Affirmative Action - Med School Admis.

IkeBoy18 · Jul 19, 2005

Forgive me if this thread has been started somewhere else already; if it is I didn't see it and would appreciate someone linking me.

I wanted to know everyones opinion regarding some med schools using AA in their admissions process. For/Against..why? etc...

IMO I do understand that there have been some studies concluding that ppl receive better healthcare from a physician of the same race. This is understandable concept to digest. Im going to speak about the possible reasoning behind AA for Black americans, as I am black/korean.

Not to toot and old horn but it all starts with slavery. It wasn't that long ago when slavery hindered black americans from any type of education, with death being a consequence of something as petty as learning how to read. Not too long after that blacks had to cope with segregated schools with whatever teachers they could find, whom probably werent that qualified and outdated resources if any. Then came B vs BOE. Sure some desegregation went on but it wasnt smooth. This left black students trying to learn in a very hostile environment, as can be imagined from expereinces of the Little Rock 7, that also was not an isolated event. In the present time, it can be concluded from statistics that educational segregation still does exist through housing segregation. Every neighborhood in the nation that isn't majority minority is >1% black. Probably has a lot to do with the statistics regarding rejections for mortgage loans. 20% of blacks get denied overall home loans; only 10% for whites when credit and income are controlled. Many of these disparities arise in the housing industry. Basically keeping white neighborhoods white and black neighborhoods black. It isn't a big secret that better resources are available in school districts who get more tax money from their residents. It also isnt a secret the avg. black household make almost half of what avg white households make. Nothing else needs to be said there. The point is, even today, it is still hard to for black ppl to get to areas with better resources.Not saying that this is the main problem, its just one of the many. As I was saying about the income, whites almost double blacks. There isnt enough money in an avg black home to get tutoring, and other resources such as a computer, learning materials when young, books, even proper medical care to diagnose a learning disorder early. One cant help what situation they were born into. Especially when it is not a consequence of their own doing. The educational/slavery thing, compare it to this: The govt forcefully stops a sprinter from training, never to walk more than a snails pace, for years. Then down the road force them to compete with everyone else who have been able to carry out their own will. Can you expect that sprinter to compete at the same level as the others who have been training the whole time? This is where affirmative action comes in. But I see AA, in any aspect, has been a lose-lose proposition for black ppl. The counteract the many acts of discrimination in the past and present, AA programs are put in place by the govt and educational agencies. I know a lot of white ppl who see this as reverse discrimination and they file lawsuits and eventually get AA laws overturned at different agencies. So not only do blk ppl have to combat the racism in many facets of life, they also get breaks taken away from them because some ppl see it as discrimination. I guess it doesnt feel that great to those ppl who file law suites to be on the other side of the grass for once...once...just once. Why dont blk ppl file lawsuits against the people who discriminate against them you ask...well.. because most of this discrimination comes from places where it cant be accounted for, because data isnt kept up, or at home loan companies, private businesses that can do as they please, its their company and it doesnt regard hiring practices, that also might not be accounted for. AA is set in by the government and therefore must adhere to the constitution and you know the rest. Ok I'm finished for now. Let me know what you all think. Thanx

riceman04 · Jul 19, 2005

IkeBoy18 said:
Forgive me if this thread has been started somewhere else already; if it is I didn't see it and would appreciate someone linking me.

I wanted to know everyones opinion regarding some med schools using AA in their admissions process. For/Against..why? etc...

IMO I do understand that there have been some studies concluding that ppl receive better healthcare from a physician of the same race. This is understandable concept to digest. Im going to speak about the possible reasoning behind AA for Black americans, as I am black/korean.

Not to toot and old horn but it all starts with slavery. It wasn't that long ago when slavery hindered black americans from any type of education, with death being a consequence of something as petty as learning how to read. Not too long after that blacks had to cope with segregated schools with whatever teachers they could find, whom probably werent that qualified and outdated resources if any. Then came B vs BOE. Sure some desegregation went on but it wasnt smooth. This left black students trying to learn in a very hostile environment, as can be imagined from expereinces of the Little Rock 7, that also was not an isolated event. In the present time, it can be concluded from statistics that educational segregation still does exist through housing segregation. Every neighborhood in the nation that isn't majority minority is >1% black. Probably has a lot to do with the statistics regarding rejections for mortgage loans. 20% of blacks get denied overall home loans; only 10% for whites when credit and income are controlled. Many of these disparities arise in the housing industry. Basically keeping white neighborhoods white and black neighborhoods black. It isn't a big secret that better resources are available in school districts who get more tax money from their residents. It also isnt a secret the avg. black household make almost half of what avg white households make. Nothing else needs to be said there. The point is, even today, it is still hard to for black ppl to get to areas with better resources.Not saying that this is the main problem, its just one of the many. As I was saying about the income, whites almost double blacks. There isnt enough money in an avg black home to get tutoring, and other resources such as a computer, learning materials when young, books, even proper medical care to diagnose a learning disorder early. One cant help what situation they were born into. Especially when it is not a consequence of their own doing. The educational/slavery thing, compare it to this: The govt forcefully stops a sprinter from training, never to walk more than a snails pace, for years. Then down the road force them to compete with everyone else who have been able to carry out their own will. Can you expect that sprinter to compete at the same level as the others who have been training the whole time? This is where affirmative action comes in. But I see AA, in any aspect, has been a lose-lose proposition for black ppl. The counteract the many acts of discrimination in the past and present, AA programs are put in place by the govt and educational agencies. I know a lot of white ppl who see this as reverse discrimination and they file lawsuits and eventually get AA laws overturned at different agencies. So not only do blk ppl have to combat the racism in many facets of life, they also get breaks taken away from them because some ppl see it as discrimination. I guess it doesnt feel that great to those ppl who file law suites to be on the other side of the grass for once...once...just once. Why dont blk ppl file lawsuits against the people who discriminate against them you ask...well.. because most of this discrimination comes from places where it cant be accounted for, because data isnt kept up, or at home loan companies, private businesses that can do as they please, its their company and it doesnt regard hiring practices, that also might not be accounted for. AA is set in by the government and therefore must adhere to the constitution and you know the rest. Ok I'm finished for now. Let me know what you all think. Thanx

