Moral/Ethical Dilemma.. checking URM status?

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ANF1986

ANF1986

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Ok...here it is...I'm at the point of applying to several post-bac programs right now to fulfill my pre-reqs. I've been told by a number of people, including my parents, that I should be checking "Hispanic/Latino" on everything I fill out. Im half Portugese/Irish. However, I really never identified with it and on every school form and FASFA thus far have always checked 'Caucasian'.

Should it bother my conscience to check this status if I am legitimately of this background, even though I've never indicated such on any previous forms?
 
wait if you are protugese and irish why would oyu be hispanic/latino?
 
portuguese is not hispanic/latino in any way shape or form...
 
According to wikipedia, the Roman's once used hispanic to refer to those from Portugal, but the modern use of the term is restricted to those of Spanish or Latin American decent. It is also an ethnicity, not a race -- so you could be a Caucasian or Black and still be Hispanic.

So technically I don't think you are Hispanic by definition, but it's all what you personally identify as (which in this case doesn't sound like Hispanic anyway).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic
 
AlanAlanine said:
portuguese is not hispanic/latino in any way shape or form...
Click to expand...

Thats contrary to what I've been told by people who are hispanic/latino. Portugal is next to Spain, and one would naturally think that they are both hispanic. I've been asked to join "hispanic community groups" by local politicians who learned that I had a Portguese parent...This is an interesting topic indeed, Im awaiting some more responses...
 
Yeh bud, your white. 🙂
 
I don't believe you are considered hispanic. I found this on some random website.
"A U.S. citizen of true-born Hispanic heritage, from any of the Spanish-speaking areas of Latin America or the following regions: Mexico, Central America, South America and the Caribbean Basin only."

If you are bilingual be sure to write that, but in this situation better safe than sorry. If the schools you are applying to do not consider Portuguese to be Hispanic then they might not like you saying you are Hispanic.
 
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The minimal benefits of checking URM are far outweighed by the potential harm you could do since you arent going to convince an adcom that you are latino when you really have 0 identity with the culture.
 
I'm confused. How would a school go about denying someone an ethnicity he claimed? If AMCAS has a set of rules in place that says "these nationalities are considered hispanic/latino for application purposes:
  • " then that's one thing, but otherwise, I see denying someone the ethnicity he lists on his application being extremely problematic. Plenty of people look white but aren't, especially in the hispanic arena. A very close friend of mine is Colombian but is about as white as they come. She even has a touch of the Canadian accent. In other words, you can't really look at someone and say "nope, not hispanic." Even if they ask you what your background is and you tell them honestly, I think the worst that could happen is your application gets shuffled to the non-URM pile.
 
MilkmanAl said:
I'm confused. How would a school go about denying someone an ethnicity he claimed? If AMCAS has a set of rules in place that says "these nationalities are considered hispanic/latino for application purposes:
  • " then that's one thing, but otherwise, I see denying someone the ethnicity he lists on his application being extremely problematic. Plenty of people look white but aren't, especially in the hispanic arena. A very close friend of mine is Colombian but is about as white as they come. She even has a touch of the Canadian accent.
Click to expand...


  • Agreed...I can speak really broken Portuguese...I can certainly curse at the ADCOMs in Portuguese if they want me to...And its not that I dont necessarily identify with my Portuguese side(i get mistaken for Italian all the time), it's just that I always assumed that Hispanic was reserved for people from Mexico,PR, and Spain. My mom checked Hispanic on all her forms throughout undergrad and graduate school, which is how this topic was brought up, she saw me filling out a form and asked me why I wasn't checking hispanic...
 
I think it should absolutely bother your conscience since it seems like you are knowingly misrepresenting yourself to manipulate the system. Even by your definition, Portugal does not fall under "Latino/Hispanic", as it is a European nation with Portuguese as its official language, not Spanish.
 
thejarb said:
I think it should absolutely bother your conscience since it seems like you are knowingly misrepresenting yourself to manipulate the system. Even by your definition, Portugal does not fall under "Latino/Hispanic", as it is a European nation with Portuguese as its official language, not Spanish.
Click to expand...
All hispanic people speak Spanish, eh? I'm pretty sure there are some Mexicans and many others who would strongly disagree with that. Also, wouldn't your definition mean that Spanish people aren't hispanic since they come from Europe? 😕
 
Just FYI, you can check the Hispanic box if you are so inclined but your Portuguese ethnicity will not grant you any advantaged status.

