Since DO students get a comprehensive OMM grilling, and become experts in the Mus-Skeletal system. Shouldn't they have an advantage when it comes to the orthopedic field? Shouldn't they be given special consideration for residency spots? or are we already?
DO's and Othropedics
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DO's treat the whole bone. Not just the broken part.
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DOs should not be elitist.
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why not!! that would be pretty cool
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No, they do not get an advantage. Why should MD residencies give osteopathic students any sort of advantage when osteopathic residencies don't even let MD students apply? And I am not convinced its any sort of advantage anyway.
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this is pretty much what I was referring to.
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There's no special treatment for osteopathic medical students. Also, I wouldn't by any means consider myself an expert in MSK after only two years of 2-3 hrs/week training in OMM. I may know a little OMM, but I wouldn't even consider myself an expert in that; gaining any level of mastery in OMM takes lots and lots of practice. You'll see. Anyway, OMM =/= Ortho. OMM may work through the MSK system, but it isn't by any means inclusive of the system. Also, there is a large surgical component to Ortho. I agree, though, that knowing OMM has some benefit, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it an advantage, or call the training that we receive in medical school comprehensive. It's training--medical school style. We'll retain, like, what, twenty to thirty percent of what we learned in the first two years, if that? I gather we will learn most of the useful stuff in an actual clinical setting, not a classroom or a lab. If you are serious about learning OMM, then practice it; do an undergraduate fellowship and practice it during residency.
Additionally, as already mentioned, the ACGME slots are not ours, yet we are allowed to match into them. That kind of speaks for itself.
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DO's have an advantage when applying to osteopathic ortho residency programs.
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ok it was bothering me like crazy...it's Orthopedics not othropedics..hehe
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Here we go again about the "holistic approach" slogan. 🙄
OP, tell me what is in the DO curriculum that gives DO students a better preparation for Ortho over the MD curriculum.
OMM? Right ... Go into PM&R if you want that "advantage." You will likely be able to use your OMM expertise moreso than you will as an Orthopod.
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I know, I know. I am developing a serious allergy to that phrase.
That's what I've heard as well.
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Well, if a premed isnt convinced then there goes a hundred years of teachings. Damn...we were so close to making our mark in this world. Im glad Lokhtar set us all straight. 🙄
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I hate to say this, but I sorta agree with dizzle.
I hate the whole "holistic approach" mentality that people *think* DOs have. Its not that at all. Besides, it makes us look foolish.
I also agree with dizzle in that OMM probably does more to help someone going into PM&R as opposed to Orthopedics. Remember, Ortho is a surgical field meaning you will be dealing with a good amount of pathology that requires a surgical cure.
Now, if you want to talk about OMM in a postoperative patient then I can certainly give you some studies that show improvement in postoperative ambulation, postop pain and hospital length of stay. Again, a lot of that deals with the Physiatry and Rehab portion of the care, not necessarily done by the orthopod.
I think as a DO I am more confident with my MSK exam than some others may be, but I dont think that necessarily carries over into an Orthopedics residency. Once youre a year or so into a residency program you are pretty much on the same plane anyway.
But with PM&R there is a distinct advantage. I have taught some classes at a PM&R residency based at a large MD academic institution here in Philly and have found that the DOs in the program are able to move quickly through the course while the MDs dont necessarily "struggle", but its the first time they are exposed to much of this.
Good topic. 👍
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Haha 🙂. If you think its an advantage, can you explain why? I can only go on what I hear - I never claimed to be an expert in any way. I just said I am not convinced that it is an advantage.
Since you are a surgery resident and have obviously completed OMM training, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
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I have 8 years worth of thoughts posted on SDN.
If you still have questions after searching, let me know and I would be happy to enlighten you.
I suggest starting by reading the thread directly ABOVE the one you just posted.
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Hand-eye coordination, palpatory abilities, enhanced knowledge of anatomy, expanded diagnostic tools, preoperative and postoperative treaments.
As a SURGICAL resident, I disagree.
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Exactly what I was thinking....
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JPH,
could you enlighten on some other factors of DO education that makes them distinct in skills or attributes over MD colleagues.
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Porco...I have posted things like this over the past few years. Try a search and you will find HUNDREDS of my posts that cover what you are looking for.
Im too cranky to repost everything every couple of months.
👍
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Do guys who use a lot of porn have an advantage in urology?
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Hahaha, that's a good one.
