What do you think...

I don't like your idea. OMM must be incorporated into the curriculum, otherwize it will be lost. If it was a residency only thing, only a hundred people a year will learn it. I think OMM is a valuable tool that we all will be using a lot. However, I do believe there should be an optional summer course that MD's can take in OMM and enter a DO residency.

I do think that DOs have an unfair disadvantage when compared to MD's because the time we spend studying OMT for our OMT practicals takes away lots of time from studying medicine. Our school gives a separate OMT hands on test at every block the same day as the written final. So, I think there should be some curriculum changes like giving an OMT practical a few days after the written systems test so we can cram it in a few days instead of losing studying time for the rest of the stuff like pharm, anatomy etc.

i think it's a good idea.
why should OMT be exclusive to DO's? if someone wants to learn OMM they should be able to do a residency. I know a lot of students at DO schools that say they look at OMM class as a joke (which is a shame). It doesn't take 7 yrs to learn omt (4school and 3fp+omm), I think that it's definately doable in 3-4 yrs.

medicine1 said:

What do you all think about having OMM as a residency only, where MDs and DOs can specialize in Osteopathy?

Do you think DO schools should keep OMT in their curriculum? And if so, do all DO schools across the board have consistant didactics, or are all DO schools different? How many credit hours of OMT do you have per year? And what techniques do you value learning the most?

And after you finish medical school, will you use OMT?

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If you remove OMM from the curriculum, then the DO degree ceases to exist.

If you aren't interested in doing OMM, then go to an MD school. Removing it from the curriculum doesn't make any sense.

ooppss...see below

Don't forget the NMM (Neuromusculoskeletal Medicine) residency as well for DO's...

(hey Medicine1, this is what Dr. Gustowski completed)

medicine1 said:

So what is the difference between NMM and what we learn in school? Can allopathic physicians do an NMM residency? And if not, why not?

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Well, I guess it's an NMM/OMM residency...we only learn so much in school in a limited amount of time. There is no way we can "master" these in two years let alone all of the many techniques out there.

Additionally, the NMM/OMM residency is certified/boarded under the AAO of the AOA, and hence, an MD is not allowed to match in an osteopathic residency.

http://www.academyofosteopathy.org/certification_neuro.cfm

A Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine may be certified by the Bureau of Osteopathic Specialists of the American Osteopathic Association in recognition of his/her proficiency in neuromusculoskeletal medicine and the use of osteopathic structural and palpatory diagnosis and manipulative treatment in the total health care of patients. Osteopathic physicians who have completed a residency in Neuromusculoskeletal Medicine and Osteopathic Manipulative Medicine (NMM/OMM) may establish board eligibility. Until December 31, 2005, osteopathic physicians, certified in any other specialty, can also be certified in NMM/OMM by fulfilling the eligibility requirements listed later in this document.

To qualify for certification certain prerequisites must be met. After applying and satisfying the prerequisites the candidate must submit three (3) case histories suitable for publication, which will evidence his/her type and manner of practice. These cases should demonstrate breadth of knowledge, understanding and skills in various techniques and paradigms. The candidate must then successfully pass a written, an oral and a practical examination.

To be eligible to receive Certification in Neuromusculoskeletal Medicine from the Board, the applicant must meet the following minimum requirements:

1. The Applicant must be a graduate of a college of osteopathic medicine approved by the American Osteopathic Association.
2. The Applicant must be licensed to practice in a state, territory, province or country.
3. The Applicant must be able to show evidence of conformity to the standards set in the Code of Ethics of the American Osteopathic Association.
4. The Applicant must have been a member in good standing of the American Osteopathic Association or the Canadian Osteopathic Association for a continuous period of at least two (2) years prior to the date of certification.
5. The Applicant must have completed satisfactorily an internship of at least one (1) year in a hospital approved for intern training by the American Osteopathic Association.
6. The applicant must have completed by AOBNMM application deadline

medicine1 said:

Some of the first DOs were MDs, including its founder Dr. Still.

Also, DOs right now train MDs overseas an OMM curriculum, where they 'become' osteopathic physicians, after an examination of proficiency.

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Hi

Could you please provide the source for this activity you mention? thanks

OSUdoc08 said:

If you remove OMM from the curriculum, then the DO degree ceases to exist.

If you aren't interested in doing OMM, then go to an MD school. Removing it from the curriculum doesn't make any sense.

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I think that's what this post is getting at...
But the mentality of "if you don't like just leave" is pathetic, and quite frankly OSU, I'm sick you people like you saying that, as if DO students aren't allowed to think for themselves.