URM status is defined by the AAMC as:
URM (Under Represented Minority) includes U.S. Citizens or Permanent Residents who indicate Black, Am Ind/AK Native, Nat Hawaiian race or Mex Am, PR Mnlnd ethnicity in combination or alone. Non-URM includes unknown.
Click to expand...

Source
 
thejarb said:
I think it should absolutely bother your conscience since it seems like you are knowingly misrepresenting yourself to manipulate the system. Even by your definition, Portugal does not fall under "Latino/Hispanic", as it is a European nation with Portuguese as its official language, not Spanish.
Click to expand...

My last name is Spanish, additionally, shouldn't we consider the geography of Portugal to Spain? Spain itself is closer to inland Europe than Portugal...

Portugal_map.jpg
 
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Depakote said:
Just FYI, you can check the Hispanic box if you are so inclined but your Portuguese ethnicity will not grant you any advantaged status.

URM status is defined by the AAMC as:

Source
Click to expand...


Thank you, thats more along the lines of info I was looking for. Anyway, Im still enjoying this thread...Lol...
 
ANF1986 said:
shouldn't we consider the geography of Portugal to Spain? Spain itself is closer to inland Europe than Portugal...
Click to expand...

I live next to Compton, am I African American URM?
 
I am Latino and to be honest with you I would not consider somebody from Portugal as Hispanic. Now a days it stands more for the culture that brings together people from Central America, South America and parts of the Caribbean. You are more than welcome to designate yourself however you want. Realize however that admission committees are not as transparent as they seem. Some might think that you are trying to give yourself an advantage when one doesn't exist and this will not bode well for you.

It seems that you are trying to find somebody to help you justify what you already know you want to do. Also, I completely agree with what Chessknt87 said :

" The minimal benefits of checking URM are far outweighed by the potential harm you could do since you arent going to convince an adcom that you are latino when you really have 0 identity with the culture."
 
Last edited:
chessknt87 said:
The minimal benefits of checking URM are far outweighed by the potential harm you could do since you arent going to convince an adcom that you are latino when you really have 0 identity with the culture.
Click to expand...

I LOLd when I read this...the benefits of checking URM on an application are gigantic...or maybe that's because I know a handful of kids getting in middle-->top tier med schools with 3.4s (URMs) while I know kids getting rejected from all lower-tier with 3.6s (non-URMs)

but maybe I'm just bitter since I can't check that ever-so-helpful box 🙄
 
Fp02c said:
I am Latino and to be honest with you I would not consider somebody from Portugal as Hispanic. Now a days it stands more for the culture that brings together people from Central America, South America and parts of the Caribbean. You are more than welcome to designate yourself however you want. Realize however that admission committees are not as transparent as they seem. Some might think that you are trying to give yourself an advantage when one doesn't exist and this will not bode well for you.
Click to expand...

I see. Well it's certainly an interesting dilemma. On one hand, I have my parents insisting that it's a Hispanic ethnicity. As well as someone on the community who heads some sort of hispanic community group (He's from Puerto Rico, by the way) telling me I'm hispanic. So, at some point someone is uninformed.

I kind of resent the implication however, that I'm somehow trying to cheat the system when I infact made an entire thread devoted to trying to decide whether I have a legitimate reason to check the 'Hispanic or Latino' box on applications. I'm sure there are those with absolutely no connections to the ethnicity they check on those forms in order to so, and most of them probably do not start threads contemplating the moral dilemmas of doing so. (For instance, I could imagine someone who is dark skinned black from the Caribbean islands checking 'African American' when in fact that would be an incorrect designation'). This is not what I was attempting to do.
 
ANF1986 said:
I see. Well it's certainly an interesting dilemma. On one hand, I have my parents insisting that it's a Hispanic ethnicity. As well as someone on the community who heads some sort of hispanic community group (He's from Puerto Rico, by the way) telling me I'm hispanic. So, at some point someone is uninformed.

