Pre-Med Couple in Distress

This whole switch is because of workload?

OF09 said:

Help!
I am a pre-med student, and so is my fiancé. We have both been very dedicated to pre-med. Only recently have we gained access into medicine beyond shadowing that has called our decision to being pre-med into question. We are torn.

He has a 40 on the MCAT, a 4.0, 150+ hours of volunteering, 5-10 specialties shadowed, research and a research publication, trying life experiences, and really strong leadership experiences.
My application will be somewhat similar in strength.

We are very dedicated to a family life. He is very efficient/a perfectionist, competitive, and loves business – so the only specialties that he is really interested in are plastic surgery, dermatology, ENT—those where every stitch really matters and you can own your own practice without much government interference. He cares about those around him, but he isn’t trying to be a martyr.
As his future wife, I want to work part time and possibly do non-profit/volunteer work. I definitely want for him to be home as well.

Questions:
How much do oral-max surgeons make? Do they own their own practice usually?
How many oral-max spots are there in the nation? How competitive is it (i.e. plastic surgery is very competitive, there are less than 100 spots nationwide with tons of applicants and it will only get worse as the government interferes)? ~How high in your class do you have to be to get in?
What does the future of dentistry look like, particularly in terms of the government, because that’s one of the main unknowns that we are afraid of (i.e. the 5% tax on elective surgeries that could have passed)?
How will interview committees view our clearly pre-med resumes?
What are the top dental schools and how competitive are they?
He has developed hand eye skills via research, I currently don’t have it documented, how big of a handicap would this be?

We are shadowing dentists, orthodontists, and an oral-max surgeon over the next two weeks, but background knowledge, tips, advice, etc. are greatly appreciated.

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I think family is the most important for you and i think for people who truly excel (like you and your fiance) a path in medicine will give you same/ maybe even better life style than dentistry.

I think Orthodontics makes more than OMFS, but it sounds like your fiance will get bored at it.

My father plays sports with a several doctors/surgeon and dentists, needless to say they all have great lives. He's tried to pursuade me to go in to med because among his friends, the doctors seem to live in nicer homes and drive nicer cars. One of them is a heart surgeon, he works very little most of the time, because he's planning surgeries and preparing patients. There maybe once a week that he actually performs surgery, but when that happens, it's about 2hr+ procedure. Another one is a radiologist, a doctor who reads X-rays. This doctor chooses to have a relatively low income because he really wants to enjoy his life. I spoke to him and he pretty much goes to work 1-2days a week. During his time off, he swims (has a small house in the suburb but built an indoor pool), he reads and takes his kids to karate. Life as he describes it is easy going.

The dentists live well, but they seem to be slightly busier than the specialists, work 4-5 days per week.

It all depends on you, if you want to have a time for your family, you can do it with both professions. It all comes down to whether you will enjoy your work

How much do oral-max surgeons make? Do they own their own practice usually?
see the Bureau of Labor statistics data (which is not necessarily representative, but authoritative nonetheless:
http://www.bls.gov/oes/2008/may/oes291022.htm


How competitive is it?/How high in your class do you have to be to get in?
Count on being in the top 5% of your class to match in an omfs spot.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=499293&highlight=OMFS+Competitive

What does the future of dentistry look like, particularly in terms of the government, because that's one of the main unknowns that we are afraid of (i.e. the 5% tax on elective surgeries that could have passed)?
HCR will have big implications if it is passed, and will likely include mid-level practioners (ADHP's, DHAT's, dental therapists)

How will interview committees view our clearly pre-med resumes?
i'd worry more about what dental school are going to think. it's going to show through your experiences. should you get an interview, they may ask, "what is your motivation for going into dentistry" and you will not be able to honestly answer with "it has been my goal for a long time" or "i have been interested since i was <insert arbitrary age>".


