Concerned about the salary of a Psychologist - Please help!

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
M

mssopranogirl

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2009
Messages
28
Reaction score
0
Hey guys! I wanted to ask your advice/opinion on this issue. I've wanted to be a Clinical Psychologist for a very long time but something bothers me. I'm concerned about the earnings. Realistically, how hard is it to set up a successful private practice (in light of competition, the field being saturated by more and more graduates, marketing, etc...)? What are realistic earnings? I hear stories about Clinical Psychologists with their own practice making $100k+ but what about in general? Are there Clinical Psychs who have a difficult time? What about Masters level clinicians who start up their own practice? The field is completely SATURATED with masters level clinicians. I searched on Psychology Today for therapists and found in excess of 100+ masters level clinicians in my area. That, to me, is a bad sign. I would guess competition for clients is VERY keen. Am I correct?

When it comes down to it, even though I really enjoy psychology, I would most enjoy somewhat lucrative financial stability. That being said, is clinical psychology a semi-lucrative and financially stable career? Thanks for reading!
Members don't see this ad.
 
mssopranogirl said:
Hey guys! I wanted to ask your advice/opinion on this issue. I've wanted to be a Clinical Psychologist for a very long time but something bothers me. I'm concerned about the earnings. Realistically, how hard is it to set up a successful private practice (in light of competition, the field being saturated by more and more graduates, marketing, etc...)? What are realistic earnings? I hear stories about Clinical Psychologists with their own practice making $100k+ but what about in general? Are there Clinical Psychs who have a difficult time? What about Masters level clinicians who start up their own practice? The field is completely SATURATED with masters level clinicians. I searched on Psychology Today for therapists and found in excess of 100+ masters level clinicians in my area. That, to me, is a bad sign. I would guess competition for clients is VERY keen. Am I correct?

When it comes down to it, even though I really enjoy psychology, I would most enjoy somewhat lucrative financial stability. That being said, is clinical psychology a semi-lucrative and financially stable career? Thanks for reading!
Click to expand...

Go to the APA website and review the salary survey data.
 
Last edited:
-psychology is not a financially stable carreer, depending.

in response to your questions:

1) in my experience, it is INCREDIBLY difficult to set up a private practice. startup costs can exceed 100k. can you tolerate owing this much? can you tolerate potentially earning $0/mo? can you put off getting a house (maxing out your credit)? the market is saturated, unless you have some special SERVICE to offer. (being smart or caring or whatever does not count). i am going to guess that general psychotherapy is not going to cut it in your area.

2) realistic in what regard? if you want to get a job and work 9-5, the average salary is something like 60k. private practice income really depends on your business acumen.

3) yes, there are psychologists who have a problem making money/can't make a living only in private practice. i see a lot of spouses financially supporting psychologists.

4) MA level people have the same thing, except they get paid less.

5) Is psychology lucrative? As an employee, it pays similar to a UPS truck driver. As a private practitioner, it can be very lucrative. Private practice is a lot like the stock market: some people can just kill it, some people lose everything they have trying to make money.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
PSYDR said:
-psychology is not a financially stable carreer, depending.

5) Is psychology lucrative? As an employee, it pays similar to a UPS truck driver. As a private practitioner, it can be very lucrative. Private practice is a lot like the stock market: some people can just kill it, some people lose everything they have trying to make money.
Click to expand...

Nah, that's not true (unless you are only talking entry level). It's *highly* variable depending on the setting and the individual. I work with several clinical psychology "employees" who make well over $100,000 per year with excellent benefits and one is pushing $200K (with employer paid retirement, vacation, and health insurance). Of course, these people make that much because they have skills that are well above and beyond your average clinical psychologist. Granted, that's not the norm, but to say you get paid like a UPS driver as an employee is not accurate. It depends on the type of setting, the employer, and the individual.
 
Here is how I rank things in order of importance.

1. Business smarts
2. Good business plan
3. Networking skills
4. The right market / "demand"
5. The right skill-set / specialized training / "supply"
6. Clinical skills
7. Where you went to school / internship / post-doc

#7 may rank higher depending on the area of the country you wish to practice, particularly if you are in a saturated market and/or big city.
 
from the Reuters (i assume they check their facts:

"The average UPS driver's annual salary of $55,000 can rise to $70,000 with overtime"


from the APA salary survey 2003 of direct human service providers:

median for a group private practice from 5-9 years of experience = 52k

median for a group privatve practice 30+ years = 88k

median for a community mental health clinic after 15-19yrs = 58k.

median for a clinical psychologist at a VA for 29yrs= 80k (the VA also doesn't have a retirement plan)

so rick55,

based upon actual published data and not anecdotal evidence, my statements seem pretty accurate.
 
wow I'm surprised, UPS truck drivers make decent money. How keen is the competition for 9-5 psychology jobs (ie. working for hospitals, government, non-profit agencies, etc)? How flexible are these jobs?
 
mssopranogirl said:
wow I'm surprised, UPS truck drivers make decent money. How keen is the competition for 9-5 psychology jobs (ie. working for hospitals, government, non-profit agencies, etc)? How flexible are these jobs?
Click to expand...


From someone just now entering the job market, I can tell you that compettition is keen. Not because there are too many psychologists per se, but because every other mental health care profession can legally do what a psychologist does. This coupled with the fact tat psychologists can't bill very much more than master's level providers means that psychologists cannot justify the higher income they require. As a result, the facilities hire master's level providers all the time.

