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Which US NEWS ranking is normally considered more significant--the "research" or "primary care" rankings? Like when people say "top ten" schools, to which list are they typically referring?
medical school rankings
- Thread starter curiouslygeorge
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curiouslygeorge said:
Research-- the primary care means bunkum. For the most part, the higher the mean matriculant MCAT, the more prestigious the school.
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Research
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nope.bbaek said:
research = research (as in grant funding, etc.)
primary = primary care (as in percentage of grads who go into primary care residencies)
it has nothing to do with MD/DO, other than the de facto observation that very little meaningful research goes on at DO schools (hence, you'll never find one in the top 50 or however many they list).
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Research schools will be the ones that give their candidates the most ability to compete for more advanced residencies. Where you went to med school definitely matters when it comes to match time.
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Right, because they couldn't possibly be interested in getting into competitive residencies.RoccoWJ said:
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RoccoWJ said:
Some people are really rather delusional. In general, prestigious schools have their pick of students, and their pick of students is generally based on the academic credentials of students. This is an incredibly basic reality. Further, if you think competitive drive is not an important factor in people's entering medicine, you really are rather naive. If you just want to help people, why don't you go be a nurse or social worker?
I said "for the most part"-- which is exactly accurate. You're not going to find a school that has a matriculant MCAT near the national matriculant average, but is highly prestigious, or a school with a high average matriculant MCAT that is not prestigious. I didn't say that the MCAT/prestige correlation was 1, but that it is probably around .85-.9. The fact that the #1 out of 125 schools in terms of mat. MCAT is around #5 out of 125 in terms of prestige exactly supports my statement that "for the most part" prestige and MCAT are correlated.
TheProwler said:Right, because they couldn't possibly be interested in getting into competitive residencies.
there are schools that are not ranked in the top 50 by US NEWS that have the same if not more students matching into the "top" residencies....if u do i search...i posted a comparison some time back.......so medical school "prestige" has VERY little if anything to do with getting into a good residency program....what matters if your board scores and how well you do in your medical school classes......i know im gonna get flamed for this...but this is wat i believe.
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drguy22 said:
uh oh...
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Cuz NJMS is just as good at matching as UCSF.
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I was just quoting you from the other thread, whether it's accurate or not I do not know.
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drguy22 said:
The "value added" by a top med school is, as far as I know, not very well quantified. There have been numerous match lists posted around SDN over the years, and there is no doubt that, in general, the number of derm, ortho, neurosurgery, rads, optho, etc. matches and the number of matches at elite programs is quite a bit higher at top-10 schools than at top-30 schools, and more from top-30 schools than from sub-average prestige schools.
But, how much of this is due to the fact that the top-10 schools are largely populated by academic/research overachievers and how much is actually due to the school's name or the opportunities available at the school is very open to debate. The reality is, if you take a 36 MCAT/3.9 gpa/good people skills/a couple of years of undergrad research and a committment to continuing it in med school candidate, and stick him or her at pretty much any med school, that person is overwhelmingly likely going to do well in the match.
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I saw the old thread when it was still going. I disagree. You CAN get a good residency from a mediocre school, but you're more likely to get a good one if you went to a good school.drguy22 said:
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drguy22 said:
you're an idiot, man. but you're so naive i can't hold anything against you... you're just so clueless and happy in all of your posts. i'm glad you're happy where you are, though. i've always liked happy, clueless doctors because they're genuinely good people...
constructor said:
hahaha clueless doctors???? i dont think so buddy....ya im a happy person most of the time....maybe thats wat will make me a better doctor..not all this competative BS people like to pull....as for me bein an idiot i can say the same for you as well....just b/c i dont believe in your "theory" doesnt mean im an idiot.....if fact are u the one thats an idiot that left BROWN medical school to pursue something better???? according to ur dumb theory...it could have bought u one of the best residency....y did u let it go? Now wouldnt that be condidered idiotic?
look dude, i have my priorities straight...and my priority is to become a doctor, and a good one at tat. If you feel that by going to a "TOP" medical school, youll be a better doctor, then go for it...but u have no right to tell me that im wrong unless you have concrete evidence with your claim. because i remember clealry one of the statements you made in the other thread...." id bet that the worst student at UCSF is better than the best student at NJMS" sumthin along those lines.....now if thats not idiotic i dont know wat it?