How many DO students knew the entirety of what osteopathy meant before they applied? No one knows until they get here.

If you're in the camp of people that buys into the superficial differences touted by the AOA, then yea, OMM must remain in the curriculum.

If you're in the camp of people that are guided by logic and consistency, than an OMM residency is a better option. While it's true that few MDs actually learn OMT, the door is open (vis a vis the CME courses MDs can take to be certified in OMT and be allowed to bill for it), and it is philosophically inconsistent to claim professional distinction on the basis of 2 years of didactics versus a few hundred CME hours.

Explain to me how two physicians can reach the same endpoint (ie. being able to practice and bill for OMT) and be distinct professional entities?

I can just hear OSUs response: "Because we incorporate osteopathic medicine into everything we do...it's a philosophy and a mentality, not just OMT." Bull****.
The only thing that argument furthers is the notion that DOs are inherently better physicians based on initials, not individual skills.

homeboy said:

I think that's what this post is getting at...
But the mentality of "if you don't like just leave" is pathetic, and quite frankly OSU, I'm sick you people like you saying that, as if DO students aren't allowed to think for themselves.

How many DO students knew the entirety of what osteopathy meant before they applied? No one knows until they get here.

If you're in the camp of people that buys into the superficial differences touted by the AOA, then yea, OMM must remain in the curriculum.

If you're in the camp of people that are guided by logic and consistency, than an OMM residency is a better option. While it's true that few MDs actually learn OMT, the door is open (vis a vis the CME courses MDs can take to be certified in OMT and be allowed to bill for it), and it is philosophically inconsistent to claim professional distinction on the basis of 2 years of didactics versus a few hundred CME hours.

Explain to me how two physicians can reach the same endpoint (ie. being able to practice and bill for OMT) and be distinct professional entities?

I can just hear OSUs response: "Because we incorporate osteopathic medicine into everything we do...it's a philosophy and a mentality, not just OMT." Bull****.
The only thing that argument furthers is the notion that DOs are inherently better physicians based on initials, not individual skills.

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I'm sick of people whining about it. Who cares? Get over it and move on.

I'm off to the sports bar......

medicine1 said:

Also, DOs right now train MDs overseas an OMM curriculum, where they 'become' osteopathic physicians, after an examination of proficiency.

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This is incorrect, osteopathic physicians overseas are not MDs and do not practice traditional medicine. The go to european osteopathic schools where american DOs guest lecture and are not licensed to practice medicine only perform OMM. They get WAY more OMM than we do in school and come out with basically the hands on experience of our NMM/OMM physicians. American trained DOs are allowed to practice medicine in almost all of the european countries while european osteopaths are not recognized by the various national health services.

“…the APEP graduates have shown devotion to and application of osteopathic manipulative medicine. However, they can only be recognized as osteopathic physicians, not “allopathic” physicians as the DO is the only degree that they have received that permits them to be licensed as physicians.” (only in the USA)

Many of these foreign MDs that cannot get licensed in the USA, choose to do the APEP at NYCOM, and become DO’s. They are now DO’s and cannot be called “Joe Schmoe, DO, MD” just as the article says.


“…What about other MDs who have taken numerous courses and spent hundreds of hours learning manual medicine from osteopathic physicians, organizations and college CME programs? There was even an MD who was allowed to take training as a resident in Osteopathic Manipulative Medicine at one of the schools. Prior to beginning the residency, she had already amassed over three hundred hours of OMM/OPP CME. There has never been any method to recognize her proficiency. Another MD has received AOA and LBORC grants to study the benefits of osteopathic manipulation in children. In her course of training, she has amassed nearly 800 hours of training not including her completing the OMM course at the college of osteopathic medicine where she currently has an appointment. Yet her credentials and experience cannot be substantiated and officially recognized. In a letter to the Editor of the JAOA in the February 2001 issue, she has made an impassioned plea for the opportunity to be recognized for the many hours of training...”

The article also notes that these MD’s have had many hours of training of OMM via CMEs. I think it’s great that they were able to be approved in getting residency training in OMM. What probably helped them to get that was their enormous amount of exposure and training in OMM via these CMEs and petitioning. I think MD’s who want to train in OMM should be able to, but because of all the bureaucracy by the AOA and the fact that MDs are obviously not graduates of an accredited osteopathic medical school, they are still shut out of AOA accredited residencies (obviously with the exceptions above).

American DO’s who travel to Europe and Australia to teach OMM, lecture to non-physician osteopaths (AKA, DO, which is known as having a Diploma of Osteopathy – not Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine) and perhaps some MDs. The training is that of manipulation only, not western medicine. (If you need more info Med1, you could always email Dr. Jones or Dr. Rennie).

