Obama: Nurses are superior to physicians in patient ethics and abilities

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Coastie

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Oh yeah, we're only in it for "the money". Nurses do all the work, we do nothing. After all, they are not in it to "be rich".

Call to all residents: your profession is in trouble with this healthcare bill. This is a general message to all residents: Call your congressman/representative, and demand that Obama's healthcare plans do not come to pass!

At 8:38 he says that nurses buck up young residents who "don't know what they are doing".

Hello, guys? DNP's coming your way. Wake up, fellow physicians. Our duties to our patients demand it.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLJYy4jQ3wM[/YOUTUBE]

Members don't see this ad.
 
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Perhaps "Dr Wiseman" can explain her BMI and pending vascular disease (and probably diabetes) as well to all residents....
 
I think i'm going to puke. This guy obviously has no idea what the hell he's talking about and he sure as hell hasn't been to any hospitals in new york. Getting nurses to do the most routine of things in their job descriptions in NY is a miracle. They union is incredibly strong and they got the hospitals by the balls.

Obama is starting to show his true colors. The guy got elected by his charisma and gift of tongue. His true knowledge of the issues is lacking and especially in the arena of health care, he is really green behind the ears. What this country and this administration needs is a good kick in the balls by a unified, strong physician lobby. Unfortunately, there is NO such thing left in this country.
 
medicine in this country is doomed
 
I am tearing up my voter registration card.:mad:

Just let one of his family members get sick at the end of a nurse's shift and see who has the more ethics. The nurse that has to start sign out an hour before her shift ends and won't tend to patient care, or the resident who knows not to leave the patient's bedside when they're sick, regardless of the time of day or night?
 
In one of our hospitals, the nursing union has fliers up on the walls. The flier lists the names and salaries of the CFO and CEO ($1.5 mil +) and asks why they are getting such salaries and nurses aren't getting bonuses. Then, the flier asks nurses to call the CEO on his phone (number listed on the flier) and demand that he raise salaries for nursing staff.

I think to myself: Combining this militant, aggressive organization along with a clueless president who is pandering to the interest of his voting base, physicians are pretty much screwed. We don't have this type of lobby and for the most part, physicians are too busy trying to beat the system as it is.
To me, it seems it's all a losing battle. It's not even about the money. It's about public perception and we are losing in this arena more than ever with the help of this fool in the white house.

Is this guy for real? What the hell happened to all the BS that he promised pre election? So far, he enjoys making speeches after speeches, making broad statements on issues without giving any real concrete solutions to problems. This guy really likes the limelight, doesn't he.
 
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Obama to physicians: F*** You
 
I swear, if I am reincarnated, in my next life I will come back as a union boss. After surviving the endless abuse as a med student and resident and witnessing the crap docs put up with on a daily basis, I have turned pro union. How could I not???? If anyone is looking for such a leader, please send me a PM. I will use my expertise in getting ****ted on and channel it to further your group's rights in ways you can only begin to imagine.
The reason why our salaries have stagnated is because we just bend over and take it. Do you ever wonder why the lady who sits in the ticket kiosk in the Manhattan subway makes 80G's a year rather than minimum wage? Or why in suburban NY police officers make salaries in the low to mid 100's on par with primary care docs? It is because of strong united unions. If there was ever a time for doctors to unionize, NOW IS THE TIME.
 
I swear, if I am reincarnated, in my next life I will come back as a union boss. After surviving the endless abuse as a med student and resident and witnessing the crap docs put up with on a daily basis, I have turned pro union. How could I not???? If anyone is looking for such a leader, please send me a PM. I will use my expertise in getting ****ted on and channel it to further your group's rights in ways you can only begin to imagine.
The reason why our salaries have stagnated is because we just bend over and take it. Do you ever wonder why the lady who sits in the ticket kiosk in the Manhattan subway makes 80G's a year rather than minimum wage? Or why in suburban NY police officers make salaries in the low to mid 100's on par with primary care docs? It is because of strong united unions. If there was ever a time for doctors to unionize, NOW IS THE TIME.

Absoutely agree.

Guaranteed that there will be a point in the future where physicians will go on strike or hold wide protests in this country. It's much better to do it now rather than when damage is done and then, we would be facing an incredibly steep hill to climb.

Just look at the protests that have been held in europe (Germany) for example. For them, though, it was already too late, so nothing much came from it. Do we want to face that?

I don't think any of this is a doomsday theory propaganda. This **** is real and physicians have to wake up and face the fire before it gets out of hand.

It has to start with public education. Let them know how hard doctors work. How hard residents have to work, the hours they pull, the number of patients they see. Let the public know about reimbursements and the small % that gets to the physician. We need the public to support the physician. What the hell is AMA for anyway, what are they doing. Useless f...cks
 
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i wonder how much money the AANA put behind this guy for him to be sucking on their teets so hard. Focus on prevention so that nurses don't have to TREAT THE COMPLICATIONS?? are you kidding me --- I guess physician's just send the bill while nurses are the ones working up the patient, diagnosing, and then treating them.

Then, I love the big chuckle the nurses give when he says that nurses help "buck up some young resident that doesn't quite know what hes doing". Ha Ha, very funny --- residents are stupid HA HA let's all laugh on the white house lawn
 
Absoutely agree.

