This is not fair!! for the Canadian foreign dentsts

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dents in dente

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?@?@Unfortunately as of February 9th 2004, graduates from Qualifying Program of UWO will not receive a DDS or DMD. The policy, which the University of Western Ontario adheres to and which has been mandated by the Canadian Dental Association (CDA) unduly lessens opportunities and restrains fair competition for qualifying program students.

?@?@The definition of terminology used in a dental profession eliminates fair competition. Certificate denotes a trade skill, while DDS denotes an academic degree.

1. The following quote defines the term, DDS(Doctor of Dental Surgery) degree, which is awarded to all graduates of the dental school at U.W.O. excluding qualifying program students.
?@?@Especifically the DDS program is designed to graduate students who are able to pass the National Dental Examining Board of Canada Written Examination and Objective Structured Clinical Examination (OSCE), receive a certificate to practice dentistry in Canada and have the prerequisites to apply for most advanced training programs. These graduates will posses the knowledge and skill to conduct a quality general practice and also sufficient knowledge of basic science to permit and stimulate professional and intellectual growth (School of Dentistry Official Website, U.W.O).

2. Granted that UWO Dental faculty do not lower the academic standards for QP students in order to allow them to pass academic requirements; granted that QP students and regular students in the DDS program are integrated in the same classrooms and the same dental clinics at the university; granted that both end up applying for the same license to practice, and granted that both categories of dentists graduate from UWO only when they acquire what it takes to pass the NDEB and the OSCE, as well as what it takes to receive a certificate to practice dentistry in Canada and what it takes to apply for most advanced training programs,it follows that qualifying program students are denied a title that they deserve. Refusal to grant qualifying program students with the DDS degree results in or is likely to result in a reduction or limitation of the real value of qualifying students expertise as well as a disadvantaged position in the job competition in Canadian dental practices.

3. QP students (in their 1st year) and regular DDS program students (in their 3rd year) are integrated within the same classes as are 2nd year QP students and 4th year regular students.

4. Both classes receive the same lectures, study and are supervised under the same full-time professors, and must fulfill the same clinical requirements for graduation.

5. If QP students are not up to the same level of competence as DDS students, then they do not graduate in the first place, nor are they given the opportunity to apply for a license to practice dentistry in Canada, like the regular students.

6. QP students have always had a higher output in the clinical field due to their prior years of experience. This fact has been acknowledged by Dr. Cogan, Dean of the School of Dentistry, in a speech during the graduation ceremony of the qualifying program in May 2003.

7. Work opportunities are compromised for Western QP students because they do not carry a recognized degree from a North American university. Despite QP students' competence and license to practice, despite the superior quality of their training from UWO, QP students end up having less of an edge when it comes to competing for jobs in Canada. A number of QP graduates can attest to the fact that they have always been placed on the defensive when they had to explain to potential employers looking for associates, where the Qualifying Program stands with regards to the DDS or the DMD programs. Some have not yet found associate work, and some have been refused an interview. With hundreds of students graduating all over Canada carrying DDS and DMD degrees, it is not surprising that QP dentists have a lesser advantage in the competition for jobs.

8.?@The amount of money that QP students pay does not justify a lesser title.
QP students now pay approximately $36,000 per year for tuition alone, not to mention books, equipment, and miscellaneous expenses. Surely, such a large sum of money is not being charged for a sub par program, nor should it be charged for a certificate program. QP students willingly incur a debt load in excess of $100,000 trusting that they are receiving the best training and education only to discover, when they graduate, that their certificate limits their options.?@Refusal to grant qualifying program students with the DDS degree eliminates fair competition based on the North American Free Trade Agreement. Dentists are listed under the list of Medical/Allied Professionals in Appendix 1603.D.1 of the North American Free Trade Agreement, each Party shall grant temporary entry and provide confirming documentation to a business person seeking to engage in a business activity at a professional level in a profession set out in Appendix 1603.D.1, if the business person otherwise complies with existing immigration measures applicable to temporary entry. . . . (http://www.dfait-maeci.gc.ca/nafta-alena/chap16-en.asp). The following is evidence that qualifying program dentists are not permitted to practice dentistry in the U.S.

9. Upon successful completion of the Qualifying Program and the NBDE examinations, the candidate will be eligible for licensure/registration in all provinces of Canada. NOTE: Currently, these programs are not recognized in United States licensing jurisdictions as meeting the educational qualification for licensure.(Website of the Association of Canadian Faculties of Dentistry www.acfd.ca/eligibility.html)

10. Only graduates receiving a DDS or DMD degree from a U.S. or Canadian dental school may take the NERB regional dental licensing examination accepted in the 15 Northeastern U.S. states (fax from the North East Regional Board of Dental Examiners, INC.)

11. Some members of the CDA (Canadian Dental Association) consider that the completion of a degree will lead to the export of QP graduates to the US and therefore a loss of these individuals from the Canadian professional community at our expense (excerpt from an e-mail written by Dr. Kogon, Director of the U.W.O School of Dentistry A copy is available upon request). Please note: It is NOT up to U.W.O. or to the CDA to restrict where licensed QP dentists should practice. All licensed dentists in Canada should have equal opportunities and freedoms.

12. Foreign trained dentists all over North America who complete a two year program from an accredited Dental school are granted a DDS or DMD degree except for only three universities in North America, all three of which are Canadian: The University of Western Ontario, The University of Toronto, and Dalhousie University.

13. Three accredited dental schools in Canada provide a two year DMD or DDS program to foreign-trained dentists: The University of British Columbia, the University of Manitoba and Alberta University. Foreign trained dentists who graduate with a certificate from the qualifying program of U.W.O. are no less competent than foreign-trained dentists who graduate with a DDS or DMD degree from UBC, UM or AU.


?@?@Not only are QP students disadvantaged in future prospects because of a lesser title, they are also disadvantaged in their own universities when it comes to equal footing with DDS program students.

1. One form of differentiation between the two programs on campus is manifested in the UWODSS, which is the student body representing UWO dental students. QP students are not allowed to join or become members the UWODSS despite the fact that their counterparts in the regular DDS program have this privilege. This lack in QP students' rights to become members in the UWODSS, is a hint of a gap between the QP students and the DDS students, one, which may be carried through and exacerbated once both parties have entered the work field.

2. Another form of differentiation can be seen in the graduation ceremonies. Both categories of students graduate separately. See table below:

?@?@Graduation Ceremony of DDS Students Graduation Ceremony of QP Students several awards are given such as -best _____________ -best _____________
?@?@Two awards only are given to students competing only with other QP students (12 students in total). Representatives from the ODA (Ontario Dental Association) are present and provide each student with a membership certificate. Representative for the 2003 ceremony were absent due to personal reasons, and QP students were not given their membership certificates.






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dents in dente said:
?@?@Unfortunately as of February 9th 2004, graduates from Qualifying Program of UWO will not receive a DDS or DMD. The policy, which the University of Western Ontario adheres to and which has been mandated by the Canadian Dental Association (CDA) unduly lessens opportunities and restrains fair competition for qualifying program students.

?@?@The definition of terminology used in a dental profession eliminates fair competition. Certificate denotes a trade skill, while DDS denotes an academic degree.

1. The following quote defines the term, DDS(Doctor of Dental Surgery) degree, which is awarded to all graduates of the dental school at U.W.O. excluding qualifying program students.
?@?@Especifically the DDS program is designed to graduate students who are able to pass the National Dental Examining Board of Canada Written Examination and Objective Structured Clinical Examination (OSCE), receive a certificate to practice dentistry in Canada and have the prerequisites to apply for most advanced training programs. These graduates will posses the knowledge and skill to conduct a quality general practice and also sufficient knowledge of basic science to permit and stimulate professional and intellectual growth (School of Dentistry Official Website, U.W.O).

2. Granted that UWO Dental faculty do not lower the academic standards for QP students in order to allow them to pass academic requirements; granted that QP students and regular students in the DDS program are integrated in the same classrooms and the same dental clinics at the university; granted that both end up applying for the same license to practice, and granted that both categories of dentists graduate from UWO only when they acquire what it takes to pass the NDEB and the OSCE, as well as what it takes to receive a certificate to practice dentistry in Canada and what it takes to apply for most advanced training programs,it follows that qualifying program students are denied a title that they deserve. Refusal to grant qualifying program students with the DDS degree results in or is likely to result in a reduction or limitation of the real value of qualifying students expertise as well as a disadvantaged position in the job competition in Canadian dental practices.

3. QP students (in their 1st year) and regular DDS program students (in their 3rd year) are integrated within the same classes as are 2nd year QP students and 4th year regular students.