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skhichi said:
Absolutely not. I went to a "primary care" community campus of a large medical school. Of the 48 in my class, five (including me) are at the Mayo Clinic. One at Johns Hopkins, another at Cleveland Children's. One to UCSF, another to Stanford, the list goes on...
The USN&WR rankings mean absolutely nothing when it comes to getting a residency.
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Oh god, not this argument again.FoughtFyr said:
Listen ppl, this has been argued, debated and covered to death. If you go to a 'lower ranked' school, it doesn't mean you won't get a great residency. Many do. It's just that you will have an easier time (relatively speaking of course) getting one if you go to a 'higher ranked' school.
Not to mention the leeway factor. God forbid you should bomb somewhere along the path of your medical school career, the name of a prestigious school alone can somehow salvage your chances.
Basically, if you want a good residency, you are gonna have to work your ass off. Its just that at a higher ranked school, not so much ass working as you would need to do at a lower ranked school.
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Maybe this has already been said, but I'll post my theory anyways.
The reason that those at "top schools" match at higher rates (which they do, this cannot be disputed) is less because the school has a great name and more because students at those schools are better students, on average. The students at Harvard, Hopkins, Stanford, Columbia, Penn, etc., tend to be the cream of the crop. These students not only maintain a high gpa and do well on the MCAT, they also have impressive resumes filled with meaningful activities and experiences.
When match time roles around, these students are still above average medical students. This factors into residency matching, and the name of the school from whence they came is just icing on the cake. It's a perpetuating cycle.
The reason that those at "top schools" match at higher rates (which they do, this cannot be disputed) is less because the school has a great name and more because students at those schools are better students, on average. The students at Harvard, Hopkins, Stanford, Columbia, Penn, etc., tend to be the cream of the crop. These students not only maintain a high gpa and do well on the MCAT, they also have impressive resumes filled with meaningful activities and experiences.
When match time roles around, these students are still above average medical students. This factors into residency matching, and the name of the school from whence they came is just icing on the cake. It's a perpetuating cycle.
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KNightInBlue said:
What is always interesting to me is how this is often debated - in the pre-med forums. Give it a rest. Take it from those people, myself included, who have actually gotten residency positions! The "big name" schools mean absolutely squat in the residency match. Where you go is nowhere near as important as other factors over which the student has direct control. These include, in no particular order, USMLE Step 1 (and sometimes 2) scores, LORs, performance on "audition rotations", clinical grades, AOA (for the most competitive specialties), and the dean's letter. There are advantages in smaller, less competitve schools. These include large numbers of clinical faculty who work directly with students (thus writing more personal LORs), less competition for AOA status, and more personal relations with administration (i.e., better "dean's letters").
As a previous poster suggested, the availability of "top name" faculty at "big name" schools does improve the general strength of LORs. That said, anyone can access these folks through away rotations.
Take it from someone who has been there; the key to medical school is that you get out of it what you put in to it, and this is no more obvious than during residency application.
BTW - to suggest that a top name school will get you past a "hiccup" during school, is pure "bovine scatology". The hypercompetitive nature of these institutions nearly insures that if you fall, you fall hard, and you may do so in front of the leaders of the field you wish to enter. Community institution based schools can not afford to have anyone fail, they, in contrast to the top name schools, will work to assist anyone who needs it during training.
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Boo hoo, from what I hear consumer driven healthcare will be here soon. If residency directors don't care what school you went to, the average uneducated layman surely will, and if it ends up being their choice (which seems to be the future), they're gonna pick the doc with the diploma from harvard over the one with the diploma from Drex.
