminate on race, gender, etc. Grade/MCAT discrimination is legal to aby race and gender. The statement made about people who can't break a 20 on the MCAT shouldn't be physicians is stupid also. I know of people who have had scored 30's (whit and minority) and still failed in med school. There is a concept of academic profile which includes grades, MCAT, LOR, and volunteer experience. Medicine involves much more than academics. In many aspects, your a social worker, administrator, business manager, and teacher. A 30 on the MCAT or 4.0 GPA doesn't day anything about your people skills.

Finally, all med students take the same test and classes. If a student doesn't belong there, they will weed themselves out. People like luther are usually the type of person that have pretty descent grades, good MCATs, and good overall application. However, he/she continues to receive rejections, while a minority that he knows has gained admission. I believe that you need to take a close look at yourself. Your racist personality probably comes across during the interviews.

So please, don't think all people of color don't belong in med school because their GPA isn't equal to yours or the MCAT doesn't meet your expectations. Because at the end of it all we are all called Doctor.

Thanks.

Dr. Ex-Fix
Orthopedic resident

"Let's put thing's straight. Affirmative action isn't just for minorities. The biggest benefactor of AA was the white woman. Before AA they were considered second class citizens."

No. They weren't considered second class citizens. You ever heard the saying "women and children first?" And of course they WERE the biggest benefactors, simply because of how many of them there are. Pretty simple statistics. In any case, this is two-thousand and god damn FOUR, not 1970.

"Next, this idea about extras spots is ridiculous."

Of course it is; there are no extra spots. Try to keep up with us, eh?

"If 20 (ouf of 120) spots are "reserved" for minorities, and there are 300 minority applicants...you do the math. Minorities have to compete with other subsets of minorities and there white counterparts."

You are a freakin resident and you don't know the difference between there and their? No wonder everything proceeding thus far, and following for that matter, makes zero sense.

"It has already been proven that standardized tests are socially biased, "

"Socially biased?" Define this. And where is your proof?

"but that a whole different discussion. In short, to gain admission to medical school as minority is much more difficult."

Where is your proof? More diiffcult compared to? Asians don't seem to have a problem -- forgot about them, huh? Oh, I forgot, "successful" minorities aren't truly minorities.

I'm boggling here.

Once again, you assume that successful minorities are only asian. Asian's are probably not considered minority, because they are not under-represented in academics. At historically black colleges and universities, a caucasian student is considered a minority.

Socially biased? The public education system in Beverly Hills, CA is probably better than the schools in Harlem, NY. The english spoken in Harlem is probably spoken differently in Beverly Hills. I know some of this has to do with economics, but culture also plays a big role in how one comprehends what he reads.

Oh yeah, just because you don't have enough intelligence to understand my post doesn't mean that my post makes zero sense. Did you hire a tutor to help you make sense of all the rejection letters you received?

Luther, you have expressed alot of anger in this forum. I don't know what happened to make you hate us so much. I hope you find inner peace.

You never know, you may be involved in a trauma, and your surgeon may be a minority that had a MCAT of 20 and GPA of 2.9. If you have a Grade III liver Lac and Class II-III hemmorrhage, what are you going to do? Ask him his MCAT score before you go to the OR?

You did not respond on why you're so full of anger. Maybe you have the 1970's white man superiority complex. I don't know your problem. Personally I don't care.

Remember, Luther, you are trying to get where I am. When you get admitted to med school then post your two cents worth.

Originally posted by Ex-fix
Next, this idea about extras spots is ridiculous. Let's breakdown this concept. If 20 (ouf of 120) spots are "reserved" for minorities, and there are 300 minority applicants...you do the math. Minorities have to compete with other subsets of minorities and there white counterparts. It has already been proven that standardized tests are socially biased, but that a whole different discussion. In short, to gain admission to medical school as minority is much more difficult.

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Yes. I understand perfectly. It's like you're dreaming about gorgonzola cheese when it's clearly brie time, baby.


People do not want to be discriminated on the basis of their race. Why is that such a hard concept for proponents to understand?

Yes, cause we all know that anyone who points out the racist and classist flaws in AA is a minority-hating

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The issue isnt that you pointed out the flaws. After all, there are other peopl on this thread who have chipped in their two cents. The issue is the way you have handled the argument. You sound bitter, frustrated, angry, infact, you epitomize the 'angry white man' syndrome, not unrelated to the 'angry black man syndrome'. maybe if you approached the subject with more of a negotiative view, you wouldnt be making such an ass of yourself

Originally posted by mosoriire
The issue isnt that you pointed out the flaws. After all, there are other peopl on this thread who have chipped in their two cents. The issue is the way you have handled the argument. You sound bitter, frustrated, angry, infact, you epitomize the 'angry white man' syndrome, not unrelated to the 'angry black man syndrome'. maybe if you approached the subject with more of a negotiative view, you wouldnt be making such an ass of yourself

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Whenever an AA proponent starts getting owned: You are a KKK/skin head; you are an angry white X; you are, you are, you are.

Gotta love extremists that want you to be a centrist merely so they can pull you closer to their disgustingly ignorant viewpoint. Be gone with your classism, your racism.

Originally posted by Luthertaketwo
Whenever an AA proponent starts getting owned: You are a KKK/skin head; you are an angry white X; you are, you are, you are.

Gotta love extremists that want you to be a centrist merely so they can pull you closer to their disgustingly ignorant viewpoint. Be gone with your classism, your racism.

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LUTHERTAKETWO SUCKS. Get a life. Go to $%*. You're the stinking piece of junk in this world. I am disgusted to become a doctor if there's a doctor like you out there.