4. Both classes receive the same lectures, study and are supervised under the same full-time professors, and must fulfill the same clinical requirements for graduation.

5. If QP students are not up to the same level of competence as DDS students, then they do not graduate in the first place, nor are they given the opportunity to apply for a license to practice dentistry in Canada, like the regular students.

6. QP students have always had a higher output in the clinical field due to their prior years of experience. This fact has been acknowledged by Dr. Cogan, Dean of the School of Dentistry, in a speech during the graduation ceremony of the qualifying program in May 2003.

7. Work opportunities are compromised for Western QP students because they do not carry a recognized degree from a North American university. Despite QP students' competence and license to practice, despite the superior quality of their training from UWO, QP students end up having less of an edge when it comes to competing for jobs in Canada. A number of QP graduates can attest to the fact that they have always been placed on the defensive when they had to explain to potential employers looking for associates, where the Qualifying Program stands with regards to the DDS or the DMD programs. Some have not yet found associate work, and some have been refused an interview. With hundreds of students graduating all over Canada carrying DDS and DMD degrees, it is not surprising that QP dentists have a lesser advantage in the competition for jobs.

8.?@The amount of money that QP students pay does not justify a lesser title.
QP students now pay approximately $36,000 per year for tuition alone, not to mention books, equipment, and miscellaneous expenses. Surely, such a large sum of money is not being charged for a sub par program, nor should it be charged for a certificate program. QP students willingly incur a debt load in excess of $100,000 trusting that they are receiving the best training and education only to discover, when they graduate, that their certificate limits their options.?@Refusal to grant qualifying program students with the DDS degree eliminates fair competition based on the North American Free Trade Agreement. Dentists are listed under the list of Medical/Allied Professionals in Appendix 1603.D.1 of the North American Free Trade Agreement, each Party shall grant temporary entry and provide confirming documentation to a business person seeking to engage in a business activity at a professional level in a profession set out in Appendix 1603.D.1, if the business person otherwise complies with existing immigration measures applicable to temporary entry. . . . (http://www.dfait-maeci.gc.ca/nafta-alena/chap16-en.asp). The following is evidence that qualifying program dentists are not permitted to practice dentistry in the U.S.

9. Upon successful completion of the Qualifying Program and the NBDE examinations, the candidate will be eligible for licensure/registration in all provinces of Canada. NOTE: Currently, these programs are not recognized in United States licensing jurisdictions as meeting the educational qualification for licensure.(Website of the Association of Canadian Faculties of Dentistry www.acfd.ca/eligibility.html)

10. Only graduates receiving a DDS or DMD degree from a U.S. or Canadian dental school may take the NERB regional dental licensing examination accepted in the 15 Northeastern U.S. states (fax from the North East Regional Board of Dental Examiners, INC.)

11. Some members of the CDA (Canadian Dental Association) consider that the completion of a degree will lead to the export of QP graduates to the US and therefore a loss of these individuals from the Canadian professional community at our expense (excerpt from an e-mail written by Dr. Kogon, Director of the U.W.O School of Dentistry A copy is available upon request). Please note: It is NOT up to U.W.O. or to the CDA to restrict where licensed QP dentists should practice. All licensed dentists in Canada should have equal opportunities and freedoms.

12. Foreign trained dentists all over North America who complete a two year program from an accredited Dental school are granted a DDS or DMD degree except for only three universities in North America, all three of which are Canadian: The University of Western Ontario, The University of Toronto, and Dalhousie University.

13. Three accredited dental schools in Canada provide a two year DMD or DDS program to foreign-trained dentists: The University of British Columbia, the University of Manitoba and Alberta University. Foreign trained dentists who graduate with a certificate from the qualifying program of U.W.O. are no less competent than foreign-trained dentists who graduate with a DDS or DMD degree from UBC, UM or AU.


?@?@Not only are QP students disadvantaged in future prospects because of a lesser title, they are also disadvantaged in their own universities when it comes to equal footing with DDS program students.

1. One form of differentiation between the two programs on campus is manifested in the UWODSS, which is the student body representing UWO dental students. QP students are not allowed to join or become members the UWODSS despite the fact that their counterparts in the regular DDS program have this privilege. This lack in QP students' rights to become members in the UWODSS, is a hint of a gap between the QP students and the DDS students, one, which may be carried through and exacerbated once both parties have entered the work field.

2. Another form of differentiation can be seen in the graduation ceremonies. Both categories of students graduate separately. See table below:

?@?@Graduation Ceremony of DDS Students Graduation Ceremony of QP Students several awards are given such as -best _____________ -best _____________
?@?@Two awards only are given to students competing only with other QP students (12 students in total). Representatives from the ODA (Ontario Dental Association) are present and provide each student with a membership certificate. Representative for the 2003 ceremony were absent due to personal reasons, and QP students were not given their membership certificates.






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well said
this is real eye opener
all of us foreign dental graduates in canada should stand up and protest against this discriminatory policy practised by the canadian dental association
this is a way of limiting the opportunities for a foreign dental graduate in canada and this goes against the charter of freedom and rights which canada is so proud of
this should be given prominent media coverage and let the canadian people know what is going on
so all of you canadians who are foreign dental graduates ,please stand up and protest against this discriminatory policies practised by these three universities
 
We foreign dentists in Canada have a never ending list of plights.
First,due to very very limited number of seats every dentist on an average spends 2-3 years to get into QP.

Some are so unlucky that even after3-4 yrs. of wait ,they couldnot get.New immigrant can't get admission in US schools as they donot get anyone cosigner for their loans.

And if someone gets into QP-programme then again discrimination.
How should we fight?Their is no appeal system for this discrimination.
God knows whether our decision of coming to Canada was right or wrong?
 
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keepsmiling said:
We foreign dentists in Canada have a never ending list of plights.
First,due to very very limited number of seats every dentist on an average spends 2-3 years to get into QP.

Some are so unlucky that even after3-4 yrs. of wait ,they couldnot get.New immigrant can't get admission in US schools as they donot get anyone cosigner for their loans.

And if someone gets into QP-programme then again discrimination.
How should we fight?Their is no appeal system for this discrimination.
God knows whether our decision of coming to Canada was right or wrong?
Click to expand...

one of the way one can stood up against this injustice & the unfair treatment to foreighn trained dentists in canada , is to join group of 100 dentists ,who gonna start legal battle with authoroties in canada , to stop discrimination & give them their legal right to educate themselves.
I am convinced after september 2004 result that there is a manipulation going on even at EE level, so that foreign trained dentists could be stoped .Lots of my friends did excellent exam expecting 90% marks all they get is 70%.
here is a email address of founder of this group [email protected].
[email protected]

No matter how many Eligibility exam you may write ,how much you score, I dont think this is enough to get in dental school in Canada.
Our case is strong,there are lots of legal points that ACFD or QP directors have against them,so its time to stand for the cause.
 
it is strange - Canada has so big shortage of any kind of medical practisioners, and they still don`t want to do anything about making if not easy, at least possible ,for a foregin trained not only dentists but also physicians to be able to get a license to work there. can you imagine a city with around 100 000 people and they don`t have a anestesiologist, so they have to send a ambulance car with a patient in need to the next biger city (this is a real case) which happend to has anestesiologist? i mean,c'mon, in Kaplan center in Toronto you will find at least 3 anestesiologysts trying to get a Canadian license and the end they all comming into the US and doing residency in US Hospitals.... as i can see it, the same starting to happend with dentists.
 
emsi said:
it is strange - Canada has so big shortage of any kind of medical practisioners, and they still don`t want to do anything about making if not easy, at least possible ,for a foregin trained not only dentists but also physicians to be able to get a license to work there. can you imagine a city with around 100 000 people and they don`t have a anestesiologist, so they have to send a ambulance car with a patient in need to the next biger city (this is a real case) which happend to has anestesiologist? i mean,c'mon, in Kaplan center in Toronto you will find at least 3 anestesiologysts trying to get a Canadian license and the end they all comming into the US and doing residency in US Hospitals.... as i can see it, the same starting to happend with dentists.
Click to expand...

``IT IS THE OLD BOYS CLUB``Canada is not libral like America.System is set in a way that only graduates from Canadian high schools have a better chance,for any body else tones of exams & regulation.Some private organizations controll the licensure procedure.I talked to one Canadian MP ,she said they are independet bodies we can not interfare in their affairs. But this does not mean they are ABOVE THE LAW & can not be challenged.
OLD BOYS want to controll profession without a wish for anybody else to succeed.OLD BOYS has a set back when they ordered not to take clinical exams anymore for the graduates who passed first two exams.But court of law turned their action unlawful ,court ordered them to held exams as usual.
 