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Oh, goodie, anecdotal evidence used to generalize in an argument. I'm convinced. Yay.
I saw someone (one person) at Yale with a 26 MCAT. I guess MCATs don't matter either.
Edit: btw, 48 in your class. did you go to mayo? if so, what point are you trying to prove?--that a top medical school will land you a spot at mayo clinic?
I saw someone (one person) at Yale with a 26 MCAT. I guess MCATs don't matter either.
Edit: btw, 48 in your class. did you go to mayo? if so, what point are you trying to prove?--that a top medical school will land you a spot at mayo clinic?
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BigRedPingpong said:
Nope, I didn't go to Mayo. I went to a US school considerably further down the rankings. But every year I was there our match list was quite competitive. I am at Mayo now, as are many of my classmates.
BTW - where did you get your MD? And exactly how did your college effect your residency match?
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Pinkertinkle said:
From volunteer experience on the wards, I hear patients talk about the quality of their doctor by his/her ability to interact with patients, experience and quality of work. I have never heard a patient describe the ability of their doctor by the medical school they attended... Although I will admit, initially a Harvard degree may attract more interest.
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Pinkertinkle said:
Really, is this the same public that believes chiropractors are MDs who specialize in back problems?
And I will agree that there is a HUGE difference between US allopathic schools and international institutions. That was not the question in the OP. Is there a difference between someone at Ross and someone at Rush in terms of the residency match? Absolutely! Between Rush and Harvard with all other things completely equal? Probably less than you think.
And do you really think that people "shop" for doctors based on where they went to medical school? If so, how does residency fit in? I mean, do you go to the doctor who has an MD from Harvard and was resdiency trained in a small, community based FP program, or the one who went to Chicago Med and then did an internal medicine residency at UCSF?
Give it a rest folks! If you are lucky enough to get in to medical school, and even more blessed to be accepted to several institutions, choose the one at which you are most comfortable. That comfort will allow you to be as successful as possible, which will do far more for your residency match than anything else...
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FoughtFyr said:
I am talking about the future, not the current state of healthcare. Right now, most people are assigned a doctor through their HMO, choose from a limited number in a PPO, or other health plan. Consumer driven healthcare, which is growing and may come to dominate healthcare, will foster more competition among doctors. Much as the rise of the 401(k) gave the public the choice of where to put their money, Health Savings Accounts will allow employees greater say in their decisions on choosing a physician. At that point, whether we like it or not, the uneducated public will start making such decisions, and the medical school of their physician will play an important role in many consumers' initial decisions.
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The discussion seems to have focused on if prestige helps for getting residencies.
What role does prestige play in getting a good job after your residency? I always prefer to think two steps ahead.
What role does prestige play in getting a good job after your residency? I always prefer to think two steps ahead.
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Pinkertinkle said:
Assuming there is a choice to be had. By that I mean that in many specialities, there is no choice. I am in emergency medicine - no choice. Pick your radiologist? Anesthesiologist? How about choosing your pathologist?
You are right to some degree for primary care specialties, in areas of physician surplus. But in most of the country HMO and PPO lists are not the limiting factor, availability is. BTW - back in the days of 80/20 insurance, it still didn't matter much. And you get a very pretty certificate of completion from residency to hang on your wall.
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chess_king said:
I don't know. I am not in practice yet. Unlike some of the folks here, I will not try to tell you "how it is" in something I have not gone through.
I have gone through residency recruitment, and during that process the programs seemed to make a big deal about the number of graduates they had, inferring that "networking" plays a role in hiring. Similiarly, I know that I significantly "down ranked" a program on my match list because as of February they still had PGY-3s without job offers.