dawg I am Afr. amer too (and I also support aa in healthcare), but please do not re-introduce this topic to the forum. It is nothing more than a detriment to sdn and an argument starter.
Just watch, you will get many unpleasant responses that are very frustrating and upsetting.

Sundarban1 · Jul 19, 2005

Score update:

Troll:1

Pre-meds: 0

Shredder · Jul 19, 2005

AAs useless, you werent slaves, your parents werent slaves. how far are we to extend reparations to descendants of the actual victims? in fact, ill go out on a limb by saying (from a book i read) that if it werent for slavery, you would still be in africa. im serious too, so tell me if that is what you would prefer. bc if that is what jesse jackson and al sharpton started pushing for, i think the american government would agree to provide free transportation.

its time you had some pride and worked to have AA shot down so that you can get in on your own merits. i know i would if it applied to indians and asians, it would be shameful. and why doesnt apply to them, theyre minorities as well? AA breeds racism. MLK himself even said, dont judge based on color of skin but content of character/app.

Patrick Chavis, poster boy of AA

1Path · Jul 19, 2005

Shredder said:
in fact, ill go out on a limb by saying (from a book i read) that if it werent for slavery, you would still be in africa.

An overwhelming majority of blacks in this country are of mixed races. So exactly what "part" of blacks would you recommend sending back to Africa?

hardy · Jul 19, 2005

My opinion:
AA that reserves a certain percentage of spots for certain groups = okay
AA that lowers admission standards to forcefully fill those spots = bad

Shredder · Jul 19, 2005

riceman04 said:
dawg I am Afr. amer too (and I also support aa in healthcare), but please do not re-introduce this topic to the forum. It is nothing more than a detriment to sdn and an argument starter.
Just watch, you will get many unpleasant responses that are very frustrating and upsetting.

and from who? these are future classmates and future colleagues. so its obvious that these are the feelings that AA generates among a sizeable number of arguably intelligent people. or is it better to sweep that under the rug instead of bringing it out in the open? i think there should be an AA sticky, so that people can always see how others really feel about it, with political correctness removed from the equation. or is everybody on that side a bigoted racist, and the entire republican party as well?

1Path said:
An overwhelming majority of blacks in this country are of mixed races. So exactly what "part" of blacks would you recommend sending back to Africa?

is that so?

hardy said:
My opinion:
AA that reserves a certain percentage of spots for certain groups = okay
AA that lowers admission standards to forcefully fill those spots = bad

impossible--what if there are not enough qualified people to fill those spots, as there inevitably will not be at some point along the chain of schools. admissions is a zero sum game, every seat taken by one person is one less seat for another.

hardy · Jul 19, 2005

Shredder said:
impossible--

Exactly

ernieraisin · Jul 19, 2005

i volunteered at a homeless shelter tutoring children in east harlem (NYC) for a year. the kids there were predominantly black and hispanic kids. these kids simply did not have anything. for goodness sake, they didnt even have a stable home! and yet, some of the kids were determined to get out the housing, graduate high school and go onto college. they didnt have the resources that we all sometimes take for granted. how many of us took prep courses for ths SATs? how many of us had a decent house/apartment from where we could study? they were struggling to get accepted to a college...i doubt many were even thinking as far as med schools. by working with these kids, i realized that these kids need a chance to prove themselves in society. and the only way was through affirmative action. their grades were sub-par and who could blame them? they have bigger worries than the next history exam.

is AA 100% foolproof? of course not. just like ANYTHING in life, there will be those who take advantage of it and those who look down upon it. but unless youve witnessed what some of these kids go through, lets not throw stones. do kids who get in trough AA gain that much? they still have to prove themselves when they get into med schools. after all, we all have to pass some cutoff grade on our boards.

my opinion is that AAs can be a very good thing as it gives disadvantaged kids a chance. why should education be a privilege?

by the way, i am korean.

Psycho Doctor · Jul 19, 2005

AA for socioeconomic reasons is great; AA because you happen to be black is discrimination and promotes racism. Why should a black person who comes from a wealthy family and has had every advantage possible be given priority in admissions? What about the poor white person who was abused and abandonned by his family...what does he get? How is that fair????

lil pook · Jul 19, 2005

oh gawd...as if this tired, old topic hasn't been beaten like an old horse..