I think dents in dente is right.
Evryone of us who is international dentist in Canada should come forward & join the group suggested by him.
At least we should support him in his initiative. :thumbup:
He is fighting for the general cause.Bravo....keep it up!
 
You shouldn't need a US/Canadian DDS DMD. The DDS is not a higher level degree than the BDS. They are equal degrees representing the same level of dental education. Just like the bachelor of medicine MBBS = MD. Medical graduates from around the world who recieve a MBBS are calling themselves MD after they complete their board and licensure exams. It should be the same for dentistry. BDS = DDS just like MBBS = MD, no different.

Just like foreign medical students who have to first finish residency training first, I don't disagree with making foreign dental graduates first complete a 1-2 year aegd or gpr before being allowed to practice general dentistry... but do disagree with these IDP programs that are basically just out there to make money.. charging people 40k - 75k bucks a year for 2-3 more years so they can have a US dental degree. Actually wouldn't the training would be better and would make foreign dental grads better technicial dental surgeons and better prepared to practice in the US if they were to have to complete a 1-2 year AEGD or GPR as opposed to "re-doing" the last two years of dental school?
 
dents in dente said:
A number of QP graduates can attest to the fact that they have always been placed on the defensive when they had to explain to potential employers looking for associates, where the Qualifying Program stands with regards to the DDS or the DMD programs. Some have not yet found associate work, and some have been refused an interview. With hundreds of students graduating all over Canada carrying DDS and DMD degrees, it is not surprising that QP dentists have a lesser advantage in the competition for jobs.
Click to expand...


Join together and create your own practice then.. I don't think any of your patients are going to ask you what BDS means on your wall and walk out on you.



dents in dente said:
9. Upon successful completion of the Qualifying Program and the NBDE examinations, the candidate will be eligible for licensure/registration in all provinces of Canada. NOTE: Currently, these programs are not recognized in United States licensing jurisdictions as meeting the educational qualification for licensure.(Website of the Association of Canadian Faculties of Dentistry www.acfd.ca/eligibility.html)
12. Foreign trained dentists all over North America who complete a two year program from an accredited Dental school are granted a DDS or DMD degree except for only three universities in North America, all three of which are Canadian: The University of Western Ontario, The University of Toronto, and Dalhousie University.
Click to expand...

Actually, There are a number of qualifying programs that do either a cert or a degree. I know U of Flordia has either a 2-year cert option or a 4-year DDS option available to foreign grads. I think the way it is now.. if you have the US ADA DDS/DMD then no one can deny you. If you have a cert. then it is up to the individual state to either approve or deny. ( I think most states would approve a canadian cert though).




I agree that the current laws regarding foreign dental students is unfair and as you very nicely pointed out are actually probably unlawful. :thumbup: Thanks for the info. Great post!
 
"12. Foreign trained dentists all over North America who complete a two year program from an accredited Dental school are granted a DDS or DMD degree except for only three universities in North America, all three of which are Canadian: The University of Western Ontario, The University of Toronto, and Dalhousie University"

Not really true. University of Illinois in Chicago grants only a certificate to practice in the state of Illinois after completing two year program. University of Florida does the same . But if the certificate gives you a right to get a licence, then what's the difference -- DDS or certificate? The outcome is the same -- you have a right to practice in the country that gave it to you.
 
SJ35 said:
"12. Foreign trained dentists all over North America who complete a two year program from an accredited Dental school are granted a DDS or DMD degree except for only three universities in North America, all three of which are Canadian: The University of Western Ontario, The University of Toronto, and Dalhousie University"

Not really true. University of Illinois in Chicago grants only a certificate to practice in the state of Illinois after completing two year program. University of Florida does the same . But if the certificate gives you a right to get a licence, then what's the difference -- DDS or certificate? The outcome is the same -- you have a right to practice in the country that gave it to you.
Click to expand...

You are right but let me tell you what makes a difference.There are some graduate programs in US ,that requires candidate to have passed from ADA acredited program,in other words if ADA does not approve QP coz it is not granted by university syndicate but group of faculty members in the department of dentistry.So chance of further education or speciality is eliminated.
Further more,if one is planning to go another country to join teaching or hospital position, again all they demand American/Canadian DDS or post grad degree, not the certificate of practice,I can give example of saudia arabia.
That is why degree is important coz it has long terms benefits.
 
dents in dente said:
You are right but let me tell you what makes a difference.There are some graduate programs in US ,that requires candidate to have passed from ADA acredited program,in other words if ADA does not approve QP coz it is not granted by university syndicate but group of faculty members in the department of dentistry.So chance of further education or speciality is eliminated.
Further more,if one is planning to go another country to join teaching or hospital position, again all they demand American/Canadian DDS or post grad degree, not the certificate of practice,I can give example of saudia arabia.
That is why degree is important coz it has long terms benefits.
Click to expand...

I agree. Everything depends on what your future goals are. If you want just practice in the US or Canada, than certificate is enough, but if your goals are specialty or teaching, than, of course, you need DDS. I just think that originaly those programs for foreign-trained dentists were designed to help them get a license to practice in the US or Canada, so you can't really blame them if they do not care about your further education or ambitions to teach. These are just my thoughts on this subject.
 
you can't work with certificate from University of Toronto for example in the
US.. that's make the difference b/n DDS and certificate for me. and if i'm willing to spend so much money and another 2 years of my life in studying,i would like to have the opportunity to practice wherever i want. not to be stuck into one provinces or one state. and why i should not receive proper degree from this place which i choose to study in? i will pass the same exams and i will be teach by the same teachers... then ,am i less capable of doing the same procedures as other dentist graduated from the same school? overall i will end up not with 4 years dental education as them ,but with 8 years. so spending twice more time in studying Dentistry, spending so much money, and they will give me a certificate ?!?!?! and you are saying this is fair....
 
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emsi said:
you can't work with certificate from University of Toronto for example in the
US.. that's make the difference b/n DDS and certificate for me. and if i'm willing to spend so much money and another 2 years of my life in studying,i would like to have the opportunity to practice wherever i want. not to be stuck into one provinces or one state. and why i should not receive proper degree from this place which i choose to study in? i will pass the same exams and i will be teach by the same teachers... then ,am i less capable of doing the same procedures as other dentist graduated from the same school? overall i will end up not with 4 years dental education as them ,but with 8 years. so spending twice more time in studying Dentistry, spending so much money, and they will give me a certificate ?!?!?! and you are saying this is fair....
Click to expand...

I'm not saying this is fair. But you can not dictate ADA or CDA what degree they should give you. As for spending time and money for aditional studies, this is your choice and if you want to practice dentistry here you have to do this. And it is not about you being less capable to do anything. Just think, you already have your dental degree from your country. Your patients will see your work and, beleive me, they don't care about your degree. And about practicing in different states, after all you just need one place to establish your practice.
 
SJ35 said:
Your patients will see your work and, beleive me, they don't care about your degree. And about practicing in different states, after all you just need one place to establish your practice.
Click to expand...
i agree that most important thing which will be judge one day is my work, not my diploma or my accent. but i do not agree to be given certificate. what if one day i decide to change the state? do i have to go again in 2 years program? i would like to have my freedom of choise. and if you know how difficult is to get into Canadian programs (much more difficult than in the US) you will understand why this people need freedom of choice, and fair attitude. if the Canadian dental bodies don't recognize them as a capable dentists , why they arrange all that programs and charge all that money? they just can say - you are not allowed to work here unless you graduate form dental school here - 4 year program...... with this certificate i believe that i would feel myself as a half dentist..
How can you explain this what dents in dente wrote above :
dents in dente said:
Despite QP students' competence and license to practice, despite the superior quality of their training from UWO, QP students end up having less of an edge when it comes to competing for jobs in Canada. A number of QP graduates can attest to the fact that they have always been placed on the defensive when they had to explain to potential employers looking for associates, where the Qualifying Program stands with regards to the DDS or the DMD programs. Some have not yet found associate work, and some have been refused an interview. With hundreds of students graduating all over Canada carrying DDS and DMD degrees, it is not surprising that QP dentists have a lesser advantage in the competition for jobs.
Click to expand...
they just are not given the same chances....
 
emsi said:
i agree that most important thing which will be judge one day is my work, not my diploma or my accent. but i do not agree to be given certificate. what if one day i decide to change the state? do i have to go again in 2 years program? i would like to have my freedom of choise. and if you know how difficult is to get into Canadian programs (much more difficult than in the US) you will understand why this people need freedom of choice, and fair attitude. if the Canadian dental bodies don't recognize them as a capable dentists , why they arrange all that programs and charge all that money? they just can say - you are not allowed to work here unless you graduate form dental school here - 4 year program...... with this certificate i believe that i would feel myself as a half dentist..
How can you explain this what dents in dente wrote above :
they just are not given the same chances....
Click to expand...

