Calling all economists: Volunteering

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Shredder

Shredder

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are there any economists out there who can offer some insight on the economic basis of volunteering, for example opportunity cost, comparative advantage, marginal cost/benefit. any suggested reading?

im filling out amcas without having done any volunteering bc ive been fundamentally opposed from an economic standpoint. im certain this will hurt me in admissions but i find that im nonetheless unable to give in and do it.
 
I don't know if this is any help but there are actually a couple of books on the subject of foreign aid to impovrished countries. Some economists blame groups like USIAD for flooding certain economies with aid eg grain in africa for example, and thus putting local farmers out of business, and then making countries more reliant on foreign aid and ngos.
 
i've got an econ background and i've got nothing for you but my two cents. um...if you were so convinced, on a philosophical basis, that volunteering is a pointless thing, shouldn't you have had the economics of that standpoint down pat already, like 4 yrs ago? i mean since you're so sure and all...

on the pro-volunteering side, there's arguments like offsetting the problems of the commons, redistribution of wealth that has been gained through market inefficiencies, and shared bearing of economic burden to provide higher overall returns to society. but you should refer to 19th century capitalists like andrew carnegie for more on how philanthropy is necessary to efficient economies. he was a big fan.
 
i would give you my opinion, but since you are oppossed to volunteering i will have to receive payment first. i accept paypal or cashier's check. thank you. 🙄
 
you volunterring a bit makes sense "economically" because opportunity cost is probably your lost time playing halo2 like somebody else said or your lost $8 an hour working at some random job. though what youre asking doesnt make any sense. you cant really use economics to be fundamentally opposed to anything... the whole concept of opportunity cost requires you to look at your other possible options. you have an adam smith quote on your signature but i think youre misunderstanding him. the butcher puts food on your table because you are paying him for it.. you should volunteer because it will give you some clinical experience, you may learn something, and will make your app look better. if a volunteer gets joy out of helping people, then adam smith is proven correct.
 
Shredder said:
are there any economists out there who can offer some insight on the economic basis of volunteering, for example opportunity cost, comparative advantage, marginal cost/benefit. any suggested reading?

im filling out amcas without having done any volunteering bc ive been fundamentally opposed from an economic standpoint. im certain this will hurt me in admissions but i find that im nonetheless unable to give in and do it.
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As a former economics student/researcher...

The opportunity cost is obvious: losing $10/hr or whatever by working for pay. However, this opportunity cost is a short-term issue.

The main benefit is to be able to SAY that you've volunteered in an application, interview, etc. A similar benefit is to show that you've "paid your dues" like most other applicants; or to show that you have some capacity for "altruism," even though that word is so irrelevant in the instrumental volunteering of most premeds.

Of course, there is also another benefit, which I think is pretty minor-- to have contributed to the well-being of others, to help out some doctors, nurses, pts, etc. But what you can do as a volunteer is often so minor that you aren't really helping people all that much (in contrast to a volunteering gig I had, which was just doing interesting research for free).

The cost of not volunteering is binomially distributed. Either 1) the admissions committee doesn't care, and you get in; or 2) they think you haven't paid your dues, and you get rejected/waitlisted/no interview. If you get (1), there will be no cost to your lack of volunteering... but if (2), the cost is great. This binomial distribution is just like having a disease--you either have it or not...

The marginal utility of volunteering is pretty interesting, in my opinion. The marginal utility is high at low levels of volunteering, but low as you accumulate more volutneer hours. IE, it's great to have 50 volunteering hours vs. 0 hours; good to have 100 vs. 50; nice to have 200 vs. 100, but at a certain point (I would guess that it's about 100 or so hours), more volunteering doesn't mean anything except that daddy or mommy is funding your free work. This point implies that you should try to get 50 or 100 volunteer hours to write an update letter during the application process, noting that you are volunteering regularly in a new position.

When I said that the opportunity cost is a short-term issue, it's because the long-term opportunity cost can be great. If it helps you get in, then the economic benefit can be great-- you get into a slightly better school, score a slightly better residency, a make an extra 10 g's per year.... I don't like this kind of advice, as it underpins the crazy premed logic that leads people to drive themselves nuts by studying late into the night, fighting for slightly higher grades, freaking out over an A-/B+, etc.

If you have bothered to read this, thank you! Good luck with your application.
 
Shredder said:
are there any economists out there who can offer some insight on the economic basis of volunteering, for example opportunity cost, comparative advantage, marginal cost/benefit. any suggested reading?

im filling out amcas without having done any volunteering bc ive been fundamentally opposed from an economic standpoint. im certain this will hurt me in admissions but i find that im nonetheless unable to give in and do it.
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I'm also opposed to volunteering. It is very easy to for ADCOMS to preach volunteer/life experiences, while at the same time making over 400 grand/yr.
I'm also going in with the approach that I don't give a **** about pretending I'm the son of Mother Theresa. Everyone here who volunteers isn't really volunteering. They do it to make themselves look better so they can make 400 grand/yr later down the road. I want to be a physician because medicine has been in my family for over 200 years. Period.
 
if you have great credentials you dont need to volunteer...i have friends from here at UT who have great marks and have done great things who didnt give a **** about volunteering and got into great schools...this is ofcourse those who have 34+ and 3.8+...it depends on your situation, LOR, and PS...
 