If you are even remotely concerned about $$, or think you will be concerned in the future (e.g., you want a family, a house, etc), DO NOT make my mistake and go into this field.
 
PSYDR said:
-psychology is not a financially stable carreer, depending.

in response to your questions:

1) in my experience, it is INCREDIBLY difficult to set up a private practice. startup costs can exceed 100k. can you tolerate owing this much? can you tolerate potentially earning $0/mo? can you put off getting a house (maxing out your credit)? the market is saturated, unless you have some special SERVICE to offer. (being smart or caring or whatever does not count). i am going to guess that general psychotherapy is not going to cut it in your area.
Click to expand...

100k to startup a practice? Where is that $$ coming from? Granted I'm not yet in the "real world" but outside of 12k-25k/year in rent/utilities, 2k furnishings/supplies, couple 100 to wine and dine referral sources, and maybe a few bucks for some nice shoes... what else?
 
You have to ask yourself why you are getting into the field. For myself, I was making more working in computers before I finished my college degree than I will make for quite a few years with my Ph.D. I had an offer to stay at the company I worked for but I turned it down. Why? Because the job stressed me out too much. Yes, psychology can stress me out. Grad school can certainly stress me out. However, I love what I do. I love being here doing this. When I read threads like this the thought of leaving the field does always cross my mind...I know I could make much better money elsewhere. However, is it worth being miserable? If I make 60k a year, and my spouse makes the same, I think we can swing it. We won't be able to live as fancy as some, we won't have all of the latest and greatest, but perhaps that is a good thing (or perhaps that is just how I justify it in my head).
 
It's not that I need to be making tons of money, but I'd like to at least have a financially secure career making decent money. What's your opinion on the future of psychology? Do you see it as a growing field with anticipated demand in the future? Or not?
 
edieb said:
If you are even remotely concerned about $$, or think you will be concerned in the future (e.g., you want a family, a house, etc), DO NOT make my mistake and go into this field.
Click to expand...

Edieb is right, it's a tough market out there. You can succeed and you don't have to starve, but you might have to make other compromises. I traded some of my freedom for benefits, stability, and salary. I am happy with my choice, but if you think you can graduate, just hang out a shingle, and make a fair living... probably not. It takes a good business plan, networking skills, and the right market to make it work well.

Expect the UPS man to make more than you, especially after you factor in his employee held stock. An established private practice can do quite well... I don't want to sound all doom and gloom.

Mark
 
Last edited by a moderator:
appelsoranjes said:
100k to startup a practice? Where is that $$ coming from? Granted I'm not yet in the "real world" but outside of 12k-25k/year in rent/utilities, 2k furnishings/supplies, couple 100 to wine and dine referral sources, and maybe a few bucks for some nice shoes... what else?
Click to expand...

I would double that budget.

1. Without a support person to handle billing and office chores, you are going to end up wasting much of your time (which is more valuable) doing labor a $10-$15/hr employee should do.

2. If you locate your office in a ghetto, then $2k of furnishings and supplies will make clients feel right at home.

3. $25k for rent and utilities, sure, that sounds reasonable for most places outside of major metropolitan areas.

Mark
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Markp said:
I would double that budget.

1. Without a support person to handle billing and office chores, you are going to end up wasting much of your time (which is more valuable) doing labor a $10-$15/hr employee should do.


wow, if my support staff were to make $15/hour , they will be making more than I will, especially when you factor in my student loan debt from my "fully funded PhD program"
Click to expand...
 
eatsleeppsych said:
One thing I find kind of odd is that all these threads on money seem to ignore the other major career option for a psych phd: academia. So I guess I'll pose the question, for those of us strictly interested in research careers, is the situation as dire? Many of these threads focus on the horror stories of trying to succeed as a clinician, but how does it look out there for those of us wanting to focus on research?
Click to expand...
It seems that less tenure-track positions are available now than say...10 years ago. I haven't seen hard data on it, but it seems that at least some tenure positions are disappearing, and replaced by adjunct and/or associate positions.
 
PSYDR said:
from the Reuters (i assume they check their facts:

"The average UPS driver's annual salary of $55,000 can rise to $70,000 with overtime"


from the APA salary survey 2003 of direct human service providers:

median for a group private practice from 5-9 years of experience = 52k

median for a group privatve practice 30+ years = 88k

median for a community mental health clinic after 15-19yrs = 58k.

median for a clinical psychologist at a VA for 29yrs= 80k (the VA also doesn't have a retirement plan)

so rick55,

based upon actual published data and not anecdotal evidence, my statements seem pretty accurate.
Click to expand...

OK, I'll try this again. First, go back and look at what I wrote. I said it's highly variable and not the norm, but the *potentital* is there. For one, you are completely ignoring positions like high level administrative positions and research positions. Second, you are ignoring standard deviations in income. Third, you are ignoring the *potential* of top clinical psychologists. Here is more informative (and recent) direct human service data:
http://research.apa.org/salaries07/figure5.pdf

Look espeically at the top people, which is the point I was making.

Do you know many UPS drivers that can make $160,000K?
 
Rick55 said:
Look espeically at the top people, which is the point I was making.

Do you know many UPS drivers that can make $160,000K?
Click to expand...

If you look at the top people after 20 years, ya, you can make that kind of money working at UPS. The managers do VERY well. I have a relative that worked for UPS and the $$$ they made off the stock options alone is amazing.