Guaranteed that there will be a point in the future where physicians will go on strike or hold wide protests in this country. It's much better to do it now rather than when damage is done and then, we would be facing an incredibly steep hill to climb.

Just look at the protests that have been held in europe (Germany) for example. For them, though, it was already too late, so nothing much came from it. Do we want to face that?

I don't think any of this is a doomsday theory propaganda. This **** is real and physicians have to wake up and face the fire before it gets out of hand.

It has to start with public education. Let them know how hard doctors work. How hard residents have to work, the hours they pull, the number of patients they see. Let the public know about reimbursements and the small % that gets to the physician. We need the public to support the physician. What the hell is AMA for anyway, what are they doing. Useless f...cks

All the democrats are touting that this nebulous proposition is being supported by the AMA (which they then extend to say that DOCTORS SUPPORT IT).
 
Maybe doctors can't unionize, but they can sure as hell put out a ****ing commerical or something. SOMETHING!
 
If every doctor goes on strike/protests, they can't arrest and lock up everyone can they? Some of the stuff Obama has been saying lately has been pretty damn ridiculous.

Edit: I've already emailed my congressmen regarding Obama's proposal. What more can I do to help?
 
I swear, if I am reincarnated, in my next life I will come back as a union boss. After surviving the endless abuse as a med student and resident and witnessing the crap docs put up with on a daily basis, I have turned pro union. How could I not???? If anyone is looking for such a leader, please send me a PM. I will use my expertise in getting ****ted on and channel it to further your group's rights in ways you can only begin to imagine.
The reason why our salaries have stagnated is because we just bend over and take it. Do you ever wonder why the lady who sits in the ticket kiosk in the Manhattan subway makes 80G's a year rather than minimum wage? Or why in suburban NY police officers make salaries in the low to mid 100's on par with primary care docs? It is because of strong united unions. If there was ever a time for doctors to unionize, NOW IS THE TIME.

Physician salaries in NY are screwed two ways. There is an excess of physicians because of a ridiculous number of Allo and Osteo med schools and numerous teaching hospitals. The malpractice is also the highest in the country. Excess supply and high costs make for low salaries.

If physicians from NY did not consider it beneath them to go to states like Alabama, they may find some measure of happiness.

The social standing of a physician in New York is average when many PCPs hardly make more than an experienced police officer. Physicians have to compete against corporate lawyers and wall streeters who earn significantly more than they do.

But move to Alabama. There a PCP earns 260k versus 40-50k that a police officer earns. There are not many people that have that kind of stature in the state. In society circles and country clubs, the members are often physicians. Physicians are very respected by their communities.

There is not a lot of clamor for physician unionization in the South because physicians here enjoy respect and high pay.

Quite frankly, unionization of physicians may actually lead to worse care. Look at what happened when nurses unionized in New York. As you guys have complained previously nursing is weak there. Down South the nurses are not unionized. In a community setting, they respect and obey legitimate orders from physicians without giving a lot of lip.


:thumbdown:
 
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Not sure unionization is the right answer but am sure that the AMA has ceased to do anything useful for physicians on Capitol Hill. So why don't we start another organization that actually lobbies for physicians. if the AMA won't do it, why not start something that does?
 
If every doctor goes on strike/protests, they can't arrest and lock up everyone can they? Some of the stuff Obama has been saying lately has been pretty damn ridiculous.

Edit: I've already emailed my congressmen regarding Obama's proposal. What more can I do to help?


It almost seems like he purposely dumbs down his words to pander to a particular group (lower educated middle class).

http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/archive/Tonsil-Doctors-Fight-Obama-Smear.html
 
The problem with this thread is that people who are against healthcare reform take any statement out of context and turn those statements against the person who stated them.

Sure I chuckled when I saw the Obama speech a few days ago, when he used that tonsillectomy example. It does show that he is not well versed in patient care. He's not a doctor, and it shows when he has to answer questions on the fly.

But his heart is in the right place. 40-50 million Americans are uninsured. They are dying due to lack of care. The deathtoll has got to be more than one hundred thousand a year.

How can a physician turn a blind eye to this predicament?

What are the sources of the fear of reform?
That answer is money, profit and greed.

It is understandable that physicians earning over 250k per year are wary of reforms that could possibly affect their earnings. Plus Obama plans on hitting them with a surtax on high income to pay for the changes which makes them understandably hate it even more.

But even with reforms, we will still have a fee for service system. If there are 40-50 million more patients with access to care, it could only mean more money for physicians. It means more patient visits, diagnostics, and procedures. The cost will be payed for by the rest of society while physicians in private practice will have a windfall.

The current system is broken and unjust. An uninsured patient who is least able to pay has to face excessively high charges that could amount to double to triple what an insured patient pays through an insurer. This occurs through a constant battle of insurers disallowing charges and providers responding by increasing charges. The uninsured gets walloped with that inflated charge, because by contract the insurer is predicating his allowable charges on what the providers charge to the community.

In comparing the reasons for reform, saving the lives of many Americans versus uncertain declines in compensation for physicians, a reasonable person would choose the former over the latter as being more just.

