Sackler vs. BGU

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NewGradGA

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Hi all Im a noob from San Francisco Pondering a move to the Holy Land, I dont know what kind of doc i want to be, but i did research in radiology/oncology

How do the two stack up.....I have both schools brochures, but those can rarely be trusted

Tuition/Do facilities reflect tuition
Living Experience - city life, night life,
community service
Financial Aid - how is it handled and is it easy
Medical Education - grading system/ranking, teaching, hours of class per day/ length of first and second year/Problem based learning
AOA: is there the honor society at your schools
Research experiences/ are they available
Clinical Education - group sizes on the ward, quality of third year instructors, is it crowded are you part of a team
Sites for 3rd Year Rotations - are you in one hospital or 4-5
4th year - how are rotations, are students prepared, how many electives are done, how is the application of residency handled,
Match- how do the students match, is it possible to get competitve residencies from either school, is the school helpful with timing and deadlines


ALSO can someone explain BGU's Columbia connection, are you a colubmia student, do you get a columbia degree, this is confusing on their brochure and not very clear what their connection is ????????
I know these are a lot of questions, my dads an MD and he said these are things I should consider

any help would be appreciated

thanks
 
I'll try to do my best answering the questions that I can about BGU. Since I'm a 2nd year, I won't try to describe the quality of instruction in 3rd or 4th year.

Tuition: I think our classrooms are a little small. However, the lab facilities and everything else are fine. After doing grad school at Georgetown where I paid more tuition and the building was falling apart, I'm very pleased with our facilities. But, that's just my opinion.
Living Experience: Cost of living here is VERY cheap compared to the US. My roommate and I have a HUGE 3br, 2bath apartment with balcony in a brand new building that we pay a total of $610 month (not each, that's together). The night life is OK from what I hear, I don't really go out much, so I can really give you a good answer to that.
Community Service: It's out there, but the language barrier is a problem. I think that'll happen here and in Tel Aviv, that if you don't speak Hebrew it will be difficult for you to be effective in doing community service.
Fin Aid: Easy
Med Ed: We are on Honor/Pass/Fail system. We never know our grades, and although the school does rank they never tell you where you are ranked because they don't want to foster a negatively competetive environment. In my opinion, it actually works well because what happens (as in my class) is that we all try to help each other do better as a class. If someone in our class is weaker in a subject they don't even have to ask and the other students will help. We send out info to the whole class about helpful articles that we find, online q-banks and stuff. It really does foster a great relationship among your classmates. The teaching like in all school is great in some subjects, and terrible in others. On the whole, I think we are tilted way more to the good side. Especially in 2nd year! 1st year you have 8hr of lecture per day, in 2nd year we have 6 hrs most of the week but twice a week it's 8hrs with our hebrew course.
AOA: Don't think so
Research: Definitely available! I am working in a lab now and worked in a different one last year. Last year one of our students won the Clinical Research Poster Presentation at the National AMSA Convention. This is a HUGE research facility and if you want to do clinical or basic sciences research you just have to find a proff and email them.
3rd year Sites: It's 2 - 3 hospitals. The entire BGU (Israeli program too) lost their affiliation with Sha'are Zedek in Jerusalem, so they are working on finding another hospital to send our students to.
4th year: You find your own US rotations where ever you want to go. What I hear is that our students have far more clinical skills and practice than almost all US students in 4th year, the only thing that we have "trouble" with is just getting used to US paperwork. That only takes about a week or two to adjust to. 3rd year training here is VERY hands-on, much more so than in the US.
Match - Go to the BGU website and you can see a list of where every single graduate has matched to.

Good luck in making your decision.
 
Oh yeah. The BGU-Columbia affiliation is just that. You are a BGU student and your degree will be from BGU, not Columbia. The affiliation extends to that fact that we have Columbia faculty come and lecture to us, and some of our faculty goes to lecture to the Columbia students.
 
Firstly thank you sharkchaser, while the information you have provided is very succint and answers most of my questions, I have to say that based on 3 PM's I have received from 2 3rd years from your school and 1 second year, that you paint a very different picture of BGU, both from what the Columbia office in NY tells us, and from what again, your students are telling me

I have asked one of the students who emailed me if I could post his response, and he adamantly asked me not too, and I thought about it for a while and agreed with him that because your program is fairly new it would be best not to reveal all its secrets on-line, but then I thought about it some more and I grew upset because of the sharp contrast between what is being told to prospective students vs. what is actually going on.