Let's not just focus on UPS though, lets consider other blue collar occupations.

http://blogs.payscale.com/ask_dr_salary/2006/12/high_annual_sal.html

Granted it's not a scholarly site, but it tracks reasonably with what I have seen in the real world. It's like asking how many high school graduates make over $100k per year... answer... not many... but that doesn't matter so much when it's you that is the one making the money.

Mark
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Markp said:
If you look at the top people after 20 years, ya, you can make that kind of money working at UPS. The managers do VERY well. I have a relative that worked for UPS and the $$$ they made off the stock options alone is amazing.

Let's not just focus on UPS though, lets consider other blue collar occupations.

http://blogs.payscale.com/ask_dr_salary/2006/12/high_annual_sal.html

Granted it's not a scholarly site, but it tracks reasonably with what I have seen in the real world. It's like asking how many high school graduates make over $100k per year... answer... not many... but that doesn't matter so much when it's you that is the one making the money.

Mark
Click to expand...

I have a few thoughts. For one, I still say it depends on what you do and where you work. I am on the faculty in a medical school. Once you get to full professor (it takes about 12 years), you are talking $120,000+ easy and I am at one of the lower paying med schools. There is nothing special about that salary at all for a full professor. Everybody gets paid over $100K and many get paid quite a bit more. The last survey I saw had a median of $135K nationally. So it really does depend what you do. If you work in community mental health, then yeah, that's a different story. It all depends. What do you think would be a "fair" salary for a clinical psychologist and why? Only about 10% of people in the country make more than $82,000 and psychologists can get there. Only 6% make more that $100K. Top 10%? That doesn't sound like such a terrible deal to me. Should we make a lot more than top blue collar fields because we have doctoral degrees? Some people have doctoral degrees in far more intellectually demanding fields than clinical psychology like physics, math, and chemistry. I'm sure many of them are not getting rich either. Should they be?
 
Last edited:
Rick55 said:
Some people have doctoral degrees in far more intellectually demanding fields than clinical psychology like physics, math, and chemistry. I'm sure many of them are not getting rich either. Should they be?
Click to expand...

Well it's not about getting rich, but certainly they should be enjoying satisfying careers on all fronts, including the financial front. Should they want to become rich, certainly their education should help, not hinder, that pursuit. I don't want my education to make me worth less.

I am fortunate, I have earned well my whole life, my wife as also earned well and this is without the benefit of higher education. So when we both decided to pursue higher education it was not just for self-actualization but also to provide greater financial stability and to be able to secure additional resources for ourselves. It was and is an investment in our futures and we expect it to perform as such.

Now the choice of career (for each me and my wife) was dictated less by absolute financial concerns and more by personal happiness. She enjoys law, she wants to be a lawyer, and so she is going to law school. Now certainly, she could have gone to UDC. It would have been much less expensive than Georgetown, but is this just education or an investment in her future?

Graduates out of UDC average $55,250 their first year out... Georgetown grads, $165,000 their first year out. She chose Georgetown, not because of the money alone, but because it offered a greater degree of career flexibility and better opportunities as well. I would argue that a degree out of UDC would have had a insignificant impact on her earning potential as well, seeing that she has a Masters from UT Austin in engineering.

That's one example of a huge disparity. We have the same diversity of salary in psychology. We have some people who will be lucky to find $40k per year jobs and others who will be starting their careers at $100k or more post internship. In many ways, it's not the cards that you are dealt but rather how you play the hand that you have.

Some people choose to make less money in exchange for other benefits and perks, scientists are typically people who will sacrifice salary for the opportunity to work with shiny new toys and in cutting edge fields. Psychologists seem to be another group willing to part with salary to have a rewarding career... the problem is when you are parting with salary and not getting the rewarding career as some have alluded to here and elsewhere. I see this as being nearly a crisis in our community where debt loads have soared and salary has remained flat or retreated in some cases.

Mark
 
rick,

i think you just proved my point. how many of those top payers are in private practice? how many are employees?

if you look, the highest paying positions are in group practices.


let me respond further,

you stated:

"Nah, that's not true (unless you are only talking entry level). It's *highly* variable depending on the setting and the individual. I work with several clinical psychology "employees" who make well over $100,000 per year with excellent benefits and one is pushing $200K (with employer paid retirement, vacation, and health insurance). Of course, these people make that much because they have skills that are well above and beyond your average clinical psychologist. Granted, that's not the norm, but to say you get paid like a UPS driver as an employee is not accurate. It depends on the type of setting, the employer, and the individual."

sentence 1: I believe i proved my point that based upon data, there is an apt comparison between UPS drivers and clinical psychologists who are employees who practice in therapy.

sentence 2: i agree there is significant variability. however, there is limited data to support your anecdotal evidence

sentence 3, & 4, : anecdotal. i am not qualified to comment on the veracity of your statements about your personal life.

sentence 5: i believe my comparison is accurate. i await further data to contest my opinion.

sentence 6: the OP implied he/she wanted to be a therapist. comparison to data from apa indicates that my opinion/comparison is accurate, although there are several psychologists who responded to the survey who made 130+.


second response from rick55:

OK, I'll try this again. First, go back and look at what I wrote. I said it's highly variable and not the norm, but the *potentital* is there. For one, you are completely ignoring positions like high level administrative positions and research positions. Second, you are ignoring standard deviations in income. Third, you are ignoring the *potential* of top clinical psychologists. Here is more informative (and recent) direct human service data:
http://research.apa.org/salaries07/figure5.pdf

Look espeically at the top people, which is the point I was making.