OSUdoc08 said:

If you remove OMM from the curriculum, then the DO degree ceases to exist.

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News flash: if you remove OMM from the DO curriculum, how many people are going to bypass DO school to become PTs or Chiropractors? Alternatively, if you remove allopathic medicine from the DO curriculum, how many people are going to not bother applying to DO school? I think the answers to those questions are "almost none" and "a whole lot of them," respectively.

I applied to medical school so I can diagnose, prescribe, and admit - not so I can become a lightning bonesetter.

If you aren't interested in doing OMM, then go to an MD school. Removing it from the curriculum doesn't make any sense.

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Are you aware of just how many DO schools such a shortsighted view would put out of business?

Old_Mil said:

News flash: if you remove OMM from the DO curriculum, how many people are going to bypass DO school to become PTs or Chiropractors? Alternatively, if you remove allopathic medicine from the DO curriculum, how many people are going to not bother applying to DO school? I think the answers to those questions are "almost none" and "a whole lot of them," respectively.

I applied to medical school so I can diagnose, prescribe, and admit - not so I can become a lightning bonesetter.



Are you aware of just how many DO schools such a shortsighted view would put out of business?

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What made you choose going to an MD school over a DO school?

Is it because you were rejected from MD schools?

If that is in fact the case----your opinion is a moot point.

OSUdoc08 said:

What made you choose going to an MD school over a DO school?

Is it because you were rejected from MD schools?

If that is in fact the case----your opinion is a moot point.

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Seriously, man, you need to grow up. If you polled students and asked them how many applied to both allo and osteo, I think you'd find it's quite a high percentage. What pre-med student in their right mind would LIMIT their chances by only applying to osteo schools? Even more so, the number of students that turn down MD acceptances to go DO is VERY low, and it's merely a reflection of how the interview process went, not the supposedly inherent differences between MD and DO.
I'm not afraid to admit it: I applied to MD and DO...waitlists and personal circumstances didn't favor the MD route, so I came here...not as a last-ditch effort or fall back, but as the option that worked out best.

If you want to make the distinction between DO students that ONLY wanted to be DOs versus DO students that just want to be physicians, it's not even going to be close...and I fail to see why you try to point out that you're somehow a 'better' DO student because you had no inclings to go MD...if anything, it shows how narrowminded of an undergrad you were.

homeboy said:

Seriously, man, you need to grow up. If you polled students and asked them how many applied to both allo and osteo, I think you'd find it's quite a high percentage. What pre-med student in their right mind would LIMIT their chances by only applying to osteo schools? Even more so, the number of students that turn down MD acceptances to go DO is VERY low, and it's merely a reflection of how the interview process went, not the supposedly inherent differences between MD and DO.
I'm not afraid to admit it: I applied to MD and DO...waitlists and personal circumstances didn't favor the MD route, so I came here...not as a last-ditch effort or fall back, but as the option that worked out best.

If you want to make the distinction between DO students that ONLY wanted to be DOs versus DO students that just want to be physicians, it's not even going to be close...and I fail to see why you try to point out that you're somehow a 'better' DO student because you had no inclings to go MD...if anything, it shows how narrowminded of an undergrad you were.

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Redneck said:

I did. I wanted to keep my options open. If I pursue rural family practice I would like to also emply OMM. Yet, I have no idea what I wish to pursue and no door is closed to me. I'm no fool and recognize some pathways may have a higher grade up to the summit, but I'm a mountain climber. My mental acumen is my crampon and my heart the ice axe.

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You, my friend, are unique... Yes, there are students that apply to only osteo, but the majority do both.
And I dispute that "no" doors are closed to you...if you want to be a subspecialist in surg, say peds, there simply are no DO residencies for that...you have to do am AMA residency--if you do AOA, there's no board certification for you..so if you want to be board certified, you need to do AMA.
Things have been getting better over the years, but you're a bit delusional if you think we're on equal footing with MDs in every program. If I want to do ortho at the U. of Iowa, there's no way I'd get in... same with the Iowa Methodist gen surg program down the street: it's never had a DO gs res. If you knew going into things that FP was what you wanted, I guess applying to only DO schools wouldn't hurt you...but again, not many people know what they want to practice 15 yrs down the road from med school apps.