PULEEEESE!!!!!!!!!!

hardy · Jul 19, 2005

ernieraisin said:
my opinion is that AAs can be a very good thing as it gives disadvantaged kids a chance. why should education be a privilege?

Education is a privilege. Persons from any race and socioeconomic strata can be disadvantaged in getting education. Do you know how many people (black, white, hispanic, and others) don't go to college because they can't afford it, even with grants they qualify for?

Education is a privilege which not everbody can get. Why should we lower admission standards if we can't even make sure everybody who wants to can go to college?

Reserving spots for certain groups since it makes sense that we should try to, for example, train black doctors in an amount equal to their representation in the general population. Lowering the standards for those groups is wrong, though. It would go against the comeptitive nature of our society. (Unless we create new medical licenses that restrict you to treat people from your own group, then we could create group dependent admission standards. Obviously, this idea is very fallible).

And yes, this topic has been beaten to death. Like almost any other topic on SDN. The board operates on a 2-4 week cycle and topics are brought up about once per cycle, even if they have been beat to death.

mynamewastaken · Jul 19, 2005

When your ancestors were slaves, mine were masons in Calabria, Italy. If we're gonna take into account what happened over 150 years ago because that's fair and relevant, then i'm (using your logic) off the hook!

Equality does NOT mean compensation. It is not possible for a society (or one race for that matter) to pick and choose when and where they want to be considered equals and when they want to (as AA inherently implies and perpetuates) be considered in need of help because they ARE NOT equal. Saying "we're all equal, but we deserve extra help" is not a reasonable or logical statement. One contradicts the other. If someone of any race gets into medical school based on credentials then no problem. There is no room in a field such as medicine for lowering credentials. Next time you book a flight try buting a ticket on "Affirmative Action Airlines" where all the pilots were accepted to flight schools based on lowered standards because of the color of their skin...

visualwealth · Jul 19, 2005

HA Another AA thread... I dont get it!! Every time we debate this issue pro-AA people win every single time! Why you may ask?? Because we are smarter and more realistic... :laugh:

So to make a long story short!

In medicine it has been proven that ones GPA and mcat score does not correlate to A) the quality of doctor they will become and, B) the quality of researcher they will become...

Thus, medical schools consider other factors... If AA were to be canceled we would have to have an admissions policy similar to Canada and everywhere else in the world... That is, it would have to be based solely on stats thus, no 3.7 no 33 don't even apply... My questions is, why are there so many white people and ORMS at top ten schools between the 28 an 33 range??... That is, if standards are so high for them should they not have to score 35+...

It is obvious that these white people (and orms) are benefiting from the other factors that are being considered... So instead of being racist and jealous lol :laugh:

why dont you waste your time hating on these people!!!

And a personal message to shredder... Why dont you go back to India if it is so great over there lol... Let me guess??? b/c a doc over there make peanuts compared to a doc in America

Psycho Doctor · Jul 19, 2005

visualwealth said:
HA Another AA thread... I dont get it!! Every time we debate this issue pro-AA people win every single time! Why you may ask?? Because we are smarter and more realistic...

So to make a long story short!

In medicine it has been proven that ones GPA and mcat score does not correlate to A) the quality of doctor they will become and, B) the quality of researcher they will become...

Thus, medical schools consider other factors... If AA were to be canceled we would have to have an admissions policy similar to Canada and everywhere else in the world... That is, it would have to be based solely on stats thus, no 3.7 no 33 don't even apply... My questions is, why are there so many white people and ORMS at top ten schools between the 28 an 33 range??... That is, if standards are so high for them should they not have to score 35+...

It is obvious that these white people (and orms) are benefiting from the other factors that are being considered... So instead of being racist and jealous lol why dont you waste your time hating on these people!!!

And a personal message to shredder... Why dont you go back to India if it is so great over there lol... Let me guess??? b/c a doc over there make peanuts compared to a doc in America

That was probably the poorest argument for AA I've ever seen. Pro-AA people only win because AA is nere now and probably here to stay until the government comes to their senses. Obviously other factors are taken into consideration to evaluate that they will make a good doctor and therefore worthy of taking into medical school. I never realized that race was one of those factors.

The only way ican see that coming into play is if a patient wanted somweone of their own race treating them. Butr hey wouldn't it be called racist if a white patient refused treatment from a black doctor?

Why is the double standard acceptable????

But as someone else suggested shouild these minority doctors sign a waver saying they will treat in underpriviledged/minority areas?? Thats' ridiculous...well about as ridiculous as AA is when it is based on color of one's skin.

hardy · Jul 19, 2005

visualwealth said:
In medicine it has been proven that ones GPA and mcat score does not correlate to A) the quality of doctor they will become and, B) the quality of researcher they will become...

I wonder how you can prove something like this. You can prove a theorem in mathematics, but you cannot prove anything in biology/medicine/sociology. You can only support or not support a theory. Of course, if there is enough support it becomes generally accepted, however, it is not proven.