Of course this will bring us to another argument. Physicians deserve the high pay because of the brutal training requirements. They earn crap wages during training and amass large debt to obtain the medical education. Nobody can honestly say that they did not know this before they signed up for medical school. You do not go to medical school to become a millionare but many physicians do so anyway because the pay is still damn good. During your medical school interviews, did you say I want to make a lot of money as a reason for attending? Chances are the admissions committee would have questioned your suitability for medicine if you did so. Non-disclosure of such a sentiment should not free you of the social obligations of this profession. You probably said that you wanted to go to help others. Now once you are done, you have that chance.

Physicians also tend to forget when they are earning crap wages as a resident, their state and federal gov't subsidizes their training to the tune of 150k per year for a generalist, maybe more for a specialist. For example it could cost 450k to train an internist. If that internist gets a cardiology or GI fellowship expect to add another 600k. So to train those specialists it may cost government entities 1050k. Granted, subtract the direct wages and benefits of the resident/fellow during those years, the training subsidy may still exceed the average cost the resident accrues during medical school.

Physicians owe society a debt as much as society repays its physicians in respect and compensation. American physicians remain disproportionately compensated for their services. They may not earn in real dollars as much as a generation ago, but it is still alot by any standard except in NY.

In this debate about reform, just remember who you are fighting for. Hopefully it's that American who comes to see you without insurance that needs your help. You cut corners because they don't have the money to pay for the diagnostics. You prescibe generics. You negotiate with drug reps to get lots of samples to give away with a tacit understanding of returning the favor if they can just help your less fortunate patients. You accept 30 bucks cash for an office visit. Sometimes a family comes in with bronchitis but only the children are insured. You over-prescribe with the understanding the uninsured family members use the excess to get better so they can get back to work to support their families. I won't even go into the more extreme rule bending scenarios; but damn, a physician should not have to put his license on the line to improve the condition of another person.

The physicians that are most likely to witness how this situation is FUBAR are ER docs and PCPs that take Medicaid. Other physicians can just turf the ethical dilemmas by refusing to see such poor populations.

I just hope you guys understand that people are dying in numbers that dwarf 9-11 many fold. Things have got to change.
 
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Hopefully it's that American who comes to see you without insurance that needs your help.

It's hard for me to have much sympathy for people who don't have healthcare. Especially when at least 2 or 3 times a week I see patients in the clinic who have no insurance and are homeless, but yet they have a cell phone and are able to buy 12-18 beers per day to get wasted on. I'd like to know what percentage of American's with no health insurance/underinsured also have cable or satellite TV and a cell phone.
 
Running to work, so I can't respond to all of this (yet), but let me ask:

Of those beloved 44 million who "don't have any health coverage", how many choose not to? How many are actually eligible for medicaid/medicare, but don't fill out the paperwork? How many are illegal aliens, how many are children who's parents are between jobs?

The numbers have been crunched, and the number of Americans who have NO safety net is much, much smaller than 44 million.

The problem with this thread is that people who are against healthcare reform take any statement out of context and turn those statements against the person who stated them.

Sure I chuckled when I saw the Obama speech a few days ago, when he used that tonsillectomy example. It does show that he is not well versed in patient care. He's not a doctor, and it shows when he has to answer questions on the fly.

But his heart is in the right place. 40-50 million Americans are uninsured. They are dying due to lack of care. The deathtoll has got to be more than one hundred thousand a year.

How can a physician turn a blind eye to this predicament?

What are the sources of the fear of reform?
That answer is money, profit and greed.

It is understandable that physicians earning over 250k per year are wary of reforms that could possibly affect their earnings. Plus Obama plans on hitting them with a surtax on high income to pay for the changes which makes them understandably hate it even more.

But even with reforms, we will still have a fee for service system. If there are 40-50 million more patients with access to care, it could only mean more money for physicians. It means more patient visits, diagnostics, and procedures. The cost will be payed for by the rest of society while physicians in private practice will have a windfall.

The current system is broken and unjust. An uninsured patient who is least able to pay has to face excessively high charges that could amount to double to triple what an insured patient pays through an insurer. This occurs through a constant battle of insurers disallowing charges and providers responding by increasing charges. The uninsured gets walloped with that inflated charge, because by contract the insurer is predicating his allowable charges on what the providers charge to the community.

In comparing the reasons for reform, saving the lives of many Americans versus uncertain declines in compensation for physicians, a reasonable person would choose the former over the latter as being more just.

Of course this will bring us to another argument. Physicians deserve the high pay because of the brutal training requirements. They earn crap wages during training and amass large debt to obtain the medical education. Nobody can honestly say that they did not know this before they signed up for medical school. You do not go to medical school to become a millionare but many physicians do so anyway because the pay is still damn good. During your medical school interviews, did you say I want to make a lot of money as a reason for attending? Chances are the admissions committee would have questioned your suitability for medicine if you did so. Non-disclosure of such a sentiment should not free you of the social obligations of this profession. You probably said that you wanted to go to help others. Now once you are done, you have that chance.

Physicians also tend to forget when they are earning crap wages as a resident, their state and federal gov't subsidizes their training to the tune of 150k per year for a generalist, maybe more for a specialist. For example it could cost 450k to train an internist. If that internist gets a cardiology or GI fellowship expect to add another 600k. So to train those specialists it may cost government entities 1050k. Granted, subtract the direct wages and benefits of the resident/fellow during those years, the training subsidy may still exceed the average cost the resident accrues during medical school.