I have to admit that I don't really know how hard is to get a job after you graduate from the program in Canada. Don't they recognize them? If there is further discrimination because you don't have a degree and can't have a job even if you have a license, then, yes, this is a big problem. I heard that Canadian dentists are very unwilling to accept newcomers into their circle. I understand your frustration about all this. In the US we at least have more choices. And here is already frustrating because of all the competition.
 
SJ35 said:
I have to admit that I don't really know how hard is to get a job after you graduate from the program in Canada. Don't they recognize them? If there is further discrimination because you don't have a degree and can't have a job even if you have a license, then, yes, this is a big problem. I heard that Canadian dentists are very unwilling to accept newcomers into their circle. I understand your frustration about all this. In the US we at least have more choices. And here is already frustrating because of all the competition.
Click to expand...
i'm glad you saw the problem. i saw it too a year ago, that is one of reasons i'm here - in the US. in this case here is way better than Canada.
 
All foreign trained dentist should protest for this double standard behaviour.
On one hand Canadian Govt. want F.T. Dentists to serv the society as they are short of dentists, and on other hand they are not ready to give F.T.Dentist the same standard ?!!
Manipulation, descrimination is always unacceptable.
But still Ithink there is always a solution on every problem.
I dont think that 'run away to US' is the solution.
No matter if Canada is a land of OLD BOYS.
Law is always above anyone and everyone.It should be same fo anyone and everyone.
I think all F.T.dentists collectively shld fight a legal case against this.
In one country, 3 univ. follow some rule and others follow different / is unbelievable and beyond logic.I don't think its justifiable too.
F.T.Dentists have a strong case.
Please do not hesitate and waste time to start a legal fight.
I strongly support all of them.
all the best. :thumbup:
 
dramol said:
All foreign trained dentist should protest for this double standard behaviour.
On one hand Canadian Govt. want F.T. Dentists to serv the society as they are short of dentists, and on other hand they are not ready to give F.T.Dentist the same standard ?!!
Manipulation, descrimination is always unacceptable.
But still Ithink there is always a solution on every problem.
I dont think that 'run away to US' is the solution.
No matter if Canada is a land of OLD BOYS.
Law is always above anyone and everyone.It should be same fo anyone and everyone.
I think all F.T.dentists collectively shld fight a legal case against this.
In one country, 3 univ. follow some rule and others follow different / is unbelievable and beyond logic.I don't think its justifiable too.
F.T.Dentists have a strong case.
Please do not hesitate and waste time to start a legal fight.
I strongly support all of them.
all the best. :thumbup:
Click to expand...


Hi dramol !

Misery did not stop here, OLD BOYS( ACFD, CDA) are using double edge sword to cut throut of FT Dentists in canada,I mean those who are trying to get in the universities as well as those who are already gotton in.

For those who are trying :this i heard from university of westeren ontario professor whose name could be Dr L,M,O :smuggrin: he said after the operative exam,

WE DONT HAVE SOFT HEART FOR THE IMMIGRANT DENTISTS,QP IS NOT FROM UNIVERSITY SYNDICATE ,WE NEED THE MONEY TO MEET EXPENSIS OF THE FACULTY OF DENTISTRY,SO WE STARTED QP SO THAT WE CAN MEET FACULTY`S EXPENSIS,WE DONT WANA INCREASE THE NUMBER OF SEATS FOR QP ,COZ WE HAVE ALREADY GOT WHAT WE NEEDED.

I admire that assistant prof who ,at least he had the courage to speak the truth.There are more than 350 dentists striving for the licence in canada,this issue touches the life of more than 350 dentists & their families,so one can imagin the gravity of the issue,that is why i surfaced that issue on SDN community.
Unlike USA, each canadian university usues its own method to evaluate GPA,there is no central agency like ECE or WES , they dont accept ECE or WES evaluation.Which unfair coz you might get edge in one university method but not in another`s.For example U of T gives in general 30points less than what u get in ECE, 3.70in ECE ,but its means 3.40 in Uof T.Do laws of mathematics vary?
 
Hi Dents in Dente,

I agree that this is everywhere. Even in US, FT Dentists are looked upon only for their money.
Even in India the system like ' Payment seats ' and 'Free seats' is present.
But when it comes to employment or post-graduate study everyone gets equal oportunity in India.
This matter should be taken in Public with the help of Media.
Let every News Paper publish this.
Let Govt. know about this biased treatment.
If this is not enough , then give this a big exposure on International level.
Atleast people who are currently in their home country will come to know the reality and atleast those dentists will be prevented from disappointment.

If Luck will favour , this will bring some + ve changes in the Canadian system.
If not then atleast we will prevent our colleages from disappointment and If we can face-off this double standard behaviour of Canada, that will also not be lesser than any acheivement.Doing nothing against this biased system is as good as supporting it.

So please publish this grave situation of FT Dentists in Canada. Let everyone know about the whole senario.I am optimistic about the change.
Afterall NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE IN THIS WORLD !
ALL THE BEST.
 
Even after getting admission,u have not forgotten ur hard time & the way u care for fellow brethern who are still struggling to get admission;needs applause!!!
Usually when one gets admission or achieves something in life,attitude changes,am I right?

But those mature persons who remain stable & care for the general cause sky is the limit for their success.
We are lucky to have such SDNs!!!!
Three cheers,keep it up! :) :)
 
keepsmiling said:
Even after getting admission,u have not forgotten ur hard time & the way u care for fellow brethern who are still struggling to get admission;needs applause!!!
Usually when one gets admission or achieves something in life,attitude changes,am I right?

But those mature persons who remain stable & care for the general cause sky is the limit for their success.
We are lucky to have such SDNs!!!!
Three cheers,keep it up! :) :)
Click to expand...


thanks keepsmiling
i still remember the hard times and I can understand fully well the frustrations of my fellow foreign trained dentists in canada
and as you read from the other forum which caters to canadian dental students, their attitude is not to allow foreign dentists to get licence here
to do injustice is a crime but to tolerate injustice is even bigger crime
so you must fight for your rights
 
nimeshshingala said:
thanks keepsmiling
i still remember the hard times and I can understand fully well the frustrations of my fellow foreign trained dentists in canada
and as you read from the other forum which caters to canadian dental students, their attitude is not to allow foreign dentists to get licence here
to do injustice is a crime but to tolerate injustice is even bigger crime
so you must fight for your rights
Click to expand...

I think you're sorely wrong about what I was trying to say on the other board. Not allowing foreign dentists to practice? says who? the point is how many and whether indigent students will be disadvantaged in the process. The idea of creating 40 spots exclusively for foreign dentists while many canadian students are denied it doesn't seem justified to me. further, you have still yet to show me further statistics showing dentist shortage that necessitates the fast-tracking of so many foreign dentists.

just want to clear up I'm not opposed to giving foreign dentists chance to practice, as you repeatedly implied. however the numbers still needs to be regulated, and the interests of students educated in canada needs to be protected as well.
 
LestatZinnie said:
I think you're sorely wrong about what I was trying to say on the other board. Not allowing foreign dentists to practice? says who? the point is how many and whether indigent students will be disadvantaged in the process. The idea of creating 40 spots exclusively for foreign dentists while many canadian students are denied it doesn't seem justified to me. further, you have still yet to show me further statistics showing dentist shortage that necessitates the fast-tracking of so many foreign dentists.

just want to clear up I'm not opposed to giving foreign dentists chance to practice, as you repeatedly implied. however the numbers still needs to be regulated, and the interests of students educated in canada needs to be protected as well.
Click to expand...

HI

I think you are inquisitive about stats & shortage of dentists in canada ,so here is comparision of indiginious dental students & foreign dentists.If you look at the numbers of indiginous student going to the dental programs versus foreign dentists you must admit that they are already enjoying the bigest piece of pie.
Table 1 Number of students enrolled in Canadian dental schools (fall 2000)

University 4th year 3rd year 2nd year 1st year 1st-year qualifying program 2nd-year qualifying program
Dalhousie 35 35 32 32 8 5
Laval 48 38 50 46 - -
Montreala 81 79 83 85 - 3
McGill 29 31 30 29 - -
Toronto 79 70 70 72 20 20
Western 46 52 53 53 12 10
Manitoba 22 26 23 26 - -
Saskatchewanb 22 17 49 26 - -
Alberta 31 35 32 32 - -
British Columbia 37 44 39 40 8 6
Totals: 430 427 461 441 48 44

Source: University administration offices. Totals may not represent actual number of graduates per year.
a 2nd year was closed to allow for 1st-year pre-dental program. Pre-dental students are included in 1st-year figure.
b 2nd- and 3rd-year students graduate together in 2003. The 2nd-year figure represents the combined classes.
so Final numbers are 430-461 indiginous students verses only 48 foreign dentists.IS THIS EQUALITY, SOCIAL JUSTICE, TOLELERENCE FOR OTHER CANADIANS?IS THIS EQUAL RIGHT OF EDUCATION?
 