Redneck said:

That's why I said I wasn't a fool and hence the mountain metaphor. This is part of the mountain. Yet, there are indeed AOA residencies for every speciality except for pathology, as far as I'm aware. Identifiable here: http://opportunities.osteopathic.org/search/search.cfm Regarding fellowship training, my understanding is it's open to any board certified or eligible doc of either AOA ACGME training assuming competitiveness and connections. From what I have gathered reading on SDN there may be discrepancies in certifying boards of two branches but that is merely a tomatoe tomato issue. So please, if you know for a fact and have a source you could direct me to where a D.O. pursuing AOA GME couldn't achieve the same medical practice as an M.D. I would like to know. That would indeed be news to me.
Thus far from what I can tell, AOA residencies are merely limited only in location and perhaps number compared to our other colleagues.

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My point was that it's not a matter of the steepness of the route...some routes are just not there (granted I'm mainly talking about the uber competitive residencies that are no picnic for MD students either).
There is a 4th yr at my school wanting to go into peds surg...there is no board certification via the AOA route. IE. he can't be an AOA board certified pediatric surgeon.
And I wouldn't say "merely" limited in location and number...there is a reason why half of DO grads choose ACGME residencies over AOA: they are better residencies.

Redneck said:

Okay, so I just did some calling with the ABS and you are partially correct. An individual could obtain a pediatric surgery fellowship from an osteopathic residency but would be ineligible to sit for board certification. (I have a hard time believing that if he did this route that he couldn't practice his dream. I mean a GS is still licensed for the same procedures, if he did the training and is competent even without formal certification, what's the problem?) He could if he did the ACGME GS residency though - here is thread pertaining to such an issue http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=282915

I stand by my earlier statement that doors are open and not closed via an osteopathic school (with a possible incline).

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Doors being open or closed may be a personal opinion, but I agree that the hill is steeper--arguably a vertical face--in some specialties. That being said, I find it hard to beleive many pre med'ers would willingly take the path of more resistance. And again, though people who are set on entering FP will encounter zero difficulties, most students do not know what they really want to enter, and often those that supposedly 'do', change their minds.

homeboy said:

Seriously, man, you need to grow up. If you polled students and asked them how many applied to both allo and osteo, I think you'd find it's quite a high percentage. What pre-med student in their right mind would LIMIT their chances by only applying to osteo schools? Even more so, the number of students that turn down MD acceptances to go DO is VERY low, and it's merely a reflection of how the interview process went, not the supposedly inherent differences between MD and DO.
I'm not afraid to admit it: I applied to MD and DO...waitlists and personal circumstances didn't favor the MD route, so I came here...not as a last-ditch effort or fall back, but as the option that worked out best.

If you want to make the distinction between DO students that ONLY wanted to be DOs versus DO students that just want to be physicians, it's not even going to be close...and I fail to see why you try to point out that you're somehow a 'better' DO student because you had no inclings to go MD...if anything, it shows how narrowminded of an undergrad you were.

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I applied to MD schools. I just don't whine about being a DO student like others on this forum.

OSUdoc08 said:

What made you choose going to an MD school over a DO school? Is it because you were rejected from MD schools?
If that is in fact the case----your opinion is a moot point.

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Location. I picked the medical school that offered allopathic training as part of its curriculum and fit my set of personal circumstances at the time.

Now, if you wouldn't mind addressing my original assertions?

Old_Mil said:

Location. I picked the medical school that offered allopathic training as part of its curriculum and fit my set of personal circumstances at the time.

Now, if you wouldn't mind addressing my original assertions?

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What made you decide to apply to DO schools in the first place?

Apart from the posturing, venting, and flaming that these discussions usually devolve into (probably adding my own fuel now).......


I would really like to hear what one of you frustrated MS'ers (despite whatever legitamate complaints you may have about cranial and EBM, etc.) tells a pt./family when you are an intern and they ask you "what's a D.O?, or how are you different?". To attempt to be specific here, what to do tell others/yourself about why you are a D.O. when you have chosen to reject OMM/OMT? This is not a judgement or accusation...I am legitimately (sp) curious on this one. I am one who only applied D.O. and fully embraced OMM and plan to make that a major part of my practice, so I always feel like this question is a slamdunk and a chance to brag on the field. How do you approach/plan to approach this?

macman said:

Apart from the posturing, venting, and flaming that these discussions usually devolve into (probably adding my own fuel now).......


I would really like to hear what one of you frustrated MS'ers (despite whatever legitamate complaints you may have about cranial and EBM, etc.) tells a pt./family when you are an intern and they ask you "what's a D.O?, or how are you different?". To attempt to be specific here, what to do tell others/yourself about why you are a D.O. when you have chosen to reject OMM/OMT?

