Affirmative Action - Med School Admis.

[hardy]

Like I have said and will continue to say... AA is right and, it recruits qualified minorities...

If you say so that must be true. All this critical thinking they have taught me in school is bull anyway. Don't mind about the references I asked you to provide, you must know.

Still want a cookie?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[riceman04]

and from who? these are future classmates and future colleagues. so its obvious that these are the feelings that AA generates among a sizeable number of arguably intelligent people. or is it better to sweep that under the rug instead of bringing it out in the open? i think there should be an AA sticky, so that people can always see how others really feel about it, with political correctness removed from the equation. or is everybody on that side a bigoted racist, and the entire republican party as well?

is that so?

impossible--what if there are not enough qualified people to fill those spots, as there inevitably will not be at some point along the chain of schools. admissions is a zero sum game, every seat taken by one person is one less seat for another.

Ok, so just re-read the bull**** statement you made earlier and then you will see why I hate for this topic to be re-introduced. There is nothing worse than a pseudo bigot like yourself trying to pose as a fair individual who "honestly" loathes AA. Please UT, I was accepted into Rice based on my own merit and I am sure I will be accepted into a med. school based on my own merit.
And where the hell do you get off thinking that my people are being given reparations for the past unjustices that took place. You know, I now believe it when people say "I really do not know what goes on in today's world outside my own litte utopia in Beverly Hills." If everything is sooooooooooo fair and equal now, why was I consistently getting profiled as a criminal while a student at Rice, despite never causing any trouble or having a criminal record for that matter? Why do the majority of the priviledged still have such a bias about the intent of black person standing behind or next to them in a line (watch your parents reaction when a afr. amer male comes around. That's right........ suspicion). I have to work twice as hard just to ensure that I succeed despite all that has happened (to me) and all that has been assumed about me (b/c of my skin color). Hell, even though I know I have been contributing to this society, sometimes it makes me feel (and many other afr amer.) like I am nothing more than a detriment and a charity case.

Too assume that today's society has made so much progress towards equality is to suggest naievity. Yes, no one can deny that certain freedoms are now obviously applied to all. But the fact remains that this society's current existence is still predicated on inequalities, biases, and, to an extent, racism.
You have to understand that something so horrendous as slavery and discrimination will never just be swept under the rug like it never happened. There is no way one can justify treating people like animals. And then when they (afr. amer.) are no longer considered only 1/3 human, the society they broke their backs to build and contribute to passes laws preventing them from gathering into large crowds, segregates them, and beats them for attempting to practice rights that were supposed to be protected by the US Constitution. Even though we as a society have made siginificant progress (at least not in public) the generations who endured that suffering are still alive. My parents (who grew up in the south) tell me on a regular basis about all the injustices they faced as kids and as young adults. My grandparents share even more horrific stories. Because these occurrences are so much apart of who they are, their fears and lack of distrust are simply passed down to the next generation (deep seeded distrust along with the idea that afr. amer. are inferior to the majority).

Why sticky this when you know that the majority of people on this site are going to do nothing more than rephrase what has already been stated. Nothing will be learned from discussing something so touchy.

And just so you understand, many of these future doctors are only book smart (like you). You and so many others seem to lack a true understanding of how the world turns.

It is pointless to even re-introduce this topic here. Nothing will be gained from it being discussed.

 

[Chrissy]

let's give up....visualwealth just doesn't understand. The future will speak for itself.

 

[riceman04]

ahhh good old AA.

in my opinion, AA is simply reverse discrimination. let's let virtually all black, hispanic, native american, and other URMs into medical school because of their race. y'all are in no way disadvantaged. just because your great great great great great parents were enslaved does not mean you get a free ticket to medical school. i don't hate any of these races; i just don't see how a hispanic girl with a 3.5GPA, a 30MCAT, non-exceptional ECs can get into harvard, yale, stanford, and plenty of other top-tiered schools.

this system was started with good intentions but it's just wrong now.

i am technically like all these kids AA is supposed to support. i'm vietnamese and i had to pay for my own tuition to rice university, support my family with a 32hr/wk job that i had to work while attending school full-time. i don't see why i am actually looked down upon for med school admissions because i'm lumped into asian.

cliffnotes: AA is pure bs and i will always be resentful of those people who are let in because of AA, regardless of whether they are amazing doctors or not.

And........... so............. I already know you are an idiot. So why bother! Dude you are just as bad as Shredder.
BIGOT BIGOT BIGOT

 

[redclover]

\Like I have said and will continue to say... AA is right and, it recruits qualified minorities... AA might give minorites a slight advantage but, in the end there are whites getting similar advantages... look at the old boy system that existed and still exists at many schools, without AA and the value put upon diversity many overly qualified URMs will be passed up...

1. Like I said, AA only perpetuates the stereotype that minorities are intellectually inferior. the only way to stop these stereotypes is to PROVE THEM WRONG.
2. old boy network? most non-minorities have no "network" to help them. i for one don't even know any doctors personally, since im a first gen american. just b/c u are white doesnt mean that there is a network to help you. many ORMS dont have any connections either b/c they are new americans. its not like medicine is government anyway: personal achievement counts for the most. this is just an excuse.

 

[riceman04]

1. Like I said, AA only perpetuates the stereotype that minorities are intellectually inferior. the only way to stop these stereotypes is to PROVE THEM WRONG.
2. old boy network? most non-minorities have no "network" to help them. i for one don't even know any doctors personally, since im a first gen american. just b/c u are white doesnt mean that there is a network to help you. many ORMS dont have any connections either b/c they are new americans. its not like medicine is government anyway: personal achievement counts for the most. this is just an excuse.

oK so I do agree that maybe we do need to consider socioeconomic status. Most minorities would still fit under this category any way.