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prestige doesn't matter to me, but i think you're wrong to think that there's no difference b/w the highly prestigious schools in choosing a med school but i agree that too many people go into medicine for the wrong reasonsRoccoWJ said:
for those going for highly competitive specialties, i think usnews rank very frequently has a huge bearing. the highly reputable schools match better with highly competitive residencies. can you go to a school that's not as reputable and match well? sure, but going to a school seen as one of the tops WILL give you an advantage for a highly competitive specialty.RoccoWJ said:
yeah there are some schools that aren't ranked that match very well, but by and large the usnews research rankings are a good guideline. furthermore, a person that attends a school like harvard and gets a 230 step 1 is often in a better position than someone who goes to a less reputable school with the same score.drguy22 said:
okay dude, congrats on the acceptance, I'm not gonna flame ya but you're wrong!drguy22 said:yup..tats rite...did u say tat sarcastically??? or did ya really mean it?...Pinkertinkle said:
i still say they're a good guidelineFoughtFyr said:
prestige doesn't play much of a role in getting a job AFTER your residency, but it can have a huge impact on GETTING a highly competitive residency. you can think ahead as much as you want, but you can't castle when your knight's in the way, chess_king. so you're right, after residency, prestige won't matter too much, if at all, but to get a highly competitive residency in the first place you are at an advantage going to a prestigious school. again...advantage...but not requiredchess_king said:
okay drguy22
here's your school: UMDNJ-Newark
here's some of the more prestigious schools:
Stanford
Michigan
Harvard
Hopkins
WashU
Yale
UPenn
umdnj matches well but it's not in the same field as these more prestigious schools. look at the count of the specialties and the actual residency programs
again prestige doesn't mean much to me and if you're going to med school for prestige rather than because of what it can do for you, then yeah maybe you need to consider what becoming a physician is all about. medicine is not about money, lifestyle, or prestige
BUT for those considering competitive specialties, rankings/prestige can make a very big difference and i think you're gonna have a hard time arguing that umdnj is on a level playing field when it comes to the match as harvard or hopkins
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hyphencracy said:
Wrong, wrong and oh yeah, WRONG! Go through the process first, then come back and discuss. For kicks, stroll around the websites of the residency programs you consider "competitive". Read, where they are posted, the schools at which the current residents trained. The answers will surprise you.
hyphencracy said:
Once again, I'm going to go with... WRONG! First of all, a 230 is not all that stellar a score. So, it is unlikely that the Harvard grad will be AOA with that score. He/she will also not likely be described as "the best in the class" in anything. Harvard is simply too competitive. However, the "lesser" school grad with that score may well be AOA. They may well be the "head of the class" in some required coursework. It is far more likely that they will have LORs that demonstrate the most strident suport, without reservation. Keeping in mind that residency is a job, those factors go very far. It is far, far better to be the big fish in the little pond than vise versa. It brings your best qualities forward to notice.
hyphencracy said:
Well, given that interview season is going to start soon and we are expected to help, I better run to my program director's office and demand my copy because I have no idea who is ranked #1!
hyphencracy said:
Based on what? You are simply taking a short-sighted, ill-informed view. The rank order process is SO much more complex as to consider this drivel.
If you believe the rankings matter so much, what about the student who does an "away rotation" (a.k.a. "externship") at the "top school" and gets high honors? Does that count more than one done at other schools? And what about a school's specific strength? The University of Cinncinnati is considered the "birthplace" of emergency medicine. Are you telling me that an EM program director would rather have a student from Harvard who aced EM at his/her "home school" than one who did so at Cinncinnati?
Oh my gosh, look at this...
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=1302233&postcount=157
Finch had more ortho matches than Harvard? Say it isn't so...
hyphencracy said:
Pure bovine scatology. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. ANYONE who does well in medical school, has great board scores, strong letters of rec., AOA, and a great dean's letter will do fine in the match in any specialty. You should go to the institution where you are most comfortable. It is there that you will most likely be sucessful and thus most likely to match.