What are the top dental schools and how competitive are they?
despite the silliness you will undoubtedly read on these forums, dental schools are not ranked. All US dental schools are accredited by the ADA, and it is indeed true that you can specialize coming from any school. sure, some schools have different philosophies and techinques in their pedagogy (e.g. Classes with med students/dentistry as a branch of medicine/Pass-Fail cirriculums/Ivy vs Non-Ivy) but they are fundamentally the same. Cost and choice of city should be your #1 concern.


He has developed hand eye skills via research, I currently don't have it documented, how big of a handicap would this be?
I'm going to speculate that your fiance has maybe plated cells and stained plates for his research, and that doesn't necesarily indicate "skills" (assuming that is the extent of his work). do either of you play instruments? crafts? that's money right there.


here comes the cliche (and i won't be the last to say this): find out what you ENJOY, not which route has the best hours and pay

EDIT: Btw, i am married, my wife is applying for law school as i am applying for dental school, so i do understand your situation to an extent. just so you don't think i came off as a complete jerk

OF09 said:

For the past 4 years I dedicated my life into becoming the perfect applicant. And I have...

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Does this include lessons in humility? We get it. Your numbers are sick. You work hard. Join the ranks.

OF09 said:

Have you guys ever worked so hard to get something that the last thing you need to do is to hold out your hand and get it. But...now you dont really want it so much anymore?

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Yes.

I am the other half of the equation. And I can answer this question for you. I do microscopic dissection, where I extract the brain out (intact of course) of fruit fly larva. Also another hobbie I have is building models, air plane and battlecruiser.
Wow, that's actually pretty neat. i would DEFINITELY call that hand-eye coordination

I really want to do something where every little bit matters and best work shows such as in the field of ENT, Plastic and Dermatology.
you don't think every little bit matters in cardiology, OBGYN, gen surg, etc?

I am really scared about the medical field now. Physician complain about the decreasing salary all the time. Right now everything is barely fine, but it could get much worse in the future. The worst thing is i hate having other people controlling the rate. Congress propose a 40% cut in reimbursement for cardiologist...40% by 2015!!! Medical school is a lonnng journey and such uncertainty is just so suffocating.
you'd be wrong to assume that dentistry will be impervious to this. though i am 100% supportive of some form of healthcare reform, it is possible that some states may mandate dentists (at least 30%) accept Medicaid/Medicare patients. in addition, see the Senate Healthcare bill "Sec. 434. Alternative dental health care providers demonstration project." This IS in fact a midlevel program (And you know what? ADA studies have revealed them to be just as effective!!)
(also, please cite the source of this 40% budget cut. i've never heard about such drastic measures but if it's true i'd like to read about it).

I really really want to have my own business, and run it effectively (I was considering a MD/MBA). And private practice in medicine is being actively starved out.
not to get into a healthcare debate, but private practice is getting "starved out" by an inefficient system with ridiculous overhead and expenses.


It was never about difficulty. I have always faced challenge head on. But that is all because there is some eventual ending that I am looking forward to (medical school and then becoming a doctor). Now it does not look that appealing.
so then why not law school? that's challenging. and your compensation is virtaully unlimited and not subject to government regulation.

The only thing holding me back is the enormous momentum. For the past 4 years I dedicated my life into becoming the perfect applicant. And I have...the only thing left is applying. Hell, I even have my personal statement written and revised by like 20 people already!I am the last person anyone in my school would expect to have a change of heart.
allow me to be frank: i think this change your heart you are having is coming from the wrong motivations --> reimbursement rates. you sound like you have the drive to become an excellent physician/surgeon/whatever. it would be a shame if you dissapate the momentum you've built just because you're worried about possible changes in a paycheck.

Have you guys ever worked so hard to get something that the last thing you need to do is to hold out your hand and get it. But...now you dont really want it so much anymore?
ask yourself why you wanted it in the first place.