 

[visualwealth]

let's give up....visualwealth just doesn't understand. The future will speak for itself.

ahhaha victory at last.... Like I said, we are just too intelligent( we pro-AA people) ... cry in shame at the defeat at my hands hahahahahah

 

[hardy]

And........... so............. I already know you are an idiot. So why bother! Dude you are just as bad as Shredder.
BIGOT BIGOT BIGOT

The one thing I like about democracy is that we can discuss things. As a matter of fact, this is what keeps a democracy together. Discussion and debate. If you have a different opinion you state it, I tell you what I think is wrong abou it, you counter my argument etc. etc.
It may not lead to a final conclusion but it sure helps us both understand each other better. Just going around and label people does not help anybody.

 

[hardy]

ahhaha victory at last.... Like I said, we are just too intelligent( we pro-AA people) ... cry in shame at the defeat at my hands hahahahahah

uh... yes, very intelligent. I am sure readers will come to the same conclusion after reading this. As a matter of fact, why don't you print this thread out and send it in with your med school application? They will be really impressed.

Cookie?

 

[redclover]

oK so I do agree that maybe we do need to consider socioeconomic status. Most minorities would still fit under this category any way.

right, that way no one can claim that it is "racist", but poorer minorities will have a chance

 

[Fortune]

AA for socioeconomic reasons is great; AA because you happen to be black is discrimination and promotes racism. Why should a black person who comes from a wealthy family and has had every advantage possible be given priority in admissions? What about the poor white person who was abused and abandonned by his family...what does he get? How is that fair????

I agree with you 110%. I do believe that racism and slavery in the past has screwed a lot of ppl up. I don't full comprehend and I'm guessing a lot of people here don't but dude the one who said ' you haven't been through slavery so why should you benefit from AA' do you know the circle of abuse that slavery that has happened so many years ago has done to ppl in the present. I mean it isn't a coincidence that in most black neighborhood in America you find a gun store or liquor store 'perfectly' situated there. These stores are also not owned by black people but 'outsiders'..hmmmm.

I think society has a lot of ills and if AA does help the societal marginalized than so be it. There are people of every colour that are poor and cannot afford to go to college so if AA helps them, why should we complain? I think when people hear 'AA' they become really insecure and think that this is something that keeps them from reaching their goals. Look, if you're good enough and meant to get into med school you will, don't start complaining about things that don't concern you.

 

[DrBowtie]

If you care to know how I stand on the issue you can look up my posts in the hundreds of other AA threads all which have been closed.

But this thread is on a one way train to closed.

 

[riceman04]

The one thing I like about democracy is that we can discuss things. As a matter of fact, this is what keeps a democracy together. Discussion and debate. If you have a different opinion you state it, I tell you what I think is wrong abou it, you counter my argument etc. etc.
It may not lead to a final conclusion but it sure helps us both understand each other better. Just going around and label people does not help anybody.

Yeah it would be blind labeling if you do not know the person. I know this cat from school.

 

[hardy]

Yeah it would be blind labeling if you do not know the person. I know this cat from school.

okay, I will leave that between you two then.

 

[Will Hunting]

The problem most people have with AA is that it makes race a significant factor in admissions. Do not believe the politically correct statements made by medical schools. The reality is that many minorities are given a leg up in the admissions process. The problem with AA in the current state is that many minorities applying are middle class or well off enough not to deserve any extra help. Many poor white or asians who could use the help are left out. If it were socioeconomic then ANY race could benefit, and then those who meet a certain financial criteria would be forced to compete without any help. Is this really asking too much? Many of you will counter this by saying that going to social economic AA would lower the amount of minority acceptances thus lowering the amount of available physicians for understaffed hospitals in inner cities. Well, why doesn't the AAMC or government give incentive to recent med school grads to go serve in these inner cities, like paying med school debt. In return they would have to work for maybe 3-5 years. These are just some suggestions. The bottom line is that AA in its current form isn't needed to redistribute doctors. What we need to do is provide incentives for young doctors to go serve in areas that they would otherwise refuse to serve. NOw, you pro-AA supporters will say that white/asians will never want to serve these areas regardless of incentives. Well, how many middle class class minorities will either? The reality is that pay in these areas is signifcantly lower. Do you think that won't be a deterrant to them too? If you really think so you're misguided. Doctors are in for the money just as much as job security and love and profession, I know I am. I'm not going to invest so much time and money only to be poorly compensated. However, I would go serve in an inner city if they agreed to pay off my loans and after that myself or any other physician would be free to leave. Don't flame, this is just an observation that I've made.

 

[Fortune]

That was probably the poorest argument for AA I've ever seen. Pro-AA people only win because AA is nere now and probably here to stay until the government comes to their senses. Obviously other factors are taken into consideration to evaluate that they will make a good doctor and therefore worthy of taking into medical school. I never realized that race was one of those factors. The only way ican see that coming into play is if a patient wanted somweone of their own race treating them. Butr hey wouldn't it be called racist if a white patient refused treatment from a black doctor? Why is the double standard acceptable???? But as someone else suggested shouild these minority doctors sign a waver saying they will treat in underpriviledged/minority areas?? Thats' ridiculous...well about as ridiculous as AA is when it is based on color of one's skin.

Ooo....I have a response. If a patient said they wanted a doctor of their color treating them that WOULD be racist b/c both of these ppl have been trained the same way and the only thing different about them is their colour? WTF?