LestatZinnie said:
I think you're sorely wrong about what I was trying to say on the other board. Not allowing foreign dentists to practice? says who? the point is how many and whether indigent students will be disadvantaged in the process. The idea of creating 40 spots exclusively for foreign dentists while many canadian students are denied it doesn't seem justified to me. further, you have still yet to show me further statistics showing dentist shortage that necessitates the fast-tracking of so many foreign dentists.

just want to clear up I'm not opposed to giving foreign dentists chance to practice, as you repeatedly implied. however the numbers still needs to be regulated, and the interests of students educated in canada needs to be protected as well.
Click to expand...

Hi As far as shortage of dentists in canada is concerned I am posting this article .

Is There an Adequate Supply of New Dentists in Canada?
• Timothy A. Brown, ALA •
• Wayne Raborn, DDS, MS •

© J Can Dent Assoc 2001; 67:373-4


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We believe that Canadian dental schools may not be graduating enough dentists to meet future needs based on current enrolment levels (Table 1). There are 3 significant developments that may help to explain this situation.
First, the aging population of baby-boomer dentists will lead to an unprecedented number of professionals who will retire from full-time practice in the years 2005 to 2010. This trend has been studied extensively of late, and many economists are predicting a very high early retirement rate amongst high-income earners such as dentists.1 Statistics reveal that about 30% of dentists are now over 50 years of age.2 It is highly probable that a number of factors, such as inheritances, stock market windfalls and a changing attitude towards full-time work, will encourage this segment of professionals to sell or close their practices and to enter into full or semi-retirement at an earlier age than the previous generation. These retirements will create hundreds of full-time positions across Canada for dentists who have graduated recently or who will graduate in the next 5 years.

Second, female dentists account for 50% or more of dental students in most Canadian universities. This shift will lead to a dramatic increase in part-time dentists, as women have traditionally been inclined towards family and other non-dental interests. Statistics show that the average career length of female dentists is 20 years, compared with 35 years for male dentists.3 This trend will cause vacancies on a full- and part-time basis.

Third, changes to the certification requirements of the National Dental Examining Board (NDEB) will likely result in a reduction of foreign-trained dentists receiving certification by about 30 to 40 dentists each year. As of January 1, 2000, the NDEB stopped its routine testing of graduates of non-accredited programs. These graduates will now be required to complete a 2-year “qualifying” program prior to taking the same test as graduates of accredited Canadian dental schools.

These factors have already led to a drastic reduction in the number of dentists in Northern Canada. The trend will be felt in major urban centres within 3 to 5 years and will have an impact on the number of dentists seeking either to associate or to purchase a practice.

If we project these trends even further over the next 5 to 10 years, it becomes clear that there will likely be a shortage of full-time dentists across Canada. This shortage may lead to lower selling prices for established practices when combined with normal death, disability and retirement rates. Assuming the typical career of a dentist lasts 35 years, 3% of Canadian dentists will retire from dental practice each year. This equates to about 480 dentists per year based upon roughly 16,000 dentists in Canada. If we add the other above-mentioned reasons for leaving the profession, we can see that the departures will begin to outnumber the entries.

There are 2 other minor trends to consider. Professionals hold large amounts of funds in RRSPs, which enables them to retire at a younger age. Also, the ability to move from province to province, as proposed by the Agreement on Internal Trade, will allow dentists to leave some communities for more attractive retirement areas. An exodus from some regions, especially from remote and rural areas, would influence the availability of practice opportunities and increase demand for dentists. These regions are already having difficulty finding replacement dentists.

As these trends mature between 2005 and 2010, major urban centres will also witness a shortage of dentists. This decrease will translate into a shortage of purchasers for the many dental practices on the market and a reduction in practice values. Furthermore, dentists seeking associate positions will be able to demand higher earnings (45%-50%) as they will be faced with numerous opportunities.

Another significant factor to consider is the changing mix of services that will be required by patients. What about a possible surge in patient needs? Some dental experts are predicting a huge increase in demand for restorative dentistry by our aging population. In today’s market, cosmetic and esthetic procedures are the highest growth areas in practice.4 In 10 to 15 years, geriatric dentistry will be the largest growth area. We have just enough dentists to fill present needs in many areas of Canada. What will happen if patient needs increase and dental manpower levels decrease? Who will treat the overflow of patients? Will hygienists operate their own practices to fill the void? Will denturists be permitted to exercise even more autonomy and be given an increased scope of practice? Will the NDEB be forced to relax its new regulations to admit practitioners who don’t meet today’s high standards?

Who is projecting the dental manpower ratios into the next decade? Who has the authority or the funding to increase enrolment? The free market will determine whether graduates will practise in areas where they will be most needed or in more lucrative areas.

Is there an adequate supply of new dental graduates in Canada? Given that increases in dental school enrolment are very resource-dependent, and that it takes several years to produce results, there may very well be a shortage of dentists in the near future. It is the opinion of the authors that Canadian dental schools should consider increasing first-year enrolment immediately to ensure there will be an adequate supply of dentists.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. Brown is the president and CEO of ROI Corporation.

Dr. Raborn is the associate dean and chair in the department of dentistry, faculty of medicine and dentistry, University of Alberta.

The views expressed are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or official policies of the Canadian Dental Association.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

References

1. Foot DK. Boom Bust and Echo. Toronto : Macfarlane Walter & Ross, 1996; 2:39.

2. Royal College of Dental Surgeons of Ontario 2000 Listings. March 31, 2000.

3. Brown TA. Un-audited study of average ages of selling dentists, 1995-1999. Age of Vendors 2000; p. 1-3.

4. Ontario Dental Association. The Cost of Practice Monitor. 1999; p. 25-6.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------this is enough to point out that induction of foreign trained dentists is the the most needed action to counter the scarcity of dentists in Canada.There is no danger to the right of indiginous dentists,fittist will survive,but if foreign dentists are not given oppertunity ,who will decide about the fittist.
 
dents in dente:

thank you for providing the article. i have actually read it 2 years ago, but i take it with a VERY large grain of salt because Mr. Timothy Brown's company, ROI corporation, is involved in dental practice appraisal, sales, etc, so i can see a conflict of interest here. you can also read another article here http://www.roicorp.com/art40.htm. notice how in the last few paragraph he's basically advertising.

i have done some research myself on the issue since I entered dental school. save this article, which is biased imo, and the recently published article written by a single researcher shown on the website of schoolofdentistry, there is NO other publication supporting claims that there's a shortage of dentists, and thus the necessity of training more dentists.

In fact, read the workforce reports of government of canada, and you can see that the growth of dentistry is expected to be SLOWER than all other industries. i give the one from BC as an example:

http://www.workfutures.bc.ca/profiles/profile.cfm?noc=3113&lang=en&site=graphic

now read the last few paragraphs, and you'll see SURPLUS of dentists in metro areas and INCREASED COMPETITION. now i'd like to believe, as I think most people will, a third party (i.e. government) study more than those written by one or two individuals.

if you have ANY study written by government, CDA, or a group of researchers indicating shortage, bring'em on. I'm not convinced.
 
Dear LestatZinnie --

I really think you are feeling very INSECURED due to the compitition.

As you said you want some data from Govt. bodies to get convinced,
Following are few of the Research data available easily on
Govt. sites ( no. as 1),2),3) ) .
Please go through it....


1) By www.cicic.gc.ca ----


Employment Prospects
Employment Potential: Good
Employment Trends:
There has been a tendency for Dentists to gravitate to urban areas, frequently leaving rural communities with a shortage of dentists.

Cosmetic dentistry is a growing trend, especially among aging baby boomers seeking a more youthful look.

New and changing technology have made dentistry more precise and pain-free.

"More Ontario dentists are researching diseases and disabilities of aging and their impact on dental health and the provision of dental care. Increasing years can bring on gum and bone recession, dry mouth, tooth wear, periodontal disease and many oral side effects of drug treatment." Source: the Ontario Dental Association

Date published: 2004-11-19


2) http://www.jobfutures.ca/noc/3113.shtml

Dentists (NOC 3113)

Current Conditions---
Your work prospects are rated GOOD because:


Demand has increased because our growing and aging population requires more dental care; technology advances are creating new treatments for previously untreatable dental problems; and more Canadians have dental insurance.