Do you know many UPS drivers that can make $160,000K?

sentence 1: fragment

sentence 2: you made no mention of potential in your original post. you cited anecdotal evidence to counter my opinion that UPS workers and clinical psychologist employees (who work as therapists and yes, i realize i left this out) make equitable sums of money. so #2 is false.

sentence 3: you are right, i am ignoring these positions. I kept my opinion centered on the OP's implied career ambition: to work as a therapist. I admit that i forgot to state this, but i assumed it was implied.

sentence 4: damn straight i am ignoring SDs. if a person is asking about the general economics of practice, it is *****ic to state that there is one fella who responded to the APA survey who made 200k in after 10 years. that tells him/her nothing. however saying the average is XYZ does.

sentence 5: no, i am not ignoring the potential. what i opined was that private practice, in general, pays more than being an employee in a direct human service job (e.g., therapist).

sentence 6: i looked.

sentnece 7: i looked again. doesn't change my opinion.

sentence 8: i don't see how my personal relationships have a bearing on professional opinions. if you are comparing the top earner in psychology to the top earner in UPS, i would have to defer as my knowledge of UPS is limited to knowing that their drivers make a surprisingly large salary and that they internally promote.




now i remember why i quit posting on this place.
 
PSYDR - This seems to be a touchy subject for you and I'm not here to argue. I'll say a few more things and that's it. My objection was to the following: "Is psychology lucrative? As an employee, it pays similar to a UPS truck driver. As a private practitioner, it can be very lucrative. Private practice is a lot like the stock market: some people can just kill it, some people lose everything they have trying to make money." You quoted a figure of $55,000 per year for "employees" with some possibility of overtime. I am an "employee" who spends a good chunk of time providing direct clinical services. I made over $90,000 last year and I am 8 years out of grad school. This is common for a medical school (with most making well over $100,000 eventually). If you don't want to believe me, I can't help you there. Look up the salary data. Also, federal salaries are public (google it). I just looked up the salaries online of several psychologists I know at a local VAMC. The range was $80,000 to $105,000 (substantially higher than $55K). The person making $80,000 has been out of school for about 3 years, so that is basically her "entry level" salary (at the start of a 30-year career). I am sorry, PSYDR, but your post very clearly implies that "employees" can't make good money, but people in practice possibly can. That's false. It depends on the setting, the employer, and the person. Take care.
 
Markp said:
I see this as being nearly a crisis in our community where debt loads have soared and salary has remained flat or retreated in some cases.

Mark
Click to expand...

Mark,
That's a good post. I don't view large educational debt loads in psychology relative to income as a crisis at all. As you know, most university-based Ph.D. programs charge $0 tuition and pay you a stipend to attend. If someone chooses to take on massive debt to be a clinical psychologist, I believe that is a personal choice, not a problem with the field. There are many, many programs out there that will pay you a stipend to attend and you don't pay one dime in tuition.
Rick
 
Rick55 said:
Mark,
That's a good post. I don't view large educational debt loads in psychology relative to income as a crisis at all. As you know, most university-based Ph.D. programs charge $0 tuition and pay you a stipend to attend. If someone chooses to take on massive debt to be a clinical psychologist, I believe that is a personal choice, not a problem with the field. There are many, many programs out there that will pay you a stipend to attend and you don't pay one dime in tuition.
Rick
Click to expand...

I totally agree with this statement as many in the field who go to for-profit schools take on an inordinately large amount of debt for a field that is not usually going to reward them from a financial perspective. That isn't a problem with the professional field, it is a problem for the people who attend the programs. No people paying the price...no insanely expensive programs.

I went to a fully funded PhD program and would NOT have gone to a for-profit school, no matter how badly I wanted to be a psychologist. I would have simply gone a different route to find a way to help people. I would have considered medical school, business school, or maybe even opened my business and donated heavily from the profits. Just because you aren't in psychology doesn't mean that you can't help people. My decision was based on my professional desires but also on economics. Besides, the acceptance rate (if I remember correctly) for medical school is around 50%, it is around 10% for a PhD program. I could have easily moved over the medicine and loved it.

This was my thought process. I can work at the VA and start at 65K as a GS12, go to GS13 at 81K the next year, and then stay around the VA for a decade or so. I would leave after a decade as I know it would not be financially feasible for me to stay to eke my way over the next 10 years (20 years total) to 105K as a maxed out GS13. I either head over to the Department of the Army and max out at 130K or I build up testing and therapy contacts while at the VA, then open my own practice.

It is about a long term business plan, not just jumping into something and hoping that it works out. Without a business plan you are going to wind up with 150K in debt working at your 40K a year community mental health job. No thanks.

Take a trip over to the medical forum where they are talking about when going to medical school is no longer feasible when they reach 300K in debt. And these are folks who will be making 2 to 8 times what we will make. They are absolutely right to consider it...there are many ways to help people that may or may not include medicine or psychology.
 
hkusp said:
That isn't a problem with the professional field, it is a problem for the people who attend the programs.
Click to expand...

It becomes a problem for the field pretty quickly. If there's a glut of providers, costs go down for therapy. When costs for practice go down, the "employee" jobs and academia don't have to lure people away from lucrative practices to get them. And if a therapist in in debt, what do you think the temptation is to practice *just a little* outside your scope of competence, or keep someone in sessions *just a few mire times* after they're better? The problems incurred for students in debt definitely do not occur in isolation to the field.
 
