what are top d.o. schools?

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bigdog8829 said:
I think CCOM should be at the top of the list with others. yes i am biased bc i will be attending CCOM. I did also interivew at DMU and the oppurtunities during years 3/4 did not impress me very much. The clinical oppurtunities CCOM seemed much better to me. The facilities at DMU are nicer, yes. But besides years 1+2, when are you going to use them?

*Looking through the 2006 CCOM match list. 11 students matched into an Anesthesiology residency (most of them allopathic)*
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I'll throw my $0.02 in on the CCOM - DMU debate:

After interviewing at CCOM, it moved from the top of my list to the bottom. They may have a long tradition, but the basic science years were nothing special compared to other programs, especially in clinical skills development (e.g. no patient sims, OMM didn't seem as strong as some other programs, and basically no standout clinical skills training program/tools). As for years 3 and 4, I see no difference in quality of rotations compared to other schools. CCOM's supposed "edge" in years 3 and 4 is that rotation sites are in Chicago, but the fact is the majority of their sites are located in outlying suburbs of Chicago. In fact, there were very few sites in Chicago proper according to the handout they gave us of sites at the interview.

To me DMU was a stronger program because of the ability to either rotate in Des Moines and not have to move, or to rotate through the Ohio or Michigan OPTIs, which are quite possibly the best osteopathic rotation programs. Combine that with superb basic science years and focused clinical skills labs in everything from optho to cardio, not to mention the surgical skills lab and the new patient sim program. This provides excellent preparation for DMU students to enter their clinical years at some of the strongest sites in the country.

If you're looking for a strong program, it's really what fits you best. Of the programs I interviewed at, I would say some strong programs are:

DMU
UNECOM
KCOM
NOVA

Again, this is based on programs I have visited. I cannot really speak on behalf of those I did not visit/interview because I really have no clue what they're all about.
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bigdog8829 said:
I think CCOM should be at the top of the list with others. yes i am biased bc i will be attending CCOM. I did also interivew at DMU and the oppurtunities during years 3/4 did not impress me very much. The clinical oppurtunities CCOM seemed much better to me. The facilities at DMU are nicer, yes. But besides years 1+2, when are you going to use them?

*Looking through the 2006 CCOM match list. 11 students matched into an Anesthesiology residency (most of them allopathic)*
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CCOM does have some great rotations from what I understand but when you consider the amount of residency oppurtunities in the Ohio, Michigan area DMU looks better and better as they have VERY strong affiliations with this region and match well in competative specialties not just in the midwest but thoughout the US.
 
This debate will be never-ending since all the people planning to go to DMU will post about the awesome program at DMU, and all the people planning to go to CCOM will post about the awesome program at CCOM.

DMU is better represented on SDN, so it usually wins on this forum.

DMU and CCOM are both great schools, IMHO. We need to get over ourselves.
 
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KeyLime said:
This debate will be never-ending since all the people planning to go to DMU will post about the awesome program at DMU, and all the people planning to go to CCOM will post about the awesome program at CCOM.

DMU is better represented on SDN, so it usually wins on this forum.

DMU and CCOM are both great schools, IMHO. We need to get over ourselves.
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well thats the thing...many of the people that are going to or are currently attending DMU also had a chance to interview and take an acceptance at CCOM but choose DMU for their own reasons...so even though it would seem bias, they initially had a choice between both schools and saw something else better at DMU and are just relating their own experiences...Now if you got rejected by CCOM and are now attending DMU and are constantly harping about how much better DMU is, then I see a definite bias in that situation, but I dont think this is the case in most of these responses
 
Pansit said:
well thats the thing...many of the people that are going to or are currently attending DMU also had a chance to interview and take an acceptance at CCOM but choose DMU for their own reasons...so even though it would seem bias, they initially had a choice between both schools and saw something else better at DMU and are just relating their own experiences...Now if you got rejected by CCOM and are now attending DMU and are constantly harping about how much better DMU is, then I see a definite bias in that situation, but I dont think this is the case in most of these responses
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Some people visit both schools and choose CCOM. I know of several examples of people that I know personally who picked CCOM over DMU. They just don't post on the forum. DMU is $10,000 a year cheaper than CCOM, and that's the only good argument I can make pro or con since I haven't attended either school yet.
 
Boner said:
especially in clinical skills development (e.g. no patient sims, OMM didn't seem as strong as some other programs, and basically no standout clinical skills training program/tools).
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I've yet to see any program have great clinical skill classes in the first 2 years. and the pt simulators and pt models were nothing but a waste of my time, IMHO.
 
Concrete facts do not come from the opinion of premeds. None of us have attended either program so all that we can regurgitate is what others have felt and what the admissions departments sell us.

I asked for facts. It was supposed that DMU>CCOM and I challenged anyone to show me proof. No where in my statement did I say that I felt CCOM is better... simply that I thought that the CCOM rotations were better. I made no qualitative judgement on either school. I was criticizing the one already made by others. Bottom line, your judgement of DMU vs CCOM was based on your interview day that is really a lot of smoke and mirrors...
 
You people need to step back and read the OP again.

The top DO school is in Maine. Really, you can't get more on top than that.
 