jon0013 said:
if you have great credentials you dont need to volunteer...i have friends from here at UT who have great marks and have done great things who didnt give a **** about volunteering and got into great schools...this is ofcourse those who have 34+ and 3.8+...it depends on your situation, LOR, and PS...
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UT? Which one? lol
 
everyone assumes the opportunity cost of volunteering is working at a $10/hr job. maybe if you guys assume that said job is going to continue forever then yes, that is the cost. however, as an ambitious person i think i derive more benefit from studying in classes, reading and learning outside of classes, and taking up paying jobs that develop important skills for later on, regardless of what area they are in. many skills come into play in being a competent physician and human being, not just giving back to the community in general ways. its rare for a volunteer to be specialized in his area of philanthropy, and that right there is a deadweight loss.

people like carnegie never volunteer, they donate money to others and let them do the charity work. its not worth successful peopless time to volunteer, so why should it be worth future successful peoples' time. instead they should be working towards becoming successful so they can help the community 10x in the future rather than 1x in the present. consumption vs investment, forego some now for greater returns later on.

hakashi, awesome. glad to know im not alone. ive got the 3.8 down, now im really banking on a high mcat coming up shortly so i can rub it in adcoms hypocritical faces. as for the adam smith quote--premeds dont care about the satisfaction they derive from it, they care about schools seeing it. so, schools might as well be up front about their desire to see it and drop the whole altruism bit. i dont see how it became an unsaid prerec over time.
 
Interesting. I have an Econ background, do not have any volunteer experience listed on my AMCAS application, and never thought twice about that possibly giving me a disadvantage... until now.

But why should it? I have PAID hospital and medical clinic experience, which I consider much more meaningful. I underwent training, had real responsibilities, and gained a lot more experience than the hospital volunteers I see playing with little kids in the waiting rooms or sitting around chatting with their friends during their volunteer shifts.

I also have published papers (which I got paid to write) and own/manage a business with my husband. No time to volunteer.

As for the economic explanation behind med students volunteering, I think the theory of signalling applies. People waste time,etc. to signal to adcoms that they are worthy candidates. (The theory of signalling also explains why people buy really expensive suits, get useless college degrees, and why male peacocks have ridiculously large feathers).

I'm too lazy to go into a real explanation. But i didn't volunteer and i think i'll get in to med school anyway.
 
Shredder said:
people like carnegie never volunteer, they donate money to others and let them do the charity work. its not worth successful peopless time to volunteer, so why should it be worth future successful peoples' time. instead they should be working towards becoming successful so they can help the community 10x in the future rather than 1x in the present. consumption vs investment, forego some now for greater returns later on.
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I agree with you, but there are also pitfalls to such an approach with admissions committees.

This attitude is completely right, in my opinion. The person who runs the clinical trials does 10x more than the freshman who admisters surveys to patients.

But if you are an applicant like me, who has done more of the running of clinical trials/grant writing/etc. than ground level work, it's not always for the best. Some drs think that you won't be able to handle your responsibility when you are a med student, resident, etc... when you are the person in charge of doing the **** work, pt histories, etc.

Ultimately they want to know that you are able to be a leader (10x) but don't mind/totally enjoy doing the 1x work.

As for the theory of signalling: totally agree. Sometimes this whole process seems like a series of signals, and as long as you do all of them well enough, you get into school.

And, I agree with you and the others who think that volunteering is a bunch of bs. if you get paid, all the better. At least to me, working for ca$h money also indicates that you are definitely doing something meaningful, as opposed to people who rack of volunteer hours doing nothing.
 
Shredder said:
hakashi, awesome. glad to know im not alone. ive got the 3.8 down, now im really banking on a high mcat coming up shortly so i can rub it in adcoms hypocritical faces. as for the adam smith quote--premeds dont care about the satisfaction they derive from it, they care about schools seeing it. so, schools might as well be up front about their desire to see it and drop the whole altruism bit. i dont see how it became an unsaid prerec over time.
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I live in Canada and have a 4.0 OMSAS GPA. I have no ****ing clue what my AMCAS GPA is and I am sick of trying. My undergrad averages for years one and two are 93% and 95% respectively, whatever that means in GPA.

ADCOMS really are hypocrits. Premeds don't care about anyone but themselves and making themselves look like they care to the ADCOMS. I am going for the EC/scholarship method of applying and I'm not going to pretend to be Mother Theresa's Son, because I'm not.... Howeber, I think more and more schools in the US are realizing the volunteer 'prereq' is a crock of ****. Unfortunately in Canada, we are becoming even more socialistic which is not good for me lol. That's why I'm applying to schools in Texas and other Confederate State schools 👍
 
Hakashi said:
I'm also going in with the approach that I don't give a **** about pretending I'm the son of Mother Theresa.
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Hakashi said:
I'm not going to pretend to be Mother Theresa's Son...
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Well, the nuns of the Missionaries of Charity aren't exactly in the habit of having babies.

If you do decide to pretend to be someone you're not, you might want to choose something a little more believable. 😛
 
Instead of asking for people to justify your decision after the fact, why don't you stick to your guns and explain to the adcoms just why you find it distasteful to volunteer? Just write what you've told us here.