Physicians owe society a debt as much as society repays its physicians in respect and compensation. American physicians remain disproportionately compensated for their services. They may not earn in real dollars as much as a generation ago, but it is still alot by any standard except in NY.

In this debate about reform, just remember who you are fighting for. Hopefully it's that American who comes to see you without insurance that needs your help. You cut corners because they don't have the money to pay for the diagnostics. You prescibe generics. You negotiate with drug reps to get lots of samples to give away with a tacit understanding of returning the favor if they can just help your less fortunate patients. You accept 30 bucks cash for an office visit. Sometimes a family comes in with bronchitis but only the children are insured. You over-prescribe with the understanding the uninsured family members use the excess to get better so they can get back to work to support their families. I won't even go into the more extreme rule bending scenarios; but damn, a physician should not have to put his license on the line to improve the condition of another person.

The physicians that are most likely to witness how this situation is FUBAR are ER docs and PCPs that take Medicaid. Other physicians can just turf the ethical dilemmas by refusing to see such poor populations.

I just hope you guys understand that people are dying in numbers that dwarf 9-11 many fold. Things have got to change.
 
Dang, watching that clip almost made me miss Bush. :(

Since when do nurses go around 'treating' people? Did he mean NPs? And why does he seem so fixated on putting nurses on a pedestal while consistently belittling doctors every chance he gets?
 
I voted for obama and Im very dissapointed!!! wow. very dissapointed!!!
 
But his heart is in the right place. 40-50 million Americans are uninsured. They are dying due to lack of care. The deathtoll has got to be more than one hundred thousand a year.

How can a physician turn a blind eye to this predicament?

Fantastic post. Thanks. :thumbup:
 
It is understandable that physicians earning overIn this debate about reform, just remember who you are fighting for. Hopefully it's that American who comes to see you without insurance that needs your help. .
usually they prefer to buy a pack of cigarettes and drink in excess and do other stuff rather than manage their life responsibly.. You are fighting for them? I would venture to say that more than 50 percent of the people who dont have insurance dont have it because they dont want it. Cigarettes cost and its paraphanalia cost probably more than 10 dollars a day. you prolly can get some health coverage for that amount. the only exception to this is children under 18 years of age who should have coverage regardless no questions asked
 
It has to start with public education. Let them know how hard doctors work. How hard residents have to work, the hours they pull, the number of patients they see. Let the public know about reimbursements and the small % that gets to the physician. We need the public to support the physician. What the hell is AMA for anyway, what are they doing. Useless f...cks

Our image is tarnished. Look at what happened to Michael Jackson. A NURSE told him propofol was dangerous and its not a good idea to use but all the doctors were more than happy to prescribe away, use propofol recklessly ( allegedly). How does that do anything to our image? Who cares how hard we work to get where we are if we practice recklessly?
so your rhetoric while correct is not in keeping with how we practice or at least how many doctors practice to give us a bad name. And its all about the money in micheal jacksons case
 
If every doctor goes on strike/protests, they can't arrest and lock up everyone can they? Some of the stuff Obama has been saying lately has been pretty damn ridiculous.

Edit: I've already emailed my congressmen regarding Obama's proposal. What more can I do to help?

Would you mind sharing what you wrote? Does anyone want to share some "hard evidence" that backs up doctor's claims that the current suggestions for healthcare reform are bad for medicine (specifically not in the general sense with nursing, etc.)?
 
I am not so worried about my salary. I am not going into medicine for the money. But it will cost me around $350K just to get through school. How am I supposed to pay that back? What about a reasonable mortgage? What a bout replacing the clunker I have been driving since last century and will be driving for another 4-8 years? Most of the doctors I know are still paying for all of these things 15 years after school. Do they think all doctors pull down anesthesiology and neuro-surgeon paychecks?

I am looking at getting into family practice but how can I hope to support my family by doing so and lets face it, the bottom line for holding down a JOB is to pay the bills. The ends must justify the means.

Money, not being the issue, aside. What ever happened to patient rights? They are posted in every hospital. I had to regurgitate them to the proctor before I could shadow. Does no one realize that the age of patient rights is dead! Patient privacy is a thing of the past. Where is HIPAA? Surely they have lobbyists!

I am not so worried about doctors as I am about the patients. This is a sad turn of events for those that seek care. Patients are not going to get care from the nurses that the doctors do not prescribe and the doctors will not prescribe it because their hands will be tied by the bureaucratic shackles that are destroying this nation. This is not an attack against the doctors. This is an attack against the American people and the nurses association is selling us down the river on this one.:mad:

My gads Mansfield, open your eyes man!

Medicine is a service industry by its very nature. Physicians have no debt to society! A good physician does his best to serve his patients out of a love of medicine and charity towards his fellow man. If it is out of a feeling of indentured service then your medicine will fail! Primary Care Physicians are already in short supply, lets not promote them to the endangered species list by trying to tell them they owe it to society to serve.
 
And why does he seem so fixated on putting nurses on a pedestal while consistently belittling doctors every chance he gets?

He needs a group of medical "professionals" to back his reform.
The deal is, he calls them "doctor" and lets them stand thier like smiling idiots on the white house lawn and he, in turn, gets his d*ck sucked and an endorsement of his policy.