Why don't you supply us with some references? Just stating something like this does not really contribute anything.

visualwealth said:
Thus, medical schools consider other factors... If AA were to be canceled we would have to have an admissions policy similar to Canada and everywhere else in the world... That is, it would have to be based solely on stats thus, no 3.7 no 33 don't even apply... My questions is, why are there so many white people and ORMS at top ten schools between the 28 an 33 range??... That is, if standards are so high for them should they not have to score 35+...

Medical schools take into account the whole package. If AA were to be canceled then medical schools would still take into account the whole package: Stats, ECs, motivation etc.
What AA does is discount those things and simply focus on one thing: Race

How you jump to the conclusion that if we would not have AA medical school admission would only be based on stats is not quite clear to me.

allthaticanbe · Jul 19, 2005

As a black person (from Canada) I strongly look down on AA for race. I am not a disadvantage due to my family income. My family makes a great amount of money a little bit more then high middle class, I live in a great area, go to a great school and my school is very mixed with different races all in the same sistuation. Does a person of minority in the US who is living in the same conditions deserve AA, I think not.

Let forget the steortypes that all minorities are poor and that all white people are rich because even if their is a large percentage like this that isn't the case for everyone. Should a white student who comes from a low income family suffer due to being born in the wrong race?

Chrissy · Jul 19, 2005

"Thus, medical schools consider other factors... If AA were to be canceled we would have to have an admissions policy similar to Canada and everywhere else in the world..."

"other factors" i assume means including race.

AA cancelled i assume means race not considered.

Reference to Canadian process i assume means ONLY numbers considered nothing else.

You are implying (or flat out saying) that race and skin color are "other factors" in the US....that they should be taken into account along with EC's when looking at the whole applicant and considred in an admissions decision....that is EXACTLY the point. The debate is whether or not they should be considered. You believe it should, i believe it should not. The reference to Canada is just not accurate because you are equivocating factors besides numbers (i.e. ec's) with race. Those examples are mutually exclusive.

If you are going to argue that EC's and work and volunteer experience are equally relevant to an adcom decision as race I believe you have a very difficult task.

My questions is, why are there so many white people and ORMS at top ten schools between the 28 an 33 range??... That is, if standards are so high for them should they not have to score 35+...

It is obvious that these white people (and orms) are benefiting from the other factors that are being considered... So instead of being racist and jealous lol :laugh:

why dont you waste your time hating on these people!!!

And a personal message to shredder... Why dont you go back to India if it is so great over there lol... Let me guess??? b/c a doc over there make peanuts compared to a doc in America[/QUOTE]

Chrissy · Jul 19, 2005

well said Hardy

Psycho Doctor · Jul 19, 2005

allthaticanbe said:
As a black person (from Canada) I strongly look down on AA for race. I am not a disadvantage due to my family income. My family makes a great amount of money a little bit more then high middle class, I live in a great area, go to a great school and my school is very mixed with different races all in the same sistuation. Does a person of minority in the US who is living in the same conditions deserve AA, I think not.

Let forget the steortypes that all minorities are poor and that all white people are rich because even if their is a large percentage like this that isn't the case for everyone. Should a white student who comes from a low income family suffer due to being born in the wrong race?

that's exactly the point but coming from a black person, it shows more conviction. AA should be for socioeconomic reasons and never ever for race.

visualwealth · Jul 19, 2005

Well it can be assumed that the rich minorities that slip through the cracks of AA would have gotten in anyway If they are rich then, they are already at the best schools and, can obviously afford all the privileges that wealth brings The real debate is, should race be considered as one of the factors?? The answer is yes!! Why?? Because, race is a factor in medicine and it is a factor in society. As long as we live in a society where one can assume 1 million things (mostly negative) about someone based on their race alone it will continue to be a factor

Now instead of trying to cancel opportunities granted to few(very very very very very few) minorities, why dont you use your energy to erase racism in society.

hardy · Jul 19, 2005

visualwealth said:
Now instead of trying to cancel opportunities granted to few(very very very very very few) minorities, why dont you use your energy to erase racism in society.

In case you have not noticed, affirmative action is a major cause for prevalent racism in the white middle class.

And racism cannot be erased from today's society. Heck, we already spent $180 billions on the war against terrorism trying to eliminate racism against the white christians *. Racism is pretty much here to stay in a small part of society. You will always find somebody who does not like the black, white, red, hispanic, green, and blue. We just have to try and keep the numbers as small as possible. That's the best we can do.

Oh, and I still would be interested to see the references for the point in your earlier post.

*: Just trying to hold true to my title

Chrissy · Jul 19, 2005

Racism- Any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment, or exercise, on equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural, or any other field of public life.

"The real debate is, should race be considered as one of the factors?? The answer is yes!!"

"why dont you use your energy to erase racism in society."

so which one is it?....it can't be both

Psycho Doctor · Jul 19, 2005

Chrissy said:
Racism- Any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment, or exercise, on equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural, or any other field of public life.

"The real debate is, should race be considered as one of the factors?? The answer is yes!!"