Hello. This is a question I posed to myself a number of times throughout my degree. Am I doing the right thing (money wise?). I figured that a degree is a degree and I can choose later.

It has always looked to me a little strange, because in other scientific fields research can be capitalized on to create new drugs, technology or medical devices. With psychology there seems to be massive limits. Being entrepreneurial in any field is a good thing, but some fields lend themselves to this more than others.

Does anyone have any thoughts about Psychology being more closed off to ventures than other science fields?

zsg
 
hkusp said:
Take a trip over to the medical forum where they are talking about when going to medical school is no longer feasible when they reach 300K in debt. And these are folks who will be making 2 to 8 times what we will make. They are absolutely right to consider it...there are many ways to help people that may or may not include medicine or psychology.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I work in a med school and hear these kinds of concerns from students from time to time. I've seen a few residents for therapy over the years who were in heavy debt and had decided that they no longer wanted to be physicians, but felt trapped because of the debt. Ouch.
 
Rick55 said:
Yeah, I work in a med school and hear these kinds of concerns from students from time to time. I've seen a few residents for therapy over the years who were in heavy debt and had decided that they no longer wanted to be physicians, but felt trapped because of the debt. Ouch.
Click to expand...

And I've counseled lawyers and law students with similar concerns. All the money they invested and the potential for the money they could make as attorneys amounted to "golden handcuffs." Nothing is perfect in the world of work. I say pick your poison!:rolleyes:
 
PSYDR said:
-psychology is not a financially stable carreer, depending.

in response to your questions:

1) in my experience, it is INCREDIBLY difficult to set up a private practice. startup costs can exceed 100k. can you tolerate owing this much? can you tolerate potentially earning $0/mo? can you put off getting a house (maxing out your credit)? the market is saturated, unless you have some special SERVICE to offer. (being smart or caring or whatever does not count). i am going to guess that general psychotherapy is not going to cut it in your area.
Click to expand...

How can it cost $100k to start up a psychology practice. Although legally not a good idea, you don't have to form an LLP or PC to start, but if you did that would be max $1500-3,000 depending on your location. Then, there's insurance, which I don't know about, but it can't be that bad. Then renting space and utilities, which depends on where you are going to practice and who you know already. I take it that the $100k is inclusive of foregone income? It seems like it would be a good idea to do something part time as a provider, teaching at a college, something just to work on paying the rent while you are setting up the practice. Before you even start you could get a website (couple hundred bucks, maybe more) and work on coaching and things like that, maybe book some speaking engagements at various places that could be potential client sources. Market saturation is really not a major roadblock if you have a niche and can network your tail off. A niche doesn't have to be one from school or very specific training (e.g., neuropsych), but could be based on your personal experiences - e.g., if you have a loved one with MS, you may have special knowledge there....network your tail off with an MS treatment center and offer free seminars on coping with chronic illness. I don't know. I still don't see how it can actually "cost" $100k to start a psychology practice. That makes no sense. If you are counting foregone income and loan payments, maybe I get that. I also think that psychology is no different than any other business - from fast food franchises to lawyers offices - there is a build up period and it requires a ton of networking and effort. But anytime you work for yourself there is sacrifice involved. (Also, I am assuming that this advice is applying to someone who did not attend an unfunded program.)
 
You may want to consider relocating to a place that severely limits masters' level clinicians like NC. I don't know the exact rules, but a master's level clinician has to practice for several years in NC with "supervision" by a PhD psychologist and you have to pay the PhD the same thing that you charge if you are a private clinician. In terms of quality of work, I think that assessments are the main area that MLCs have to stay away from, but the supervision thing sets them back a while and is a source of referrals for psychologists.
 
coloradocutter said:
You may want to consider relocating to a place that severely limits masters' level clinicians like NC. I don't know the exact rules, but a master's level clinician has to practice for several years in NC with "supervision" by a PhD psychologist and you have to pay the PhD the same thing that you charge if you are a private clinician. In terms of quality of work, I think that assessments are the main area that MLCs have to stay away from, but the supervision thing sets them back a while and is a source of referrals for psychologists.
Click to expand...

Master's level clinicians in NC require an hour of supervision by a Ph.D. level or licensure-exempt clinician a week for the first 2 years, then 2 hours a month for 3 years, then 1 hour a month permanently. You don't always have to pay for this though, depending on whether you're doing community work or working for a state agency.
 
The expenses really kick in when you are doing it on your own and have to front the money for space, utilities, start-up costs (furniture, etc), and you run months in the red until you can fill enough spots to break even. Most people start out with sub-letting someone else's office space.

The best approaches I've seen have taken 1-2 years, and usually are the result of working a lot of nights and weekends to build up enough clientel to warrant dedicated space, instead of just renting an office out of a group practice.
 
Markp said:
I would double that budget.

1. Without a support person to handle billing and office chores, you are going to end up wasting much of your time (which is more valuable) doing labor a $10-$15/hr employee should do.

2. If you locate your office in a ghetto, then $2k of furnishings and supplies will make clients feel right at home.

3. $25k for rent and utilities, sure, that sounds reasonable for most places outside of major metropolitan areas.

Mark
Click to expand...

#1 Agree, and you also wouldn't be available to make appointments while in session. Look into the possibility of a virtual assistant, especially if you don't have a front office.