In all private messages received I have been told that the frist year is almost a full year long, a lot of the curriculum is redundant, the international health aspect is sparse and relegated to several articles. The hours of the class total up from 8-10 hours a day. I am told financial aid "is not handled so well but everyone eventually gets their loans". Third years have told me that group size for rotations are way to big and that there are 15 students per group in their final rotations, while others have 8 or 9, both third years say it was too much, and that the language barrier is both a problem and a huge barrier in terms of patient communication. One of the third years has even gone as far as to say that it has affected their learning. In terms of hospitals I was told again that there were 2, the main hospital where you spend the first two years (cant remember the name) and another one an hour away in which one of the third years said was horrible, the other said it was decent and no one spoke english or hebrew. Also they commented that they arent part of a team and usually feel like they are in the way.

Some other points I thought the application community should know is that the Columbia connection is little to nothing, like you said sharkchaser the diploma is BGU, and lectures do come from columbia, apparently that and priority after columbia students with 4th year electives are all that connection entitles, you are not a columbia grad. Also I have been told do not apply to this school if you want to do Residency in Canada or California, or in anything more competitive than general surgery.

Finally with regards to the 4th year US electives which are the most important to me, I hear that you can go anywhere but that most people end up doing their electives at Columbia and its affiliates because it is to expensive to go elsewhere and there are limited schools that take FMG's for electives, again something the NY office does not mention or answer honestly.

There have been some very good points with regards to the school as well, the experience of travelling, and volunteering in the community,(dont feel in the slightest that these qualities are unique to the BGU experience) the lecturers are supposedly worldly reknowned (spelling sucks). third years said they get to do blood draws and scrub in for a lot of surgeries cause their is less red tape to worry about, and thats really about it.

I know this email may not paint the school in such a pleasant picture, by i feel it is my moral obligation to alert people who are basing their decisions on the brochure and what the NY office tells them, that there is a world of difference between what actually goes on. Like I mentioned earlier, my father is a doctor, and he told me that if I do want to go abroad for my medical education I need to know everything I am getting into, and it seems like the dishonesty from the NY office is enough to sway me not to go to BGU.

If anyone has questions on the matter feel free to PM me!

NewGradGA
 
I'm disappointed by your critique about BGU. As a first year student at the school I'm also really surprised by some of the information you've claimed that students in our program have told you. Firstly as a first year I can tell you right away that the whole 10 hours of classes a day is ridiculous. We have 6-8 a day of class depending on the day. That is exactly the same amount of class as in an American school. I invite any readers to contact an american school to conform this. Secondly everyone and I mean everyone got their loans on time so I'm not exactly sure why you our trashing the finance department. Now I'm not in third year so I admittedly do not know much about the rotations but everyone I've talked to has only raved about the rotations. Sarokah the main hospital where we do third year rotations is one of the best hospital in Israel in an Israeli medical system that is as good or better than every western medical system. (and I say this from having family members at top medical centers in canada, the united states and great Britain.) The language barrier is a problem but my friends at american schools sometimes have the same language barriers where most of the patients in their hospitals speak spanish. And they do exactly what many of our students do learn basic words in hebrew (spanish in say america) and use a translator ( we have general hebrew classes first year and medical hebrew classes second year- many students came in with no hebrew background and have already picked up a great deal of knowledge) And your comment about canada is ridiculous. both of my parents are physicians in a large canadian city and I am incredibly familiar with what it takes to getting back into the Canadian system. In short its difficult for any graduate outside of canada but the government two years ago made it much easier to match. Our students match into prestigious residencies and all of these matches are posted on the website. No one matches into plastics and so called competitive residencies like this because students interested in our program have no interest in going into such residencies. Our students are interested in global health and this translates into heavy interest in such specialties as internal medicine ( where many graduates are starting to move on to prestigious fellowships), family medicine and pediatrics, but many students have match into other residencies as well as one can see from the website. While we are a young program out graduates our attaining great residencies and fellowships. The chief resident for internal medicine at Montifiore ( AECOM's main hospital in new york) last year was a grad of our program. In terms of the international health component I have learned a ton on global health. We have lectures and small group discussions each week on global health, incredible research opportunities with leading global health experts and an incredible mandatory 2 month elective in a developing country in our fourth year. The success of our program is apparent in the continuous difficulty in getting into are program. The average mcat is approaching 30( was 29 plus last year) and our average regular and science gpa was 3.5 something. We are very close to the admission standards of a united states state school. The fact that there was at least a dozen students (out of say 45) in my class who turned down american and canadian schools lasat year, if not more, says a lot about our program. The columbia affiliation is incredible to have. We get excellent professors from the columbia medical center teaching us and the fact that we get electives at Columbia's hospitals give us the opportunity to get residencies there and to get excellent grades in electives at prestigious hospitals ( new york Presbyterian for example) that translate into getting great residencies. I can honestly say that this is an excellent program for those interested in a unique medical school with a focus on international health- training compassionate, caring and competent doctors.
 