"why dont you use your energy to erase racism in society."

so which one is it?....it can't be both

Great post Chrissy, that's the absolute truth. I can not see how those controlling the governement can't see it? How stupid are they????

visualwealth · Jul 19, 2005

Quit trying to use semantics in a very very very straight forward issue AA is here to stay! There are very smart people (adcoms) who have decided that indeed, diversity is necessary.

It is sad that some of the women on there are against AA when they received it and continue to receive it. Pathetic and disgraceful!

allthaticanbe · Jul 19, 2005

visualwealth said:
Well it can be assumed that the rich minorities that slip through the cracks of AA would have gotten in anyway If they are rich then, they are already at the best schools and, can obviously afford all the privileges that wealth brings The real debate is, should race be considered as one of the factors?? The answer is yes!! Why?? Because, race is a factor in medicine and it is a factor in society. As long as we live in a society where one can assume 1 million things (mostly negative) about someone based on their race alone it will continue to be a factor

Now instead of trying to cancel opportunities granted to few(very very very very very few) minorities, why dont you use your energy to erase racism in society.

You base your response on wealth saying that many minorities are below the average yearly income. Therefore if it were base on income I trully don't see the issue.

And note AA just racist and it feeds the steortype that minorites are dumb, lazy and will never be equal to white people (note not just rich white people all white people). As a black person I believe that false a person of minority(really anyone) can do anything they set their mind to, even if their is several barriers. Therefore it should be based something other then race.

hardy · Jul 19, 2005

visualwealth said:
Quit trying to use semantics in a very very very straight forward issue AA is here to stay! There are very smart people (adcoms) who have decided that indeed, diversity is necessary.

It is sad that some of the women on there are against AA when they received it and continue to receive it. Pathetic and disgraceful!

It is not the adcoms who decided this, it was the government. And if you want to tell me that these people were smart: There were also very smart people in the government who decided it was right to go to Africa and take people with them to America and use them as slaves. Just because something is current practice does not mean it is right.

And you sure seem to "win" this argument :laugh:

allthaticanbe · Jul 19, 2005

Hardy well said!!

visualwealth · Jul 19, 2005

hardy said:
It is not the adcoms who decided this, it was the government. And if you want to tell me that these people were smart: There were also very smart people in the government who decided it was right to go to Africa and take people with them to America and use them as slaves. Just because something is current practice does not mean it is right.

And you sure seem to "win" this argument

adcoms decide who to admit into a school not the government... There are many schools that have zero diversity.

And yes I am winning the debate...

..

Nothing left to say except I am right and you and the others are wrong wrong wrong...

hardy · Jul 19, 2005

visualwealth said:
adcoms decide who to admit into a school not the government... There are many schools that have zero diversity.

Affirmative action is a legislative/judicial decision. Schools can either implement affirmative action or wait to get sued. If there are indeed schools with zero diversity, then there just hasn't been anybody who sued them, yet. And I would be interested what schools really have zero diversity...

visualwealth said:
And yes I am winning the debate... ..

Nothing left to say except I am right and you and the others are wrong wrong wrong...

Uh??? yeah. Do you want a cookie?

rugirlie · Jul 19, 2005

allthaticanbe said:
As a black person (from Canada) I strongly look down on AA for race. I am not a disadvantage due to my family income. My family makes a great amount of money a little bit more then high middle class, I live in a great area, go to a great school and my school is very mixed with different races all in the same sistuation. Does a person of minority in the US who is living in the same conditions deserve AA, I think not.

Let forget the steortypes that all minorities are poor and that all white people are rich because even if their is a large percentage like this that isn't the case for everyone. Should a white student who comes from a low income family suffer due to being born in the wrong race?

And as said previously, doesn't it bother you pro-AA minorities that AA is perpetuating inequality between the races and making a statement that minorities are not as smart as other races.... and what about all of you minorities that do have the credentials to back up your admissions... it must surely piss you off that people automatically assume you only got in based on your race... at least with AA based on socioeconomic status, people would not be able to tell simply by looking at a person who got a leg up in the admissions process and so less stigma would be attached to AA... just a thought.

Chrissy · Jul 19, 2005

VisualWealth: Sadly, you are very naive. Your last post compliments your worldview very nicely. I QUOTE you as contradicting yourself. I did not say what you said. You said it; and yet you accuse me of semantics on a straight forward issue instead of 1)explaining yourself or 2) proving me wrong. The funny thing is i would gladly agree with you if what you were saying (and the overall premise for AA) was resonable and logical, but it simply is not. I believe very deeply that all people should have the same opportunities and skin color or country of origin is absolutely irrelevant. In my opinion, however, AA simply perpetuates this dilemma in a cyclical and hypocritical manner. Expecting the majority groups in America to agree to this type of compensation for past oppression that none of us were even a part of is foolish and naive.

For the sake of empathy and good spirit, please explain to me how distinguishing people by race, as in AA, is justifiable, socially responsible, and different than racism against say African Americans. So racism is ok as long as it's no longer blacks taking the brunt?

Your philosophy is two wrongs DO make a right. I think you have profoundly overestimated the effectiveness of such an approach.

