Research ethics: was this unprofessional of me?

[Doctor_Strange]

I submitted a poster after getting edits from the faculty attendings. The plan was to submit the poster to a journal (letter to editor style, short text). I did not even change the text of the poster and submitted it as such based on previous email correspondence. One attending responded, but the other did not. It is the one that did not who was frustrated after the fact that I never sent a formal draft for approval (the other attending did not care). Again, the text was unchanged from the poster. Was I in the wrong? I looked back at the previous email correspondence, and I suppose it was not 100% clear or agreed upon by everyone. In the past, I would write out a poster more thoroughly and send it for review for the attendings. As I said, in this case, it was entirely unchanged.

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[DrMetal]

I submitted a poster after getting edits from the faculty attendings. The plan was to submit the poster to a journal (letter to editor style, short text). I did not even change the text of the poster and submitted it as such based on previous email correspondence. One attending responded, but the other did not. It is the one that did not who was frustrated after the fact that I never sent a formal draft for approval (the other attending did not care). Again, the text was unchanged from the poster. Was I in the wrong? I looked back at the previous email correspondence, and I suppose it was not 100% clear or agreed upon by everyone. In the past, I would write out a poster more thoroughly and send it for review for the attendings. As I said, in this case, it was entirely unchanged.

I don't think you were wrong. The frustrated attending sounds like a little b#$ch. But then again, in residency, you will encounter many of those. Don't poke those bears. Completing your residency is more important than any research.

 

[Doctor_Strange]

I don't think you were wrong. The frustrated attending sounds like a little b#$ch. But then again, in residency, you will encounter many of those. Don't poke those bears. Completing your residency is more important than any research.

I looked back at the previous email correspondence in which I stated the intention of submitting to a journal and I suppose I never made it clear that I was going to submit the exact same text. Honestly, in the past, most attendings I have worked with have not cared either way and I would only occasionally send a draft if I am struggling with the write-up.

Just feel stupid at upsetting this attending...

 

[DrMetal]

Just feel stupid at upsetting this attending...

Don't be. Some attendings are very petty. [It's mainly a manifestation of their own insecurities, which stem from working in a profession that's a pseudoscience and riddled with uncertainty.]

But, it stands to reason that you shouldn't piss off too many of them. Again, graduating from residency is more important than anything else. Just don't do it again, and try to stay away from that D-bag. And when you become an attending yourself, don't be that guy.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Would depend on the wording of the email. I would generally not expect someone to submit the text from a poster verbatim as a journal article, so it is plausible that the annoyed attending didn’t consider such a possibility.

In general before submitting a paper I would circulate the formal manuscript including formatting for the journal to co authors. Then say “please respond within 7 days if you have any comments.” If no one responds then, then they have no recourse

 

[rokshana]

Didn’t you post this on the physician community fb pg?

If not, you didn’t necessarily do anything egregious or unethical…however, people can get sensitive about where their name goes… and if the faculty member didn’t give you the gpa head to include them on the article, it would have been better to have left them off the article.
If this faculty member is important to your career aspirations, you should sit down with them and discuss expectations going forward.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Never submit anything for publication, in any format, without all author's permission.

I would also not recommend "just removing someone." That can also make people pretty upset.

I would give people more than 7 days. People take vacations, have clinical assignments, etc.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Never submit anything for publication, in any format, without all author's permission.

I would also not recommend "just removing someone." That can also make people pretty upset.

I would give people more than 7 days. People take vacations, have clinical assignments, etc.

I guess I feel two ways about this. While in a perfect world, of course every single author should explicitly review any publication and consent for submission, when you're herding 25+ authors, some of whom have left the institution, others of whom had relatively peripheral involvement but still deserve authorship... this becomes unfeasible. There are usually a core 5-10 authors with the greatest amount of intellectual input who really need to weigh in.