The problem with the 3rd year rotations this year is that the school lost one of it's affiliate hospitals VERY suddenly. So, the school was forced to combine several rotations groups. From what I hear, the language barrier is a problem at times. But, I feel like I am learning a sufficient amount of Hebrew to be able to interview my patients.

The fourth year electives are not that difficult to get. There was a recent change in policy regarding our malpractice insurance while we are in the states. We only need to do one rotation at Columbia to be covered by their insurance and can then go to do our rotations anywhere. Most of the 4th years this year that don't want to move to NY did their 3 other rotations in the places where they are hoping to match. Those that do want to move to NY, stayed in the city.

While this school, nor any other for that matter is perfect, it is providing us with a great education and really unique and good experiences. There's a saying here that goes: "If it's an incredibly rare disease and no one ever sees it, you'll see it at Soroka". Last year, one of my friends then in 3rd year after taking the Peds Shelf exam came out and told me that every single disease that was asked about on the exam they actually saw patients with in the wards. Now, that is not something you'll be able to get elsewhere.

From what I can gather this program is probably not right for you. But, it is absolutely unethical for you to be swaying the opinions or others and spouting off information that you can't verify about a place to which you have never been, and know nothing about.
 
It seems like I have caused some disturbance here.....

My intentions are not to discredit BGU, I received both an interview and an acceptance from this school and Sackler, I am merely trying to figure out which one is best. Making the decision to become an FMG versus a US med student closes a lot of doors, and I am just trying to make sure that it is worth it.

I based my statements on the STARK contrast between what I was told during my interviews, the conference calls, the brochure, and the website. In addition, now I have heard from 3 3rd years 1 second year and 2 first years. Most of the PM's I have received are from disgruntled students that apparently did not know the type of program they were getting into because of some discrepancies between what was told and what actually is.

The only real problem here is that when speaking to the second years from your school, and the NY office, we all hear the same thing, but first and third years agree to a lot of the problems that I addressed in the OP
1. classes to big
2. hours to long
3. rotations are bad cause groups are too big and there arent enough sites
4. no columbia connection
5. hebrew is important
6. cant match competitive residencies
7. first year is 12 months long leaving no time for summer research
8. international health = reading articles for the first 2 years
9. Away electives outside columbia (for california residents for example) are difficult if not impossible to get as most schools are not taking FMG's
10. not a well known school outside of new york

These are important things that people need to know because I was not told them, but they are obvioulsy true

I am not saying dont be proud of your school it sounds like it could be a great program maybe, I am saying people shouldnt be lied to.

Thats all!

Gradga
 
NewGradGA -- I'm not sure why you are going to such lengths to discredit this program. I will be joining the 2012 class in a few months, and so I obviously have no direct experience there, but I think you need to be careful how you interpret the words of others....there are problems with ANY medical school anywhere. No experience will be perfect! In addition, I have also received PMs from students on this forum who all agree that despite some of the challenges, they would still make the decision to come to this school if they had to do it all over again.

Also, lots of the things you are saying ARE on the website and in the brochure...they very cleary state that the degree is granted from BGU and they outline the roles of BGU and Columbia, and it is clear from this that Columbia's role is mostly peripheral. Also, it is common knowledge to most of us that there are inherent problems in being a FMG no matter which foreign school you go to...but as all of the students on this forum have said, BGU graduates are getting good residencies...like everything else in life, you get out of things what you put into them.