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I agree that being a DO will most likely not give you an advantage over MD when applying for allopathic residency positions (besides FP I guess). On the otherhand, when applying for allopathic orthopedic positions it's a nice link between our profession and the specialty. I only interviewed at MD programs and almost everyone asked what is a DO and why did I go the DO route? I found that after answering the two questions, it was easy to bring it together and say that our training and emphasis on musculoskeletal care was my attraction to go to a DO school and has prepared me well for a future in orthopedics.
Not sure about the other osteopathic medical schools, but my school really hammered in anatomy (year round) so we really knew are anatomy, even more so than our MD counterparts.
Just an observation, not starting anything.
Not sure about the other osteopathic medical schools, but my school really hammered in anatomy (year round) so we really knew are anatomy, even more so than our MD counterparts.
Just an observation, not starting anything.
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apparently they should focus more on english than on anatomy.
just kidding. i do stupid stuff like that all the time, just not thinking. my specialty is "your" and "you're". obviously i konw the difference, but sometimes i write the word down too quickly and end up with the wrong one. damn the english language!- Joined
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I am not sure how many people that graduate out of MD schools match into orthopedics. I would think its all relative to your board scores and rotation grades, letters of recommendation. Some schools specifically training you to become an orthopedic surgeon might be hard to find..i say when you go to a medical school look for kids who are interested in orthopedics and possibly start a club or work with the surgery club on campus. You can get in touch with orthopedic surgeons out there..also do your electives at a few orthopedic programs.
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My plug is for KCOM, as that's my alma mater. The anatomy program is solid and gives you a great foundation for orthopedics = anatomic fundamentals. At least when I was there, we'd be dissecting the upper extremity and correlating that with upper extremity OMM and physical exam skills. I thought it was great to learn how to do an empty can test, hawkin, o'brien's, etc and see the actually tendons tested in the anatomy lab.
The real thing you should be looking at with schools is which one will provide the environment where you can get a solid MEDICAL foundation to ace boards, do well on rotations, etc. because boards, class rank, rotation grades are what get you into orthopedic residencies.
No one school will prepare you or gear you towards a certain specialty (besides primary care for most osteopathic schools). With that said, many people think that going to a school with an associated orthopedic residency may make things easier to get a spot in your "home program". I think it doesn't matter, they'll take whoever has the best overall application.
The real thing you should be looking at with schools is which one will provide the environment where you can get a solid MEDICAL foundation to ace boards, do well on rotations, etc. because boards, class rank, rotation grades are what get you into orthopedic residencies.
No one school will prepare you or gear you towards a certain specialty (besides primary care for most osteopathic schools). With that said, many people think that going to a school with an associated orthopedic residency may make things easier to get a spot in your "home program". I think it doesn't matter, they'll take whoever has the best overall application.
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thanks for the heads up on the grammar ryserr21. i guess words that sound similar to each other do get mixed around when YOU'RE trying to crank out a quick response. i notice that all the time on here. way to take the time to point that out though...niiice (i meant to put the extra "i"s in there).
just busting your balls.
just busting your balls.
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Well, I guess I can retire from my post now; the above quote pretty much addresses several of the questions recently asked in this forum. Well done. 👍
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DO's do have an advantage in orthopedics over MD's. They understand the musculoskeletal system more than the average allopath. Look at each of the matches, there are 3-4 students from every class in every year matching for ortho....this is on par with their allopathic counterparts
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You are making quite a leap here. As much as I hate to say it (because as an osteopathic medical student, I actually want you to be right), the data that you present really doesn't prove your hypothesis that DO's have an "advantage." I question your premise that DO's understand the MSK system significantly better than MD's. Perhaps it can vary a bit by school, but my experience with OMM thus far is that is presented just like any other medical school class/subject (and you know how that is). While there are useful elements, it is doubtful that it translates into significant MSK knowledge. It seems more likely that OMM taught in medical school, if you don't include an undergraduate fellowship and signficant practice during rotations, is more likely to be a very elementary survey of OMM of which you should be able to develop into actual sound knowledge during actual clinical practice (read: it is likely that you need a lot of practice to get good at it). I think it's a huge leap to say that 2 hrs a week of OMM for four semesters translates into significantly greater MSK knowledge. A bit more, yes, but I doubt it is transformational.