That said, that is probably not what happened here. It sounds like there is a relatively small number of authors on this, and if that is the case it is probably worth getting explicit permission before submitting from each author. Somewhere between 7-21 days is a reasonable amount of time, depending on the content of the paper and the level of edits that have already been made, and as the first author you absolutely should remind people as your target submission date is approaching (i.e. if you gave them 7 days, remind them when there are 3 days left, then the day before submission... then text them on the day of submission if you still haven't heard from someone).

Basically, preparing a paper for submission--any paper, even a letter--is a dance. You need to circulate a real draft, and you need to engage your co-authors throughout the process.

 

[Dr.LeoSpaceman]

The plan was to submit the poster to a journal (letter to editor style, short text).

The answer to this question really hinges on this sentence. You mention it was "the plan", but how explicit was the plan? Unless you specifically said "I'm submitting this poster, then reformatting it without changing the text and submitting for publication in [insert journal]", then yes, you made a mistake.

You asked about the ethics of the situation, and almost all journals I'm aware of include a checkbox somewhere that states all authors agree with submission of the manuscript. So if they didn't explicitly agree with the submission, they could make noise.

All that being said, things can be different in "the real world". There are some faculty who are ok with just being a rubber stamp (which has its own issues). But unless you know that's how they operate, you have to go through the process.

At the end of the day, it's unlikely to be a big deal if you go back and smooth it over with the person. You've also learned a lesson that everyone learns at some point: Upfront, clear communication regarding research is critical. It's the only way to avoid situations like this.

 

[mistafab]

I would just say research is a small world, and I would avoid stepping on toes.

I would apologize to this person and move on. Don’t sweat it too much. If you want a long, happy research career - don’t step on toes like this.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

I guess I feel two ways about this. While in a perfect world, of course every single author should explicitly review any publication and consent for submission, when you're herding 25+ authors, some of whom have left the institution, others of whom had relatively peripheral involvement but still deserve authorship... this becomes unfeasible. There are usually a core 5-10 authors with the greatest amount of intellectual input who really need to weigh in.

That said, that is probably not what happened here. It sounds like there is a relatively small number of authors on this, and if that is the case it is probably worth getting explicit permission before submitting from each author. Somewhere between 7-21 days is a reasonable amount of time, depending on the content of the paper and the level of edits that have already been made, and as the first author you absolutely should remind people as your target submission date is approaching (i.e. if you gave them 7 days, remind them when there are 3 days left, then the day before submission... then text them on the day of submission if you still haven't heard from someone).

Basically, preparing a paper for submission--any paper, even a letter--is a dance. You need to circulate a real draft, and you need to engage your co-authors throughout the process.

I agree with a lot of this.

As a fellow, something like this happened with an article and several posters we submitted. My attending and I were working with several attendings in a different department for these projects. About 5 attendings from this other department were going to be listed as authors. We sent drafts of the posters and paper to each of these authors several times, and tried to contact each of them nine ways to Sunday. Only about half of them ever got back to us, and one just replied with something borderline useless (“ok”). Finally my attending just threw up his hands and said “submit it”. We had a conference deadline coming and we didn’t want to miss it because these people couldn’t be bothered to get back to us (this was over the course of 2-3 months or so).

It sounds vague here, but if you had previous email correspondence outlining that you were going to submit the paper that way, then it is what it is. You’re the trainee here and it doesn’t sound to me like you were trying to do anything nefarious. When trainees are working with research, the expectation is (or at least should be!) that there will need to be a lot of handholding and guidance from attendings who have experience with this process. It sounds to me like they dropped the ball on that, not you. They needed to be available to help you through the process. Unprofessional? I don’t think so. Apologize etc, but both you and the attendings need to move on from this. They should be happy that you’re motivated.

(Also, if the article sucks in current form, it will most likely get rejected and/or have edits demanded by the journal in question.)

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Don’t most journals require all authors to approve before submission anyway?

 

[gutonc]

Don’t most journals require all authors to approve before submission anyway?

Yes. But many journals have an opt-out option rather than an opt-in. So you'll get an email saying "Dr. Singh submitted this article and you're listed as an author. If you do not approve this, click here. Otherwise, we will assume you approve." I've had a few papers that went that way. The good journals will require a formal affirmation.