And additionally, the issue of adcoms being smart and adhering to AA policies is an interesting example of political science at work. Accepting 15 underrepresented minorities with slightly lower credentials (which is universally a trend of fact) agreeably does not lower the overall standards of the school. THIS issue does NOT mean the practice is conceptually fair. It's only when looking at the individual statistics of students broken down by race, that we see such a dramatic discrepancy between white and black students. On a case by case basis, which is what AA is apparently about, this is wrong and discriminatory.

Chrissy · Jul 19, 2005

VisualWealth:

What are the names of the schools with zero diversity? just curious.

Oh, and YES.....we all already know AA exists which is all you are arguing over and over and over. You truly are winning that debate! It's proving it's effectiveness and social justification that you are failing miserably.

IgweEmeka · Jul 19, 2005

allthaticanbe said:
You base your response on wealth saying that many minorities are below the average yearly income. Therefore if it were base on income I trully don't see the issue.

And note AA just racist and it feeds the steortype that minorites are dumb, lazy and will never be equal to white people (note not just rich white people all white people). As a black person I believe that false a person of minority(really anyone) can do anything they set their mind to, even if their is several barriers. Therefore it should be based something other then race.

Alright, I promised myself I was not going to post anything, but I just had to reply to this post.
Mr. allthaticanbe, you of all people should be able to observe the necessity of race in admissions to medical school. I mean you claim you are as rich as the white people and you are black. Granted there are always anomalies(to make an omelet, you have to break an egg), but the truth is that in the U.S. african americans make a tremendous percentage of the poorest peoplein the country and most african americans are poor.
And in response to you can do anything you want if you put your mind to it regardless of barriers, alright that is just plain stupid. Barriers innercity kids face against their rich white counterparts are too hard to overcome regardless of motivation. If you have to work to support yourself and your siblings as well as study for the mcat and take community colllege courses while Jimmy in surburbia is coming home to a healthy cooked meal and has a laptop computer inhis room he used to surf SDN and his parents have enrolled him in a princeton review course, who is going to most likely come out on top?
Those may be extreme cases to you, but it is reality.

IgweEmeka · Jul 19, 2005

rugirlie said:
And as said previously, doesn't it bother you pro-AA minorities that AA is perpetuating inequality between the races and making a statement that minorities are not as smart as other races.... and what about all of you minorities that do have the credentials to back up your admissions... it must surely piss you off that people automatically assume you only got in based on your race... at least with AA based on socioeconomic status, people would not be able to tell simply by looking at a person who got a leg up in the admissions process and so less stigma would be attached to AA... just a thought.

Actually as an African American who is getting in on his merit, I could care less if people think i got in on merit or not, my grades and success in med school would show for itself. I hope to be joined by my fellow african americans who may not necessarity be up to par, so that I can help out anyway i can to make them good and smarter doctors. Also, do you know of Dr. Ben Carson, read his biography. He wasnt the smartest of the bunch, but he sure came out on top.

hardy · Jul 19, 2005

IgweEmeka said:
If you have to work to support yourself and your siblings as well as study for the mcat and take community colllege courses while Jimmy in surburbia is coming home to a healthy cooked meal and has a laptop computer inhis room he used to surf SDN and his parents have enrolled him in a princeton review course, who is going to most likely come out on top?
Those may be extreme cases to you, but it is reality.

Yes, that is a socioeconomic problem, not a racial one.
You want more grants (which exist, although not enough) for the poor, innercity kid ? I am all for it. You want free MCAT prep courses (which exist for minorities) for them? I am all for it. Give them all the opportunities to do well. But in the end, they have to adhere to the same standards.

Sundarban1 · Jul 19, 2005

Updated score count:

Disgruntled pre-med on 2 waitlists who thinks all minorities have taken his/her spot in medical school so he/she starts a flame war on a public forum: 35

Pre-meds who feed trolls and beat dead horses: 0

Psycho Doctor · Jul 19, 2005

visualwealth said:
Well it can be assumed that the rich minorities that slip through the cracks of AA would have gotten in anyway If they are rich then, they are already at the best schools and, can obviously afford all the privileges that wealth brings The real debate is, should race be considered as one of the factors?? The answer is yes!! Why?? Because, race is a factor in medicine and it is a factor in society. As long as we live in a society where one can assume 1 million things (mostly negative) about someone based on their race alone it will continue to be a factor

Now instead of trying to cancel opportunities granted to few(very very very very very few) minorities, why dont you use your energy to erase racism in society.

wow, you don't have the basis of an argument. AA causes racism, so you need to get rid of it to get rid of racism.

Psycho Doctor · Jul 19, 2005

allthaticanbe said:
You base your response on wealth saying that many minorities are below the average yearly income. Therefore if it were base on income I trully don't see the issue.

And note AA just racist and it feeds the steortype that minorites are dumb, lazy and will never be equal to white people (note not just rich white people all white people). As a black person I believe that false a person of minority(really anyone) can do anything they set their mind to, even if their is several barriers. Therefore it should be based something other then race.

you continue to make great points!