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Well, sorry to block your 'slam dunk,' dude, but I fail to see why you have a big "gotcha!" by asking the ad hominem, "Why are you a DO if you 'reject' OMT?" First, I would say I don't 'reject' it, and neither do most of the people you would lump into that category, they just don't buy into everything hook line and sinker because the AOA and OMM profs pump you full of crap like, "You're special, you're a DO." You went to DMU...you know exactly the poeple I'm talking about--you may feel differently, that's fine, but a silent majority of us don't buy the crap. We just want to be physicians, and for whatever personal / academic / location reasons, DO school is what worked out. Why am I a DO? Because for all intent and purpose, I'm going to be a doctor, and that is more important to me than whatever superficial labels are going to be slapped on my white coat.
It's not like everyone doesn't already encounter this...not a single freakin person in my family knew what a DO was except 1 or 2 that were in the medical field, and their impression: DOs are the same thing as MDs, so who cares. So I've only encountered 2 types of people: DOs , MDs, and other health care professionals that told me DOs are the same thing, and friends / family who had no idea what the hell "The DO Difference" is...they know now, because I tell them: It's nothing.

homeboy said:

Well, sorry to block your 'slam dunk,' dude, but I fail to see why you have a big "gotcha!" by asking the ad hominem, "Why are you a DO if you 'reject' OMT?" First, I would say I don't 'reject' it, and neither do most of the people you would lump into that category, they just don't buy into everything hook line and sinker because the AOA and OMM profs pump you full of crap like, "You're special, you're a DO." You went to DMU...you know exactly the poeple I'm talking about--you may feel differently, that's fine, but a silent majority of us don't buy the crap. We just want to be physicians, and for whatever personal / academic / location reasons, DO school is what worked out. Why am I a DO? Because for all intent and purpose, I'm going to be a doctor, and that is more important to me than whatever superficial labels are going to be slapped on my white coat.
It's not like everyone doesn't already encounter this...not a single freakin person in my family knew what a DO was except 1 or 2 that were in the medical field, and their impression: DOs are the same thing as MDs, so who cares. So I've only encountered 2 types of people: DOs , MDs, and other health care professionals that told me DOs are the same thing, and friends / family who had no idea what the hell "The DO Difference" is...they know now, because I tell them: It's nothing.

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Right on homeboy! OSU, I believe the reason people start flaming on these forums is when people like yourself say such ignorant statements. The OP just wanted to get some discussion going and then you post your typical "this is the way it is, THE END!" Come on dude. You don't need to post on every single thread on this site. Sit back, read, learn, and post contructively.

deezballas said:

Right on homeboy! OSU, I believe the reason people start flaming on these forums is when people like yourself say such ignorant statements. The OP just wanted to get some discussion going and then you post your typical "this is the way it is, THE END!" Come on dude. You don't need to post on every single thread on this site. Sit back, read, learn, and post contructively.

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It's less of a discussion and more of the complaining, as usual.

OSUdoc08 said:

It's less of a discussion and more of the complaining, as usual.

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It's discussion, then little arguments get going back and forth, less thought, mroe emotion...brush it off as complaining, but the true feelings of many students are expressed on these threads, and you can't discount them as 'whiney rants' because they're not in line with AOA politics.

homeboy said:

Well, sorry to block your 'slam dunk,' dude, but I fail to see why you have a big "gotcha!" by asking the ad hominem, "Why are you a DO if you 'reject' OMT?" First, I would say I don't 'reject' it, and neither do most of the people you would lump into that category, they just don't buy into everything hook line and sinker because the AOA and OMM profs pump you full of crap like, "You're special, you're a DO." You went to DMU...you know exactly the poeple I'm talking about--you may feel differently, that's fine, but a silent majority of us don't buy the crap. We just want to be physicians, and for whatever personal / academic / location reasons, DO school is what worked out. Why am I a DO? Because for all intent and purpose, I'm going to be a doctor, and that is more important to me than whatever superficial labels are going to be slapped on my white coat.
It's not like everyone doesn't already encounter this...not a single freakin person in my family knew what a DO was except 1 or 2 that were in the medical field, and their impression: DOs are the same thing as MDs, so who cares. So I've only encountered 2 types of people: DOs , MDs, and other health care professionals that told me DOs are the same thing, and friends / family who had no idea what the hell "The DO Difference" is...they know now, because I tell them: It's nothing.

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1. The best answer you have is regarding the difference is "It's Nothing"?, that is not only creative, but very well thought out. In addition, you will look like an a** to the patients, your MD collegues, and pt.'s families.