But let's say there was this patient and she was of Arab decent and she said she would like a Arab doctor who understood her culture treating her( Arab could be a white arab or black arab wtever) would that be considered racist? Clearly culture and medicine go hand in hand. I know my mother would make preferences on a doctor based on language ( b/c she speaks more French then English, or pick a Somali speaking doctor even if he/she was white b/c language in medicine is key), religious background( being a Muslim women she would rather have a Muslim doctor b/c there are customs in interacting with a women in Islam that a non-Muslim doctor might not understand-mind you if they lived in like Egypt for 10 years and knew something then that wouldn't be an issue) and a women( going into a ob-gy most women would prefer a women doctor).

If she asked for these reasons would you consider her to be a a bigot based on language? A religionist? A racist? A culturalist?

If a Amish person came into see a doctor and asked to see a Amish doctor I wouldn't consider them to be prejudice at all.

 

[xSTALLiONx]

i volunteered at a homeless shelter tutoring children in east harlem (NYC) for a year. the kids there were predominantly black and hispanic kids. these kids simply did not have anything. for goodness sake, they didnt even have a stable home! and yet, some of the kids were determined to get out the housing, graduate high school and go onto college. they didnt have the resources that we all sometimes take for granted. how many of us took prep courses for ths SATs? how many of us had a decent house/apartment from where we could study? they were struggling to get accepted to a college...i doubt many were even thinking as far as med schools. by working with these kids, i realized that these kids need a chance to prove themselves in society. and the only way was through affirmative action. their grades were sub-par and who could blame them? they have bigger worries than the next history exam.

is AA 100% foolproof? of course not. just like ANYTHING in life, there will be those who take advantage of it and those who look down upon it. but unless youve witnessed what some of these kids go through, lets not throw stones. do kids who get in trough AA gain that much? they still have to prove themselves when they get into med schools. after all, we all have to pass some cutoff grade on our boards.

my opinion is that AAs can be a very good thing as it gives disadvantaged kids a chance. why should education be a privilege?

by the way, i am korean.

is it just me or do most of our family's trace back to a poor farmer family in europe and an ambitious parent or grandparent or great grandparent that came to America and worked their ass off cleaning toilets to save up money to get a house, car, english classes, food,etc.. to give one race preference is somewhat racist..

Moving away from racism and more to "poverty"/disadvantaged..
blaming poor conditions for not rising out of poverty is ******ed... The whole country was in a state of poverty during the stock market collapses and yet they worked hard to get ahead..
Just driving to the ghettos shows that a lot of people are just HANGING out.. no matter what.. HANGING OUT will not turn into anything good.. Try reading a HTML book and learning to make websites.. Teach yourself something.. What no computers? Why do you have the latest clothes, a Sidekick II, a cell phone, etc.. Mismanagement of money... Invest in YOURSELF

Millions people have rise out of poverty to never look back.. Many rich have squandered away their lives due to drugs, alcohol, etc.. and are in poverty.. it's a huge game.. Get ahead.. Teach your kids to get ahead.. and so on.. and you might be a rockafella or kennedy or bush one day..

 

[topdogg82]

1- I definitely think it should be based on socioeconomic factors rather than race, which is IMO just a crude and easier way to 'claim' diversity. Why shouldn't we help the poor whites/indians/asians as well as poor blacks/hispanics?

2- A lot of the blacks/hispanics that do benefit from AA for the top schools are from at least middle class backgrounds, if not better. This notion people have that AA is pulling inner-city kids into top 10 schools is mostly BS. The people who are benefiting mostly are the richer black/hispanic kids who are on the same level as their white/asian counterparts but are getting this extra benefit, which is pretty undeserved for these kids b/c they grew up in the same neighborhoods. Plus, if AA was intended to make up for slavery, then why is it also helping hispanics? Don't recall too many of them coming over from Africa?

3- AA to help people is great, but as someone said, it has become 'forced,' meaning schools are trying to desperately fill certain quotas and often lowering their standards just to look good, not b/c they actually are trying to get the best possible students.

4- Isn't AA just propagating the stereotype that the racial minorities that it helps are somewhat inferior b/c they need that extra boost? I'm sure people aren't saying anything to minority faces, but I've experienced many times in person those same people taling $hit about AA helping those kids behind their backs. Pretty sure this fake PC **** wasn't what people like MLK were striving for.

5- So in conclusion, if AA is helping an underprivileged kid from the inner city (no matter what race) get a boost, GREAT! However, in my experience, instead of focusing on these kids, it has just become a boost for minorities from comfortable backgrounds who are often (not always) getting in with comparatively lower qualifications over whites/asians.

 

[Chrissy]

"Ok, so just re-read the bull**** statement you made earlier and then you will see why I hate for this topic to be re-introduced. There is nothing worse than a pseudo bigot like yourself trying to pose as a fair individual who "honestly" loathes AA. Please UT, I was accepted into Rice based on my own merit and I am sure I will be accepted into a med. school based on my own merit."

Congrats dawg. That has nothing to do with the OP or AA. You miss the point.


"And where the hell do you get off thinking that my people are being given reparations for the past unjustices that took place. You know, I now believe it when people say "I really do not know what goes on in today's world outside my own litte utopia in Beverly Hills."

Wait, sorry.....who said that? This has nothing to do with the OP or AA. You miss the point.