MaximusD said:
Concrete facts do not come from the opinion of premeds. None of us have attended either program so all that we can regurgitate is what others have felt and what the admissions departments sell us.
Bottom line, your judgement of DMU vs CCOM was based on your interview day that is really a lot of smoke and mirrors...
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Thank You!:D
 
Boner said:
I'll throw my $0.02 in on the CCOM - DMU debate:
After interviewing at CCOM, it moved from the top of my list to the bottom. They may have a long tradition, but the basic science years were nothing special compared to other programs, especially in clinical skills development (e.g. no patient sims, OMM didn't seem as strong as some other programs, and basically no standout clinical skills training program/tools).

Combine that with superb basic science years and focused clinical skills labs in everything from optho to cardio, not to mention the surgical skills lab and the new patient sim program. This provides excellent preparation for DMU students to enter their clinical years at some of the strongest sites in the country.
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Honestly, if these things were that important for a great education in year 1 & 2, don't you think that every school would have them?? Sure, they are fun & exciting & probably provide a little extra preparation, but students from every school enter year 3 & 4 with enough of what they need to move forward. If everyone needed to learn sterile technique before starting clinical rotations, all schools would teach it - these are really not significant enhancements. It is what a school offers in years 3 & 4 that are more important.

And for many, many students, if a school offers stability of location for those clinical years, and at good locations, this is far more valuable than whether they know how to suture since they won't be allowed to do much if any as a 3rd year student ANYway. A lot of people don't really want to be moving around the country several times and wondering what part of the country they will HAVE to go to in order to complete their required rotations, which is different from choosing electives where you DO want to be.
 
Orthodoc40 said:
Honestly, if these things were that important for a great education in year 1 & 2, don't you think that every school would have them?? Sure, they are fun & exciting & probably provide a little extra preparation, but students from every school enter year 3 & 4 with enough of what they need to move forward. If everyone needed to learn sterile technique before starting clinical rotations, all schools would teach it - these are really not significant enhancements. It is what a school offers in years 3 & 4 that are more important.

And for many, many students, if a school offers stability of location for those clinical years, and at good locations, this is far more valuable than whether they know how to suture since they won't be allowed to do much if any as a 3rd year student ANYway. A lot of people don't really want to be moving around the country several times and wondering what part of the country they will HAVE to go to in order to complete their required rotations, which is different from choosing electives where you DO want to be.
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Ahh...this is where you might be mistaken...years 3 and 4 are the most important in becoming a good doctor...but years 1 and 2 is very important to step I of USMLE or COMLEX...w/o the proper score you cant get the residency you want...unless of course you are contempt with the less competitive ones, but do u really know which residency you want before year 3? A very good base in basic medical sciences are important because it is the base of everything else you will know...w/o a proper grasp of the first two years, the rest of med school will be a challenge...that is my opinion
 
Pansit said:
Ahh...this is where you might be mistaken...years 3 and 4 are the most important in becoming a good doctor...but years 1 and 2 is very important to step I of USMLE or COMLEX...w/o the proper score you cant get the residency you want...unless of course you are contempt with the less competitive ones, but do u really know which residency you want before year 3? A very good base in basic medical sciences are important because it is the base of everything else you will know...w/o a proper grasp of the first two years, the rest of med school will be a challenge...that is my opinion
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I think what we've been trying to say is not meant to belittle the importance of yrs 1 and 2. Rather, it's to underscore that most of yrs 1 and 2 are independent study with lecture reinforcement. this is very different from 3 and 4 which are extremely varying between DO schools... These years make a large impact on how you perform as a doctor.
 
You will be prepared to enter years 3 and 4 wherever you end up. The difference, to me, is some of the "bells and whistles". You are only on rotation for 4-8 weeks (some have a 12 week IM block). When it comes time for recommendation writing, are the attendings and residents going to remember the kid they had to teach sterile technique, suturing, etc... or the kid who came in and was a more functional part of the health care team rather than someone who needed their hand held a lot of the time. I'm not saying any school is going to prepare you to be a self-sufficient care giver, but those schools that prepare you well for clinical years give you the edge when going in to years 3 and 4, which I agree are the most important.

Again, to the OP: Go wherever you think you are going to get the best education. One person's CCOM is another person's DMU :D
 
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Pansit said:
Ahh...this is where you might be mistaken...years 3 and 4 are the most important in becoming a good doctor...but years 1 and 2 is very important to step I of USMLE or COMLEX...w/o the proper score you cant get the residency you want...unless of course you are contempt with the less competitive ones, but do u really know which residency you want before year 3? A very good base in basic medical sciences are important because it is the base of everything else you will know...w/o a proper grasp of the first two years, the rest of med school will be a challenge...that is my opinion
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The point is, year 1 & 2 are going to prepare you essentially the same wherever you go.
 
Boner said:
You will be prepared to enter years 3 and 4 wherever you end up. The difference, to me, is some of the "bells and whistles". You are only on rotation for 4-8 weeks (some have a 12 week IM block). When it comes time for recommendation writing, are the attendings and residents going to remember the kid they had to teach sterile technique, suturing, etc... or the kid who came in and was a more functional part of the health care team rather than someone who needed their hand held a lot of the time. I'm not saying any school is going to prepare you to be a self-sufficient care giver, but those schools that prepare you well for clinical years give you the edge when going in to years 3 and 4, which I agree are the most important.

Again, to the OP: Go wherever you think you are going to get the best education. One person's CCOM is another person's DMU :D
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Definitely agree with your last statement.