He'd let doctors blow him too but only the docs in the AMA got on thier knees.
 
I'd like to see Obama get a nurse to remove the burst appendix or colorectal tumour of himself or a family member and then see if he still sings the same tune...

:laugh:
 
The problem with this thread is that people who are against healthcare reform take any statement out of context and turn those statements against the person who stated them.

Sure I chuckled when I saw the Obama speech a few days ago, when he used that tonsillectomy example. It does show that he is not well versed in patient care. He's not a doctor, and it shows when he has to answer questions on the fly.

But his heart is in the right place. 40-50 million Americans are uninsured. They are dying due to lack of care. The deathtoll has got to be more than one hundred thousand a year.

How can a physician turn a blind eye to this predicament?

What are the sources of the fear of reform?
That answer is money, profit and greed.

It is understandable that physicians earning over 250k per year are wary of reforms that could possibly affect their earnings. Plus Obama plans on hitting them with a surtax on high income to pay for the changes which makes them understandably hate it even more.

But even with reforms, we will still have a fee for service system. If there are 40-50 million more patients with access to care, it could only mean more money for physicians. It means more patient visits, diagnostics, and procedures. The cost will be payed for by the rest of society while physicians in private practice will have a windfall.

The current system is broken and unjust. An uninsured patient who is least able to pay has to face excessively high charges that could amount to double to triple what an insured patient pays through an insurer. This occurs through a constant battle of insurers disallowing charges and providers responding by increasing charges. The uninsured gets walloped with that inflated charge, because by contract the insurer is predicating his allowable charges on what the providers charge to the community.

In comparing the reasons for reform, saving the lives of many Americans versus uncertain declines in compensation for physicians, a reasonable person would choose the former over the latter as being more just.

Of course this will bring us to another argument. Physicians deserve the high pay because of the brutal training requirements. They earn crap wages during training and amass large debt to obtain the medical education. Nobody can honestly say that they did not know this before they signed up for medical school. You do not go to medical school to become a millionare but many physicians do so anyway because the pay is still damn good. During your medical school interviews, did you say I want to make a lot of money as a reason for attending? Chances are the admissions committee would have questioned your suitability for medicine if you did so. Non-disclosure of such a sentiment should not free you of the social obligations of this profession. You probably said that you wanted to go to help others. Now once you are done, you have that chance.

Physicians also tend to forget when they are earning crap wages as a resident, their state and federal gov't subsidizes their training to the tune of 150k per year for a generalist, maybe more for a specialist. For example it could cost 450k to train an internist. If that internist gets a cardiology or GI fellowship expect to add another 600k. So to train those specialists it may cost government entities 1050k. Granted, subtract the direct wages and benefits of the resident/fellow during those years, the training subsidy may still exceed the average cost the resident accrues during medical school.

Physicians owe society a debt as much as society repays its physicians in respect and compensation. American physicians remain disproportionately compensated for their services. They may not earn in real dollars as much as a generation ago, but it is still alot by any standard except in NY.

In this debate about reform, just remember who you are fighting for. Hopefully it's that American who comes to see you without insurance that needs your help. You cut corners because they don't have the money to pay for the diagnostics. You prescibe generics. You negotiate with drug reps to get lots of samples to give away with a tacit understanding of returning the favor if they can just help your less fortunate patients. You accept 30 bucks cash for an office visit. Sometimes a family comes in with bronchitis but only the children are insured. You over-prescribe with the understanding the uninsured family members use the excess to get better so they can get back to work to support their families. I won't even go into the more extreme rule bending scenarios; but damn, a physician should not have to put his license on the line to improve the condition of another person.

The physicians that are most likely to witness how this situation is FUBAR are ER docs and PCPs that take Medicaid. Other physicians can just turf the ethical dilemmas by refusing to see such poor populations.

I just hope you guys understand that people are dying in numbers that dwarf 9-11 many fold. Things have got to change.
I am all for reform only if president Obama reform other areas too eg. free medical education like other countries, ban all litigations, ban all malparactice insurance, restrict working hours only 9am-5pm for all physicians, no calls, no more rewards to those making irresponsible choices -- continue abuse substances, keep having babies while on welfare.no more confusing public by saying NPs=MDs...etc .
Before anyone proposes health care reform, he/she should consider what exactly causing the skyrocketing health care cost and deal with those causes.
 
Reform's ass.... no one in DC is addressing reform despite all the libtard speak. This is a power grab into 17% of the economy, thrusting the government into more affairs of an individual nature, the creation of a new redistributionist entitlement, and a furthering of the welfare state.

CapFP, you can hang yourself up on society's cross of martyrdom if you wish, but do not presume to preach to or impose the same fate upon those of us who do not wish to do the same. Government should not confiscate from labor the fruits of their efforts; everyone deserves a fair wage for services rendered.
 
usually they prefer to buy a pack of cigarettes and drink in excess and do other stuff rather than manage their life responsibly.. You are fighting for them? I would venture to say that more than 50 percent of the people who dont have insurance dont have it because they dont want it. Cigarettes cost and its paraphanalia cost probably more than 10 dollars a day. you prolly can get some health coverage for that amount. the only exception to this is children under 18 years of age who should have coverage regardless no questions asked

Actually, I am fighting for them. I find it sad that you are not. Unfortunately, many americans are very short sighted, living only in the present, and spend all of their paychecks on things that I would consider a waste. This is unfortunate, but it is the truth. The government takes taxes directly out of paychecks, because if they gave most people all of the money and then billed for taxes at the end of the year, most would have spent it. In the same way, we need to force everyone to have medical insurance. Whether that comes from the government, private sector, or some combination I really don't care.
 