#2 No need to be a jerk about it. Also, depends on your sources for furnishings etc. You'll need at least $3k, bare minimum, unless you don't have a waiting room or front office. Just think about how much a nice microfiber couch costs new (don't forget you really can't/shouldn't buy most of these office furnishings used).

#3 Again, depends on region, amenities, size and your source for renting. If you're in NYC it won't cut it at all, but if you're in most mid-to-large cities $25k is a reasonable budget. Just don't forget about all utilities: phone, electric, heat, water (bathroom), internet, merry maids, panic button AND incidentals like water cooler, cups, tissues, tp, cleaners, etc that you have to replace on a regular basis.


Honestly, the pay doesn't scare me at all. I can see myself happily being an employee while developing an off-site client base during evenings and weekends, and I can see myself happily having a mid-size private practice. I'm not in this for the money, so I'm pretty happy with the risk/reward scenario.

I too would like to see this $100k startup plan. Give me a few hours and let me trim the fat from it :D Seriously though, go to SCORE or the SBA and get their input before laying out a bunch of money that you don't need to spend.
 
Some say money is to be made in psychological assessments. I did my externship with a big-time forensic psychologist in my area. He commanded somewhere from $1,500 up to $5,000 (that's assessment + testifying in court). Multiply that by about a 100 clients plus his therapy clients.

I have also heard that doctoral level psychologists may have a harder time getting jobs in certain cases compared to master's level (like clinical social workers) due to the high salary base that a doctoral level professional commands. Doctoral level psychologists are increasingly in administrative/supervisory positions. As others have mentioned, I think there are so many factors to take into account to become a profitable/successful psychologist. And, like other professions, it's about taking time to develop and to succeed.
 
Grif said:
#2 No need to be a jerk about it.

I too would like to see this $100k startup plan. Give me a few hours and let me trim the fat from it :D Seriously though, go to SCORE or the SBA and get their input before laying out a bunch of money that you don't need to spend.
Click to expand...

#2, I wasn't trying to be a jerk about it, but let me add something here.

You're talking to a guy who started an Internet Company in 1994 with $5,000 and managed to make it work. I was in business for nearly 7 years and sold my business to Earthlink in late 2000 and walked away a happy camper. I could have been much more successful if I had been properly capitalized, but none the less, I was very successful. You can ALWAYS trim fat from the budget... to the point where you can start a high tech company on a shoe string. I DON'T RECOMMEND IT. It's far more work than beginning from a strong foundation with full capitalization that gives you the flexibility to survive lean times and bad decisions. On the other hand, there is an advantage to a lean, eat what you kill model. It forces you to make tough decisions early and quickly.

Mark
 
Grif said:
I'm not in this for the money, so I'm pretty happy with the risk/reward scenario.
Click to expand...

While this may be true to some extent, when people say this, i tend to think there's an element of bs to it. I for one have never muttered this statement, and its shocking to me how many students who want to be practitioners (which is a business after all) make this statement. So in my mind, yes, it about money. Its about picking a career I like, but im certainly here for money too. If not, I would probably be content to live on a remote beach selling umbrellas and surfing with my wife.

I also hear this statement from research-oriented faculty quite a bit (not my advisor thank goodness) and it kinda rubs me the wrong way to be honest. 2 reasons: 1) Its a dismissive statement. It makes me think they are out of touch with (or dont care about) the economic realities of grad school and the busines aspect of the profession. In other words, it makes me think they dont care one bit about my livlihood post-dissertation. Like i said, its dismissive. 2) The "its not about money" attitude is obne of the reasons why psychologist's pay lag behind other doctoral level providers and why we are so prone to cuts in reimbursement (ie., the recent medicare cuts). We dont fight for it! These atitudes seem to take into acount only science and passion forf the work, and totally ignores the equally important aspects of market value and value of services.

I think ive told this story before, but all of these attudes were personified best when an intern was talking to a research supervisor at my site a few weeks ago. The supervior said, "well, if you dont get into a paid neuropsych post doc, dont worry too much cause there are lots of unpaid positions that you could get." We were both agast. Not agast that this existed mind you, but that she said it like this was pefectly acceptable and should be the cause for no undue concern. Noone should tolerate something like that. I'll grudingly play ball and work for peanuts while in grad school, but for free after my ph.d, absolutely not!!! I'd rather go sell umbrellas!
 
Last edited:
When I was pursuing my MA in psychology and unsure what to do for my doctorate I was also constantly told to never worry about the money or how employable I would and just to do what I loved. My thoughts were always that what I'd really love is to not be unemployed after being in school for years and paying untold bills.

Ultimately though I really don't care so much about making a ton of money but what I do care about is being in a profession where my contribution is valued and I'm not too easy to replace....and when competition drives salary down dramatically that's often not the case.

erg923 said:
While this may be true to some extent, when people say this, i tend to think there's an element of bs to it. I for one have never muttered this statement, and its shocking to me how many students who want to be practitioners (which is a business after all) make this statement. So in my mind, yes, it about money. Its about picking a career I like, but im certainly here for money too. If not, I would probably be content to live on a remote beach selling umbrellas and surfing with my wife.

I also hear this statement from research-oriented faculty quite a bit (not my advisor thank goodness) and it kinda rubs me the wrong way to be honest. 2 reasons: 1) Its a dismissive statement. It makes me think they are out of touch with (or dont care about) the economic realities of grad school and the busines aspect of the profession. In other words, it makes me think they dont care one bit about my livlihood post-dissertation. Like i said, its dismissive. 2) The "its not about money" attitude is obne of the reasons why psychologist's pay lag behind other doctoral level providers and why we are so prone to cuts in reimbursement (ie., the recent medicare cuts). We dont fight for it! These atitudes seem to take into acount only science and passion forf the work, and totally ignores the equally important aspects of market value and value of services.