Once again, I urge you, go talk to those who have been through the process. If you are truly torn, with acceptances at a "top ten" school and some "lesser" institution, pick a dream residency program (any one will do) and talk to the interns there. Ask them if they feel the USN&WR rankings matter. They have just been through the residency match and are far better sources of advice than the pre-med forum. Speaking as an intern in a competitive residency program, be prepared for laughter. (You've been warned
)BTW - In my class we had a couple who couples matched into derm and optho at Iowa. Not to shabby for an "unranked" school.
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Top 10 med schools, surprisingly, lie somewhere in the middle of the pack when it comes to Step I score averages. Why then are the match lists from these schools still much more impressive? Hint: starts with the letter "P" and ends with "restige".
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IndyZX said:
Those 2 yes. How about the rest? Columbia also has a highish average in the 230s. Yale, Harvard, and Duke's are a bit lower... Yale I believe is mid to low 220s (ie. a few points above the national mean). Dunno about the rest.
Oh my gosh this has gone too far. Since when did Step 1 scores predict how good of a doctor you will be.
Has it ever occured to you that being a doctor is a clinical experience rather than basic science knowledge. EVERY SCHOOL IN THE US HAS THE SAME FIRST TWO YEAR CURRICULUM so using Step 1 as a guideline is useless.
What sets medical schools apart is the clinical experience. This is where hospitals like MGH, JHH, Mayo Clinic, Barnes Jewish, UCSF have a huge advantage. The clinical experience makes the doctor, and lets face it, the clincal experience at these "top" schools are oftentimes superior to those at lesser schools, especialy for specialties.
Sure, you can argue that you might get "more" experience at a community hosital where you "do" more, but in the end, there is a reason why everyone wants to get treated for everything at JHH.
Has it ever occured to you that being a doctor is a clinical experience rather than basic science knowledge. EVERY SCHOOL IN THE US HAS THE SAME FIRST TWO YEAR CURRICULUM so using Step 1 as a guideline is useless.
What sets medical schools apart is the clinical experience. This is where hospitals like MGH, JHH, Mayo Clinic, Barnes Jewish, UCSF have a huge advantage. The clinical experience makes the doctor, and lets face it, the clincal experience at these "top" schools are oftentimes superior to those at lesser schools, especialy for specialties.
Sure, you can argue that you might get "more" experience at a community hosital where you "do" more, but in the end, there is a reason why everyone wants to get treated for everything at JHH.
Residency NJMS JHU Stanford
Dermatology 4 6 7
general surgery 11 9 3
plastic surgery 1 3 1
Radiology(all) 13 9 11
anesthesiology 8 3 7
ortho surgery 8 6 5
here is a nice little side by side comparison.....i chose just a few competative ones....i compared NJMS with the "legendary" johns hopkins.....and stanford
Dermatology 4 6 7
general surgery 11 9 3
plastic surgery 1 3 1
Radiology(all) 13 9 11
anesthesiology 8 3 7
ortho surgery 8 6 5
here is a nice little side by side comparison.....i chose just a few competative ones....i compared NJMS with the "legendary" johns hopkins.....and stanford
drguy22 said:
you cant compare match lists b/c we have no idea who chose to go into what that year. Its possible that half of hopkins could match derm, but only four wanted to do it that year. In addition, Derm at mass gen isnt the same as matching derm at podunk U med. Matching IM at JHH might be harder than orthopedics at podunk U med center.
drguy, you need to stop trying to convince everyone else that your education is just as worthy at whatever school you are at. you just come off looking like you are insecure. i'm sure you'll do well at your school and become a fine doctor in the specialty of your choice. you dont need to resort to comparing your school with others to accomplish that.
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exmike said:
couldn't say it any better... you pointed out two important reasons why you can't just compare the match lists. i'm sure njms grads aren't placing into mass general for the competitive residencies and i'm also sure that at other schools that are better, students might not be interested in going into the competitive residencies and the match list does not reflect this fact at all. an example is ucsf, where most people go into primary care (not competitive), although if they wanted to do the most competitive residencies i'm sure just about every one of those people going into primary care would get in... definitely not true of njms or other schools that are mediocre at best (and that's being generous).