The problem with this thread is that people who are against healthcare reform take any statement out of context and turn those statements against the person who stated them.

Sure I chuckled when I saw the Obama speech a few days ago, when he used that tonsillectomy example. It does show that he is not well versed in patient care. He's not a doctor, and it shows when he has to answer questions on the fly.

I dont think his statements are taken out of context, when his chiding of doctors is a recurring theme. We are an easy group to scapegoat, well compensated and without a powerful lobby.

But his heart is in the right place. 40-50 million Americans are uninsured. They are dying due to lack of care. The deathtoll has got to be more than one hundred thousand a year.

How can a physician turn a blind eye to this predicament?

Really you think it is physcians who are turning a blind eye to the predicament of their patients??

What are the sources of the fear of reform?
That answer is money, profit and greed.
I want even justify this with an answer..

It is understandable that physicians earning over 250k per year are wary of reforms that could possibly affect their earnings. Plus Obama plans on hitting them with a surtax on high income to pay for the changes which makes them understandably hate it even more.

But even with reforms, we will still have a fee for service system. If there are 40-50 million more patients with access to care, it could only mean more money for physicians. It means more patient visits, diagnostics, and procedures. The cost will be payed for by the rest of society while physicians in private practice will have a windfall.
I guess our fear and greed must have blinded us, we are only going to get richer!!!

The current system is broken and unjust. An uninsured patient who is least able to pay has to face excessively high charges that could amount to double to triple what an insured patient pays through an insurer. This occurs through a constant battle of insurers disallowing charges and providers responding by increasing charges. The uninsured gets walloped with that inflated charge, because by contract the insurer is predicating his allowable charges on what the providers charge to the community.

In comparing the reasons for reform, saving the lives of many Americans versus uncertain declines in compensation for physicians, a reasonable person would choose the former over the latter as being more just.
Why yes that seems totally logical. Is'nt most the money spent in healthcare going into doctor's pockets.

Of course this will bring us to another argument. Physicians deserve the high pay because of the brutal training requirements. They earn crap wages during training and amass large debt to obtain the medical education. Nobody can honestly say that they did not know this before they signed up for medical school. You do not go to medical school to become a millionare but many physicians do so anyway because the pay is still damn good. During your medical school interviews, did you say I want to make a lot of money as a reason for attending? Chances are the admissions committee would have questioned your suitability for medicine if you did so. Non-disclosure of such a sentiment should not free you of the social obligations of this profession. You probably said that you wanted to go to help others. Now once you are done, you have that chance.
We are all just as cynical as you and went into it for the money. You caught us.

Physicians also tend to forget when they are earning crap wages as a resident, their state and federal gov't subsidizes their training to the tune of 150k per year for a generalist, maybe more for a specialist. For example it could cost 450k to train an internist. If that internist gets a cardiology or GI fellowship expect to add another 600k. So to train those specialists it may cost government entities 1050k. Granted, subtract the direct wages and benefits of the resident/fellow during those years, the training subsidy may still exceed the average cost the resident accrues during medical school.
Medicare pays for 5 years of residency to the institution you train at, not to the doctor. Having residents is usually a financial boon to the hospital.

Physicians owe society a debt as much as society repays its physicians in respect and compensation. American physicians remain disproportionately compensated for their services. They may not earn in real dollars as much as a generation ago, but it is still alot by any standard except in NY.
While trading salaries for respect is arguable. I dont think the majority of physicians feel disproportionately paid for their services. While most other professions have seen an increase in salaries, doctors in every specialty have taken a hit.


In this debate about reform, just remember who you are fighting for. Hopefully it's that American who comes to see you without insurance that needs your help. You cut corners because they don't have the money to pay for the diagnostics. You prescibe generics. You negotiate with drug reps to get lots of samples to give away with a tacit understanding of returning the favor if they can just help your less fortunate patients. You accept 30 bucks cash for an office visit. Sometimes a family comes in with bronchitis but only the children are insured. You over-prescribe with the understanding the uninsured family members use the excess to get better so they can get back to work to support their families. I won't even go into the more extreme rule bending scenarios; but damn, a physician should not have to put his license on the line to improve the condition of another person.

The physicians that are most likely to witness how this situation is FUBAR are ER docs and PCPs that take Medicaid. Other physicians can just turf the ethical dilemmas by refusing to see such poor populations.

I just hope you guys understand that people are dying in numbers that dwarf 9-11 many fold. Things have got to change.


The problem is you are preaching to the quire. I think most physicians know people are dying due to poor care. Most of us agree the system needs to change.

The thing that begrudges most of us is the white wash and the rhetoric. There is not going to be any real change, and we can see the cynical reforms they are pushing.
 