Hourly wages are 75% higher than the average ($16.91), and the rate of wage growth has been twice the average.


The unemployment rate (0.4%) is significantly below average (5%).


More job openings exist than graduates to fill them.



Work Prospects----
Outlook To 2007--

Your work prospects continue to be rated GOOD because:

Although the employment growth rate will likely be slightly below average, job openings should increase because of ongoing trends--a growing and aging population that requires more dental care, technology advances that create new treatments for previously untreatable dental problems, and more Canadians with dental insurance.


Demand will likely also increase because of consumer desire for restorative dental work, dental cosmetics, and dental maintenance.


The retirement rate will likely be average; however, employee turnover and burnout because of heavy workloads should contribute to some job openings.


The number of recent graduates will likely be less than the number of job openings, despite increased dental school enrolments.

____________________________________


Dentists (NOC 3113)
What you can expect to make-----

Hourly wages ($30.38) are above the national average ($16.91).


These earnings are above average for occupations in the health sector and for all professional occupations.


These wages grew at a significantly above-average rate from 1999 to 2001.

The unemployment rate (0%) is below the 2001 average (5%).

This rate is below the average for professional occupations.


% of Part-time work is about the same as average----


There were 15,100 workers employed in these occupations in 2001, a decrease of 2% since 1994.


The percentage of part-time workers is 12% compared to the 2001 average of 18% and has stayed about the same since 1994.


Above average--

The percentage of self-employed workers (90%) is above the 2001 average (16%) and has stayed about the same since 1994.


The relatively low percentage of younger workers suggests few entry-level job openings, and could point to a greater need for workers with experience or a number of years of training.


The relatively high percentage of older workers and an expected older-than-average worker (41) will likely be offset by a later retirement age (68) resulting in an average retirement rate to 2007.


Average---
The percentage of women is 33% compared to the 2001 average of 46% and has risen significantly since 1994.

This page last modified on: 2003-04-24 Important Notices

________________________________________




3) http://www1.on.hrdc-drhc.gc.ca/ojf/ojf.jsp?lang=e&section=Profile&noc=3113


------------------------------------------------------------------


And if you are still not convinced that Canada has enough no. of dentists and do not want few more then,

WE CARE A DAM.. :thumbdown:

As you told atalavistababy regarding LOBBYING against the new dental school
for so called "BETTERMENT OF THE CANADIAN SOCIETY"...

I think you first do LOBBYING for increasing more no. of universities for opening dental faculty, More no. of seats for post graduate studies...
I think these would be better issues for LOBBYING !!!

Reading all your posts regarding this issue ( on this forum and on another forum called 'ezboard' ) you seem to be one of the Canadian Version of "DOT BUSTERS MOVEMENT (USA)".

I think your approach is not at all a good approach for any Forum group.
Forun should be used to Help each other and not to creat problems fo each other.

Lets leave Regulating No. of dentists in Canada to the Govt. authorities.
So lets stop threatening each other about LOBBYING.
 
LestatZinnie said:
dents in dente:

thank you for providing the article. i have actually read it 2 years ago, but i take it with a VERY large grain of salt because Mr. Timothy Brown's company, ROI corporation, is involved in dental practice appraisal, sales, etc, so i can see a conflict of interest here. you can also read another article here http://www.roicorp.com/art40.htm. notice how in the last few paragraph he's basically advertising.

i have done some research myself on the issue since I entered dental school. save this article, which is biased imo, and the recently published article written by a single researcher shown on the website of schoolofdentistry, there is NO other publication supporting claims that there's a shortage of dentists, and thus the necessity of training more dentists.

In fact, read the workforce reports of government of canada, and you can see that the growth of dentistry is expected to be SLOWER than all other industries. i give the one from BC as an example:

http://www.workfutures.bc.ca/profiles/profile.cfm?noc=3113&lang=en&site=graphic

now read the last few paragraphs, and you'll see SURPLUS of dentists in metro areas and INCREASED COMPETITION. now i'd like to believe, as I think most people will, a third party (i.e. government) study more than those written by one or two individuals.

if you have ANY study written by government, CDA, or a group of researchers indicating shortage, bring'em on. I'm not convinced.
Click to expand...

HI There:

You are basically worried why 40 positions are created for foreign trained dentists? Right? I have given you some facts & figure in reply.You have not replied my point of 430-461 versus 48,or may be you have no reply for that.

For you dean of Alberta University is not a responsible, senseble person, because he is uttering the truth.Regarding Timothy Brown`s article ,for your information it was published in CDA journal ,they have a policy ,not to publish anything advertising.

Regarding BC study ,you need to read it again, dont make inferences that suites your point of view.It says there is increase demand of dentists 1.2% in BC.It only says there is concentration of dentists in metropolitan areas,no big a deal, this is universal occurance ,go Japan , USA,Pakistan ,India same thing.
Forthermore BC study can not be true for whole canada,what about other provinces ?

Myself & dramol have given enough data ,do you think to convince you? forget it,I have no intention to convice you ,because if someone is adamant then let one be.When I started this thread ,aim was to present facts to SDN forum & all agreed to what I said except you,let me tell you opinion of the majority of people is never wrong.Thanks for comming to this SDN forum, your views, about foreign dentist in canada, are ample prove of injustice to foreign trained dentists in canada.
 
LestatZinnie said:
I think you're sorely wrong about what I was trying to say on the other board. Not allowing foreign dentists to practice? says who? the point is how many and whether indigent students will be disadvantaged in the process. The idea of creating 40 spots exclusively for foreign dentists while many canadian students are denied it doesn't seem justified to me. further, you have still yet to show me further statistics showing dentist shortage that necessitates the fast-tracking of so many foreign dentists.

just want to clear up I'm not opposed to giving foreign dentists chance to practice, as you repeatedly implied. however the numbers still needs to be regulated, and the interests of students educated in canada needs to be protected as well.
Click to expand...

hi lestatzinnie
thanks for coming to this forum
I was the only one fighting in the other forum and here I have some supporters who understand my point of view
well Dramol and dents in dente have given you the figures you wanted
you are saying you are not against foreign trained dentists
well what can I imply when I quote your words from the other forum
these are your sentences
quote
"think people on this board should spread the word about this school to their own dental schools and any dentists they know, and see what they know about it and what they think about it. personally I'd lobby the CDA and dental schools to prevent this school from happening.
unquote
and also this statement by yours gives me a feeling you are very insecured about yourself and lack confidence
quote
"in my opinion, everybody should have access to dental care, but at the same time we as future practioners have to protect our market as well."
unquote
so you want to protect your market and don't give a damn about the foreign trained dentist or even the canadian people who will benifit from increased competition
anyways , I thank you for coming to this forum and make us understand how the local canadian graduates think about us and it will make us even more resolute and will unite all the foreign trained dentists to fight for their rights
 
Man u have been behaving in a very selfish manner,like u people are on something like WAR with fellow professionals.

As Nimeshshingala has rightly said even u or ur parents must be immigrant to Canada ,then their is no point of "protecting YOUR MARKET".Its evryone's place whosoever comes & reaches here all the opportunities being equal to all Immigrants.

As Darwin has said rightly:If we [forgien dentists] are competent WE ARE GOING TO SURVIVE ,MARK IT OK.Its struggle for existence here & we people are intelligent enough to come out of it sooner or later,its a matter of time.

Hey man ,let evryone practice & if someone is less competent or doesnot know the subject thoroughly he himself is going to suffer.People are going to sue him.
Why all those policymakers here in dental regulatory bodies are so scared like you & want to limit the accessibility of this profession to only few limited people.Is it some form of MAFIA controlling?

Even Govt. of Canada wants to increase the opportunities to forgien dentists ,but these our old Dentists & some people like you donot want it to happen.Never mind we will make it & we wll do good dentistry in Canada :thumbup: .We Love Our profession & come what may we will not let this discrimination happen. :)
 
Don't be so greedy. There are already seats available for foreign-trained dentists. If you can't get it, don't blame the number of seats available. Are you sure you're really competitive enough? And, don't ever think it's less difficult for local people to get into dental schools.

What's wrong with protecting job market? Everyone does it. When you said you want to increase seats/schools, you're engaging in protecting your future job or survival.
 