That way, you really stick it to them! Show those hypocritical bastards just how un-hypocritical you are! Man will they love to get their hands on such a no-nonsense scholar who doesn't have time for wishy-washy things like volunteerism because it is just a big ole waste of time.

Andrew Carnegie? Chump! Mother Teresea? Commie! Jimmy Carter? Don't get me started!
 
heeter said:
Show those hypocritical bastards just how un-hypocritical you are!

Andrew Carnegie? Chump! Mother Teresea? Commie! Jimmy Carter?
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that wont work too well for hypocritical admissions. carnegie was solid, but dont tell me he was a volunteer. just like rockefeller. volunteering and philanthropy arent one and the same. would you call bill gates a volunteer? gates foundation is worth 20 billion dollars however. thats more than every premed in the world could produce by talking to patients and giving them water. its useless activity, thats why its worth nothing economically.

and carter was a terrible president, that shouldve been his first priority rather than gunning for prizes and breaking up fights

lastly its not justifying my decision after the fact; recently ive considered volunteering to make a last premed push, but im thinking no. nobody is able to come up with any well founded reason to pursue it. helping people and yada yada, come on, dont fool oneself.
 
I find hospice volunteering very rewarding. It exposes me to death and dying in a very personal and intimate way, and helps me understand the nature of the healthcare endgame; regarding illness and death, I have developed a more human perspective *and* a more clinical perspective. It's an experience that's priceless; to me, anyways. I'd like to be the best physician I can be, and this particular kind of volunteering helps me to do that. Even if I had a million dollars, and I could pay a CNA to do the things I go and volunteer to do, I wouldn't. How would that help me any?

BTW, the hospice system in the US actually runs because of volunteer hours; a certain percentage of manpower needs to come from unpaid volunteering or else government funding is capped/decreased.

As far as economics: you should donate money or volunteer or both. They're one and the same. You're making it possible for an organization to do some good, whether you're enabling it through donations or through giving your time as a worker.

The only difference is that writing a check doesn't enrich you by providing worthwhile experiences that help you develop personally/professionally. Bill Gates can write as many checks as he wants, but he's not the one going to medical school. And incidentally, is he any more or less respectable than the college grad who joins the peace corps, the old lady who teaches reading on Sundays at the local church, or the guy who coaches baseball at the Boys and Girls club? I don't think so.

Personal integrity is personal integrity. But I want to think that most physicians see the personal benefits from volunteering in some capacity--whether you're liberal or conservative, socialist or libertarian.
 
you know i find it a bit disheartening to hear all you lambast volunteering as a meaningful use of one's time. How many of you have ever actually been the patient or family member of someone seriously ill, how many of you have ever seen the influence of a lowly volunteer help ease that situation, i have on multiple occasions in my life. I still think there are people who honestly enjoy volunteering for the sake of volunteering, others do it holistically so they can write something on their app. But i do agree that meaningless volunteer jobs like gift shop are useless, on the other hand anyone know where i can get training as a phlebotomist!?
 
seethrew said:
i would give you my opinion, but since you are oppossed to volunteering i will have to receive payment first. i accept paypal or cashier's check. thank you. 🙄
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Medikit said:
nice
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i didnt think it was necessary to address this, but i was mistaken. with this being an open forum community, it is in everyones best interest to contribute and provide opinions freely, in the hope that everyone else will do the same. if everyone parades around demanding monetary compensation for posts there will be no forum. its analogous to paying taxes vs cheating on them, or voting.

by the way, ive already given payment to sdn for the services i derive from this site, which i see you havent even with over 1000 posts, nice. think twice before making another smarta$$ comment
 
Shredder, you're right; I'm really tired of people who endlessly volunteer solely to fill out a line on their app. For me with dentistry, I really had no clue what I was getting into at first (no parents/relatives in the field, maybe yours are), so I shadowed at a dental clinic a bit. They taught me skills that could land me a paid assistant job if I wanted it, so I lucked out on one of the few volunteer activities I've ever done in my life. Here I was forced to bite the bullet, as I could either waste time looking for a paid position with no experience or move on (don't forget that opportunity cost). Every other form of experience I've had, though, has been paid (healthcare consulting, pharmacy tech, psych research assistant, working in clinical research). Reasoning: My services/time are worth $$, so why shouldn't I request it? It's worked out so far. So I hope you have some sort of paid experience or something else.

Was the volunteering valuable? Sure. But being a tool worsens my job/school performance, which is even more valuable (adcoms admit as much). After my marginal utility flatlines (different for everyone, 20-25 hours/week per 'experience' for me), I get out and move on.

What I want is a tax write-off for the hourly rate of my volunteering time. This way, you at least get some explicit utility out of it. If I got a write-off, maybe I'd volunteer more (from none right now).
 
Shredder said:
lastly its not justifying my decision after the fact; recently ive considered volunteering to make a last premed push, but im thinking no. nobody is able to come up with any well founded reason to pursue it. helping people and yada yada, come on, dont fool oneself.
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Really? Why are you asking for economic reasons for not volunteering in order to put them in your PS? If you are not justifying a decisions you have already made, why ask?