"If everything is sooooooooooo fair and equal now, why was I consistently getting profiled as a criminal while a student at Rice, despite never causing any trouble or having a criminal record for that matter? "

Again, severely missing the point. Exactly the argument. Things are not equal and AA is making the situation worse for everybody. The government has labeled you as different and in need of compensatory aid because of your skin color....and you have the audacity and ignorance to argue that has productive to counter racism. Profoundly disturbing.

I'm sorry you had bad experiences at Rice. Would you have preferred to have been seen as the same as everyone else on campus? Yet again you fail to understand. AA does just the opposite.


"Why do the majority of the priviledged still have such a bias about the intent of black person standing behind or next to them in a line (watch your parents reaction when a afr. amer male comes around. That's right........ suspicion)."

I bet your Mom had you when she was 15 and you don't know your Father. Oh, and I also bet at one point you were addicted to crack and robbed a house. Isn't it funny how baseless and unintelligent generalizations sound..."The majority of the privile(no "d")ged.....".....That statement is extraordinarily ignorant.

" I have to work twice as hard just to ensure that I succeed despite all that has happened (to me) and all that has been assumed about me (b/c of my skin color)."

Work twice as hard how? Do your profs set a different curve for you as a conspiracy to keep the African American from getting into grad school?

" Hell, even though I know I have been contributing to this society, sometimes it makes me feel (and many other afr amer.) like I am nothing more than a detriment and a charity case."

Wow. Finally, you seem to understand. Affirmative action is baseless charity. It is unproductive and detrimentally provocative at best.

"Too assume that today's society has made so much progress towards equality is to suggest naievity. Yes, no one can deny that certain freedoms are now obviously applied to all. But the fact remains that this society's current existence is still predicated on inequalities, biases, and, to an extent, racism. "

Very true. I completely agree. If you assume we are close to true equality you are naive. Well said.


"You have to understand that something so horrendous as slavery and discrimination will never just be swept under the rug like it never happened. There is no way one can justify treating people like animals. And then when they (afr. amer.) are no longer considered only 1/3 human, the society they broke their backs to build and contribute to passes laws preventing them from gathering into large crowds, segregates them, and beats them for attempting to practice rights that were supposed to be protected by the US Constitution. Even though we as a society have made siginificant progress (at least not in public) the generations who endured that suffering are still alive. My parents (who grew up in the south) tell me on a regular basis about all the injustices they faced as kids and as young adults. My grandparents share even more horrific stories. Because these occurrences are so much apart of who they are, their fears and lack of distrust are simply passed down to the next generation (deep seeded distrust along with the idea that afr. amer. are inferior to the majority). "

That is also well said but far off point unfortunately. This debate was about AA...it's origins, it's practice, and it's effectiveness. In my opinion....based on evidence and observation...it does not seem to be working and seems to perpetuate a serious issue. I'm not against human rights for all human colors...i am against the proposed solution that has been issued by our government.


"And just so you understand, many of these future doctors are only book smart (like you). You and so many others seem to lack a true understanding of how the world turns."

Maybe so, but your tone wreaks contempt, distaste, and mistrust from the group of people you NEED to get along with to terminally absolve this problem. Compensation in the form of AA and reminding us what happened 150 + years ago and how it effects you today is nothing short of useless. It will not work.

If you do not trust me because of the hatred your ancestors felt, there is little I can do in 2005 to reverse that. And by the way, I went to school in West Philadelphia where i felt unsafe walking alone at night. On average there was one armed robbery a week on students. Is my fear of not being safe racist because the surrounding area was over 99% African American? or statistically logical and downright factual? I reason for the latter.

VisualWealth: No response as your mindless exhibition of futility has overwhelmed me.

 

[Fortune]

So before this thread is closed I think that the majority of posters in this thread agree that AA should be used to help all individuals from lower socio-economic backgrounds. This not only helps new immigrants, which may also be living in the ghettos and slums, poor people in general, but it also decreases the amount of racism that AA as it is understood now causes some bigots to exhibit.
Case Closed.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

1- I definitely think it should be based on socioeconomic factors rather than race, which is IMO just a crude and easier way to 'claim' diversity. Why shouldn't we help the poor whites/indians/asians as well as poor blacks/hispanics?

2- A lot of the blacks/hispanics that do benefit from AA for the top schools are from at least middle class backgrounds, if not better. This notion people have that AA is pulling inner-city kids into top 10 schools is mostly BS. The people who are benefiting mostly are the richer black/hispanic kids who are on the same level as their white/asian counterparts but are getting this extra benefit, which is pretty undeserved for these kids b/c they grew up in the same neighborhoods. Plus, if AA was intended to make up for slavery, then why is it also helping hispanics? Don't recall too many of them coming over from Africa?

3- AA to help people is great, but as someone said, it has become 'forced,' meaning schools are trying to desperately fill certain quotas and often lowering their standards just to look good, not b/c they actually are trying to get the best possible students.

4- Isn't AA just propagating the stereotype that the racial minorities that it helps are somewhat inferior b/c they need that extra boost? I'm sure people aren't saying anything to minority faces, but I've experienced many times in person those same people taling $hit about AA helping those kids behind their backs. Pretty sure this fake PC **** wasn't what people like MLK were striving for.