I think ive told this story before, but all of these attudes were personified best when an intern was talking to a research supervisor at my site a few weeks ago. The supervior said, "well, if you dont get into a paid neuropsych post doc, dont worry too much cause there are lots of unpaid positions that you could get." We were both agast. Not agast that this existed mind you, but that she said it like this was pefectly acceptable and should be the cause for no undue concern. Noone should tolerate something like that. I'll grudingly play ball and work for peanuts for a while, but for free, absolutely not!!! Id rather go sell umbrellas!
Click to expand...
 
erg923 said:
I think ive told this story before, but all of these attudes were personified best when an intern was talking to a research supervisor at my site a few weeks ago. The supervior said, "well, if you dont get into a paid neuropsych post doc, dont worry too much cause there are lots of unpaid positions that you could get." We were both agast. Not agast that this existed mind you, but that she said it like this was pefectly acceptable and should be the cause for no undue concern. Noone should tolerate something like that. I'll grudingly play ball and work for peanuts for a while, but for free, absolutely not!!! Id rather go sell umbrellas!
Click to expand...


maybe she was referring to unpaid positions that will help the intern get other future post doc opportunities?

its a difficult field, and money is necessary for us to survive but i don't think money should be the main reason your are part of the field. There are so many other fields with better pay that require less experience, less education, give us less dept etc.
 
cheeze said:
maybe she was referring to unpaid positions that will help the intern get other future post doc opportunities?
Click to expand...

And this would be more acceptable because.........:rolleyes:

Your post-doc...you should not be working for free at this point!!!
 
erg923 said:
While this may be true to some extent, when people say this, i tend to think there's an element of bs to it. I for one have never muttered this statement, and its shocking to me how many students who want to be practitioners (which is a business after all) make this statement. So in my mind, yes, it about money. Its about picking a career I like, but im certainly here for money too. If not, I would probably be content to live on a remote beach selling umbrellas and surfing with my wife.

I also hear this statement from research-oriented faculty quite a bit (not my advisor thank goodness) and it kinda rubs me the wrong way to be honest. 2 reasons: 1) Its a dismissive statement. It makes me think they are out of touch with (or dont care about) the economic realities of grad school and the busines aspect of the profession. In other words, it makes me think they dont care one bit about my livlihood post-dissertation. Like i said, its dismissive. 2) The "its not about money" attitude is obne of the reasons why psychologist's pay lag behind other doctoral level providers and why we are so prone to cuts in reimbursement (ie., the recent medicare cuts). We dont fight for it! These atitudes seem to take into acount only science and passion forf the work, and totally ignores the equally important aspects of market value and value of services.

I think ive told this story before, but all of these attudes were personified best when an intern was talking to a research supervisor at my site a few weeks ago. The supervior said, "well, if you dont get into a paid neuropsych post doc, dont worry too much cause there are lots of unpaid positions that you could get." We were both agast. Not agast that this existed mind you, but that she said it like this was pefectly acceptable and should be the cause for no undue concern. Noone should tolerate something like that. I'll grudingly play ball and work for peanuts while in grad school, but for free after my ph.d, absolutely not!!! I'd rather go sell umbrellas!
Click to expand...

+1

The fact that I would do this work in my spare time for fun will not stop me from brutally negotiating an awesome startup package wherever I get hired after grad school.
 
erg923 said:
While this may be true to some extent, when people say this, i tend to think there's an element of bs to it. I for one have never muttered this statement, and its shocking to me how many students who want to be practitioners (which is a business after all) make this statement.
Click to expand...

Just so we're clear, am I actually being criticized for being motivated by something other than money? I currently run a business, and frequently act as a consultant to other businesses. I'm not rich now, but I grew up dirt poor (seriously, skid row poor). So I understand the need to have money -- I'm at least aware of the concept.

But if money is the only thing bringing you to psychology, then don't bother. Seriously. You'll be miserable and won't be an effective clinician, assuming you don't wash out as an undergrad. Having met several people who washed out as psyc undergrads, I'd say it's for the best. :smuggrin:

@JockNerd Of course, the love of the field shouldn't keep you from a nice sign-on bonus. :thumbup:
 
Grif said:
Just so we're clear, am I actually being criticized for being motivated by something other than money?
Click to expand...

I said nothing of the sort, but i did articulate several reasons why i think the lack of focus on financial issues hurts the profession in general.
 
Markp said:
#2, I wasn't trying to be a jerk about it, but let me add something here.

You can ALWAYS trim fat from the budget... to the point where you can start a high tech company on a shoe string. I DON'T RECOMMEND IT.
Click to expand...

Sorry, you just seemed rather terse about it.

And there's a difference between reasonable expenses and going crazy with a startup. Unless you have money to burn, I don't recommend it. :D The shallower the hole, the easier it is to climb out, right?
 
JockNerd said:
+1

The fact that I would do this work in my spare time for fun will not stop me from brutally negotiating an awesome startup package wherever I get hired after grad school.
Click to expand...

Grif said:
Just so we're clear, am I actually being criticized for being motivated by something other than money? I currently run a business, and frequently act as a consultant to other businesses. I'm not rich now, but I grew up dirt poor (seriously, skid row poor). So I understand the need to have money -- I'm at least aware of the concept.