You already have your own reasons for not volunteering or even considering it until your recent "premed push". Put that in your PS, don't make up stuff to justify not volunteering.
 
dianamd said:
As a former economics student/researcher...

The opportunity cost is obvious: losing $10/hr or whatever by working for pay. However, this opportunity cost is a short-term issue.

The main benefit is to be able to SAY that you've volunteered in an application, interview, etc. A similar benefit is to show that you've "paid your dues" like most other applicants; or to show that you have some capacity for "altruism," even though that word is so irrelevant in the instrumental volunteering of most premeds.

Of course, there is also another benefit, which I think is pretty minor-- to have contributed to the well-being of others, to help out some doctors, nurses, pts, etc. But what you can do as a volunteer is often so minor that you aren't really helping people all that much (in contrast to a volunteering gig I had, which was just doing interesting research for free).

The cost of not volunteering is binomially distributed. Either 1) the admissions committee doesn't care, and you get in; or 2) they think you haven't paid your dues, and you get rejected/waitlisted/no interview. If you get (1), there will be no cost to your lack of volunteering... but if (2), the cost is great. This binomial distribution is just like having a disease--you either have it or not...

The marginal utility of volunteering is pretty interesting, in my opinion. The marginal utility is high at low levels of volunteering, but low as you accumulate more volutneer hours. IE, it's great to have 50 volunteering hours vs. 0 hours; good to have 100 vs. 50; nice to have 200 vs. 100, but at a certain point (I would guess that it's about 100 or so hours), more volunteering doesn't mean anything except that daddy or mommy is funding your free work. This point implies that you should try to get 50 or 100 volunteer hours to write an update letter during the application process, noting that you are volunteering regularly in a new position.

When I said that the opportunity cost is a short-term issue, it's because the long-term opportunity cost can be great. If it helps you get in, then the economic benefit can be great-- you get into a slightly better school, score a slightly better residency, a make an extra 10 g's per year.... I don't like this kind of advice, as it underpins the crazy premed logic that leads people to drive themselves nuts by studying late into the night, fighting for slightly higher grades, freaking out over an A-/B+, etc.

If you have bothered to read this, thank you! Good luck with your application.
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This reply is outstanding and I couldn't agree more strongly.
 
Ok fine, you don't have volunteering, but you do have clinical experience, right? (not shadowing, adcoms recommend that but they want to see valuable experience)

Honestly I find some of your attitudes towards volunteering disheartening. When you're working your 80 hour work weeks for pay of about $7/hr in residency (and also depending on what your specialty is you only make like $15/hr) that partially is charity. If you don't want to volunteer I suppose that is your choice. Some pre-meds do it to give back to the community. I choose to do it in different methods (not all hospital related) but I guess I found causes that were worthwhile for me. I think volunteering as character building but then again, I'm older than the traditional pre-med so I have a little bit more "life learning" experience to pull from which maybe makes me value volunteering a little more? I don't know. I'm not just doing it for my application, I'm doing it because I want to give back. I'm in the process to trying to find out "how" I can do that (i'm in the process of moving and most require a time commitment I can't commit to so I'm looking at the city that I'm relocating to).

My degree was in economics back in school and yes there is a cost opportunity. But a few hours a week isn't an opportunity cost to me. Then again, this is just my opinion.
 
Shredder said:
i didnt think it was necessary to address this, but i was mistaken. with this being an open forum community, it is in everyones best interest to contribute and provide opinions freely, in the hope that everyone else will do the same. if everyone parades around demanding monetary compensation for posts there will be no forum. its analogous to paying taxes vs cheating on them, or voting.

by the way, ive already given payment to sdn for the services i derive from this site, which i see you havent even with over 1000 posts, nice. think twice before making another smarta$$ comment
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ok... i will volunteer... just relax and i will pull that stick outta yer butt... 🙄 feel better? 😉

chill out dood - just keepin ya on yer toes. :laugh: jeez... louise, peeps are soooo touchy.
 
Shredder said:
i didnt think it was necessary to address this, but i was mistaken. with this being an open forum community, it is in everyones best interest to contribute and provide opinions freely, in the hope that everyone else will do the same. if everyone parades around demanding monetary compensation for posts there will be no forum. its analogous to paying taxes vs cheating on them, or voting.

by the way, ive already given payment to sdn for the services i derive from this site, which i see you havent even with over 1000 posts, nice. think twice before making another smarta$$ comment
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Okay, not to be annoying, but aren't you acting irrationally (in an economic sense) by donating the money to SDN? Since it is a public good that everyone enjoys, your money gives you little benefit while "drastically" increasing cost. Of course I am assuming that the "added benefits" of being an Angel are so little that they are worth almost nothing (sorry SDN!).

As a person who is economically-oriented in his goals and means of achievement (your unwillingness to do volunteering), you still know that at times one must 'bite' the bullet. If you can't imagine it purely for the altruism (which few can), then imagine it as a sort of payment or rite of passage for medical school application.

If all of this is just stupid, as long as you have clinical experience and extracurriculars outside medicine, you will prolly be fine.
 
I believe your argument about investing in the future. I think volunteering is important for two reasons:
1) Understanding what you are committing your life too. If one worked in a clinical a setting with real responsibilities & understood the demand of being a physician than No volunteering = No big deal.
2) Demonstrating that one is committed to the common good and the care of your patients. Not in a polyanna-ish way, for it is not like we must be mother Theresa. But to limit the number of physicians who will end up as a profit maximizing, system gaming **** stain.
 