5- So in conclusion, if AA is helping an underprivileged kid from the inner city (no matter what race) get a boost, GREAT! However, in my experience, instead of focusing on these kids, it has just become a boost for minorities from comfortable backgrounds who are often (not always) getting in with comparatively lower qualifications over whites/asians.

thank you for summing up all the valid arguments on this thread

 

[63768]

And........... so............. I already know you are an idiot. So why bother! Dude you are just as bad as Shredder.
BIGOT BIGOT BIGOT

see i don't even know why a fellow owl would be so hate-filled. i may be resentful of these people but i wouldn't call them idiots until proven so.

and you're profiled as a criminal because a good number of criminals are black people. if you read the rice thresher and looked at the police blotter or went to UH and picked up their newspaper, you'd see that a very larger portion of the crimes committed are "black male holds up person at gunpoint" or "something stolen, suspect black male." and that's on a small college campus scale. look worldwide. while all races commit crimes, black people are usually the suspects. either that or the media tailors its news to illustrate black people as such.

i don't know which is true. but all i know is, my family's convenience store has been a) robbed, b) held up, or c) things stolen in the past 5 years. and on camera, we've seen that the majority (almost 80%) are black people.

i'm not saying black people = criminals. i'm saying that's why the stereotype exists. don't get your panties in a wad, thinking i'm racist.

back to the topic, reading your posts, i am still not convinced that AA benefits our population as a whole. it doesn't advocate diversity, and if it did, we should let stupid people in too. because we're discriminating based on intelligence. to mirror your argument, stupid people were born into stupidity just as black people were born into families that had slaves 150 yrs ago. they should be compensated too right?

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Ooo....I have a response. If a patient said they wanted a doctor of their color treating them that WOULD be racist b/c both of these ppl have been trained the same way and the only thing different about them is their colour? WTF?

But let's say there was this patient and she was of Arab decent and she said she would like a Arab doctor who understood her culture treating her( Arab could be a white arab or black arab wtever) would that be considered racist? Clearly culture and medicine go hand in hand. I know my mother would make preferences on a doctor based on language ( b/c she speaks more French then English, or pick a Somali speaking doctor even if he/she was white b/c language in medicine is key), religious background( being a Muslim women she would rather have a Muslim doctor b/c there are customs in interacting with a women in Islam that a non-Muslim doctor might not understand-mind you if they lived in like Egypt for 10 years and knew something then that wouldn't be an issue) and a women( going into a ob-gy most women would prefer a women doctor).

If she asked for these reasons would you consider her to be a a bigot based on language? A religionist? A racist? A culturalist?

If a Amish person came into see a doctor and asked to see a Amish doctor I wouldn't consider them to be prejudice at all.

well apparently it is acceptable for every race and culture to demand their own kind except for the average white American....

 

[xSTALLiONx]

If you do not trust me because of the hatred your ancestors felt, there is little I can do in 2005 to reverse that. And by the way, I went to school in West Philadelphia where i felt unsafe walking alone at night. On average there was one armed robbery a week on students. Is my fear of not being safe racist because the surrounding area was over 99% African American? or statistically logical and downright factual? I reason for the latter.

I totally agree.. we are pattern recognition machines.. but it applies to everything.. the poster has probably felt white people have held him back.. but that does not mean all white people will hold him back.. but if most of them have been white.. it is statistically likely that the next one will be.. and I don't have any problem with people using mental statistics..

 

[Sundarban1]

 

[DrBowtie]

Here is my question?
Should a person who gets into an IVY w/FA due to AA get AA in getting into medical school. I wouldn't call a person who went to an IVY on a scholarship disadvantaged anymore.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Here is my question?
Should a person who gets into an IVY w/FA due to AA get AA in getting into medical school. I wouldn't call a person who went to an IVY on a scholarship disadvantaged anymore.

good point; i totally agree. when does it end???

 

[riceman04]

"Ok, so just re-read the bull**** statement you made earlier and then you will see why I hate for this topic to be re-introduced. There is nothing worse than a pseudo bigot like yourself trying to pose as a fair individual who "honestly" loathes AA. Please UT, I was accepted into Rice based on my own merit and I am sure I will be accepted into a med. school based on my own merit."

Congrats dawg. That has nothing to do with the OP or AA. You miss the point.


"And where the hell do you get off thinking that my people are being given reparations for the past unjustices that took place. You know, I now believe it when people say "I really do not know what goes on in today's world outside my own litte utopia in Beverly Hills."

Wait, sorry.....who said that? This has nothing to do with the OP or AA. You miss the point.


"If everything is sooooooooooo fair and equal now, why was I consistently getting profiled as a criminal while a student at Rice, despite never causing any trouble or having a criminal record for that matter? "

Again, severely missing the point. Exactly the argument. Things are not equal and AA is making the situation worse for everybody. The government has labeled you as different and in need of compensatory aid because of your skin color....and you have the audacity and ignorance to argue that has productive to counter racism. Profoundly disturbing.

I'm sorry you had bad experiences at Rice. Would you have preferred to have been seen as the same as everyone else on campus? Yet again you fail to understand. AA does just the opposite.


"Why do the majority of the priviledged still have such a bias about the intent of black person standing behind or next to them in a line (watch your parents reaction when a afr. amer male comes around. That's right........ suspicion)."

I bet your Mom had you when she was 15 and you don't know your Father. Oh, and I also bet at one point you were addicted to crack and robbed a house. Isn't it funny how baseless and unintelligent generalizations sound..."The majority of the privile(no "d")ged.....".....That statement is extraordinarily ignorant.

" I have to work twice as hard just to ensure that I succeed despite all that has happened (to me) and all that has been assumed about me (b/c of my skin color)."

Work twice as hard how? Do your profs set a different curve for you as a conspiracy to keep the African American from getting into grad school?

" Hell, even though I know I have been contributing to this society, sometimes it makes me feel (and many other afr amer.) like I am nothing more than a detriment and a charity case."