2. The 'slam dunk' is realted to my take on things, not yours, so you can't 'block it'. I know why I am distinct, I practice what I preach, and I strive to excell in all areas of training offered to me. Pt.'s, families, and collegues fully undertsand my explanantion of the difference, and MD's and DO's alike seek me out when they or their pt's are in need of an evaluation regarding OMM/OMT.

3. I tried to emphasize in my post that I do not hold those who reject OMM as less of a DO, we all have some way in which we can use our osteopathic training to be unique and offer something more to your pt.'s. How could I expect a DO pathologist to use OMT???? However, they should be able to use their more complete knownledge of MSK anatomy to their advantage, etc., or any other number of ways our training is different. This also could be as simple as: "I never was very good at OMM, but, Ms. Smith, I think it would help you based on my exam so I will refer to to my (sparring) partner Dr. Macman"

4. You're right, I'm from DMU, I believe I mentioned our common school on another post when you were making negative comments about the OMM dept. I explained that I thought you misrepresented several aspects of lectures/faculty statements. I understand your frustration regarding other things, like lack of incorporation of EBM into lectures, but their job is to prep you for COMLEX, and DMU is second to none in that regard. Maybe you should volunteer to give a lecture that addressing some things you find lacking, since this is such a passionate issue for you. If you chose to listen and learn from them and THEN after some clinical experience filter away what you find to be wrong, you will be well served, at the least on COMLEX.


5. When and where did I say I accepted anything 'hook, line sinker', in fact, I spent much of my time at DMU involved in national AOA/AAO meetings advocating for much of our mutual frustrations. Besides venting here, what are you doing?

macman said:

1. The best answer you have is regarding the difference is "It's Nothing"?, that is not only creative, but very well thought out. In addition, you will look like an a** to the patients, your MD collegues, and pt.'s families.

2. The 'slam dunk' is realted to my take on things, not yours, so you can't 'block it'. I know why I am distinct, I practice what I preach, and I strive to excell in all areas of training offered to me. Pt.'s, families, and collegues fully undertsand my explanantion of the difference, and MD's and DO's alike seek me out when they or their pt's are in need of an evaluation regarding OMM/OMT.

3. I tried to emphasize in my post that I do not hold those who reject OMM as less of a DO, we all have some way in which we can use our osteopathic training to be unique and offer something more to your pt.'s. How could I expect a DO pathologist to use OMT???? However, they should be able to use their more complete knownledge of MSK anatomy to their advantage, etc., or any other number of ways our training is different. This also could be as simple as: "I never was very good at OMM, but, Ms. Smith, I think it would help you based on my exam so I will refer to to my (sparring) partner Dr. Macman"

4. You're right, I'm from DMU, I believe I mentioned our common school on another post when you were making negative comments about the OMM dept. I explained that I thought you misrepresented several aspects of lectures/faculty statements. I understand your frustration regarding other things, like lack of incorporation of EBM into lectures, but their job is to prep you for COMLEX, and DMU is second to none in that regard. Maybe you should volunteer to give a lecture that addressing some things you find lacking, since this is such a passionate issue for you. If you chose to listen and learn from them and THEN after some clinical experience filter away what you find to be wrong, you will be well served, at the least on COMLEX.


5. When and where did I say I accepted anything 'hook, line sinker', in fact, I spent much of my time at DMU involved in national AOA/AAO meetings advocating for much of our mutual frustrations. Besides venting here, what are you doing?

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What do you expect when you ask ridiculous questions like "what do you tell yourself" when asked why you're a DO and have chosen to "reject" OMT...
Like I said, I'm not losing any sleep over it...I don't tell myself anything other than what I already said. And I dispute the notion that somehow my response of "nothing" is not well-thought out or makes me look like an "a**"... Like I said..I was pretty much told what a DO was before I went here, in terms of what a DO is in the eyes of other health care professionals. So unless all of the people who think DOs are just like any other doctor are all "a**holes", it's rather pathetic trying to degrade me on the argument that I don't regurgitate the AOA's description of a DO.
Also, I'm curious as to what the "...other number of ways our training is different" are...

So much time wasted jibber jabbering back and forth...When you're in the hospital and practicing medicine the reality is....who gives a sh&t. Besides, the DO's that specialize in OMM have a lot of free time....and money. When is the last time somebody got called into the ER for a somatic dysfunction? It's not advertised, but believe me a cash practice like OMM is keeping some of these "OMM Specialist" in a pretty comfortable lifestyle. I'm sure that's not the case with all OMM people...but the few that I've seen do very well here in south florida. All this back and forth...It's a lot like two rookies coming into an NFL training camp. One rookie looks at the other and says "Where do you go to school?"
The rookie replies, "The university of texas, national champs. How about you?"