Attendings & residents aren't going to be teaching you sterile technique anyway - more likely, a scrub nurse or circulating nurse is going to grab you before you get in there and show you all you need to know. So they aren't going to be evaluating whether you know this ahead of time or not - seriously. They aren't expecting a med student to be a functional part of anything. :laugh: Year 1 & 2 is supposed to prepare you for the boards first. All my physician friends have made it clear that you learn as you go in the clinical years.
 
Kuba said:
Allergy and Immunology: 2 years
Cardiology: 3 years
Cardiology/Cardiac Electrophysiology: 4 years
Cardiology/Interventional Cardiology: 4 years
Critical Care Medicine: 2 years
Endocrinology: 2 years
Geriatric Medicine: 2 years
Gastroenterology: 3 years
Gastroenterology/Hepatology: 4 years
Hematology: 2 years
Hematology/Oncology: 3 years
Infectious Diseases: 2 years
Medical Genetics: 2-4 years
Nephrology: 2 years
Oncology: 2 years
Pulmonary: 2 years
Pulmonary/Critical Care: 3 years
Rheumatology: 2 years
Sports Medicine: 1 year
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From what I understand, CCM is 3 yrs after an IM residency (after other residencies, it is less)
 
I first wanted to say i know nothing about DMU, so i can't compare ccom with dmu, but i just wanted to add some clarification that the ccom sites listed on the handout during interview day are only some of the sites and not all. Also, being from the burbs i can vouch that the hospitals here are top notch. As an example Advocate Health Care is one of the major non-profit hospital groups in the northern illinois area with 8 hospitals (3 of which are teaching hospitals) and 2 children's hospitasl throughout northern illinois...most people not from the area are unfamiliar with them, but they are some of the best. in fact, one of the hospitals was awarded top 5% in the nation and the 2007 distinguished hospital award for clinical excellence by HealthGrades.

Its understandably hard to compare clinical educations among schools when the sites are unfamiliar to us..i've heard great things about both dmu and ccom and i think it is wise to pick where we feel most comfortable :)

Boner said:
I'll throw my $0.02 in on the CCOM - DMU debate:

After interviewing at CCOM, it moved from the top of my list to the bottom. They may have a long tradition, but the basic science years were nothing special compared to other programs, especially in clinical skills development (e.g. no patient sims, OMM didn't seem as strong as some other programs, and basically no standout clinical skills training program/tools). As for years 3 and 4, I see no difference in quality of rotations compared to other schools. CCOM's supposed "edge" in years 3 and 4 is that rotation sites are in Chicago, but the fact is the majority of their sites are located in outlying suburbs of Chicago. In fact, there were very few sites in Chicago proper according to the handout they gave us of sites at the interview.

To me DMU was a stronger program because of the ability to either rotate in Des Moines and not have to move, or to rotate through the Ohio or Michigan OPTIs, which are quite possibly the best osteopathic rotation programs. Combine that with superb basic science years and focused clinical skills labs in everything from optho to cardio, not to mention the surgical skills lab and the new patient sim program. This provides excellent preparation for DMU students to enter their clinical years at some of the strongest sites in the country.

If you're looking for a strong program, it's really what fits you best. Of the programs I interviewed at, I would say some strong programs are:

DMU
UNECOM
KCOM
NOVA

Again, this is based on programs I have visited. I cannot really speak on behalf of those I did not visit/interview because I really have no clue what they're all about.
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Yikes! No one has really mentioned KCUMB! You're starting to make me a little worried! :eek:
 
BradenDO said:
Yikes! No one has really mentioned KCUMB! You're starting me a little worried! :eek:
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The thread ended up in a DMU vs. CCOM debate which I wish I wouldn't have contributed to.

If you like KCUMB, that's all that matters! I haven't visited the school myself, but I know others who are very happy with their education there.
 
BradenDO said:
Yikes! No one has really mentioned KCUMB! You're starting me a little worried! :eek:
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no need to be worried. this thread is :thumbdown:. I have heard great things about KCUMB. Look at Packymylase. He got into a lot of great schools and chose KCUMB.

IMO, all the state-supported schools are on top along with PCOM. Then KCUMB, CCOM, NOVA, NYCOM, DMU, KCOM.
 
I know that this statement will probably get a lot of people going but, aside from the brand new schools who are in their inaugural year or have not graduated a class yet, is there really THAT much difference between any of the established osteopathic schools? Obviously there will be discrepancies here and there but are there any glaring differences?
 
CTrainSJU said:
I know that this statement will probably get a lot of people going but, aside from the brand new schools who are in their inaugural year or have not graduated a class yet, is there really THAT much difference between any of the established osteopathic schools? Obviously there will be discrepancies here and there but are there any glaring differences?
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well, research money is a huge difference between some schools. Top allopathic universities bring in the most $$ in NIH grants. Top osteopathic universitites should also. A great medical university should be a leader in medical research and should attract top-notch faculty that are leaders and pioneers in their fields. Most osteopathic schools don't do that and that is why I think the state schools, especially MSU and UMDNJ, are the top schools.
 