Dentistry is a specific field of medicine and for that reason dental schools prefer applicants to research the field before applying. One of the best ways to learn about dental school admission is to find current dental students and speak to them. One of the things I learned from them is that often times at some state schools, applicants with lower numbers but with more dental experience will be accepted than applicants with higher numbers and less experience, part of their "perfect" formula and proving that numbers are not everything. However this is certainly not the case for schools such as Harvard, Columbia, UPenn, UoP and few others. There are numerous applicants who make the switch and get accepted at great schools. In your personal statement letter and application, you have to prove why dentistry, why the switch, and show dedication to the field through dental volunteering and shadowing.

Dental schools are not ranked however here is the 08 Ranking of Dental Schools Based on DAT/GPA:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=602109

List of dental schools:
http://www.ada.org/prof/ed/programs/search_ddsdmd_us.asp

To the OP,

Dentistry is an excellent profession if you like to work with your hands and like to pay extra attention to detail. Because you work is in the oral cavity, every little detail counts. The autonomy of owing ones own practice is great and you won't be starving in dentistry, especially as a specialist.

I have come over to the dark side as well and I am very happy with my decision. If you got a 40+ on the MCAT, the DAT will be easy, but it does have a unique session in testing your percept ability. There are no "top schools" published as in medical schools, because no one (in general) selects a dentist by which school they went to. Having said that, Harvard is a difficult school to get into, UoP is unique because you finish in three years. You don't have to PROVE anything to anybody. Just be honest without having nothing to say but, "I want to live rich without working much".

Explore dentistry more and talk to many dentists. If it is right for you, then go for it. Spank the DAT as you have done to the MCAT and you will have a good chance getting in somewhere.

Personally, I chose dentistry over medicine because I knew that plastic surgery and orthopedics would be difficult specialities to get once in medical school. But in dentistry, I would be guaranteed to work with my hands. During interviews, I told them I was a premed for a long time, but after exploring dentistry, I find it a better fit- giving some relevant examples that pertain to my life. And that was all that was needed. Hope this helps! Good luck.

A 40 on the MCAT... WOW! It looks like you guys have done your research well and seen the differences in the paths and lifestyles between med and dental.

I thought I'd say to other people that are questioning you and your husbands motive, that when if family is your main goal, what your career is, specifically, is less important. If your career allows you to bring out your best, be well off financially, and still have time for family, then that is the right career. Again, this is only if your family top priority.

Here's an excellent salary thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=664024

wantVCUdental said:

I think Orthodontics makes more than OMFS, but it sounds like your fiance will get bored at it.

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Statistically speaking, ortho makes less on average (annually, not necessarily hourly) than OMFS, endo, and pedo. Check the link I posted above for some ADA statistics.

every predent wants to become and oral and maxillofacial surgeon. Only about 4-5% actually will.

well, if you indeed find that dentistry is what you would enjoy doing, you'll just need to demonstrate a committment to the field. Start/continue shadowing, volunteer at your local dental school (if you live near one), attend Summer Dental Simulation courses (see this link, it's old and from another school, but it tells you what a sim course is all about http://organizations.weber.edu/predent/flyer.pdf).

thanks for that HCR info by the way, very interesting....

OF09 said:

Yea, forgot to mention that I am an immigrant. So I got this accent, which make it pretty hard to be a top lawyer.

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dude, my wife and her family are all Iranians who immigrated from Iran, and a good number of them are successful attorneys for big name companies despite their Iranian accents (no matter how thick or thin it is)

You and your fiancee sound like incredibly bright and motivated individuals. After a 40 on the MCAT, the DAT will be an absolute breeze. (I took both). If you spent two months studying for the MCAT, based on your background, I'd imagine an extra week review on the basic sciences should cover your bases for the DAT. The PAT portion of the test, unless you're a total natural, does take a good amount of practice, however.

It also may be a bit premature, but I'd also venture to say, medical school will be quite easy for you as well. As long as you stay focused, and motivated, do well on your boards, and graduate near the top of your class at an accredited medical school, you'll get into your specialty of choice no problem. You may not get your very first pick, but finding a position won't be an issue.