Wow. Finally, you seem to understand. Affirmative action is baseless charity. It is unproductive and detrimentally provocative at best.

"Too assume that today's society has made so much progress towards equality is to suggest naievity. Yes, no one can deny that certain freedoms are now obviously applied to all. But the fact remains that this society's current existence is still predicated on inequalities, biases, and, to an extent, racism. "

Very true. I completely agree. If you assume we are close to true equality you are naive. Well said.


"You have to understand that something so horrendous as slavery and discrimination will never just be swept under the rug like it never happened. There is no way one can justify treating people like animals. And then when they (afr. amer.) are no longer considered only 1/3 human, the society they broke their backs to build and contribute to passes laws preventing them from gathering into large crowds, segregates them, and beats them for attempting to practice rights that were supposed to be protected by the US Constitution. Even though we as a society have made siginificant progress (at least not in public) the generations who endured that suffering are still alive. My parents (who grew up in the south) tell me on a regular basis about all the injustices they faced as kids and as young adults. My grandparents share even more horrific stories. Because these occurrences are so much apart of who they are, their fears and lack of distrust are simply passed down to the next generation (deep seeded distrust along with the idea that afr. amer. are inferior to the majority). "

That is also well said but far off point unfortunately. This debate was about AA...it's origins, it's practice, and it's effectiveness. In my opinion....based on evidence and observation...it does not seem to be working and seems to perpetuate a serious issue. I'm not against human rights for all human colors...i am against the proposed solution that has been issued by our government.


"And just so you understand, many of these future doctors are only book smart (like you). You and so many others seem to lack a true understanding of how the world turns."

Maybe so, but your tone wreaks contempt, distaste, and mistrust from the group of people you NEED to get along with to terminally absolve this problem. Compensation in the form of AA and reminding us what happened 150 + years ago and how it effects you today is nothing short of useless. It will not work.

If you do not trust me because of the hatred your ancestors felt, there is little I can do in 2005 to reverse that. And by the way, I went to school in West Philadelphia where i felt unsafe walking alone at night. On average there was one armed robbery a week on students. Is my fear of not being safe racist because the surrounding area was over 99% African American? or statistically logical and downright factual? I reason for the latter.

VisualWealth: No response as your mindless exhibition of futility has overwhelmed me.

Wow! So ya spent all that time trying to analyze and break down an argument that was never intended to discuss AA. I was directly addressing Shredder's attitude about discussing this topic. Now, if you you are able to scroll with your mouse you will see that I too think that AA should be based solely on socioeconomic status (even though I do support AA now in most cases). I am sorry you wasted time trying to prove a point that was never really discussed in my post. Reading comprehension......I learned it.....did you?

And by the way, I never said that I specifically do not trust your ethnicity (assuming you are caucasian). If that were true then I would not have so many caucasian friends. I guess we will never really know what it means to be in each other's shoes. Please read Shredder's post b4 you attack mine.
Your futile attempts to justify why my argument is severely flawed have been noted.

So I am curious since you say that "Compensation in the form of AA and reminding us what happened 150 + years ago and how it effects you today is nothing short of useless." how to you propose we rectify the situation occuring in ALL cities today. Do you for some reason think that what happened that long ago has not had a ripple effect within miniority communities (URM communities)? Gosh....now I starting to think you are as naieve!

And if my stereotype of upperclass americans so true then why is it a major topic of discussion within the fields of sociology and social psychology.

Come on....chrissy for some reason I expected you think above and beyond this repetitive blah that so many other people have deemed as acceptable (based on other posts before). But I guess I need to just chalk that up to stupidity on my part.

One more thing.....are you planning on practicing in an inner city (where health care is lacking)? Right now, my guess would be no (I cant help but assume you are living in paradise and have no idea of how badly services are needed in these areas)! But maybe I am wrong (and I hope I am).
I know I will be working in an underserved community.

cya!

 

[happydays]

When will AA end?

it will not end.

there's also AA in the work place.

Which led me to conclude this: Marry a black/hispanic/native man/woman, and your babies will have an easier time in this fiercely competitive process.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

When will AA end?

it will not end.

there's also AA in the work place.

Which led me to conclude this: Marry a black/hispanic/native man/woman, and your babies will have an easier time in this fiercely competitive process.

funny every time I see a child of mixed race (including black/hispanic/native Amercian) I always think, oh that child will have the advantages of AA. I know that's pathetically sad.

 

[riceman04]

see i don't even know why a fellow owl would be so hate-filled. i may be resentful of these people but i wouldn't call them idiots until proven so.

and you're profiled as a criminal because a good number of criminals are black people. if you read the rice thresher and looked at the police blotter or went to UH and picked up their newspaper, you'd see that a very larger portion of the crimes committed are "black male holds up person at gunpoint" or "something stolen, suspect black male." and that's on a small college campus scale. look worldwide. while all races commit crimes, black people are usually the suspects. either that or the media tailors its news to illustrate black people as such.

i don't know which is true. but all i know is, my family's convenience store has been a) robbed, b) held up, or c) things stolen in the past 5 years. and on camera, we've seen that the majority (almost 80%) are black people.

i'm not saying black people = criminals. i'm saying that's why the stereotype exists. don't get your panties in a wad, thinking i'm racist.

back to the topic, reading your posts, i am still not convinced that AA benefits our population as a whole. it doesn't advocate diversity, and if it did, we should let stupid people in too. because we're discriminating based on intelligence. to mirror your argument, stupid people were born into stupidity just as black people were born into families that had slaves 150 yrs ago. they should be compensated too right?

s"ee i don't even know why a fellow owl would be so hate-filled. i may be resentful of these people but i wouldn't call them idiots until proven so."