Other rookie, "Middle Tennessee State University. we went 5-5 last year."

The truth is when the two rookies get out on the playing field it doesn't really matter if they went to Texas or Middle Tennessee State...if you can't hack it you'll be cut. Jerry Rice went to middle tennessee state and he had a decent career didn't he? Do you honestly think real doctors sit around in the hosptial and discuss this sh@t?

If you want to Learn OMM go DO, if not go MD. I dont think MDs should be allowed to 'specialize' in OMM per se.

Mike2010 said:

If you want to Learn OMM go DO, if not go MD. I dont think MDs should be allowed to 'specialize' in OMM per se.

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How are people supposed to even know what OMM is before they apply when DOs aren't even practicing it? Unless you come from a state / city that has a high percentage of DOs, that proposition isn't likely.

homeboy said:

What do you expect when you ask ridiculous questions like "what do you tell yourself" when asked why you're a DO and have chosen to "reject" OMT...
Like I said, I'm not losing any sleep over it...I don't tell myself anything other than what I already said. And I dispute the notion that somehow my response of "nothing" is not well-thought out or makes me look like an "a**"... Like I said..I was pretty much told what a DO was before I went here, in terms of what a DO is in the eyes of other health care professionals. So unless all of the people who think DOs are just like any other doctor are all "a**holes", it's rather pathetic trying to degrade me on the argument that I don't regurgitate the AOA's description of a DO.
Also, I'm curious as to what the "...other number of ways our training is different" are...

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There is a distinction to be made between the two fields being legally equivalent and "the same". By saying to your pt.'s they are 'the same' insults everyone's intelligence. In terms of your question at the end, I think that is one you could answer for yourself if you chose to look into it. You also did not really answer many questions I had for you-most notably-what you are actually doing to solve the problems you have with OMM, the AOA, the profession, etc.

homeboy said:

Seriously, man, you need to grow up. If you polled students and asked them how many applied to both allo and osteo, I think you'd find it's quite a high percentage. What pre-med student in their right mind would LIMIT their chances by only applying to osteo schools? Even more so, the number of students that turn down MD acceptances to go DO is VERY low, and it's merely a reflection of how the interview process went, not the supposedly inherent differences between MD and DO.
I'm not afraid to admit it: I applied to MD and DO...waitlists and personal circumstances didn't favor the MD route, so I came here...not as a last-ditch effort or fall back, but as the option that worked out best.

If you want to make the distinction between DO students that ONLY wanted to be DOs versus DO students that just want to be physicians, it's not even going to be close...and I fail to see why you try to point out that you're somehow a 'better' DO student because you had no inclings to go MD...if anything, it shows how narrowminded of an undergrad you were.

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Seriously, you need to calm down. You are way out of line. I don't appreciate the implication that DO is "just another option." There are distinct differences in the MD vs DO curriculum and philosophy. I AM only applying to DO schools, and quite frankly I pity those who go to MD schools and don't ever gain exposure to OMM and other DO tools of the trade. More to the point, I guess, I pity the poor patients who go to doctors and are treated like a walking case of symptoms. I DO think it makes you a better physician to know more than just how to fill out a prescription and it’s FAR from narrowmindedness that led me to DO. That's probably as far from truth and logic as you can get. It's poor attitudes like this that disrespect everything that DO stands for. You make me sad.

macman said:

1. The best answer you have is regarding the difference is "It's Nothing"?, that is not only creative, but very well thought out. In addition, you will look like an a** to the patients, your MD collegues, and pt.'s families.

2. The 'slam dunk' is realted to my take on things, not yours, so you can't 'block it'. I know why I am distinct, I practice what I preach, and I strive to excell in all areas of training offered to me. Pt.'s, families, and collegues fully undertsand my explanantion of the difference, and MD's and DO's alike seek me out when they or their pt's are in need of an evaluation regarding OMM/OMT.