Now, down to the issue of medical specialty. I have to reiterate...you have to do what makes you happy. I know how attractive the highest paying specialties can be to a good student, and often those individuals develop a type of tunnel vision when it comes to choosing one. And they all become pretty attractive, trust me. Once you get it in your head, it becomes VERY easy to justify to yourself, why a certain specialty appeals to you. Let me possibly save you some time and let you in on a secret. There's nothing really artistic about plastic surgery. Half the plastic surgeons I know can't draw a proper circle for you if their life depended on it. 90% of plastics isn't as "delicate" as you imagine. Have you scrubbed in on a nose job? That's violent stuff. You want artistry? Go into fashion design, ceramics, sculpting, photography, architecture...etc. To be honest, it doesn't take much to be a good plastic surgeon...just some patience, basic surgical skills, an a discerning eye. As far as being intellectually stimulating...it's probably one of the least. I'd advise you and your fiance to be incredibly honest about what it is you want. When you say you're focused on family, are you really saying...I want to be as rich as possible doing the least work as possible? If so, would you be happy doing breast implant after breast implant after tummy tuck with a break to do liposuction? Cuz that's what becomes your bread and butter.

Just remember, the high prestige specialties weren't always such. Orthopedics back in the day was one of the last things anyone signed up for. Positions went unfilled left and right. So sit down, identify your priorities, and try to keep an open mind. Remember, plenty of teachers, cops, blue-collar workers, engineers, artists have good family lives...because they make it a priority. Money isn't the only way...and your kids will certainly appreciate and will be inspired by the fact that mom and dad are passionate about their work.

Oh yeah, talking about detail work...have you ever watched a cardiothoracic surgeon do a bypass? The sutures are nearly invisible, they're so thin...and the vessels are tiny...now that's detail

Like it or not, government involvement at the local, state and federal level is an indispensable fact of life. Discounting a field because of the perceived "interference" by the government is on par with abandoning the quest of becoming a surgeon because one cannot stand the sight of blood.

Tachyon said:

0F09,

Why would you compromise a life-long goal when you are so close to it? The surgeons I work with are still happy despite all the public anxiety over the possible legislative changes to come. Instead of abandoning your calling, why not find a way to represent medicine and protect its interests? I think you both will continue to second guess yourselves until you realize you both compromised your dreams over anxiety and hearsay. Medicine will be safe.

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p.s. Amherst is awesome

Hey guys, this is the guy in the relationship. I made a new account to protect my identity. Anyways, I am still very interested in dentistry and I have some questions that maybe you guys can help me answer.
1. I am planning on taking the DAT in a little over a month (right after spring break). I plan to buy topscore/destoryer for practice. I may also get kaplan stuff since I teach MCAT for them. I still have all my undergraduate book and all the MCAT books (every book in the market!). You think that would be adquet? (I took MCAT last summer and I cant believe that I have to study Ochem again… thought I was done with it)
2. For shadowing how did you guys obtain that? I have zero connection (I guess another reason why I never looked into dentistry in the first place). I think I am going to mail abunch of snail mails…what do you think?
3. How do dental school precieve premed who switched (not because cant get in med school)?
4. OK, so here is a important question, how much does dentist make? I know the range for pretty much all the medical specialities but I have no clue at all about dentistry. I can not trust those survry because they are usually for people who are “employed” which is obviously not representative. For general practice dentist, are we talking about 10k or 20k (if you own your own practice and assuming it is efficient and you work about 50 hours a week)? There is huge disparaity between the numbers I am seeing here. How much does a successful private practice pull in?
5. Also, the more I read about dential business the more I am intrigued. For medical groups, hiring an associate does not generate much more money,rather only reduced the amount of call each doctor has to take. However, for dentistry it seems like hiring other dentist into your practice is going to dramatically increase your profitbility. Can someone enlighten me on that?
6. What about for OMFS or Orthodontist ? Assuming that you work 54 hours a week (average for a Otolarynologist)?
7. Speaking of ENT…can someone give me an objective comparasion between the two? ENT: 4 year medical school, 1 years of prelim (maybe have this one wrong), 5 years speciality training, earning 300k-400k (Low end of surgical speciality), working average 54 hours a week (life styleof surgical speciality). OMFS, 4 Year of dental, 4 years of OMFS, 2 optional years for MD earning????, average ?? hours a week? I know that during residency OMFS+ENT share a lot of the casses so I am just going to say they are probably just about equally interesting. However, from what I been gathering so far
a. OMFS can just leave the crappier ER cases to ENT
b. OMFS can do their own anesthesia
c. OMFS pretty much always get paid what they billed for
d. ENT is actually more profitable without doing much surgery.
To me it seems like despite how sweet ENT is as a medical speciality, OMFS is much sweeter?
Sorry for all the questions, but this is an incredibly huge decision in our life and we are just trying to learn everything we can with the little time we have left! L
Also sorry for any grammar/spelling error in the post, I poured over the Dent fourm the entire night (why did they remove the search function??)