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hey..that is pretty uncalled for.....I think it is fair to say DO students have a fair more knowledge about the MS system than allopaths....just as it is to say that allopaths have more actual scientific/research based medical knowledge
This is due to a few simple reasons...number 1...we have more training in it straight out of medical schools...yes it is only 2 hours a week...but that is an extra 2 hours a week for the entire 2 years....and that reinforces anatomical knowledge, and not only that..but how each ms system works with the other.....allopathis do not have this knowledge
I dare an allopath to describe how the sacrum moves in relation to the ileum i n walking...and how it differs when you start jogging and head into a full sprint....anyone?
When a patient comes in with a fx of his or her sacrum...I would defiinitely like to see an osteopathic orthopod....my 2 cents
please see above...while it may have been an overstatement to say DO's have significant knowledge of the MS over their allopathic counterparts.....it is fair to say they do have more training and knowledge in the MS system straight out of medical school
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While I agree that curriculum at both types of medical school (osteopathic and allopathic) are essentially equivalent, meaning, one is not better than the other, I disagree that something important in the curriculum must get significantly bumped, or removed, in order to make room for OMM. I think this is a common misconception. While curricula vary per school, it may be true that there probably are a few less hours in this or that subject, but I highly doubt it makes much of a difference at the end. Anyway, preclinical education in medical school is overrated and is pretty much a rediculous sham. It's a hazing period designed to prepare you for rotations and residency by providing you with some familiarity with the foundation and language of medicine. I think at my school, there are a bit fewer pathology hours, but it is of no consequence, because we simply do it more efficiently. Despite OMM taking up 2 hrs/week, we manage to squeeze in pretty much everything that needs to be done, as standard across medical school curricula; my academic schedule is insane. 🙁
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and what are you contributing? so let's try to keep our mouths shut if you don't have anything valuable to add on
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Hey scoot, has anyone called you a sellout yet for choosing MD over DO? Just wait.....
Also, I think OMM may give a slight advantage, but if there's an MD school where you spend forever and a year in the lab, then that kills the argument that exposure gives you a leg up.
I think what's going to give you a better chance at ortho is going to be board scores, rotation grades, and being adept at that field. That levels it out for MDs and DOs except for DO positions, where MDs have no chance. Everything else is just opinion and speculation. DO is just a different path, not necessarily better, not necessarily worse. Just different.
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scoot, i am in the exact same situation as you were. i've recently learned how much more difficult it is for a DO to beocme an orthopedic surgeon, especially if applying for MD residencies. because I know I want to go into ortho, it will be hard for me to attend a DO school over an MD school if accepted to both. I think ive shared this email in at least two other threads, but i asked this question to a doc i did research with. He is now the cheif of sports medicine and residency director at USF. so whether or not going DO will give you a slight or "major" advantage for MS right out of med school, the MD residencies don't really care. nor do they care about OMM because according to this doctor (and other MDs) OMM isn't applicable as an orthopedic surgeon. whether you agree with this opinion or not, it doesnt matter, so please don't post arguing whether or not hte statement is true or false. All that matters is that the the people that will decide your fate hold this opinion, so it automatically puts a DO at a disadvantage. here is his email to me:
"Interesting that you ask the question about DO vs MD degree for ortho,
because just this past weekend we did our interviews for the four
resident positions at USF (we had about 500 applications). I think it
is substantially more difficult to get into an ortho residency with a DO
degree (though it is possible: we interviewed a couple of DOs).
My concern with DO training is that the last two years are inconsistent
within and between schools, compared to MD training which is much more
uniform. So residency programs don't really know what they are getting,
and therefore there's a bias against the DO graduates. DO graduates
also don't take the same board tests, which programs use as a key
metric. Without those exams, it makes things much tougher to get an
interview.
As far as the application of OMM to orthopaedic surgery care: this is
not really important at all. What you learn as a resident is far more
important that the things learned in med school or osteopath school. I
think OMM is more relevant to those who choose primary care, and if that
is your goal then I don't have any good advice to provide. I think
primary care docs would be in a better position to tell you."
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You shouldn't 😉
But there are some uppity folks here who like to pass judgment like that.
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I am. And moreover, I hate everyone who doesn't choose GA-PCOM as their #1 choice. There is really only one reason that anyone would turn down GA-PCOM in favor of another school: having **** for brains. I will crush you all on the boards. That is all.
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Just to avoid all of the b*tching, whining and complaining about the above post:
^^^SARCASM (as usual, what else would you expect from TT)
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No. For the most part, people are genuinely nice here. Even TT, though he tries to come off as a bad@ss 😛