Chrissy · Jul 19, 2005

IgweEmeka said:
Alright, I promised myself I was not going to post anything, but I just had to reply to this post.
Mr. allthaticanbe, you of all people should be able to observe the necessity of race in admissions to medical school. I mean you claim you are as rich as the white people and you are black. Granted there are always anomalies(to make an omelet, you have to break an egg), but the truth is that in the U.S. african americans make a tremendous percentage of the poorest peoplein the country and most african americans are poor.
And in response to you can do anything you want if you put your mind to it regardless of barriers, alright that is just plain stupid. Barriers innercity kids face against their rich white counterparts are too hard to overcome regardless of motivation. If you have to work to support yourself and your siblings as well as study for the mcat and take community colllege courses while Jimmy in surburbia is coming home to a healthy cooked meal and has a laptop computer inhis room he used to surf SDN and his parents have enrolled him in a princeton review course, who is going to most likely come out on top?
Those may be extreme cases to you, but it is reality.

Good post. I agree actually. The most realistic (not the most right or important!) issue however, is the likely causes and outcomes of these situations. Once a policy (like AA) starts taking anything away from a majority group (i.e. the princeton white kid gets rejected while the african amer. from city college gets in with lower gpa and mcat) it IS GOING TO make the majority angry..THIS ALSO PERPETUATES RACISM....it IS NOT REALISTIC to take something away from one group of people in order to give it to a smaller group and say we're creating equality...because that is not equality. That is affirmative action. It is compensation.

"If you have to work to support yourself and your siblings as well as study for the mcat and take community colllege courses..."

why doesn't Jimmy in Suburbia have to work to support himself and his siblings?

In my opinion, the conceptual problem behind racism is much different than it's likely solution. I really really believe that anyone who thinks taking from the rich to give to the poor in an effort to balance and equate, is profoundly ignorant. It is much more likely, tangible, and sustainable if the effort goes to identifying and addressing the problems within inner cities, and ealing with them at hand. Involving the majority in a minorities plight is historically asking for trouble. That has proven time and time again. Maybe it's not right but it's real.

rugirlie · Jul 19, 2005

IgweEmeka said:
Actually as an African American who is getting in on his merit, I could care less if people think i got in on merit or not, my grades and success in med school would show for itself. I hope to be joined by my fellow african americans who may not necessarity be up to par, so that I can help out anyway i can to make them good and smarter doctors. Also, do you know of Dr. Ben Carson, read his biography. He wasnt the smartest of the bunch, but he sure came out on top.

First of all, in the post above this one, you failed to recognize allicanbe's point... he was saying that if you base AA on socioeconomic status and not race, than these poorer people would still be helped in the same way except it would take race and the discrimination factor out of the equation...poor everyone would get helped... black, white, hispanic, indian, asain, etc... how can you argue against this as being a better AA method than strictly based on race?

Second of all, I never argued that people with poor stats who got into med school won't succeed. I have no doubt that Dr. Ben Carson as well as plenty other "not the smarterst of the bunch" people are success stories.. that is not the argument here.

allthaticanbe · Jul 19, 2005

IgweEmeka said:
Alright, I promised myself I was not going to post anything, but I just had to reply to this post.
Mr. allthaticanbe, you of all people should be able to observe the necessity of race in admissions to medical school. I mean you claim you are as rich as the white people and you are black. Granted there are always anomalies(to make an omelet, you have to break an egg), but the truth is that in the U.S. african americans make a tremendous percentage of the poorest peoplein the country and most african americans are poor.
And in response to you can do anything you want if you put your mind to it regardless of barriers, alright that is just plain stupid. Barriers innercity kids face against their rich white counterparts are too hard to overcome regardless of motivation. If you have to work to support yourself and your siblings as well as study for the mcat and take community colllege courses while Jimmy in surburbia is coming home to a healthy cooked meal and has a laptop computer inhis room he used to surf SDN and his parents have enrolled him in a princeton review course, who is going to most likely come out on top?
Those may be extreme cases to you, but it is reality.

Your response on a innercity kids having to support their family is true, I must agree with you and they are not extreme case to me I understand they are reality. However this reality does not only exist for the people of "visible" minority, there are white people out their who have this as reality. And if you would have clearly read my arguments from before you would have seen that I would like AA to be based on income therefore that "innercity" kid would still recieve AA.

Also note I don't believe that my statement about achieving goals regardless of barrier is stupid, My parents did it they did not come from a "rich" family and no it wasn't thanks to AA seeing as how I'm in the beautiful country north of you.

Note is Ms.Allthaticanbe lol

pagemmapants · Jul 19, 2005

Having to work to help to support your family or yourself through high school and college is not a plight restricted to minorities. Growing up in a small town in Washington, I have been witness to quite a lot of poverty - Native Americans, Mexicans, African-Americans, and Caucasians alike - and dark skin is certainly not a requirement for living in the projects or getting shot in a gang war or having the brains but not the opportunity to get somewhere.

In an ideal world, entrance to both college and professional schools would be based strictly on merit. Unfortunately, as we can all agree, not everyone has the same set of opportunities or the same amount of time/money/other resources to dedicate to studies/volunteer work/clubs. However, attempts to "equalize" this discrepancy via racial distinctions do not take into account two populations; the privileged minorities and the poverty-stricken whites.

IMHO, a system of AA based on socioeconomic status, rather than racial categorization, would do far more to alleviate this discrepancy without inflaming the sensibilities of both pro- and anti- AA parties.