Phil Anthropist said:
Well, the nuns of the Missionaries of Charity aren't exactly in the habit of having babies.

If you do decide to pretend to be someone you're not, you might want to choose something a little more believable. 😛
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lol.

I was merely making the point that I'm not going to pretend I'm some martyr who only thinks about helping others, which is what most premeds try to come of as to pretend they care. At least I admit it. I am doing medicine because of family history, not because I want to help all the starving children in Africa.
 
Lindyhopper said:
I believe your argument about investing in the future. I think volunteering is important for two reasons:
1) Understanding what you are committing your life too. If one worked in a clinical a setting with real responsibilities & understood the demand of being a physician than No volunteering = No big deal.
2) Demonstrating that one is committed to the common good and the care of your patients. Not in a polyanna-ish way, for it is not like we must be mother Theresa. But to limit the number of physicians who will end up as a profit maximizing, system gaming **** stain.
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1. Pretty much every male in my family is a physician. I know better than any volunteer what being a physician is like, because I see the personal home-life effects it has too.

2. System gaining **** stain? Kind of sounds like 99% of the premeds who volunteer 👍 At least I'm honest about why I'm doing medicine rather than the empathy/altruistic bull**** people say.
 
To the hospice worker:
It sounds like you have truely had a wonderful experience. If I were unable to get a paid position that gave me valuable medical experience, I too would volunteer.

Or, if I were being supported by my parents, or had a large amount of money hidden away that I could live off of, I too would volunteer.

HOWEVER, I have had numerous offers to work (for pay) in medical clinics, research settings and in the hospital. And in these positions, I was given way more responsibility and opportunities than volunteers and these same offices and hospitals. And I have a family and bills to pay.

So, while I do not look down on others who volunteer (I realize they are doing a great thing)... I have just found a much more satisfactory means of reaching my end.
 
Remember, there are MANY ways in which to volunteer, not just at a hospital pushing wheelchairs in the atrium (which I am by no means knocking but it wasn't for me). My volunteer experience didn't even start until I got active with the Oregon Society of Physician Assistants as a PA student, then I got interested in lobbying, practice law, etc. Spent three years on the Board as Secretary. Usually boring, long meetings, but definitely volunteer and you can bet it's listed on my experiences on AMCAS.
If you're an economist, what about offering your services to elderly or poor people who need help with their taxes etc.? I know lots of people (ex-husband included) who volunteered occasionally with such programs.
Do keep in mind that volunteering does as much good for you as it does for the people you help. You will learn things you didn't know you didn't know, and you'll get warm fuzzies for it, not to mention looking better on your apps. Just make sure it's something you want to do and find fulfilling.
Lisa PA-C


SeattlePostBach said:
To the hospice worker:
It sounds like you have truely had a wonderful experience. If I were unable to get a paid position that gave me valuable medical experience, I too would volunteer.

Or, if I were being supported by my parents, or had a large amount of money hidden away that I could live off of, I too would volunteer.

HOWEVER, I have had numerous offers to work (for pay) in medical clinics, research settings and in the hospital. And in these positions, I was given way more responsibility and opportunities than volunteers and these same offices and hospitals. And I have a family and bills to pay.

So, while I do not look down on others who volunteer (I realize they are doing a great thing)... I have just found a much more satisfactory means of reaching my end.
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primadonna22274 said:
If you're an economist, what about offering your services to elderly or poor people who need help with their taxes etc.? I know lots of people (ex-husband included) who volunteered occasionally with such programs.
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economists don't do taxes. accountants or tax lawyers take care of that stuff.

economists just talk about theory and models... like trying to describe how certain behaviors (like volunteer work) fit into a logical model.
 
Hakashi said:
I want to be a physician because medicine has been in my family for over 200 years. Period.
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I think that you need to re-evaluate your reasons for wanting to go into medicine. Trying to keep a family tradition going is not going to cut it.
 
Shredder said:
ive got the 3.8 down, now im really banking on a high mcat coming up shortly so i can rub it in adcoms hypocritical faces.
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1) I don't see how an adcom is hypocritical for wanting applicants to volunteer.

2) You don't really need volunteering if you want to become a research physician. However, you'll need to apply to research-oriented schools and say from the beginning that you want to do research and not patient care.

3) Here is the opportunity cost assuming that you volunteer for 200 hours: $10/hr * 200 total hours = $2000 lost to volunteering. In return, you'll get a strong application and a better chance at acceptance. If you should get rejected, and volunteering being one of the reasons for receiving a thin envelope, you'll then lose about $100,000 in possible income for each year that you take off to re-apply.
 
deuist said:
1) I don't see how an adcom is hypocritical for wanting applicants to volunteer.