People choose to do medical school overseas for different reasons - I know I am turning down med school at home for this opportunity, and I am sure others have done the same thing. I EXPECT there to be challenges. I EXPECT there to be lots of change. I EXPECT lots of amazing experiences that come from living and studying in such a diverse part of the world.

Going abroad for med school is a big decision - I have worked overseas a lot, and the first lesson I learned is that you have to be able to roll with the punches. You have to accept that things WILL go differently than they would at home - this is where all the excitement and adventure comes from. If you can't relax and little bit and learn how to choose your battles, I think going to school in Israel will be a miserable experience for you.
 
couldnt have put it better myself, I had no idea what i was or wanted to do when I came here, but all in all it has been an experience

there were challenges and there will be challenges,

i think someone with such a negative attitude like yours would do well out here, it is a difficult environment and it takes a lot of "chutzpah" to be able to survive and adapt even within the classroom where there are 45 other people totally different than you with different attitudes upbringing and ideas

maybe you should stick to Sackler or a US school, and please stop cluttering the internet with your ridiculousness

thanks

izzy😎
 
I agree with Izzy. btw negrad I want to congradulate you on your acceptance to sackler considering sackler doesnt send acceptances till late march. So please take your non existant acceptance to sackler and stop bashing BGU. I honestly have no idea where you are getting your information but I honestly know very few students at our school who have any real regrets. As graduates of our program can tell anyone our training is as good any any american student and according to some students may be better in certain ways. I can't figure out your agenda but please stop insulting our program with your pack of lies.
 
Israel is a great experience with wonderful people.
 
Hi everyone,

I'm a 1st year at BGU and I feel compelled to share some of my thoughts.

First, NewGradGA, I appreciate that you shared the feedback (albeit negative!) from your PMs. This is an open forum where people can ask up front questions and hope for and expect honest answers. If I only wanted to know the wonderful things about a school, I would read their brochure and talk to their PR people.

That being said, you have to take several things into consideration when assessing the info that's being offered to you: 1) Med students LOVE to complain, especially when they are tired and stressed out. 2) Number 1 is not restricted to BGU, it happens in every medical school in the world. 3) No medical school is perfect-- I have a friend at one of the top schools in the states who complains all the time about certain aspects of the curriculum. 4) Different strokes for different folks. Every professor has students who like him and students who hate him. Some people hate powerpoint presentations while others can live without them, etc, etc, etc. No matter where you go there will be things that jive with your personality and things that don't jive with your personality.

I just thought about this but perhaps the reason that your PMers didn't want you to share the negative info was because they knew that it might not have been totally objective???

Listen, the school is not perfect. There's a lot of room for growth and development. But it's also nice to be a part of a project that is dynamic, constantly improving and changing to meet the needs of its students. It is quite empowering to feel like we are an integral part of deciding on our education. Some might argue that it is much nicer than having the school impose its age-old medical curriculum on you from the top down. Think of it as kind of a grassroots med school (that's so new-age, isn't it?).

I won't go on (although I could...trust me), so I'll leave you with some parting words. If I had the choice to come to this school or go to another school (maybe aside from a ivy league...) in the US, I would choose this school time and time again. Here's why:

The UNIQUENESS of going to school here in Israel is invaluable. The things that I've seen and learned about (in addition to medicine) have totally enriched the experience of med school. When I tell people that I go to the Medical school for International health in Israel, their ears perk up and interesting conversations and stories (almost) always ensue. Even though being a FMG may be an obstacle for going back to the states, the edge that our students have may even cancel it out. I love the experience and I encourage all people with an adventurous spirit and open mind to pursue it as well! You'll be amongst like-minded people!

And, at the end of the day WE ARE ALL DOCTORS, NO MATTER WHERE WE CAME FROM! Grads from our program do well. Really well.

Best of luck with your decision. If you have any questions at all, post them or PM me and I promise to give an honest and unbiased opinion 🙂

Cheers
Berrypie
 
I am wondering what the MS1 and MS2 schedule is for Sackler. Is it lecture/lab every day 9 to 5? I am in a unique position and hoping to be free at 330 pm M - F (Israel time). Is this more or less possible for the 1st and 2nd year? Or are there lectures/lab/other during that time, and if so are those activities mandatory?