Kuba said:
well, research money is a huge difference between some schools. Top allopathic universities bring in the most $$ in NIH grants. Top osteopathic universitites should also. A great medical university should be a leader in medical research and should attract top-notch faculty that are leaders and pioneers in their fields. Most osteopathic schools don't do that and that is why I think the state schools, especially MSU and UMDNJ, are the top schools.
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I'm not trying to disagree with you, Kuba, but just how does the amount of money a school gets towards research have anything to do with the education that a student receives while attending that school? It isn't like that research money goes to students. Most of the time, the classroom educational part of school is separate from the clinical education part of school, is separate from the research part of a school.
 
Orthodoc40 said:
I'm not trying to disagree with you, Kuba, but just how does the amount of money a school gets towards research have anything to do with the education that a student receives while attending that school? It isn't like that research money goes to students. Most of the time, the classroom educational part of school is separate from the clinical education part of school, is separate from the research part of a school.
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Research is a priority for DrKuba (sorry, it's just Kuba now!), so that's something he's going to look for when comparing potential schools.
 
Orthodoc40 said:
I'm not trying to disagree with you, Kuba, but just how does the amount of money a school gets towards research have anything to do with the education that a student receives while attending that school? It isn't like that research money goes to students.
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you are absolutely right. Research money does not directly affect one's education. But would you agree that Harvard, Yale, etc are the best universities in the country? They probably don't have the best instructors persay, but they have the leaders of society, the top researchers, etc. Students want to learn from these indivuduals. Research money is a way to gauge how influential a school is. A school that has enough top-notch faculty and polictical pull can attract more NIH-grants that schools that hire regular docs that decided to do some teaching.
 
BradenDO said:
Yikes! No one has really mentioned KCUMB! You're starting me a little worried! :eek:
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Braden, that's not true. In fact, someone on the first page of this thread mentioned that KCUMB was the greatest osteopathic medical school in the GALAXY!
 
Packamylase said:
Research is a priority for DrKuba (sorry, it's just Kuba now!), so that's something he's going to look for when comparing potential schools.
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yea, but it's not even about my personal interst in actually doing research. I don't know. Whether I am right or wrong, I believe in order to be considered a top school, that school should be pulling in big research bucks.
 
Kuba said:
no need to be worried. this thread is :thumbdown:. I have heard great things about KCUMB. Look at Packymylase. He got into a lot of great schools and chose KCUMB.

IMO, all the state-supported schools are on top along with PCOM. Then KCUMB, CCOM, NOVA, NYCOM, DMU, KCOM.
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Thanks for the shout-out, Kuba. It's true that there are a lot of great D.O. programs and everyone needs to find the program at which that they feel the most "at-home".

KCUMB really is a great program in my opinion, and I liked everything about the school and the location, except for the large class size. In the end, I chose proximity to family (my family is from the midwest) and my gut-feeling (coupled with all the good things that I know and hear about KCUMB) and chose KCUMB over KCOM (too rural) and UMDNJ-SOM (they pronounce tournament as "toy-nament" - weird.). I liked all three schools, but would have been happy at NOVA, too, my first acceptance.
 
Kuba said:
you are absolutely right. Research money does not directly affect one's education. But would you agree that Harvard, Yale, etc are the best universities in the country? They probably don't have the best instructors persay, but they have the leaders of society, the top researchers, etc. Students want to learn from these indivuduals. Research money is a way to gauge how influential a school is. A school that has enough top-notch faculty and polictical pull can attract more NIH-grants that schools that hire regular docs that decided to do some teaching.
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No, I really wouldn't agree that Harvard, Yale, etc. are the best universities in the country. They lead in the ability to solicit the most amount of research money. Period. I simply do not equate research funding with education.

I've spent over 300 hours in the OR with HMS faculty, residents & students. Brilliant people, brilliant teachers - but I am certain the HMS students are not getting the best medical school education a med student could get.

The students there all told me similar things about their school. This great faculty that you claim is attracted to the school because of funding, spends their days oblivious to students unless they are also interested in the faculty member's obscure research project, of course. They all basically are teaching themselves, in the absence of the faculty's interest - for the most part. And that's what a lot of research funding for a school gets you.
 
redsoxfan said:
there's no way those mcat scores are updated for 2006
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I'm not sure but they are probably from 04 or 05. On the bottom of the page it states that they were revised on March 13 of 06. I would guess they are probably from 04. If that's the case I would imagine all of them have seen an increase in the avg. Speaking for DMU, i can say with some degree of certainty an increase has occurred.
 
I've taken the latest USNWR stats for GPA and MCAT (composite MCAT = MCAT*3)and ranked the schools according to a formula tossed around SDN a lot:

SCORE = (GPA*10) + MCAT


Rank ..School ............. GPA ...MCAT..MCAT ... SCORE
1 ...... TCOM .............. 3.52 ..9.2 ....27.6 ...... 62.8
2 ...... DMU-COM ......... 3.56 ..8.6 ....25.8 ...... 61.4
3 ...... Western/COMP .. 3.45 ..8.9 ....26.7 ...... 61.2
3 ...... UMDNJ-SOM ...... 3.48 ..8.8 ....26.4 ...... 61.2
5 ...... TUCOM-CA ........ 3.45 ..8.8 ....26.4 ...... 60.9
6 ...... NYCOM ............. 3.50 ..8.6 ....25.8 ...... 60.8
6 ...... CCOM ............... 3.50 ..8.6 ....25.8 ...... 60.8
8 ...... MSUCOM ........... 3.49 ..8.5 ....25.5 ...... 60.4
9 ...... NSU-COM .......... 3.42 ..8.3 ....24.9 ...... 59.1
10 .... UNECOM ............ 3.37 ..8.4 ....25.2 ...... 58.9
11 .... PCOM ................ 3.23 ..8.3 ....24.9 ...... 57.2
12 .... VCOM ................ 3.45 ..7.5 ....22.5 ...... 57.0
13 .... LECOM ............... 3.32 ..7.9 ....23.7 ...... 56.9
14 .... WVSOM .............. 3.43 ..7.5 ....22.5 ...... 56.8
15 .... PCSOM ............... 3.30 ..7.3 ....21.9 ...... 54.9
16 .... ACOM ................. N/A ..9.0 ....27.0 ...... 27.0
17 .... KCUMB-COM ......... N/A ..N/A ...N/A ....... N/A