3) Here is the opportunity cost assuming that you volunteer for 200 hours: $10/hr * 200 total hours = $2000 lost to volunteering. In return, you'll get a strong application and a better chance at acceptance. If you should get rejected, and volunteering being one of the reasons for receiving a thin envelope, you'll then lose about $100,000 in possible income for each year that you take off to re-apply.
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1) hypocritical bc i doubt theyve done any volunteering after getting admitted to med school, like 99% of other premeds/docs

3) its not as simple as 10x200=2000. this is assuming you are at some work where you are essentially trading time for money and receiving no skills or investment in your future in return. for example, licking stamps or stuffing envelopes, two common examples to illustrate this point. now, what if through your 10 dollar per hour work you end up getting promoted or learning skills and responsibility that you would never learn in volunteering. youre much more likely to acquire these benefits from paid work where people actually care about what you do, vs volunteering where you change pillowcases or chat up people to make them smile and laugh. how often do docs chat up patients to make them smile and laugh, thats not what drhood is about. there shouldnt be any pretense among premeds or adcoms that medicine is about making people happy. there is never any explanation for why docs dont work for free.
Hakashi said:
1. Pretty much every male in my family is a physician. I know better than any volunteer what being a physician is like, because I see the personal home-life effects it has too.
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i too have a lot of docs in my family as well as a doc brother, and this has given me a much better impression of the real lives that docs live vs what ppl see superficially in hospitals. ive done some shadowing but i much prefer to hear stories from my bro about med school and residency, a lot more valuable.

the question is, would medicine be better off if volunteering were actually frowned upon, and docs were all money hungry and self centered. the best docs make the most money, so it would work out in the end if everyone is driven by greed with a complete lack of regard for altruism. there is no use fighting the invisible hand
 
Shredder said:
1) hypocritical bc i doubt theyve done any volunteering after getting admitted to med school, like 99% of other premeds/docs
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Watch out ... I'm at a top 20 med school and I can name dozens of physicians, including members of the adcom, who are volunteers. This includes being officers in organizations such as the American Heart Association and the alumni association, working in local free clinics, traveling abroad to provide free care, serving as unpaid advisors to service organizations, doing peer review for journals; we even have a adcom member (retired physician) who is tutoring an inner city kid after school.

Along with life-long learning, adcoms expect to admit applicants who are looking for a life of service to society and to the profession.

how often do docs chat up patients to make them smile and laugh
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There is a time & a place for everything. One applicant awhile back wrote a secondary essay about the ideal physician and specifically named someone who made her laugh while he sutured her injury, helping her to forget her troubles. He was able to change gears and was very serious and calming in approaching the next patient who was crying and upset. Being able to "read" people and to enjoy being with them is an important attribute.
 
I'm not reading all this... because i generally stay away from SDN. But, I do love economics.

Now, this may not be relevant to the entire threads, since i 've only scanned.

Medschools are not going to KNOW or CARE if what you did was paid or volunteer. They are going to care WHAT you did (as opposed to how much you made for it), what you LEARNED from it. HOW it affected your descision to choose whatever your chosen career is. and how it changed YOU.

case it point. I made 7 bucks per hour as a freshman tutoring. I completely volunteered for free teaching a computer class in the communinity. These two activities are listed in the same category - Teaching/tutoring. No medschool is going to actually call the agency, unless they had a reason to suspect I never did the activity. And, then, they will probably not ask how much I made doing the activity.

Just an FYI for y'all.
 
deuist said:
I think that you need to re-evaluate your reasons for wanting to go into medicine. Trying to keep a family tradition going is not going to cut it.
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No offence, but you think doesn't matter. Your opinion of what makes a good physician doesn't matter. My grandfather/uncles/father will do everything they can to ensure that I get into medical school, rather than some bum with no family history in medicine.

What gives you the right to take the place of a physician's son in medical school, after he has contributed to the medical profession before you were born?
 
Shredder said:
i too have a lot of docs in my family as well as a doc brother, and this has given me a much better impression of the real lives that docs live vs what ppl see superficially in hospitals. ive done some shadowing but i much prefer to hear stories from my bro about med school and residency, a lot more valuable.

the question is, would medicine be better off if volunteering were actually frowned upon, and docs were all money hungry and self centered. the best docs make the most money, so it would work out in the end if everyone is driven by greed with a complete lack of regard for altruism. there is no use fighting the invisible hand
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Hello Shredder.

Let's call a spade a spade shall we? Every premed who volunteers doesn't give a **** about anyone but themselves. This is not a secret. People go into medicine for the money and/or family tradition. Personally, family tradition has more to do with it than money, however money is obviously good. Following a doctor around like some mosquito, watching him diagnose the same 12 things he diagnoses every other day does nothing to prepare you for medicine. Not only have I seen what it is like to be a physician in the workforce, but I also see what effect it has on your personal life everyday. People who shadow doctors do not have that.

I don't know if I would frown upon volunteering. I think it should kind of be used as like a tie-breaker or something you know? Two candidates have equal GPA/MCAT/EC/Work Experience etc....

Let me put it to you this way. Most doctors I meet are money hungry dinguses. Furthermore, I meet more female pricks than male pricks. The female physician knows most people think women are friendly/altruistic, but they are just as selfish, if not moreso than the men. Male physicians are like businessmen, they are friendly because they want promotions and they do their job well. Women physicians don't give a ****, because they just go on part-time anyway, and couldn't care less about the dying patients they 'volunteered' for in their premed years.

Just once I'd like to here someone on an ADCOM say, "Enough bull****. You're volunteering because you want to make 400 grand a year like me."
 