Dear SOSO,

I think we FT dentists will always have an edge over all local dentists as we have Experience in dental field and one additional degree.
If 460-470 dentists are so scared of just 48 dentists ,
I think you pepole should first check out your own callibre.
B'coz people who are not secured and are scared ,
they only think of protecting their field.
If you have GUTS ,then come out openly and fight .
Don't just question anyone's capability , when you yourself are not sure of youe own callibre !
Before entering dental school 'you have only a science degree and some exp. in other than dental field,
and you people think this make you superior than us ??!!!
All of us have already prooved ourselves in our home country
and we have an ambition to reproove ourselves here in Canada.

You people should feel ashamed of yourself to get scared with just 40 new dentists.
I think Dental schools should also make you people ready to compete with your fellow couleages and not just prepare you to deliver dental treatment.

Lack of confidence will never suceed you anywhere, forget about Dentistry.
 
You have to look at how many local vs foreign-trained applicants there are. How many of those immigrants each year are actually dentists?

Are you implying that you're not scared at all, if you fail to protect your future job after trying in vain to advocate the new school development?

I didn't say local students are superior over foreign people. At least that came from your own mouth.
 
soso said:
Don't be so greedy. There are already seats available for foreign-trained dentists. If you can't get it, don't blame the number of seats available. Are you sure you're really competitive enough? And, don't ever think it's less difficult for local people to get into dental schools.

What's wrong with protecting job market? Everyone does it. When you said you want to increase seats/schools, you're engaging in protecting your future job or survival.
Click to expand...

Hi Soso

well the number I mentioned 430-461 vs 48 is the estimate in canada only, most of the canadian high school education makes you eligible for US dental schools too,in other words you guys have far greater accessability to dental schools than immigrants.
Now you have mentioned that`` Its difficult for us to get into the dental school``That gives me prety good idea how competent educationally are you.

You guys do have degree before getting to dental school, most of the foreign dentists have either diplomas or post grad degrees but the EXPERIENCE is the one that no dental school pour in you.Do you have that?

So you better watch out & dont be scared of compitition.
 
So, you mean foreign-trained dentists can't apply for US schools??? You can immigrate to US instead. Am I wrong? You have the same option.

Now you have mentioned that`` Its difficult for us to get into the dental school``That gives me prety good idea how competent educationally are you.
Click to expand...
It's difficult for local people to get into dentistry, too. So, what are you saying exactly? Compare the GPA in Canada vs USA, and you'll see it! I'm sure foreign-trained dentists can get into US schools more easily because of the lower cut-off point, which "may" translate into less competitiveness (?).

Of course, experience counts, but how do you assess one's experience? It's very subjective. That's why foreign-trained dentists have to repeat their last 2 years in Canadian dental schools to make sure everyone meet the standards.

So, foreign-trained dentists aren't scared??? I'm curious...
 
soso said:
So, you mean foreign-trained dentists can't apply for US schools??? You can immigrate to US instead. Am I wrong? You have the same option.

It's difficult for local people to get into dentistry, too. So, what are you saying exactly? Compare the GPA in Canada vs USA, and you'll see it! I'm sure foreign-trained dentists can get into US schools more easily because of the lower cut-off point, which "may" translate into less competitiveness (?).

Of course, experience counts, but how do you assess one's experience? It's very subjective. That's why foreign-trained dentists have to repeat their last 2 years in Canadian dental schools to make sure everyone meet the standards.

So, foreign-trained dentists aren't scared??? I'm curious...
Click to expand...

hi soso
so you have come to support your buddies like lestatzinnie and the company
basically the fight on the other forum which has now poured out into this forum is about the new college which is offering 40 seats to foreign trained dentist
so lestatzinnie and company of which you look like the latest addition felt threatened
inspite of giving you figures (in great detail by dramol and dents in dente) you are still not convinced
460 positions for local dentists v/s 48 for foreign trained
this new college will give foreign trained 40 more seats so will bring the ratio to 460 v/s 88 seats
now if you consider the number of people taking acfd every year
there are around one thousand foreign trained dentists who have been officially given immigration by canada who are waiting in the docks to get their licence
but you and your other buddy got so much threatened with the competetion that you started talking about lobbying the CDA and other dental colleges in preventing this college from happening
that is what i said in the other forum , that people like you who are so selfish and self driven and only care about your market and don't give a damn about foreign trained dentist who are suffering so much here and the canadian people who will eventually benefit from the competition
you talk like you don't want to share your market with anybody
but the fact is eventually you will loose
wake up buddy to the reality
gather some courage and learn to compete with us in a fair manner instead of trying other ways to curb our progress
 
Hi Soso!
So, you mean foreign-trained dentists can't apply for US schools??? You can immigrate to US instead. Am I wrong? You have the same option.
Click to expand...

Of course you could, but once you're a CANADIAN CITIZEN, you've got the right to LIVE in Canada. You know, we've got our families with their own carrers, and it's tough to make everybody moving thounsands of miles far away(that's what nimesh, emsi...did :thumbup: ).
And all above this, getting (canadian) loans to study in US universities isn't that easy...

It's difficult for local people to get into dentistry, too.
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Yes it is...But for foreign-trained dentists, it's mostly "impossible" in a state like Quebec : 2-3spots in université de montréal.

Don't be so greedy. There are already seats available for foreign-trained dentists. If you can't get it, don't blame the number of seats available. Are you sure you're really competitive enough? And, don't ever think it's less difficult for local people to get into dental schools.
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Only 20 foreign trained dentists with a DDS-DMD degree graduate . The other 24 dentist have only a Certificate (university qualifying program) . Is that fair??????
Furthermore, just take the time to check the stats(nbde I, II, EE, GPA...) of the buddies on this forum :idea:

So, foreign-trained dentists aren't scared??? I'm curious...
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This is may be what you and your buddies are trying to do....But fortunately I met Great persons in this forum who're guiding us in the right way. So watch out....
Difficulties are lessing the nubmer of FT dentists, but the few ones who'll practice in Canada will be very very very competetive....
 
Are you implying it's easier for local people to get loans to study in US? It's difficult too.
Canadian students are treated as foreign students in US, so what's your point?

For most of us who can speak only English because of limited enrollment for French Immersion Program, you think we local people can apply for schools in Quebec???

So only ~1000 foreign-trained dentists after so many years of open immigration??? Each year, there are thousands of local people applying for dentistry. EACH YEAR!

Yes, we're scared and worried, unlike some people who never confess they're worried and scared....

I always wonder why some foreign-trained dentists can get the seats, while those who can't think they're "equally or more" competitive than the former. They don't look at or blame themselves first, but they blame others instead. Is this logical?

And think! More isn't always good. Imagine...what if everyone could become CEO, Prime Minister, President....etc. It will be chaos.
 
soso said:
this is what you said

Yes, we're scared and worried, unlike some people who never confess they're worried and scared....



Yes we are scared too that we are living in the same society as people like you, from your thoughts you look like one of those neo-nazis(skin heads) who have least tolerence towards immigrants.
but we are not scared of the competition , if you have guts than compete with us as dentists , by keeping our opportunities limited , you are not giving us fair play
I am afraid but you are one of those pampered and spoiled kid who has got everything here in canada but does not want to share it with others

this is your statement
And think! More isn't always good. Imagine...what if everyone could become CEO, Prime Minister, President....etc. It will be chaos.

what a dumb way to compare,this shows your intelligence or rather lack of it,
imagine if we had only one airline or one bank or one college or one movie theater or one restaurant and allow them to keep the monopoly , what would have happened
so you want to limit the dentists here in canada and ,who are going to be loosers???? , yes it is the canadian people who loose because of lack of competition
from your thoughts , I wonder if you already got into dental school or are trying to get into dental school
because if you are a dental student , than I pity the canadian education system which lets fools like you get into dentistry
and I also pity the patients who will have the misfortune of getting treated by you
Click to expand...
 
If you're not scared of competition, why would you feel so frustrated every time when someone is against the new school development?

If you're not scared of competition, then compete with courage with the rest of foreign-trained dentists. Why can they make their ways to dental schools, yet you cannot?

I didn't say there should be only ONE for each thing, but there can be FEWER or at least the same if there is no shortage. So, why would there be monopoly problem???

I also feel pity for you when your home country is in serious need of dentists and yet you decide to flee away and not help the people in your country. Face your own reality. No, you people don't deserve my sympathy for this type of selfish action.
 
soso said:
If you're not scared of competition, why would you feel so frustrated every time when someone is against the new school development?

If you're not scared of competition, then compete with courage with the rest of foreign-trained dentists. Why can they make their ways to dental schools, yet you cannot?