If nothing else, this gives an idea of relative academic caliber of accepted students and relative competitiveness according to raw stats.

It looks like TCOM stands out as most competitve, a full 1.4 points above #2. Number 2-7 are within ~.4 points of each other, so probably not a lot of difference. Also, PCSOM is almost 2 points below the bottom, so much further behind the rest of the pack.
Based on where scores seem to clump together, I'd place them into academic competitive tiers as:

TOP: TCOM
Tier1: DMU-COM, Western/COMP, UMDNJ-SOM, TUCOM-CA, NYCOM, CCOM
Tier2: MSUCOM, NSU-COM, UNECOM
Tier3: PCOM, VCOM, LECOM, WVSOM
BOTTOM: PCSOM

????: ACOM, KCUMB-COM

Tier 1 and Tier 3 are obvious from the score separations. Tier 2 could be more arguable (e.g. maybe we should call MSUCOM Tier1 or Tier1.5).

(Not all schools had stats listed. ACOM had the second highest MCAT, but no GPA listed, but I would guess their GPA must be higher if the MCAT is so high, meaning ACOM could be at the top/tier I if their GPA were available.)
 

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GoodDoctor said:
I've taken the latest USNWR stats for GPA and MCAT (composite MCAT = MCAT*3)and ranked the schools according to a formula tossed around SDN a lot:

SCORE = (GPA*10) + MCAT


Rank ..School ............. GPA ...MCAT..MCAT ... SCORE
1 ...... TCOM .............. 3.52 ..9.2 ....27.6 ...... 62.8
2 ...... DMU-COM ......... 3.56 ..8.6 ....25.8 ...... 61.4
3 ...... Western/COMP .. 3.45 ..8.9 ....26.7 ...... 61.2
3 ...... UMDNJ-SOM ...... 3.48 ..8.8 ....26.4 ...... 61.2
5 ...... TUCOM-CA ........ 3.45 ..8.8 ....26.4 ...... 60.9
6 ...... NYCOM ............. 3.50 ..8.6 ....25.8 ...... 60.8
6 ...... CCOM ............... 3.50 ..8.6 ....25.8 ...... 60.8
8 ...... MSUCOM ........... 3.49 ..8.5 ....25.5 ...... 60.4
9 ...... NSU-COM .......... 3.42 ..8.3 ....24.9 ...... 59.1
10 .... UNECOM ............ 3.37 ..8.4 ....25.2 ...... 58.9
11 .... PCOM ................ 3.23 ..8.3 ....24.9 ...... 57.2
12 .... VCOM ................ 3.45 ..7.5 ....22.5 ...... 57.0
13 .... LECOM ............... 3.32 ..7.9 ....23.7 ...... 56.9
14 .... WVSOM .............. 3.43 ..7.5 ....22.5 ...... 56.8
15 .... PCSOM ............... 3.30 ..7.3 ....21.9 ...... 54.9
16 .... ACOM ................. N/A ..9.0 ....27.0 ...... 27.0
17 .... KCUMB-COM ......... N/A ..N/A ...N/A ....... N/A

If nothing else, this gives an idea of relative academic caliber of accepted students and relative competitiveness according to raw stats.

(Not all schools had stats listed. ACOM had the second highest MCAT, but no GPA listed, but I would guess their GPA must be higher if the MCAT is so high, meaning ACOM could be at the top if their GPA were available.)
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Actually, DMU (Class of 2010) had an MCAT of 26.8(may actually be higher than this like 27.1 and I'll check on that) and a GPA of 3.65. FYI.

BTW, class of 2011 should rank higher. We have a great group comming through! Sucks for us (class of 2010) but great for DMU!
 
:thumbup:
GoodDoctor said:
I've taken the latest USNWR stats for GPA and MCAT (composite MCAT = MCAT*3)and ranked the schools according to a formula tossed around SDN a lot:

SCORE = (GPA*10) + MCAT


Rank ..School ............. GPA ...MCAT..MCAT ... SCORE
1 ...... TCOM .............. 3.52 ..9.2 ....27.6 ...... 62.8
2 ...... DMU-COM ......... 3.56 ..8.6 ....25.8 ...... 61.4
3 ...... Western/COMP .. 3.45 ..8.9 ....26.7 ...... 61.2
3 ...... UMDNJ-SOM ...... 3.48 ..8.8 ....26.4 ...... 61.2
5 ...... TUCOM-CA ........ 3.45 ..8.8 ....26.4 ...... 60.9
6 ...... NYCOM ............. 3.50 ..8.6 ....25.8 ...... 60.8
6 ...... CCOM ............... 3.50 ..8.6 ....25.8 ...... 60.8
8 ...... MSUCOM ........... 3.49 ..8.5 ....25.5 ...... 60.4
9 ...... NSU-COM .......... 3.42 ..8.3 ....24.9 ...... 59.1
10 .... UNECOM ............ 3.37 ..8.4 ....25.2 ...... 58.9
11 .... PCOM ................ 3.23 ..8.3 ....24.9 ...... 57.2
12 .... VCOM ................ 3.45 ..7.5 ....22.5 ...... 57.0
13 .... LECOM ............... 3.32 ..7.9 ....23.7 ...... 56.9
14 .... WVSOM .............. 3.43 ..7.5 ....22.5 ...... 56.8
15 .... PCSOM ............... 3.30 ..7.3 ....21.9 ...... 54.9
16 .... ACOM ................. N/A ..9.0 ....27.0 ...... 27.0
17 .... KCUMB-COM ......... N/A ..N/A ...N/A ....... N/A

If nothing else, this gives an idea of relative academic caliber of accepted students and relative competitiveness according to raw stats.

It looks like TCOM stands out as most competitve, a full 1.4 points above #2. Number 2-7 are withing ~.4 points of each other, so probably not a lot of difference. Also, PCSOM is almost 2 points below the bottom, so much further behind the rest of the pack.
Based on this, I'd place them into academic competitive tiers as:

TOP: TCOM
Tier1: DMU-COM, Western/COMP, UMDNJ-SOM, TUCOM-CA, NYCOM, CCOM
Tier2: MSUCOM, NSU-COM, UNECOM
Tier3: PCOM, VCOM, LECOM, WVSOM
BOTTOM: PCSOM

????: ACOM, KCUMB-COM

(Not all schools had stats listed. ACOM had the second highest MCAT, but no GPA listed, but I would guess their GPA must be higher if the MCAT is so high, meaning ACOM could be at the top/tier I if their GPA were available.)
Click to expand...


Thanks for the post!
 
ranking schools based upon their entrance scores makes about as much sense as ranking them based on research dollars....
 
What is ACOM? Is that supposed to be KCOM / ATSU?
 
Taus said:
ranking schools based upon their entrance scores makes about as much sense as ranking them based on research dollars....
Click to expand...
Agreed. This ranking is aweful. PCOM should definitely be near the top of the list; it is one of the oldest osteopathic schools, has great residencies in almost anything (including plastic & recon surgery) and graduates 67% specialists. To rank it as a tier-3 school is a flat out joke.
 
Taus said:
ranking schools based upon their entrance scores makes about as much sense as ranking them based on research dollars....
Click to expand...
Entrance scores are the only OBJECTIVE measure of competitiveness and academic caliber of students. Of course it is not perfect, but it is all we have. You can use these stats to see how you stack up and which schools you may be more competitive at based on numbers. Obviously ECs and LORs and interview will also come into play, but we have no objective way to measure these. Numbers are not worthless, as you seem to claim, but do provide a mildly helpful measure.

Personaly, I think being surrounded by brighter, more academically dedicated students would provide a more enriching educational experience for me. The only way to measure this is through entrance stats. I would also guess that prestige of the school will likely follow stats, just as it generally does for allo schools. Not everyone cares about academic caliber or prestige, so it may not be as important as location or other intangibles. For those who do care about academics and prestige, these numbers are helpful to some degree.
 
GoodDoctor said:
Entrance scores are the only OBJECTIVE measure of competitiveness and academic caliber of students. Of course it is not perfect, but it is all we have. You can use these stats to see how you stack up and which schools you may be more competitive at based on numbers. Obviously ECs and LORs and interview will also come into play, but we have no objective way to measure these. Numbers are not worthless, as you seem to claim, but do provide a mildly helpful measure.

Personaly, I think being surrounded by brighter, more academically dedicated students would provide a more enriching educational experience for me. The only way to measure this is through entrance stats. I would also guess that prestige of the school will likely follow stats, just as it generally does for allo schools. Not everyone cares about academic caliber or prestige, so it may not be as important as location or other intangibles. For those who do care about academics and prestige, these numbers are helpful to some degree.
Click to expand...
If I cared about that stuff I would have gone for a PhD.... an extensive tradition of producing quality physicians who go on to have very successful careers means much more to me....so there's not really objective ways for measuring that....so be it

Adding to that....we may be very different people b/c if I had to associate w/ people all day long who enjoyed pontificating about their academic success and prestige I would slit my throat.....I definitely acknowledge that some people are into that stuff....its just not for everyone
 
Taus said:
ranking schools based upon their entrance scores makes about as much sense as ranking them based on research dollars....
Click to expand...

True.
 