Hakashi said:
No offence, but you think doesn't matter. Your opinion of what makes a good physician doesn't matter. My grandfather/uncles/father will do everything they can to ensure that I get into medical school, rather than some bum with no family history in medicine.

What gives you the right to take the place of a physician's son in medical school, after he has contributed to the medical profession before you were born?
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Hakashi, Lose the attitude. I've seen triple legacies in "waitlist hell". There there are no guarantees.
Don't expect that your family's influence is going to get you a place in medical school. You had better have gpa, MCAT, EC, & PS as good or better than the competition.
And find a better reason for going into medicine than "everyone in the family does it". If no one in your family were a doctor, why would you want to be a physician?
 
LizzyM said:
Hakashi, Lose the attitude. I've seen triple legacies in "waitlist hell". There there are no guarantees.
Don't expect that your family's influence is going to get you a place in medical school. You had better have gpa, MCAT, EC, & PS as good or better than the competition.
And find a better reason for going into medicine than "everyone in the family does it". If no one in your family were a doctor, why would you want to be a physician?
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LizzyM, lose your attitude.

Just because you don't feel I am more deserving of a place in medical than someone with no physicians in the family doesn't mean people don't disgaree with you. My father has been a physician for over 30 years, and it would be an insult to him and everything he's done for the profession to not accept myself.

Do you think I'm stupid? I can bullsh*t like everyone else here in the interview if I get the impression they like volunteer/socialistic crap. I can make stuff up. What are they going to do? Check with my uncle who I put down as a contact? LOL. Volunteering is a crock of ****. Period.

Medicine has been in my family for over 200 years. What gives YOU the right to take my spot in medical school, as the son in a long line of physicians serving the community? It is you who needs to lose the attitude hun.
 
Shredder said:
1) hypocritical bc i doubt theyve done any volunteering after getting admitted to med school, like 99% of other premeds/docs
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As LizzyM says, you should go check your facts.

I work at a health instititution and seen doctors ride out 25-30 miles outside their comfort zone to man a vaccination clinic. And this wasnt b/c it was "part of their duties", there is actually a waitlist for the doctors to serve this community.

What you, Shredder, as well as Hakashi suffer from is a serious case of cynicism. I dont know who screwed you early in your life, but learning to have hope would be great for your future carreer, as well as life in general.
 
Hakashi said:
LizzyM, lose your attitude.

Just because you don't feel I am more deserving of a place in medical than someone with no physicians in the family doesn't mean people don't disgaree with you. My father has been a physician for over 30 years, and it would be an insult to him and everything he's done for the profession to not accept myself.

Do you think I'm stupid? I can bullsh*t like everyone else here in the interview if I get the impression they like volunteer/socialistic crap. I can make stuff up. What are they going to do? Check with my uncle who I put down as a contact? LOL. Volunteering is a crock of ****. Period.

Medicine has been in my family for over 200 years. What gives YOU the right to take my spot in medical school, as the son in a long line of physicians serving the community? It is you who needs to lose the attitude hun.
Click to expand...

You are clearly a troll... Good day to you future Doctor.
 
There are some people on this thread with cynical views and I truly feel sorry for you. It is those types of doctors I truly want to stay away from. In some ways, cynicism is the poison with todays society. With so many things wrong in the system and with doctors making less and less, its getting to be one of the hardest professions out there. Everyone has their legacies ... but I think some just go the wrong way about it. There are some of my friends who are legacies, yet I never saw them as disillusioned as some people on here.

The typical pre-med loses perspective in the race to get accepted sometimes. I wish you guys all luck as the process starts again but I hope some of you reevaluate "why" you are doing medicine.

I also noticed how noone responded to my post about the salary of doctors/residents. It seems people are picking and choosing their battles. But remember, you can't pick and choose out there. The truth remains that for at least 7 years (until you are making the big buck) you "are" doing volunteer work even if you don't realize it. If you can't embrace the compassion for volunteering, then I don't want to see your bedside manner.
 
sigh...originally i was just thinking about the cost/benefit of volunteering vs other activities. i feel med schools shouldnt push it to the extent that they do and rather should favor other ways of building character and pertinent credentials for medical school.

the fact that it seems to have become pretty much a requirement is shocking and disappointing to me. ideally you should look at a premed volunteer and see a warm hearted person who is selfless. thats just not the case though, since the system has made it all a facade. time spent volunteering is supposed to be taken away from leisure time, not scheduled in with the rest of your to do list. everything is becoming increasingly artificial, i wonder when it will boil over.
 
Shredder said:
sigh...originally i was just thinking about the cost/benefit of volunteering vs other activities. i feel med schools shouldnt push it to the extent that they do and rather should favor other ways of building character and pertinent credentials for medical school.

the fact that it seems to have become pretty much a requirement is shocking and disappointing to me. ideally you should look at a premed volunteer and see a warm hearted person who is selfless. thats just not the case though, since the system has made it all a facade. time spent volunteering is supposed to be taken away from leisure time, not scheduled in with the rest of your to do list. everything is becoming increasingly artificial, i wonder when it will boil over.
Click to expand...
Life happens when you aren't looking. Volunteering can be a leisure activity. As stated if you have other clinical experiences you will be fine. But you have to know what you are getting into. As a resident/med student, alot of scut work WILL be done by yours truly. That is how it goes. Medicine you have to earn your dues. I sacrafice a lot but its also about balance and time management.