I answered the salary questions as best they can be answered via the link above. Excellent discussion from some folks who may know what they're talking about.

MaybeDent said:

Hey guys, this is the guy in the relationship. I made a new account to protect my identity. Anyways, I am still very interested in dentistry and I have some questions that maybe you guys can help me answer.
1. I am planning on taking the DAT in a little over a month (right after spring break). I plan to buy topscore/destoryer for practice. I may also get kaplan stuff since I teach MCAT for them. I still have all my undergraduate book and all the MCAT books (every book in the market!). You think that would be adquet? (I took MCAT last summer and I cant believe that I have to study Ochem again… thought I was done with it)
2. For shadowing how did you guys obtain that? I have zero connection (I guess another reason why I never looked into dentistry in the first place). I think I am going to mail abunch of snail mails…what do you think?
3. How do dental school precieve premed who switched (not because cant get in med school)?
4. OK, so here is a important question, how much does dentist make? I know the range for pretty much all the medical specialities but I have no clue at all about dentistry. I can not trust those survry because they are usually for people who are “employed” which is obviously not representative. For general practice dentist, are we talking about 10k or 20k (if you own your own practice and assuming it is efficient and you work about 50 hours a week)? There is huge disparaity between the numbers I am seeing here. How much does a successful private practice pull in?
5. Also, the more I read about dential business the more I am intrigued. For medical groups, hiring an associate does not generate much more money,rather only reduced the amount of call each doctor has to take. However, for dentistry it seems like hiring other dentist into your practice is going to dramatically increase your profitbility. Can someone enlighten me on that?
6. What about for OMFS or Orthodontist ? Assuming that you work 54 hours a week (average for a Otolarynologist)?
7. Speaking of ENT…can someone give me an objective comparasion between the two? ENT: 4 year medical school, 1 years of prelim (maybe have this one wrong), 5 years speciality training, earning 300k-400k (Low end of surgical speciality), working average 54 hours a week (life styleof surgical speciality). OMFS, 4 Year of dental, 4 years of OMFS, 2 optional years for MD earning????, average ?? hours a week? I know that during residency OMFS+ENT share a lot of the casses so I am just going to say they are probably just about equally interesting. However, from what I been gathering so far
a. OMFS can just leave the crappier ER cases to ENT
b. OMFS can do their own anesthesia
c. OMFS pretty much always get paid what they billed for
d. ENT is actually more profitable without doing much surgery.
To me it seems like despite how sweet ENT is as a medical speciality, OMFS is much sweeter?
Sorry for all the questions, but this is an incredibly huge decision in our life and we are just trying to learn everything we can with the little time we have left! L
Also sorry for any grammar/spelling error in the post, I poured over the Dent fourm the entire night (why did they remove the search function??)

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Ok, Let me get another thing straight....

You have to pay to go to dental residency??

MaybeDent said:

Ok, Let me get another thing straight....