I didn't say there should be only ONE for each thing, but there can be FEWER or at least the same if there is no shortage. So, why would there be monopoly problem???
Click to expand...

hi soso
looks like you are just like your name "soso" , you have soso brains
I have been accepted into an american school already but I am fighting here for the other unfortunate foreign dentists in canada who are going through hard time , the fight is about this new school which will give them some hope
at least 40 people will achieve their goals
If i was selfish like you , I would have quietly accepted my acceptance to us dental school and stop making any comments on this forum
But I am not like you, that is the differance
and by the way the american school will give me a DDS Degree unlike the Certificate given by three canadian universities
I know the frustrations my fellow foreign trained dentists in canada are going through and now they know who they are dealing with, people like you and your buddy ,Lestazinnie, who are so selfish and self driven,
 
I know you're in a US dental school, but you can't compete with those in Canada. I'm not that stupid.

You people are selfish too. Only think about pursuing your dreams, and forget the suffering of the people in your home country.
 
hey soso..now u r out of track ..i have no concern to this topic and canadian or foreign dentist matter..we can help our country in any case no matter where we r ..but we r so good hearted that we know what we r and wanted to help ur country too.. :love:
soso said:
I know you're in a US dental school, but you can't compete with those in Canada. I'm not that stupid.

You people are selfish too. Only think about pursuing your dreams, and forget the suffering of the people in your home country.
Click to expand...
 
Hi guys ,
I just came in and found my self in the line of fire .. I haven't been following the thread since the beginning but let me tell you one thing :
You scared the **** out of me because I haven't moved to Canada yet and I was so optimistic . I thought I'd take the EE , Join a university and easily find a job . but it seems from what you wrote that things aren't really that easy in real life ..
Let me add one thing to what you guys said , I think that we're being so narrow minded here , and when i say "We" , I mean FT dentists AND local graduates . Why are we so scared of offering the market too many dentists if the market has a great potential to withstand so much more than 500 dental grads per year ? Canada is not just a country , I consider it to be a whole continent with great opportunities from East to West . So let's quit the attitude and start thinking positively ..
If FT dentists have the experience and competition , and local grads have the social and financial facilities as native residents then we're even . Let's focus more on serving the community each in one's own way and let's forget our origins .. Like you guys wrote earlier .. We're all dentists with diplomas , post graduate studies and experience in our home countries and I believe that it's really pathetic and ******ed to think that proper dental education doesn't exist anywhere in the world except in Canada and the U.S .
We all fought to become dentists , we all read the same texts and a careful reader of the forums would notice how competitive we are ..
Good luck to us all .. As you know we're all in the same boat so take care ..
PEACE
 
soso said:
If you're not scared of competition, why would you feel so frustrated every time when someone is against the new school development?

If you're not scared of competition, then compete with courage with the rest of foreign-trained dentists. Why can they make their ways to dental schools, yet you cannot?

I didn't say there should be only ONE for each thing, but there can be FEWER or at least the same if there is no shortage. So, why would there be monopoly problem???

I also feel pity for you when your home country is in serious need of dentists and yet you decide to flee away and not help the people in your country. Face your own reality. No, you people don't deserve my sympathy for this type of selfish action.
Click to expand...


Hi SOSO
scared or not scared is not the question.Question is ``Fair or not fair``In case new college of dentistry offers 40 seats to local students will you still oppose it?will you? I cant believe in 21th century , people like you can oppose opening of centre of education.Just because it will give some educational opportunities to FT dentists,it will deminish monopoly of people who wana controll the ``market.``

Its a shame when you & Lestazinnie mentioned word MARKET.I think you both dont believe in human values, you dont believe in helpng & contributing to canadian people & economy,money & bussiness is everything to you.For you everything is I , ME & MINE.

Being a canadian citizen,F T dentists have a right to educate themselves,they have a right to be traeted in fair & amicable way.We believe in equal opportunity, for every single seat there are 20 FTdentists competing, this is denial to their right of education.Licencing bodies are try to deprive FT dentists by placing hurdles,unnessasary regulations & this is illegal.
 
I oppose new schools, if there is no shortage, regardless of local or foreign.

The right to education only extends upto high school, otherwise university will be free of cost to everyone. If so, Canada will be the first few in the world to offer free university education to general public.

Now sue the Canadian government or regulatory authorities if so you like. If I remember correctly, people tried in vain to sue the government about the right to health care a few months ago.

What's wrong with MARKET? If you don't like capitalism, then go to socialist countries and no one will stop you. At least we're open at what we say, unlike some people who like capitalism and never say it. Then I don't understand why those people immigrate. For better opportunity??? Isn't it the same as job/finance stability and family security?
 
soso said:
I oppose new schools, if there is no shortage, regardless of local or foreign.

The right to education only extends upto high school, otherwise university will be free of cost to everyone. If so, Canada will be the first few in the world to offer free university education to general public.

Now sue the Canadian government or regulatory authorities if so you like. If I remember correctly, people tried in vain to sue the government about the right to health care a few months ago.

What's wrong with MARKET? If you don't like capitalism, then go to socialist countries and no one will stop you. At least we're open at what we say, unlike some people who like capitalism and never say it. Then I don't understand why those people immigrate. For better opportunity??? Isn't it the same as job/finance stability and family security?
Click to expand...

Hi SOSO

So do you still not believe that there is a shortage of dentists in canada?Who says right to educate ends at high school and at this level were you able to be in the profession that you wana be ?we nither expect nor demand free university education all we want, fair and enough opportunity to get in the profession of our choice.

It does`t matter what form of economy you choose capitalism or socialist but the crux is, one must not be dishonest ,one must not be ploting sinister methods to prevent people to enter the profession of their choice.

You know what is good thing about LAW?-----IT CHEWS ASSES ----and it did once when regulatory body ordered not to take clinical exam of FT dentists who `d passed written exams.FYI SOSO.
 
hi soso,

I AM TELLING ALL OF YOU SINCE BEGINNING THAT DO NOT MAKE ANY STATEMENT WITHOUT PROPER RESEARCH ! IT SHOWS YOUR INTELEGENCE.

About shortage of dentists in home country--

Let me give you one example comparison ,--

In India there are 10000 ( TEN THOUSAND DENTISTS ) get graduated every year !
In Canada only 500-600 Dentists / year !!!!!

In India in one state like Karnataka we have almost 22 Dental colleges and in Maharashtra state we have 12 Dental colleges.
In Maharashtra state alone almost 1000 dentists get graduated every year.
In Canada 13 states have 7-8 university dental faculties !!!

I think Whole India is not bigger than any state in Canada.

We all worked here in our home countries for minimum 4 years.
All of us in India need to do 1 year compulsory INTERNSHIP after 4 years of academics.It is not for us to get an experience , but as an obligation towards society we serv our society at almost 'no pay'.
We have already prooved ourselves in our country and have guts to reproove ourselves in some alien country like US , UK, Australia,New Zealand AND Canada.If we are scared , we would never come to any alien country to get establish.

If you are scared of 40 extra dentists every year ;
how you will servive in any country which produces 10000 dentists every year !?

I understand your point that local dentists also need to have some seats in new dental school,
but then you should also ask qestion to Univ. of Saskat.,MacGill Univ. to introduce Advanced standing program.EQUALITY SHLD BE IMPLIMENTED EVERYWHERE !

ABOUT COMPITITION ---
HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT "MEDICAL TOURISM " ?
It is very much ON in South -East Asian countries now days.
It is considered a very fast growing industry by economists !!
So now all of us are in GLOBAL COMPITITION !?
Now you people shld get more scared !

I hope after reading this you will not leave Dental school and choose some other industry due to extreme compitition !!!??

all the best
 
You can say all that experience you want, but if there is no test to verify your experience, there's no point of mentioning it. Like I said before, you have to repeat your last 2 years.

Once we graduate and establish our practice, I'm sure we'll have the experience when we reach "your age". We'll have the competency in what we do. Yes, 10000 dentists per year for a population of 1 billion in India. Graduation rate is still lower than Canada. So, why do we need more? We're self-sufficient with our own production. Or, perhaps, you can't even compete in your country and decide to go abroad, but only to find out you still can't compete with other foreign-trained dentists.

EQUALITY SHLD BE IMPLIMENTED EVERYWHERE !
Click to expand...
Who doesn't want this to happen? But until all the countries on this earth unite into a single country with a universal law, this is not gonna happen. EVERY country will try to protect its own interests. Read my lips; EVERY country. So, wait for another 100 years.

Unfortunately, is there a dental tourism? Medical program is very different from dental program. South-East Asian have their own trade agreement. The same to European union, North Amercian Act...etc. If you like their program, stay there. Why bothers coming here?

So, same old thing after so much debating: No Shortage, No Enrollment Increase. This holds for both local and foreign.
 
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