Your assuming that those that do well in school only talk about that. I think that it makes sense to suround yourself with smart people, and to have a school thats been around for a while. I would slit my throat if I was put in that situation too but I would also do the same if I was surounded by idiots. We are assuming to much in any case the ranking above is based on difficulty of admittance. That is not an end all be all, neither is distinguising between % of graduates entering specialty fields compared to primary care. Most of the students that enter medical school will change there mind on what they want to go into anyway. Unless they have been around it all there lives, are going into it for the money ect.. What people are looking for is the combination of prestige, difficulty of admitance, and great match lists. Either way there are students every year that complain about ivy league education and critique it as if it was crap, go to a school that has been around for a while and isn't easy to get into. The reason why I say this is because if its been around for a while they would have worked out most of the kinks in the system (even then its not perfect), difficulty of admitance means a higher caliber student body which does make a big difference on my levels.
 
don't take my previous response literally....I guess I should clarify.....among my friends in school and other people I associate w/....we don't really talk about medicine or other scholarly activity.....when I'm not in class or specifically studying for it I much prefer to talk about the other things in life.....that being said I wouldn't really know where they were in terms of intelligence and could care less
 
PlasticMan said:
Agreed. This ranking is aweful. PCOM should definitely be near the top of the list; it is one of the oldest osteopathic schools, has great residencies in almost anything (including plastic & recon surgery) and graduates 67% specialists. To rank it as a tier-3 school is a flat out joke.
Click to expand...
Note that this is an academic competitiveness ranking for admissions. I'm new to researching DO schools and so put this together to give me an idea of where my stats put me for applying to schools. Also, I'm not married to my "tier" rankings -- it's just another way for me to categorize the data to make it more digestable.

Taus said:
If I cared about that stuff I would have gone for a PhD.... an extensive tradition of producing quality physicians who go on to have very successful careers means much more to me....so there's not really objective ways for measuring that....so be it

Adding to that....we may be very different people b/c if I had to associate w/ people all day long who enjoyed pontificating about their academic success and prestige I would slit my throat.....I definitely acknowledge that some people are into that stuff....its just not for everyone
Click to expand...

LOL. I agree with you. I'm not into being around "people all day long who enjoyed pontificating about their academic success and prestige". But I've been in study groups with bright, top students, and I've been in study groups with less bright, less dedicated students. I've enjoyed the interactions with the brighter students, none of whom happened to be pontificators or braggarts. As I analyze my options, I'd prefer to try for a school that appears to have brighter students, and the only way I've found to measure this is with stats.

To both of you (and everyone else):
I agree that residencies and producing quality physicians is important. Maybe we should do a ranking based on prestige (residency, quality) of schools. USNWR gets scores from peers and residency directors to rate each school. I think if residency directors think your school is great rather than mediocre, it will help your chances of landing a good residency. For example, in my limited DO exposure, everyone seems to talk about PCOM a lot. So, I was surprised to see thier stats at #11 in my ranking. They must be putting out great docs to have thier reputation.

Unfortunately, everyone on this thread so far keeps saying "where you are happiest is the top school", but this does not tell a potential applicant anything about the school to decide to apply there or not. From browsing the threads I get the feeling that PCOM and TCOM are held in high esteem. However, once someone does a ranking, a lot of people get upset. My ranking was just numbers, nothing else, and so they are what they are.

Maybe everyone could rank what they believe to be the top 5-10 schools in different categories for 1) academics, 2) prestige (i.e. tradition of quality), 3) happiness/stress levels, 4) best place to live (or others... best interview experience, best facilities, etc.). I'd be happy to start 4 polls if you guys want (but don't want to if it would just annoy everyone). Then people can view the results from 4 categories to make their own personal ranking for where they would like to apply/matriculate.
 
try this (cut and pasted from the FAQ):

some criteria to help deciding on which schools to apply, interview, matriculate,etc.

some of these may be more important than others and some may not be a factor at all. There is no need to use all.

class size
clinical affiliations
offering of preceptorship or clinical training before 3rd year
board pass rate
distance of clerkships from med school (will you need to find housing...again!)
pre-doctoral fellowships and benefits
post-grad fellowships and residencies offered by the school
PBl vs lecture
on campus library and study locations - (size, computers available, group study rooms, etc.)
recreational facilities (gyms, pool, etc.)
Amount and duration of 4th year electives
research (clinical or lab)
location (weather, social life, urban/rural, safety, etc.)
match list
diversity of faculty/students
cost
availability of fellowships
technology (STAN, wireless, lectures on mp3 or video, etc.)
mission statement of school
exam schedule
grading (pass/fail or pass/fail/honors or letter grades)
clinical grading policy (weight of shelf and evaluations)
are students ranked (does school let you know ranking in percentiles or exact number)
standout faculty
stability of curriculum and amount of input students have in changing it
student organizations/clubs
Opportunities for international medical missions
attrition rate and policies regarding remediation (ie, is it 3 strikes and you're out?)
Related to the boards: Do they teach to the exams or not? Are time off or other reviews methods (Kaplan, etc.) offered in preparation?
typical percentages of grads placing into primary care (worth noting whether you want to do primary care or specialize)?
Dress code and if class attendance is required. can I get away with just wearing scrubs?
what are the students like? Do you see yourself working/getting along with the majority of the people there?
voluntary summer prep program (for advanced standing or jump start)
advanced standing for previous courses
 
GoodDoctor said:
Note that this is an academic competitiveness ranking for admissions. I'm new to researching DO schools and so put this together to give me an idea of where my stats put me for applying to schools. Also, I'm not married to my "tier" rankings -- it's just another way for me to categorize the data to make it more digestable.



LOL. I agree with you. I'm not into being around "people all day long who enjoyed pontificating about their academic success and prestige". But I've been in study groups with bright, top students, and I've been in study groups with less bright, less dedicated students. I've enjoyed the interactions with the brighter students, none of whom happened to be pontificators or braggarts. As I analyze my options, I'd prefer to try for a school that appears to have brighter students, and the only way I've found to measure this is with stats.