3. I tried to emphasize in my post that I do not hold those who reject OMM as less of a DO, we all have some way in which we can use our osteopathic training to be unique and offer something more to your pt.'s. How could I expect a DO pathologist to use OMT???? However, they should be able to use their more complete knownledge of MSK anatomy to their advantage, etc., or any other number of ways our training is different. This also could be as simple as: "I never was very good at OMM, but, Ms. Smith, I think it would help you based on my exam so I will refer to to my (sparring) partner Dr. Macman"

4. You're right, I'm from DMU, I believe I mentioned our common school on another post when you were making negative comments about the OMM dept. I explained that I thought you misrepresented several aspects of lectures/faculty statements. I understand your frustration regarding other things, like lack of incorporation of EBM into lectures, but their job is to prep you for COMLEX, and DMU is second to none in that regard. Maybe you should volunteer to give a lecture that addressing some things you find lacking, since this is such a passionate issue for you. If you chose to listen and learn from them and THEN after some clinical experience filter away what you find to be wrong, you will be well served, at the least on COMLEX.


5. When and where did I say I accepted anything 'hook, line sinker', in fact, I spent much of my time at DMU involved in national AOA/AAO meetings advocating for much of our mutual frustrations. Besides venting here, what are you doing?

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VERY WELL SAID!!

Yes_I_DO said:

Seriously, you need to calm down. You are way out of line. I don't appreciate the implication that DO is "just another option." There are distinct differences in the MD vs DO curriculum and philosophy. I AM only applying to DO schools, and quite frankly I pity those who go to MD schools and don't ever gain exposure to OMM and other DO tools of the trade. More to the point, I guess, I pity the poor patients who go to doctors and are treated like a walking case of symptoms. I DO think it makes you a better physician to know more than just how to fill out a prescription and it’s FAR from narrowmindedness that led me to DO. That's probably as far from truth and logic as you can get. It's poor attitudes like this that disrespect everything that DO stands for. You make me sad.

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I love it when the pre-med'ers come on here and talk as if they have a clue as to what's going on...
I'm confused as to how you know all this... You attest to the "DO difference" but--and correct me if I'm wrong--you haven't even started school yet. You pity the MDs? Wow...that attitude will get you far in a profession dominated by MDs. If you have the mentality that you're better than everyone just because you're a DO, you're going to make alot of enemies.
I am way out of line? I'm speaking with at least a few years of experiencing DO education, reading AOA publications, and putting up with AOA political crap...your naive and arrogant view is why this profession is where it is: people like you think DOs are inherently better physicians because of what the AOA tells you, not because of your individual abilities.
Macman, congratulations for having this person on your side...he/she is really strengthening your argument...

And to Macman... If you're going to say there are "a number of ways we are different," I expect you to back that up, not just defer to the "you know what I'm talking about" bit...

And what am I doing? What do you think a soon-2-be 3rd year student is doing? Studying for boards...with occasional SDN breaks. Even if I wanted to do something, do I have the time or--more importantly--the clout to make more than a whisper in the AOA's ear? Trust me...I'm in this profession for the long haul...but I'm not one of those people who just bit**es from the sidelines... I think discussing these issues with DO students from across the country is a pretty good start: it helps me see where my arguments are weak / strong, and what kind of arguments people are using to counter.
I spent a fair amount of time writing that 'critical review of osteopathy' article several threads back, and I've gotten more hits on that than I would have had readers through a mere school paper. And since, I've been engaged in emails back and forth with students, as well as faculty (even an OMM professor), who agreed with many of the points I made.

When I've got OMM faculty telling me I'm right, than there's a pretty good sign something is wrong...

medicine1 said:

By your quote here, you assume that once a person applies to an MD school, gets in, and receives his or her MD degree that they are locked out of the knowledge or the ability to use/utilize OMT and or the Osteopathic Tenents that were used before Dr. Still wrote them all down. Lets look at people as people. If your brother or sister went to an MD school because of location, costs, family, etc., then why should that person be shunned, and believed to be stupid and naive, when really they are your equal, and can learn OMT, and Osteopathic tenents, just like learning Neurology, or endocrinology. Why is it that once a person goes to an MD school they are shut out of Neuromusculoskeletal medicine?

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I'm glad you asked. I'm actually not one of those DO fanatics that thinks "my way or the highway." I highly respect most MDs. The thing I love about DO is that it incorporates other perspectives into the curriculum. It’s the wholistic, person-centered treatment of the DO curriculum that sets it apart from that of the MD curriculum. That said, I acknowledge that MDs can (and at times, do) get exposure to alternatives such as OMT and the like. I further acknowledge that a person can get a DO education and still push meds and be impersonal. So, what I was trying to convey (admittedly poorly) in my previous post was that I pity those MDs (and patients of those MDs) that do not consider things outside of pharmaceuticals; not that all MDs can’t or don’t use alternative. I firmly believe that it is in the patients’ best interest to use what works while doing the least amount of harm possible. Some of those solutions come from medicine, some from OMT, etc. Why can’t we all just get along?