You you are right, you are probably not that bad (I really dont know you, even though I have been acting like I do.....um yeah...how immature). But part of what you said above is exactly the problem. While at Rice so many people assumed that I and the rest of the BSA got into Rice only b/c of AA (not realizing that the Hopkins decision at UT) prevented attempts to maintain a quota of some sort in favor of minorities (oh but it could be against them). The fact that you claim you resent "them" (us) tells me that you have pre-conceived notions about our inability to compete with everyone else. That does not strike me as being fair. So yes, I am wrong for saying all those things about you.

I am all for diversity...dude I was in ADVANCE, SAS, KSA, CSS, BSA, NAACP, etc..... and attended all the cultural shows (you would know who I am if you ever attended soul night or dwali night or SAS night. Yes, I was usually the only afr. amer. guy participating in SAS night.)

And dude, fix your argument about stupid people being born into stupid families........as a fellow owl, that does not really work well.
give another example or something.

 

[riceman04]

Here is my question?
Should a person who gets into an IVY w/FA due to AA get AA in getting into medical school. I wouldn't call a person who went to an IVY on a scholarship disadvantaged anymore.

nope!
How pronounced do you think AA is in medicine? Just asking a question. I am not challenging you in any way....for you are the omniscient one......

 

[DrBowtie]

Hey riceman04 how do you feel about my comment above:
Here is my question?
Should a person who gets into an IVY w/FA due to AA get AA in getting into medical school. I wouldn't call a person who went to an IVY on a scholarship disadvantaged anymore.

I think you have some good things to say and would value your perspective.

 

[DrBowtie]

LOL we updated at the same time.

 

[DrBowtie]

IMHO, I think that all things being equal grades (same school)/MCAT/Voluteering Reasearch (I know that they can't be exactly the same but equal) and one was a minority, I truly feel that they would take the minority. I think they would perceive it as a greater accomplishment from a minority or perceive the person had more hardships in college.

I don't know how much it would boost over a more qualified applicant and I am sure it varies by school but that fact that can't be denied is that schools profile. They wouldn't post their data about M/F Black/White/Asian if they didn't.

 

[fancymylotus]

HA Another AA thread... I don’t get it!! Every time we debate this issue pro-AA people win every single time! Why you may ask?? Because we are smarter and more realistic...

So to make a long story short!

In medicine it has been proven that ones GPA and mcat score does not correlate to A) the quality of doctor they will become and, B) the quality of researcher they will become...

Thus, medical schools consider other factors... If AA were to be canceled we would have to have an admissions policy similar to Canada and everywhere else in the world... That is, it would have to be based solely on stats thus, no 3.7 no 33 don't even apply... My questions is, why are there so many white people and ORMS at top ten schools between the 28 an 33 range??... That is, if standards are so high for them should they not have to score 35+...


It is obvious that these white people (and orms) are benefiting from the other factors that are being considered... So instead of being racist and jealous lol why dont you waste your time hating on these people!!!


And a personal message to shredder... Why don’t you go back to India if it is so great over there lol... Let me guess??? b/c a doc over there make peanuts compared to a doc in America

It is pretty great over "there" in India. Back up.

 

[63768]

riceman04, is your name cameron??? if so i danced with you in an SAS dance. haha. i was one of the two SE asians in that dance.

i am also all for diversity. and i don't think less of the BSA people. i just don't like AA. i did virtually everything at rice. i almost joined a step dance in the BSA show too...but i sucked haha.

 

[Shredder]

____black___
..................\___hispanic__
......................................\
.......................................\
........................................\
.........................................\____white____
..............................................................\__asian, indian____

vs

____black_____hispanic______white______asian, indian_____

fair fight, isnt it. i wonder what the history books will have to say about aa 50 years from now. theres no reason to close this thread. this is what aa is at the grass roots level, not what the politicians and schools feed you. +dead horse and troll comments are so played out, if topics really are unnecessary then they will die out on their own. just like diversity will form on its own in schools without central planning, because people are naturally diverse.

 

[Chrissy]

Riceman:

I actually am currently in Americorps as a member of the New York City Community HealthCorps. I work in a Peadiatric urban healthcare clinic in the flatbush area of brooklyn....with only a living stipend of $700.00/month.....I do 40-50 hrs of full time community service per week....i'm 6 months in and have 6 months to go....paradise is not the word that comes to mind honestly.

I do not have a proposed alternative...but i think when something makes a situation worse and doesn't help what it set out to help it should be evaluated and changed. just my peice. i respect your opinion lets leave this where it is. best of luck to you.

 

[DrBowtie]

____black___
..................\___hispanic__
......................................\
.......................................\
........................................\
.........................................\____white____
..............................................................\__asian, indian____

vs

____black_____hispanic______white______asian, indian_____

fair fight, isnt it. i wonder what the history books will have to say about aa 50 years from now. theres no reason to close this thread. this is what aa is at the grass roots level, not what the politicians and schools feed you. +dead horse and troll comments are so played out, if topics really are unnecessary then they will die out on their own. just like diversity will form on its own in schools without central planning, because people are naturally diverse.

You put some time into that post didn't you?

 

[Shredder]

You put some time into that post didn't you?

im left brained, things like that dont come easily for me. but it was fun, maybe i should make schematics more often.

 

[DrBowtie]

Would have been easier to make a flow chart on word then upload probably....
Shredder whats your take on:
Here is my question?
Should a person who gets into an IVY w/FA due to AA get AA in getting into medical school. I wouldn't call a person who went to an IVY on a scholarship disadvantaged anymore.