To both of you (and everyone else):
I agree that residencies and producing quality physicians is important. Maybe we should do a ranking based on prestige (residency, quality) of schools. USNWR gets scores from peers and residency directors to rate each school. I think if residency directors think your school is great rather than mediocre, it will help your chances of landing a good residency. For example, in my limited DO exposure, everyone seems to talk about PCOM a lot. So, I was surprised to see thier stats at #11 in my ranking. They must be putting out great docs to have thier reputation.

Unfortunately, everyone on this thread so far keeps saying "where you are happiest is the top school", but this does not tell a potential applicant anything about the school to decide to apply there or not. From browsing the threads I get the feeling that PCOM and TCOM are held in high esteem. However, once someone does a ranking, a lot of people get upset. My ranking was just numbers, nothing else, and so they are what they are.

Maybe everyone could rank what they believe to be the top 5-10 schools in different categories for 1) academics, 2) prestige (i.e. tradition of quality), 3) happiness/stress levels, 4) best place to live (or others... best interview experience, best facilities, etc.). I'd be happy to start 4 polls if you guys want (but don't want to if it would just annoy everyone). Then people can view the results from 4 categories to make their own personal ranking for where they would like to apply/matriculate.
Click to expand...

Sorry to revive this thread but someone linked to it.

Keep in mind that that particular class, if reported correctly, has had the lowest GPA average in any recorded year that I can find. After and prior to that year, it appears that PCOM has had consistent mean GPAs upwards of 3.4 cum and 3.3 sci.

Again, sorry to revive.
 
rank them based on graduating scores... let see how the USMLE/COMLEX score comparison... not that 99% of people pass but "what's the score?"

i think that would be a better gauge of TOP school. Umdnj does offer DO/Phd degree but from I know, there is only one faculty receiving a NIH grant.

All this top school is non-sense because everyone has their own opinions. good mcats? good clinicals? good research? To me it comes down to USMLE and COmplex scores...

personally, I would stick with schools that have been established for half a century or so... that said i wanna go to TCOM
 
GoodDoctor said:
I've taken the latest USNWR stats for GPA and MCAT (composite MCAT = MCAT*3)and ranked the schools according to a formula tossed around SDN a lot:

SCORE = (GPA*10) + MCAT


Rank ..School ............. GPA ...MCAT..MCAT ... SCORE
1 ...... TCOM .............. 3.52 ..9.2 ....27.6 ...... 62.8
2 ...... DMU-COM ......... 3.56 ..8.6 ....25.8 ...... 61.4
3 ...... Western/COMP .. 3.45 ..8.9 ....26.7 ...... 61.2
3 ...... UMDNJ-SOM ...... 3.48 ..8.8 ....26.4 ...... 61.2
5 ...... TUCOM-CA ........ 3.45 ..8.8 ....26.4 ...... 60.9
6 ...... NYCOM ............. 3.50 ..8.6 ....25.8 ...... 60.8
6 ...... CCOM ............... 3.50 ..8.6 ....25.8 ...... 60.8
8 ...... MSUCOM ........... 3.49 ..8.5 ....25.5 ...... 60.4
9 ...... NSU-COM .......... 3.42 ..8.3 ....24.9 ...... 59.1
10 .... UNECOM ............ 3.37 ..8.4 ....25.2 ...... 58.9
11 .... PCOM ................ 3.23 ..8.3 ....24.9 ...... 57.2
12 .... VCOM ................ 3.45 ..7.5 ....22.5 ...... 57.0
13 .... LECOM ............... 3.32 ..7.9 ....23.7 ...... 56.9
14 .... WVSOM .............. 3.43 ..7.5 ....22.5 ...... 56.8
15 .... PCSOM ............... 3.30 ..7.3 ....21.9 ...... 54.9
16 .... ACOM ................. N/A ..9.0 ....27.0 ...... 27.0
17 .... KCUMB-COM ......... N/A ..N/A ...N/A ....... N/A

If nothing else, this gives an idea of relative academic caliber of accepted students and relative competitiveness according to raw stats.

It looks like TCOM stands out as most competitve, a full 1.4 points above #2. Number 2-7 are within ~.4 points of each other, so probably not a lot of difference. Also, PCSOM is almost 2 points below the bottom, so much further behind the rest of the pack.
Based on where scores seem to clump together, I'd place them into academic competitive tiers as:

TOP: TCOM
Tier1: DMU-COM, Western/COMP, UMDNJ-SOM, TUCOM-CA, NYCOM, CCOM
Tier2: MSUCOM, NSU-COM, UNECOM
Tier3: PCOM, VCOM, LECOM, WVSOM
BOTTOM: PCSOM

????: ACOM, KCUMB-COM

Tier 1 and Tier 3 are obvious from the score separations. Tier 2 could be more arguable (e.g. maybe we should call MSUCOM Tier1 or Tier1.5).

(Not all schools had stats listed. ACOM had the second highest MCAT, but no GPA listed, but I would guess their GPA must be higher if the MCAT is so high, meaning ACOM could be at the top/tier I if their GPA were available.)
Click to expand...

Just wondering why you excluded OSU from this list? BTW -- their number would be 61.9 (26 plus 35.9 -- average gpa is 3.59 and mcat is 26 according to usnews).
 
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