You have to pay to go to dental residency??

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For many of them.

MaybeDent said:

Ok, Let me get another thing straight....

You have to pay to go to dental residency??

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LOL. Some grad programs will cost you $200K on top of dental school. Does that change your mind?

I have read about the trend, know there are only a couple of program that allows for it. However here are the problems...

1st. It takes 2-4 extra year from the MD side (got to do the whole dental school, where as DDS doesnt have to go med or only 2 years)
2nd. Only a few program does it
3rd. Since only a few program does it, it is not in the match system (no couple match). Thus make it essentally impossible for us to hope for residency in same area.

.

That is some good information. I got a few more questions.

1. How does dent school perceive those of us that switched from med to dent?
2. What is "5. Listen to the Bob Dylan song "The Times They Are A'Changin'" --> dentistry is, economically speaking, where medicine was 25 years ago. History is going to repeat itself real soon. For a sneak peak, look at medicine circa 1994 - present."

Med paid extremely well 25 years ago... so does that mean economically dent is peaking right now?

.

cyrano said:

-Do a 4 year OMFS program and become an oral surgeon. They pay you, but not that much. OR..... Do a 6 year OMFS program and get more comprehensive trauma training and learn some more complex procedures. You get your MD. They also pay you, but not much.

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The on-the-job training for 4 and 6 year surgeons is identical. Both do four years of surgical training. The six year programs also do two years of medical school. In many cases, you have to pay for those two years out of pocket.

hajibandeh said:

How much do oral-max surgeons make? Do they own their own practice usually?
see the Bureau of Labor statistics data (which is not necessarily representative, but authoritative nonetheless:
http://www.bls.gov/oes/2008/may/oes291022.htm


How competitive is it?/How high in your class do you have to be to get in?
Count on being in the top 5% of your class to match in an omfs spot.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=499293&highlight=OMFS+Competitive

What does the future of dentistry look like, particularly in terms of the government, because that’s one of the main unknowns that we are afraid of (i.e. the 5% tax on elective surgeries that could have passed)?
HCR will have big implications if it is passed, and will likely include mid-level practioners (ADHP's, DHAT's, dental therapists)

How will interview committees view our clearly pre-med resumes?
i'd worry more about what dental school are going to think. it's going to show through your experiences. should you get an interview, they may ask, "what is your motivation for going into dentistry" and you will not be able to honestly answer with "it has been my goal for a long time" or "i have been interested since i was <insert arbitrary age>".


What are the top dental schools and how competitive are they?
despite the silliness you will undoubtedly read on these forums, dental schools are not ranked. All US dental schools are accredited by the ADA, and it is indeed true that you can specialize coming from any school. sure, some schools have different philosophies and techinques in their pedagogy (e.g. Classes with med students/dentistry as a branch of medicine/Pass-Fail cirriculums/Ivy vs Non-Ivy) but they are fundamentally the same. Cost and choice of city should be your #1 concern.


He has developed hand eye skills via research, I currently don’t have it documented, how big of a handicap would this be?
I'm going to speculate that your fiance has maybe plated cells and stained plates for his research, and that doesn't necesarily indicate "skills" (assuming that is the extent of his work). do either of you play instruments? crafts? that's money right there.


here comes the cliche (and i won't be the last to say this): find out what you ENJOY, not which route has the best hours and pay

EDIT: Btw, i am married, my wife is applying for law school as i am applying for dental school, so i do understand your situation to an extent. just so you don't think i came off as a complete jerk

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What are you talking about?
A majority are still ranked

DrReo said:

What are you talking about?
A majority are still ranked

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The only 'rankings' that exist for dental schools are peoples' opinions on this forum. US News and World Reports, Princeton Review, and other official listings have no such category for dental schools. If a dental school is affilitated with a medical school (e.g. Columbia, Harvard), then yes, the medical school may have a ranking, but this doesn't reflect the ranking (And most importantly the quality) of a dental school.