Here is your cost benefit - get a position (paid) at a clinic/hospital vs. volunteering.

I personally got satisfaction tonight of calming a family down who had just found out their daughter (6/7 yo) was there after she was mauled in the head by a dog. They were waiting for teh CT to come back when I left. After dealing with them and about the 30 other patients back in the bays, honestly it was a good day. And my volunteer experience is going to be great because I get to shadow whenever/whereever I want in the ER (including the level I trauma bay) as well as I get to help people with the little things (like finding them a phone) or finding where their little daughter is ...

I just ask that you don't lose sight of the puspose of medicine - time spent, doesn't have to be time wasted.
 
Shredder said:
sigh...originally i was just thinking about the cost/benefit of volunteering vs other activities. i feel med schools shouldnt push it to the extent that they do and rather should favor other ways of building character and pertinent credentials for medical school.

the fact that it seems to have become pretty much a requirement is shocking and disappointing to me. ideally you should look at a premed volunteer and see a warm hearted person who is selfless. thats just not the case though, since the system has made it all a facade. time spent volunteering is supposed to be taken away from leisure time, not scheduled in with the rest of your to do list. everything is becoming increasingly artificial, i wonder when it will boil over.
Click to expand...

Seriously dude, get a hug.

At first I thought you were being humorous or sarcastic, but the more I read into this the more I feel for you.

First of all, volunteering is not a requirement. I got into medical school without any major volunteer service. Of my ECs, only one could be considered a "volunteer" post: I was president of a college group that went out to inner-city h.s. to increase enrollment in our school.

But that doesnt mean that I didnt care about others. Part of my "leisure" time is used to help out my younger cousins to make it through their high schools and get them off to college. Just recently, in my "leisure" time, i emailed a seller on Ebay to inform her that her account has been hijacked.

Like it or not, the world is built on and runs on trust. There is nothing wrong in being a little skeptical. In fact a healthy dose of skepticism can save us from being taken advantage. However having little to no faith in your fellow colleagues will be taxing on your life and perhaps make you neurotic.
 
dianamd said:
As a former economics student/researcher...

The opportunity cost is obvious: losing $10/hr or whatever by working for pay. However, this opportunity cost is a short-term issue.

The main benefit is to be able to SAY that you've volunteered in an application, interview, etc. A similar benefit is to show that you've "paid your dues" like most other applicants; or to show that you have some capacity for "altruism," even though that word is so irrelevant in the instrumental volunteering of most premeds.

Of course, there is also another benefit, which I think is pretty minor-- to have contributed to the well-being of others, to help out some doctors, nurses, pts, etc. But what you can do as a volunteer is often so minor that you aren't really helping people all that much (in contrast to a volunteering gig I had, which was just doing interesting research for free).

The cost of not volunteering is binomially distributed. Either 1) the admissions committee doesn't care, and you get in; or 2) they think you haven't paid your dues, and you get rejected/waitlisted/no interview. If you get (1), there will be no cost to your lack of volunteering... but if (2), the cost is great. This binomial distribution is just like having a disease--you either have it or not...

The marginal utility of volunteering is pretty interesting, in my opinion. The marginal utility is high at low levels of volunteering, but low as you accumulate more volutneer hours. IE, it's great to have 50 volunteering hours vs. 0 hours; good to have 100 vs. 50; nice to have 200 vs. 100, but at a certain point (I would guess that it's about 100 or so hours), more volunteering doesn't mean anything except that daddy or mommy is funding your free work. This point implies that you should try to get 50 or 100 volunteer hours to write an update letter during the application process, noting that you are volunteering regularly in a new position.

When I said that the opportunity cost is a short-term issue, it's because the long-term opportunity cost can be great. If it helps you get in, then the economic benefit can be great-- you get into a slightly better school, score a slightly better residency, a make an extra 10 g's per year.... I don't like this kind of advice, as it underpins the crazy premed logic that leads people to drive themselves nuts by studying late into the night, fighting for slightly higher grades, freaking out over an A-/B+, etc.

If you have bothered to read this, thank you! Good luck with your application.
Click to expand...

This was a great post. I'm going to distill it out without all the big words:

Either you:

A) Go the safe route and volunteer (not to mention, proving to YOURSELF that medicine is the career for you), get in, and become a physician;

Or you:

B) Roll the dice and apply without volunteering, get in, and become a physician. If this is the case, kudos to you. You must have an enormous phallus.

Or you:

C) Roll the dice and apply without volunteering, DON'T get in, waste $3000 applying, and spend the rest of your life staring at a spreadsheet in your cubicle.

I agree with many other posters- many run-of-the-mill clinical volunteer positions don't really benefit patients all that much. But you, Shredder, are no admissions committee, and it's naive to think that you can justify to them that you are philosophically against volunteering when virtually every medical school applicant since the beginning of time has done some sort of volunteer work.

If you launch into some diatribe against volunteering in an interview after being asked about it, you will come off either as defensive or a nutball. I wouldn't want either of those adjectives going down on MY interview evaluation.
 
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