I kind of resent the implication however, that I'm somehow trying to cheat the system when I infact made an entire thread devoted to trying to decide whether I have a legitimate reason to check the 'Hispanic or Latino' box on applications. I'm sure there are those with absolutely no connections to the ethnicity they check on those forms in order to so, and most of them probably do not start threads contemplating the moral dilemmas of doing so. (For instance, I could imagine someone who is dark skinned black from the Caribbean islands checking 'African American' when in fact that would be an incorrect designation'). This is not what I was attempting to do.
Click to expand...


Your thread title aludes to you going for URM status. The implications that you are trying to cheat the system is coming from the inclusion of URM in the thread title, implying you were trying to misrepresent yourself to the ADCOM.
 
How about half peruvian? I'd like to think I'm URM
 
ProAthleteMD said:
*sigh* :laugh:

Sorry, I couldn't resist.
Click to expand...

FUDGE

FUDGE FUDGE FUDGE
😛


Anyway YOU'RE white.

I spoke to a UCD Ad-com yesterday and he told me that marking URM isn't as importnat as what you've taken away from being a URM. If you've taken a lot away from it then go ahead mark it. But if your a rich portugese/Irish student that has all the advantages in world (i'm not implying that you are), it's probally not a smart idea to mark URM.
 
Fp02c said:
I am Latino and to be honest with you I would not consider somebody from Portugal as Hispanic. Now a days it stands more for the culture that brings together people from Central America, South America and parts of the Caribbean.
Click to expand...


lol yeah ok buddy. funny how spaniards today think of themselves as the first hispanics, since- oh yeah- they were.

just because the only hispanics you encountered are from north/south america (read: are black/brown) doesn't mean that iberians (read: white) are not.

talk about being ethnocentric...
 
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funny but randomly related:

My friend got a $1,000 scholarship which required that you HAD to be "African-American" to get it (which I think is BS to begin with - that you must be a certain race to deserve $ to pay for school..but that is a different story/topic). He attended a conference to collect his check and was asked to give a short speech about his extracurriculars and why he won and such.


The reason it was hilarious is because my friend is Egyptian-American and is one of the whitest guys I have ever seen. And the entire conference was full of purely African Americans, with Malcolm X and Martin Luther King posters hung everwhere, giving him the dirtiest look in the world. Did he cheat the system? Yes and No. He IS African-American yet he is not the "African American" they 'wanted'. So i say, because the URM stuff cheats other applicants who deserve to get in so often, use it if you can. If not (check with a few med schools and ask anonymously if possible), then don't check it. Simple as that.
 
jr doctor in sd said:
funny but randomly related:

My friend got a $1,000 scholarship which required that you HAD to be "African-American" to get it (which I think is BS to begin with - that you must be a certain race to deserve $ to pay for school..but that is a different story/topic). He attended a conference to collect his check and was asked to give a short speech about his extracurriculars and why he won and such.


The reason it was hilarious is because my friend is Egyptian-American and is one of the whitest guys I have ever seen. And the entire conference was full of purely African Americans, with Malcolm X and Martin Luther King posters hung everwhere, giving him the dirtiest look in the world. Did he cheat the system? Yes and No. He IS African-American yet he is not the "African American" they 'wanted'. So i say, because the URM stuff cheats other applicants who deserve to get in so often, use it if you can. If not (check with a few med schools and ask anonymously if possible), then don't check it. Simple as that.
Click to expand...
:laugh:.
 
DrYoda said:
Your thread title aludes to you going for URM status. The implications that you are trying to cheat the system is coming from the inclusion of URM in the thread title, implying you were trying to misrepresent yourself to the ADCOM.
Click to expand...

Lol I think thats a little bit of a stretch. I was simply asking if checking Hispanic or Latino was appropriate. It seems that my idea of what constituted "URM" was way off, as I thought anything but Caucasian fulfilled that. Appearently that is not so, and even if I was from the country of SPAIN, according to AAMC I would not be considered a "URM," as they have criteria for race as well. ¿Comprende mi amigo?
 