Psycho Doctor · Jul 19, 2005

hardy said:
Yes, that is a socioeconomic problem, not a racial one.
You want more grants (which exist, although not enough) for the poor, innercity kid ? I am all for it. You want free MCAT prep courses (which exist for minorities) for them? I am all for it. Give them all the opportunities to do well. But in the end, they have to adhere to the same standards.

Exactly! This country's approach is all wrong; we need to fix the problem, not make excuses and then give them a boost because they didn't fix it. Educate the low socioeconomic groups (of ALL colors!!), give them free access to materials and classes; inform them of the benefits of a good education and taking advantage of these opportunities. Once they have the opportunities judge them on the same scale as the rest of the country. amazing how fast racism, will disappear.

redclover · Jul 19, 2005

IgweEmeka said:
Actually as an African American who is getting in on his merit, I could care less if people think i got in on merit or not, my grades and success in med school would show for itself. I hope to be joined by my fellow african americans who may not necessarity be up to par, so that I can help out anyway i can to make them good and smarter doctors. Also, do you know of Dr. Ben Carson, read his biography. He wasnt the smartest of the bunch, but he sure came out on top.

Ben Carson is amazing. I heard him speak and read his novels. I couldn't agree with you more. There are many brilliant minority students, and I feel sorry for them because once they are physicians/researchers people will look at them and be like oh, he must not be qualified because he got here due to AA. I think AA may have been appropriate before, but now it seems more detrimental than beneficial. socioeconomic AA seems more useful to me. as for health disparities between races, yes they exist, but again for socioeconomic reasons. i dont know about you, but i would go to the best doctor regardless of his race, so i think the whole "lets train black doctors because they will end the disparities" argument is flawed. the real issue is that many blacks are in the lower economic brackets and cannot afford healthy lifestyles/are not educated about healthcare

I hope bush's new appointment to the supreme court will help overturn this unfair practice.

Psycho Doctor · Jul 19, 2005

Sundarban1 said:
Updated score count:

Disgruntled pre-med on 2 waitlists who thinks all minorities have taken his/her spot in medical school so he/she starts a flame war on a public forum: 35

Pre-meds who feed trolls and beat dead horses: 0

that's ridiculous, i got into plenty of med schools and do not feel any minority took my spot. However I see the system for what it is; I am not blinded by my own personal needs.

rugirlie · Jul 19, 2005

redclover said:
I hope bush's new appointment to the supreme court will help overturn this unfair practice.

That's a laugh!

Psycho Doctor · Jul 19, 2005

redclover said:
Ben Carson is amazing. I heard him speak and read his novels. I couldn't agree with you more. There are many brilliant minority students, and I feel sorry for them because once they are physicians/researchers people will look at them and be like oh, he must not be qualified because he got here due to AA. I think AA may have been appropriate before, but now it seems more detrimental than beneficial. socioeconomic AA seems more useful to me. as for health disparities between races, yes they exist, but again for socioeconomic reasons. i dont know about you, but i would go to the best doctor regardless of his race, so i think the whole "lets train black doctors because they will end the disparities" argument is flawed. the real issue is that many blacks are in the lower economic brackets and cannot afford healthy lifestyles/are not educated about healthcare

I hope bush's new appointment to the supreme court will help overturn this unfair practice.

i agree; I think in some ways it hurts the minorities more; well at least those who got in on their own merit; One will just look at their skin color and assumed it was due to AA...yea AA creates racism and I don't se ehow anyone doesn't see that.

63768 · Jul 19, 2005

ahhh good old AA.

in my opinion, AA is simply reverse discrimination. let's let virtually all black, hispanic, native american, and other URMs into medical school because of their race. y'all are in no way disadvantaged. just because your great great great great great parents were enslaved does not mean you get a free ticket to medical school. i don't hate any of these races; i just don't see how a hispanic girl with a 3.5GPA, a 30MCAT, non-exceptional ECs can get into harvard, yale, stanford, and plenty of other top-tiered schools.

this system was started with good intentions but it's just wrong now.

i am technically like all these kids AA is supposed to support. i'm vietnamese and i had to pay for my own tuition to rice university, support my family with a 32hr/wk job that i had to work while attending school full-time. i don't see why i am actually looked down upon for med school admissions because i'm lumped into asian.

cliffnotes: AA is pure bs and i will always be resentful of those people who are let in because of AA, regardless of whether they are amazing doctors or not.

visualwealth · Jul 19, 2005

rugirlie said:
That's a laugh!

first of all for someone at a top 5 school with a 30 mcat you are very cocky!!

Like I have said and will continue to say... AA is right and, it recruits qualified minorities... AA might give minorites a slight advantage but, in the end there are whites getting similar advantages... look at the old boy system that existed and still exists at many schools, without AA and the value put upon diversity many overly qualified URMs will be passed up...

finally, unlike other minorities (ORM's)who have been hyped by whites to be "geniuses" with great skills to help america... URMS have to face many negative sterotypes that hurt them in all aspects of academia ...

To put it plainly without AA there would still be discrimination in hiring and admission to medical school etc. Thus, society is better off with AA than without it.

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