 

[Shredder]

Would have been easier to make a flow chart on word then upload probably....
Shredder whats your take on:
Here is my question?
Should a person who gets into an IVY w/FA due to AA get AA in getting into medical school. I wouldn't call a person who went to an IVY on a scholarship disadvantaged anymore.

always thinking about efficiencies, youll make a ruthless exec! yeah i saw that...well the answer is that aa never stops at any point in the sequence of events. starts in college admissions->med or professional school->residency or job->govt or leadership position. although there comes a point where aa goes to hell, as evidenced by the highest ranks of corporate america where you cannot afford to risk aa. in govt its ok to use aa, theres no bottom line to be held accountable for. but in biz nah, aa wont fly with shareholders. but that carly fiorina...well good thing shes gone. meg whitmans done well however. and of course, my carolyn.

 

[wends]

NOT ANOTHER AA THREAD!! ahahahaaaa run people!!

 

[riceman04]

Hey riceman04 how do you feel about my comment above:
Here is my question?
Should a person who gets into an IVY w/FA due to AA get AA in getting into medical school. I wouldn't call a person who went to an IVY on a scholarship disadvantaged anymore.

I think you have some good things to say and would value your perspective.

I do not think they should benefit from AA b/c they have already proven their ability to succeed. But I think the health profession will probably continue to use AA (although i do not think it is a prevalent as people are making it sound) b/c they know that the majority of URM will probably want to work in underserved communities.

 

[rugirlie]

first of all for someone at a top 5 school with a 30 mcat you are very cocky!!

Like I have said and will continue to say... AA is right and, it recruits qualified minorities... AA might give minorites a slight advantage but, in the end there are whites getting similar advantages... look at the old boy system that existed and still exists at many schools, without AA and the value put upon diversity many overly qualified URMs will be passed up...

finally, unlike other minorities (ORM's)who have been hyped by whites to be "geniuses" with great skills to help america... URMS have to face many negative sterotypes that hurt them in all aspects of academia ...

To put it plainly without AA there would still be discrimination in hiring and admission to medical school etc. Thus, society is better off with AA than without it.

When and where have I been cocky? Don't use my personal background as an insult to me just because you can't come up with logical counter arguments on your own. Ad-hominem fallacies don't work!!!!

 

[happydays]

I do not think they should benefit from AA b/c they have already proven their ability to succeed. But I think the health profession will probably continue to use AA (although i do not think it is a prevalent as people are making it sound) b/c they know that the majority of URM will probably want to work in underserved communities.

that's not true at all.

I read a study somewhere that says that people from a disadvantaged background are no more likely to work in poor neighborhoods. Why? They don't want to fall behind in the pack. They want to be just like their classmates, who are trying to get into plastics in california. That's the way it goes.

 

[mochief2000]

dam i got to go to med school with these people.
look here, what is the complaint, WHITE PEOPLE in med schools make up like 90% specially texas(my home state). Your mad because 4-5 black people got in. Damn, now thats ****ed up. Share the wealth man.
i think everybody is missing the point.

1. every race has poor people
2. Not every black has poor scores
3. Not only blacks are considered URM
4. Not every white is racist if doesn't agree with AA(just not understanding)
5. there has never been a 100% agreement on this issue
6. Most whites who don't like AA have not been around much blacks
7. Most blacks that think AA has no faults have not been around much whites

I like AA (I know am a ass for liking it) because it gives hope to the black community. most black men want to be rappers and entertainers not college graduates because they see more thugs gettin rich off this than they see doctors, lawyer etc(trust me I KNOW). Increasing the number of blacks role models like these doctors will change the society for the best. My role model was BEN CARSON who gave me hope like so many other black people. This to me is the point of AA. Everything else is stupid, sterotypical or just insane ...some of your ideas on AA are just amazing.

 

[Shredder]

that's not true at all.

I read a study somewhere that says that people from a disadvantaged background are no more likely to work in poor neighborhoods. Why? They don't want to fall behind in the pack. They want to be just like their classmates, who are trying to get into plastics in california. That's the way it goes.

this is correct, i have also seen many data indicating this. nobody wants to work in underserved areas, thats why theyre underserved. if urms who benefited from aa really were committed to working in a so called underserved area, bind them to it with some form of contractual agreement. but their word alone doesnt guarantee anything. its funny how many people would reconsider their dreams of working in rural and underserved areas if you held them to it.

Share the wealth man.

wealth is meant to be earned not shared. +speak english please

 

[DrMojorisin]

AA is here to stay until it becomes too complicated to identify races... Fortunately we are already making a lot of progress. The growing number of 1/8 blacks that are benefitting are straining the system. Eventually, we'll all have some minority blood, then we'll all get some help LOL!!! How will all of our mixed children discriminate against each other?

There are only two constructive things people can do to help end racism:

1) interracial breeding
2) resolve to stop getting angry about racial issues (which AA promotes) - a MLK/Ghandi styled approach is best.


I personally date a black girl as a white man, and always try to befriend and endear people who question our relationship. I find most people drop their stereotypes pretty easily once they are presented with a good counterexample.

I will admit there might be some drawbacks to my interracial breeding plan: did you all know that half-black, half-whites often feel discriminated against by "pure blacks." At least, this is what I've heard.

To carry over my system to this thread, I'd suggest everyone be more openminded and friendly, realizing that everyone has issues and problems, but all of us want to be good people. Well, most of us anyway.