Sorry, Portugal isn't poor and/or crappy enough of a country to merit URM status for its descendants in america
 
jr doctor in sd said:
funny but randomly related:

My friend got a $1,000 scholarship which required that you HAD to be "African-American" to get it (which I think is BS to begin with - that you must be a certain race to deserve $ to pay for school..but that is a different story/topic). He attended a conference to collect his check and was asked to give a short speech about his extracurriculars and why he won and such.


The reason it was hilarious is because my friend is Egyptian-American and is one of the whitest guys I have ever seen. And the entire conference was full of purely African Americans, with Malcolm X and Martin Luther King posters hung everwhere, giving him the dirtiest look in the world. Did he cheat the system? Yes and No. He IS African-American yet he is not the "African American" they 'wanted'. So i say, because the URM stuff cheats other applicants who deserve to get in so often, use it if you can. If not (check with a few med schools and ask anonymously if possible), then don't check it. Simple as that.
Click to expand...

Egyptian

ROFL :laugh:
 
ANF1986 said:
Ok...here it is...I'm at the point of applying to several post-bac programs right now to fulfill my pre-reqs. I've been told by a number of people, including my parents, that I should be checking "Hispanic/Latino" on everything I fill out. Im half Portugese/Irish. However, I really never identified with it and on every school form and FASFA thus far have always checked 'Caucasian'.
Click to expand...

ANF1986 said:
I kind of resent the implication however, that I'm somehow trying to cheat the system when I infact made an entire thread devoted to trying to decide whether I have a legitimate reason to check the 'Hispanic or Latino' box on applications. I'm sure there are those with absolutely no connections to the ethnicity they check on those forms in order to so, and most of them probably do not start threads contemplating the moral dilemmas of doing so. (For instance, I could imagine someone who is dark skinned black from the Caribbean islands checking 'African American' when in fact that would be an incorrect designation'). This is not what I was attempting to do.
Click to expand...

You've always checked Caucasian before. Now you're trying to decide whether it's appropriate to check "hispanic or latino". Ethnicity is a matter of self-identification. Why would you change the way you've always self-identified unless you had a good reason?

ANF1986 said:
Lol I think thats a little bit of a stretch. I was simply asking if checking Hispanic or Latino was appropriate. It seems that my idea of what constituted "URM" was way off, as I thought anything but Caucasian fulfilled that. Appearently that is not so, and even if I was from the country of SPAIN, according to AAMC I would not be considered a "URM," as they have criteria for race as well. ¿Comprende mi amigo?
Click to expand...

There isn't a "URM" box on forms, there's an ethnic self identification form. It's whatever ethnicity you identify with. You can say you're hispanic and by the definition of the word you would be correct. The admissions committee decides who is considered an under represented minority.

However, please don't insult anyone's intelligence by telling us that you were asking this question for any other reason than to gain an advantage in the admissions process.
 
Depakote said:
You've always checked Caucasian before. Now you're trying to decide whether it's appropriate to check "hispanic or latino". Ethnicity is a matter of self-identification. Why would you change the way you've always self-identified unless you had a good reason?



There isn't a "URM" box on forms, there's an ethnic self identification form. It's whatever ethnicity you identify with. You can say you're hispanic and by the definition of the word you would be correct. The admissions committee decides who is considered an under represented minority.

However, please don't insult anyone's intelligence by telling us that you were asking this question for any other reason than to gain an advantage in the admissions process.
Click to expand...

Why would I want to check something different now? I addressed that earlier, I considered Hispanic to be Spain, PR, and Mexico. I was simply ignorant of the fact that my background was considered hispanic until it was brought up by my parents that indeed Portuguese are considered to be hispanic.

Also, if by the definition of the word I am considered hispanic, then I am not manipulating anything in order to gain an advantage, I'm correcting an error that I've ignorantly filled out on my paperwork. I certainly see where you're coming from though. As you might have been able to see from my thread title, my mind was not made up on whether I should legitimately check that box, hence the "dilemma" part of it.

So you're basically of the opinion that even though I am legitimately hispanic, since I have never "identified" with this ethnicity throughout my life, it would be unethical to check that box on an admissions form?

I'm trying to be objective here...although it is obviously in my interests to do so...
 