Our image is tarnished. Look at what happened to Michael Jackson. A NURSE told him propofol was dangerous and its not a good idea to use but all the doctors were more than happy to prescribe away, use propofol recklessly ( allegedly). How does that do anything to our image? Who cares how hard we work to get where we are if we practice recklessly?
so your rhetoric while correct is not in keeping with how we practice or at least how many doctors practice to give us a bad name. And its all about the money in micheal jacksons case

Practice recklessly? >90% of physicians I know, who happen to be surgeons by the way, absoloutely do NOT practice recklessly. In fact, they go out of their way to practice safely and efficiently to give care patients, many of whom are immigrants, illegal by the way, don't have insurance, will probably never pay their bills to the surgeon, and on top of it all, are the most demanding.

In fact, our professional is the most self scrutinizing group of people there are on this planet. For god's sake, we hold weekly morbidity and mortality conference where we scrutinize the physician's work in front of his or her peers. From the first day you start your internship to the last day of residency and continuing on as an attending, the physician is constantly watched by the administration, colleagues, nurses, chairman, directors, residents, governing bodies, etc. In no other industry this level of self scrutiny exists.

We hold ourselves to high standards, believe that. Because, we take care of people's lives, and as surgeons, especially, save lives on a regular basis. In any field, there will be a few who will abuse the system and dishonor their profession. Why do you use the Micheal Jackson case to criminalize an entire profession is beyond me. Do you have an axe to grind? Why are you feeding the opposition with bull**** arguments. Look around and consider your colleagues in the hospitals. How many are hard working, intelligent, ethical individuals who do their work every day taking care of patients and almost never get a pat on the back by the hospital administration, the media, nor the public.
 
I've been keeping my eye on Obama, and this is at least the 7th or 8th different slam he's made on doctors since presidency. Its not just a one time thing, he keeps repeating the same BS over and over again.

I get the fact that he needs to be a sellout. Tell the nurses that they are "key" to healthcare, tell them they work hard, tell them they are smart, etc. But why does EVERY SINGLE FREAKING comment that Obama makes about nurses always framed as "nurses are better than doctors" BS? I dont get it. Its like the man is not capable of just complementing nurses without putting doctors down.

It was the doctors, not the nurses, who decided which antibiotic to give to his little girl with meningitis.

It was the doctors, not the nurses, who did the lumbar puncture.

If there were no nurses around the doctor would have done the LP, given the antibiotics and the girl would have lived.

If there were no doctors around, there would be no LP, nobody would have ever known she had meningitis, and she'd be dead within 72 hours.

I get it that nurses are important. I get it that nurses are valuable. But I'm getting fed up with Obama's BS where he feels its necessary to pit nurses against doctors at every single turn.
 
From a Canadian (and UK perspective) I can say that the US is unique for the massive number and types of mid-levels. Universal healthcare in Canada and the UK have actually empowered the physicians who maintain a traditional role as team leader and nurses are proud to nurse and have little interest in practising medicine.
 
From a Canadian (and UK perspective) I can say that the US is unique for the massive number and types of mid-levels. Universal healthcare in Canada and the UK have actually empowered the physicians who maintain a traditional role as team leader and nurses are proud to nurse and have little interest in practising medicine.

You're saying that NPs and PAs dont have as much authority there or what? Are they allowed to see patients on their own?
 
How many are hard working, intelligent, ethical individuals who do their work every day taking care of patients and almost never get a pat on the back by the hospital administration, the media, nor the public.
Why would you want a pat on the back??? This what you chose to go into. You asked for the long hours, hard work, the endless beauracracy, the petty politics, and diminshing wages. You knew that before you went to med school.
 
You're saying that NPs and PAs dont have as much authority there or what? Are they allowed to see patients on their own?

PA's have only been certified since 2003 and it is an extension of the military PA model. Only a couple programs exist here. There are plenty of Canadian educated physicians available plus the recent acceptance of Canadian citizen IMGs leaves little room for mid-levels.

NP's are brand new and only exist in two of the boonie provinces.

EDIT: They exist in most provinces but are only protected titles in the two mentioned above. They ONLY work under MD supervision.
 
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PA's have only been certified since 2003 and it is an extension of the military PA model. Only a couple programs exist here. There are plenty of Canadian educated physicians available plus the recent acceptance of Canadian citizen IMGs leaves little room for mid-levels.

NP's are brand new and only exist in two of the boonie provinces.

EDIT: They exist in most provinces but are only protected titles in the two mentioned above. They ONLY work under MD supervision.



Eh....

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1964607


NP's in the UK are doing solo surgeries for "minor procedures". Above is carpal tunnel performing NPs.

They have quite the interest in practicing medicine. The above was implemented to "decrease wait times".
 
Wow, did not know that. Once again, it seems that "situational" or "temporary backlogs" are opening the door. But to reiterate my point about responsibility and overall traditional roles...from the same link...

"We would emphasise that the nurse is not an independent practitioner, but functions as part of a team. Ultimate responsibility lies with the three supervising consultants."

Eh....

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1964607


NP's in the UK are doing solo surgeries for "minor procedures". Above is carpal tunnel performing NPs.

They have quite the interest in practicing medicine. The above was implemented to "decrease wait times".
 
this comes down to perception. what one actually accomplishes, knows, or does is much less important than how one is perceived.