I figure the clinical years are like anywhere in the U.S., in that you often have long hours well past 5pm, depending on the rotation. Is this true?

Thanks for any input.
 
berry pie, im a third year here, thanks for those last few paragraphs, helps me remember why I chose this program...
 
marvinGardens

Second years have class until 3pm, 3 times a week. Then on the two days a week that we have Hebrew, we go 9a - 6p. The only class that is mandatory is Hebrew. You do not have to go to lecture or most labs in 2nd year.
 
Thank you BGU students for your spirited defense. It was good to hear some new information and the general positive feelings that students spanning three years have about the school. I'm now confident that I'd be happy at BGU (though I'm still in the painful waiting stage...).

I do have one question, more about Israel than BGU - what is your interaction like with the local population? Are you able to form good relationships as a non-Jewish American with (what I anticipate being) limited Hebrew?

Thanks
 
Hi,
Doese anyone have any advice on interviewing at BGU?
 
First year there is class until around 5, but every day is different. sometimes you get out at 3, sometimes 5. after that is hebrew twice a week if you choose to go (totally up to you). classes are not mandatory, and many people choose to go to some classes but not others. however, they go to the library instead and study the material on their own. there's a lot of flexibility in how you choose to spend your time and how you study.

marvinGardens said:
I am wondering what the MS1 and MS2 schedule is for Sackler. Is it lecture/lab every day 9 to 5? I am in a unique position and hoping to be free at 330 pm M - F (Israel time). Is this more or less possible for the 1st and 2nd year? Or are there lectures/lab/other during that time, and if so are those activities mandatory?

I figure the clinical years are like anywhere in the U.S., in that you often have long hours well past 5pm, depending on the rotation. Is this true?

Thanks for any input.
Click to expand...
 
Sackler

Tuition/Do facilities reflect tuition - Bottom line is no. There are 2 classrooms we have access to. I am actually curious to see what I am paying for, but I dont honestly care because I will be a doctor in a 2.5 years.

Living Experience - Tel Aviv. Plenty of night life if you are into that. Ramat aviv living is boring, and most 1st years live here. But, its a quick bus ride into the city or a cab.

community service - We have a PHR (physicians for human rights) chapter that is very active. People work with African refugees as well as with the bedouin community.

Financial Aid - Extremely easy to take care of, but may need more soon because the dollar is worthless. It was worth 4.4 shekels when I came to israel, now its 3.6.

Medical Education - First off, grades don't matter for the first 2 years, well, rarely do. The system is 60-80 pass, 81-90 High Pass, 91-100 Honor. Its extremely hard to Honor something. I am not sure what kind of rank system we have here, and I don't really care. There are great teachers, and there are awful teachers. I did not go to class for most of the 1st year classes, and none of the first semester of 2nd year. If you learn from someone reading slides to you, then more power. Classes range from 9-4 or 10-1 it really just depends. Problem based learning isn't something built in to our curriculum, so there is not time dedicated to it.

AOA: We have AMSA, not sure what else.

Research experiences - People who stay in the summer have more opportunities and time to do some research, they are available, but most students I would say do not do them.

Clinical Education - Group sizes in rotations are like 5-6 per group with a senior attending.

Sites for 3rd Year Rotations - There are many hospitals affiliated with Sackler, so every rotation will most likely take you to a new hospital.

4th year - They are supposed to be fantastic. You apply to do rotations/SubI in the states for 4 months, return, and finish up.

Match- People match very well from Sackler. Optho, Radiology, Anesthesia, and even.. this year, someone has matched to Neurosurgery. Still, its very very hard to get the top competitive specialties. Its hard from US schools, so its even harder from International schools.
 
Hi,

I was wondering if anyone here could tell me about the average gpa's/mcats to get into sackler? Also, how hard is it to get a residency like cardiology or ER? I am not sure what I want to do yet but I am leaning towards those and I don't want to limit myself so early on?

On another note..do you think it is a bad idea to apply to Sackler without having first applied to the US, because I am currently one year out of undergrad and I am not sure I want to have another year off considering medicine is such a long career.

Thanks :laugh:
 
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