ANF1986 said:
Why would I want to check something different now? I addressed that earlier, I considered Hispanic to be Spain, PR, and Mexico. I was simply ignorant of the fact that my background was considered hispanic until it was brought up by my parents that indeed Portuguese are considered to be hispanic.

Also, if by the definition of the word I am considered hispanic, then I am not manipulating anything in order to gain an advantage, I'm correcting an error that I've ignorantly filled out on my paperwork. I certainly see where you're coming from though. As you might have been able to see from my thread title, my mind was not made up on whether I should legitimately check that box, hence the "dilemma" part of it.

So you're basically of the opinion that even though I am legitimately hispanic, since I have never "identified" with this ethnicity throughout my life, it would be unethical to check that box on an admissions form?

I'm trying to be objective here...although it is obviously in my interests to do so...
Click to expand...

If you've dealt with problems that real underprivileged URM's have to deal with then mark urm. If you're a privileged person trying to take advantage of the system then you shouldn't. Simple stuff buddy....

Also if you do look white you might not want to mark URM, come interview time your f'ed in the A.
 
If you're still honestly on the fence about this, I'm going to honestly tell you that it's a bad idea to check the box.

Sure you are Hispanic by the letter of the word, but you are going to spend a lot of time discussing how you're Portuguese and weren't trying to gain any special favors when you checked that box. You've said that you didn't really identify with the Portuguese side of your heritage so why invite a huge mess of trouble and misunderstanding for gains that we've already determined you aren't eligible for?

Or did we reach that decision half a thread ago?
 
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ANF1986 said:
Should it bother my conscience to check this status if I am legitimately of this background, even though I've never indicated such on any previous forms?
Click to expand...

If you can identify this person you should feel free to classify yourself as Portuguese:

174301408_0ec577e247.jpg


Seriously though, you didn't write the rules. If you can claim a particular status within the rules, then do it. They're cold blooded, you should be, too.
 
Depakote said:
If you're still honestly on the fence about this, I'm going to honestly tell you that it's a bad idea to check the box.

Sure you are Hispanic by the letter of the word, but you are going to spend a lot of time discussing how you're Portuguese and weren't trying to gain any special favors when you checked that box. You've said that you didn't really identify with the Portuguese side of your heritage so why invite a huge mess of trouble and misunderstanding for gains that we've already determined you aren't eligible for?

Or did we reach that decision half a thread ago?
Click to expand...

My dad was never in my life, my mom abandoned me when I was 6 to be with her boyfriend, and I've been in and out of foster homes all my life. That really Isn't even the half of it and I'm still considering not marking "disadvantaged". I really doubting the strength of your moral fiber ANF1986.
 
Gut Shot said:
If you can identify this person you should feel free to classify yourself as Portuguese:



Seriously though, you didn't write the rules. If you can claim a particular status within the rules, then do it. They're cold blooded, you should be, too.
Click to expand...

Ummm.... Amalia Rodrigues i believe....gparents had a picture of her in their living room...

Depakote...in my original post I said i never really identified with IT... IT was referring to being a Hispanic...I was under the impression as everyone else that Portugal was just a European country....To clarify that point for you...But believe what you want of course...
 
ANF1986 said:
Ummm.... Amalia Rodrigues i believe....gparents had a picture of her in their living room...
Click to expand...

Your conscience is clear. Go with God.
 
If you have never claimed it before, why start now? Just wondering.
 
BlackDr2b said:
If you have never claimed it before, why start now? Just wondering.
Click to expand...


As I said earlier, I was uninformed that Portuguese was actually considered a Hispanic ethnicity.
 
WannaBePreMed said:
My dad was never in my life, my mom abandoned me when I was 6 to be with her boyfriend, and I've been in and out of foster homes all my life. That really Isn't even the half of it and I'm still considering not marking "disadvantaged". I really doubting the strength of your moral fiber ANF1986.
Click to expand...

You either have spectacular stats or you are foolish.
 
ANF1986 said:
As I said earlier, I was uninformed that Portuguese was actually considered a Hispanic ethnicity.
Click to expand...

Portuguese aren't considered as a hispanic ethnicity.
 
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