Most patients are intellectually disadvantaged and are only able to appreciate what they directly witness. So they see nurses who hold their hand and wipe their nose, but where is the doctor all this time? Patients don't care that a doctor may be managing 3-4X the workload of a nurse and dealing with more complex aspects of their care. They can't see any of this and more importantly, this doesn't directly benefit them at all. Patients are selfish and only care about themselves, and that's what this is really a reflection of.
 
If it is mostly image (which we know it is) then where are the people on our side making sure that we have a honest but realistic PR campaign making sure people know what physicians do and why we cannot be replaced with people who lack the proper training and education?



this comes down to perception. what one actually accomplishes, knows, or does is much less important than how one is perceived.

Most patients are intellectually disadvantaged and are only able to appreciate what they directly witness. So they see nurses who hold their hand and wipe their nose, but where is the doctor all this time? Patients don't care that a doctor may be managing 3-4X the workload of a nurse and dealing with more complex aspects of their care. They can't see any of this and more importantly, this doesn't directly benefit them at all. Patients are selfish and only care about themselves, and that's what this is really a reflection of.
 
NPs have no interest in holding hands & wiping noses. They delegate that task to real nurses. once NP's achieve a critical mass of DNP's, I predict they will use a play from the osteopathic book and sue doctors for antitrust to gain practice privileges & independence.

Unless... NPs take a play out of the naturopath & homeopath's playbook, start killing people & get shut down as quacks.

It'll be interesting...
 
Look on the bright side. At least Obama isn't bitch slapping our Surgeon General like they do in the Czech Republic.

[YOUTUBE]-3B7nApQ-II[/YOUTUBE]
 
What are the sources of the fear of reform?
That answer is money, profit and greed.
What I don't understand is why is it when doctors fight to not even increase reimbursements, but to keep them from going down, it's perceived as the result of greed? Medicine is not the only profession that helps people; most professions out there help people in some way or the other. However, when, for example, the auto workers get angered about possible pay cuts or if the nurses go on strike, no one calls them greedy or not caring about human beings, etc. What's so wrong about fighting to keep your income level from going down?

Sure, you could argue that one could live comfortably with lesser amounts of money, but how many other professions require such a long and hard training period before seeing any rewards? How many other professions require you to go into as much debt as a medical education does? I'm just a premed so maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way, but I feel like what I'm saying makes some sense at least.
 
No doctor (MD, DO, OD, DPM, DDS/DMD) should have ever voted for the socialist Mr. Obama. If this "health care initiative" in its current form gets pushed through and 48 million so called "uninsured" latch onto a government option how the hell do you think medicine is going to be able to support that? DNP's of which there are now over 2000 graduates per year being churned out with numbers increasing will make a case that supply is not meeting demand. Access to care will push their agendas through state legislatures. In 10 years family practice MD's will be competing directly with family practice DNP's in a number of states. Medicine is legislatively fighting on several fronts===> midlevels (DNP's etc...), doctors of podiatric medicine, doctors of optometry, etc.....and they are fragmented because of this. They really need to stop worrying about if podatrists in one state want to operate "above the ankle" or if optometrists in another state wish to to do a periocular injection. BIG WASTE OF MONEY AND TIME......Rather, they should focus their efforts on the biggest threat-----> socialized health care and DNP's with their powerful nursing lobby infiltrating primary care medicine at all levels. Remember in 11 states nurse practitioners are autonomous and that number will eventually grow if Obama has his way.
 
wow, it's depressing to see how clueless Obama is about how healthcare works. I wish the nurses would "buck me up" as an intern, unfortunately they've been pretty useless in giving me any advice about patient care. They know how to do their job but they certainly don't know much medicine. What pisses me off most is how he portrays nurses as working more. Is he kidding?

So little sympathy on here for the alcoholics and drug addicts. These people have tough lives, often they've been abused or have psych issues, if anything they are in more need of healthcare than anyone and just because they suffer from an addiction does not mean they don't develop disease which may or may not be related to their lifestyle that shouldn't be treated. Also, a cell phone is like, waaaay less expensive than buying health insurance if you're unemployed (around $300/mo), It's also sort of a necessity. If you're homeless and have no job how are you supposed to apply for jobs or look for housing without some way to communicate?

We should go to a single-payer government system. All the money is being sucked up by insurance companies and administrative costs, doctors' salaries are a drop in the bucket. The answer is obvious but it'll never happen. Sigh.
 
Obama is kissing ass so heavily to the nursing movement that its gross!! I voted for obama and although I approved/support much of what he's doing in regards to other problems Im very dissapointed in how he's tackling this healthcare issue.
 
What I don't understand is why is it when doctors fight to not even increase reimbursements, but to keep them from going down, it's perceived as the result of greed? Medicine is not the only profession that helps people; most professions out there help people in some way or the other. However, when, for example, the auto workers get angered about possible pay cuts or if the nurses go on strike, no one calls them greedy or not caring about human beings, etc. What's so wrong about fighting to keep your income level from going down?

Sure, you could argue that one could live comfortably with lesser amounts of money, but how many other professions require such a long and hard training period before seeing any rewards? How many other professions require you to go into as much debt as a medical education does? I'm just a premed so maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way, but I feel like what I'm saying makes some sense at least.

maybe you should rethink your decision to embark on a long arduoous torturous journey tos tudy medicine .
 
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