But if money is the only thing bringing you to psychology, then don't bother. Seriously. You'll be miserable and won't be an effective clinician, assuming you don't wash out as an undergrad. Having met several people who washed out as psyc undergrads, I'd say it's for the best. :smuggrin:

@JockNerd Of course, the love of the field shouldn't keep you from a nice sign-on bonus. :thumbup:
Click to expand...


You guys are high if you think that you'll get a "sign on" bonus in this economy and in this field. Good luck with that! :laugh:

Mark
 
Markp said:
You guys are high if you think that you'll get a "sign on" bonus in this economy and in this field. Good luck with that! :laugh:

Mark
Click to expand...

Well JN references a start-up package, which isn't the same as a signing bonus. Its standard practice for academic psychologists and they generally range from a few thousand dollars on up into several hundred thousand. I'm sure for senior faculty they can hit the millions - something I imagine holds especially true for the animal lab folks who need to buy way more "stuff" than even my equipment-heavy research line needs. Its not typically "salary" though some people negotiate to get salary support for the summer their first year, but more commonly money to be spent on the lab. For example, funding to hire a full-time RA or a post-doc, equipment, etc.

If you demonstrate potential for significant extramural funding its not an unreasonable expectation at all, and also not a bad investment for the school since that money will likely get kicked back in indirect costs with just 1-2 grants. It seems like most folks in my area need about 50-100k just for equipment. I fully expect to get a decent chunk if not all of that paid for in a start-up package. Its going to be necessary if they want me to pull in any substantive amount of grant money, and I have little desire for my research to consist of passing out stacks of paper for psych 101 students to fill out.
 
Last edited:
Ollie123 said:
Well JN references a start-up package, which isn't the same as a signing bonus. Its standard practice for academic psychologists and they generally range from a few thousand dollars on up into several hundred thousand. I'm sure for senior faculty they can hit the millions - something I imagine holds especially true for the animal lab folks who need to buy way more "stuff" than even my equipment-heavy research line needs. Its not typically "salary" though some people negotiate to get salary support for the summer their first year, but more commonly money to be spent on the lab. For example, funding to hire a full-time RA or a post-doc, equipment, etc.

If you demonstrate potential for significant extramural funding its not an unreasonable expectation at all, and also not a bad investment for the school since that money will likely get kicked back in indirect costs with just 1-2 grants. It seems like most folks in my area need about 50-100k just for equipment. I fully expect to get a decent chunk if not all of that paid for in a start-up package. Its going to be necessary if they want me to pull in any substantive amount of grant money, and I have little desire for my research to consist of passing out stacks of paper for psych 101 students to fill out.
Click to expand...

Oh, ya... as far as that goes, yes, in the academic world I have seen labs setup with funds from the college in addition to the funding from junior faculty grants. That's totally reasonable. UTSA has been aggressive in the past few years and I know one young psychology professor who got an excellent start up package after finishing her post-doc and getting funding from NIH.

Mark
 
Ollie123 said:
Well JN references a start-up package, which isn't the same as a signing bonus...
Click to expand...

Yes, this is what I was saying. Even though my research doesn't cost a lot of money to do, paying out of pocket for my lab set-up (computer, software, lab furniture and other incidentals) would be ridiculous.
 
I sometimes miss the crazy perks of the DotCom era. My friend's firm had a full-time massage therapist and game room, but they went bankrupt when the VC funds dried up. Whoops. I negotiated a 1 hour meditation every day after lunch, and no one was allowed to bother me during that hour. I'd often pulled a George Costanza and take a nap after a mini-meditation. Best. Perk. Ever. It also helped usher in the "slippers are the same as dress shoes" movement.

I wonder if I could do that for my fellowship negotiations.....:D

More seriously though....negotiate first on hard cost items (salary, bonus, etc), then on soft-cost items (services, "perks", spending account), and then compensation time (annual leave, sick leave, professional leave, sabatical requirements). Doing it in that order should maxamize your package. Some organizations will have less flexibility, but you can often get more "soft" things on the side. Of course, if it is your first real job out and you don't have a track record....tread lightly.
 
Last edited:
Markp said:
You guys are high if you think that you'll get a "sign on" bonus in this economy and in this field. Good luck with that! :laugh:

Mark
Click to expand...

Depending on where you are going, some agencies will give you a pretty good sign-on bonus. Not standard, but you can find good perks and some bonuses if you look hard enough.

Thinking of working for a government agency that treats underserved populations? I mean waaay underserved, and often for geographic/cost reasons. Is it a program that the government wants to keep afloat at all costs? Are they having a ridiculous time finding people to fill positions?

Look deeply and thoroughly, and you can find anything from scholarships to loan repayment to sign-on bonuses to excellent perks and benefits.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Next unread thread

Similar threads

DynamicDidactic
American Psychologist article about (not needing) exposure
Replies
22
Views
529
DynamicDidactic
DynamicDidactic
PsyDr
Psychiatrist vs. psychologist salary in each state
2
Replies
63
Views
3K
Freud’sMommy
F
A
Pros and Cons of being a psychologist in California vs. Washington state?
Replies
28
Views
2K
TrueButUseless
T
memiller
Psychologist salary potential private practice in Pennsylvania
Replies
5
Views
1K
Harry3990
H
oldschooliscool
VA Graduate Psychologist - what's it like?
Replies
28
Views
2K
PsyDuck90
P
Top